How dark is too dark?

[Greg]

Well, you wouldn't like what I'm working on. People sold into the sex trade, governments lying to their people, and good guys losing in the end.

[Patrick]

There's a reason the default ending is a happy one.

We generally want to feel satisfied at the end of a story. Suffering along the way make the happy ending feel more valuable, because it was earned, a price was paid.

You can have a sad but satisfying end, where the hero loses, but something is accomplished. this is harder to pull off, but it can be done, and done well.

I know I have no interest in reading a book that subjects the protagonist to horrible suffering and then kills him off anyway and nothing good comes of it.

"Life sucks, then you die" has never been a very successful elevator pitch.

[Epigoni]

the books I've considered dark were more sad than anything else. I think its the lack of hope that does me in, like The Magician King, or Time Travelers Wife. Those messed me up, but I had no problem with game of thrones (2 books in).

[Valerie]

Robb, I do have to agree with you there.

[Robb]

Ken wrote: "Robb wrote: "For me there is no "too dark."
But there is frivolously dark.

That line's a keeper.

"Dark" ought to be a part of the story: have a reason, show its consequences, have the right fit o..."

The more productive value of a "life sucks" story, I think, is to build empathy. If the human condition is overall a painful and unhappy one, it means more when we try to comfort those around us, and it also means maybe we need to think a little more before we judge people. Or, in the case of some apocalyptic stories, and maybe tragedies in general, is "it doesn't have to end up this way, but it will if we just let things run on autopilot."

The flipside of happy endings is that they often support a just world hypothesis. It discounts the actual chaos and injustice that is a part of real life and gives us the feeling that "everything will be alright" because "there's a plan" and all that.
These are the kinds of things people want to hear, but sometimes it's good for people to encounter something closer to the truth. And the truth may not be all pain and suffering, but there's definitely a lot there and endings are never really tied up neatly.
Too much positivity is an opiate that numbs us to the pain of others and often to our own problems.

[carol. , Senor Crabbypants]

Very nicely said, Robb.

[malrubius]

[Oops...realized this might be a spoiler. Sorry. Deleted]

[Patrick]

Robb wrote: "Ken wrote: "Robb wrote: "For me there is no "too dark."
But there is frivolously dark.

That line's a keeper.

"Dark" ought to be a part of the story: have a reason, show its consequences, have the..."

The more productive value of a "life sucks" story, I think, is to build empathy. If the human condition is overall a painful and unhappy one, it means more when we try to comfort those around us, and it also means maybe we need to think a little more before we judge people. Or, in the case of some apocalyptic stories, and maybe tragedies in general, is "it doesn't have to end up this way, but it will if we just let things run on autopilot."

The flipside of happy endings is that they often support a just world hypothesis. It discounts the actual chaos and injustice that is a part of real life and gives us the feeling that "everything will be alright" because "there's a plan" and all that.
These are the kinds of things people want to hear, but sometimes it's good for people to encounter something closer to the truth. And the truth may not be all pain and suffering, but there's definitely a lot there and endings are never really tied up neatly.
Too much positivity is an opiate that numbs us to the pain of others and often to our own problems.


I don't need dark to build my empathy. I don't think most of us do.

I've lived poverty, unemployment, the marines and now 14 years as a paramedic. I'm all set with the dark reality of life. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. I don't need the bleak rubbed in my face in my entertainment. I'll be back to it soon enough.

As the Dread Pirate Roberts so wisely said, "Life is pain. Anybody who says different is selling something."

The corollary of which is, sometimes, we just want to be sold something.

[carol. , Senor Crabbypants]

I'd disagree, Patrick. I think 'dark' in the sense Robb seems to be using it is necessary for many of us. It goes back to the essence of what storytelling does. It is the Greek tragedy to balance the comedy.

While it certainly sounds like the stories that examine the human condition "is overall a painful and unhappy one" are not to your taste, it doesn't mean they don't have value for others. I too work in the health field (cancer nurse) and I run into experiences all the time that emphasize this message. My choice of reading material tends to reflect the fact that I do not need that kind of pathos in my escape/entertainment/intellectual challenges. But it doesn't mean I don't occasionally enjoy it, or looking at a spin on it in another direction doesn't bring something to me. Joe Abercrombie's Glodka character is a prime example of that--the skill in creating such a flawed but so-very-human person was amazing, and reminds me that there are deep shades to the shades-of-grey philosophy. My best reads grab that and weave it into a story that includes the "light" things as well such as humor, love, beauty.

[Robb]

Patrick wrote: "Robb wrote: "Ken wrote: "Robb wrote: "For me there is no "too dark."
But there is frivolously dark.

That line's a keeper.

"Dark" ought to be a part of the story: have a reason, show its consequen..."

But keep in mind one of the reasons you have empathy on your own is through painful experiences.

There are some studies that suggest "happier" people (always a problematic thing to measure, but in this case the self-assessed definition makes sense) are less empathetic and it's long been found that poorer people are more likely to tip waiters and waitresses well. Some people are effectively isolated from pain, either in sheltered youth or growing comfortable as adults and forgetting.

A lot of times we simply do not think about people who have it worse than us or who have it bad in a different way, and literature is one way for us to experience that.

[Patrick]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be adversity that needs to be overcome.

But the tragedy porn that gets accolades reminds me of people who only like a band before they're successful. It's somehow a badge of honor to like a book that ends in tragedy and a happy ending is just lame and mainstream.

Most people since the dawn of time live a struggle, and when we get a free moment for entertainment, we want a story that makes us feel better.

I don't speak for everybody. If you like a hero who struggles through life's slings and arrow only to fail and die cold and alone, that's fine and I wish you the best. I don't care for that. I'll see enough of it, live enough of it. I want to see struggle rewarded in my daydreaming.

To pull an example, I know George R R Martin's books are well written, but I gave up when I kept running out of people to root for. If I want a fascinating story of war and betrayal and tangled threads and wasted lives, I can read about the actual War of the Roses. If I'm reading a made up story for pleasure, I want to see justice done.

Again, I'm not speaking for everybody, just for me.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Patrick wrote: "I'm not saying there shouldn't be adversity that needs to be overcome.

But the tragedy porn that gets accolades reminds me of people who only like a band before they're successful. It's somehow a badge of honor to like a book that ends in tragedy and a happy ending is just lame and mainstream.

Most people since the dawn of time live a struggle, and when we get a free moment for entertainment, we want a story that makes us feel better.

I don't speak for everybody. If you like a hero who struggles through life's slings and arrow only to fail and die cold and alone, that's fine and I wish you the best. I don't care for that. I'll see enough of it, live enough of it. I want to see struggle rewarded in my daydreaming.

To pull an example, I know George R R Martin's books are well written, but I gave up when I kept running out of people to root for. If I want a fascinating story of war and betrayal and tangled threads and wasted lives, I can read about the actual War of the Roses. If I'm reading a made up story for pleasure, I want to see justice done.

Again, I'm not speaking for everybody, just for me. "

QUOTED FOR TRUTH

[Robb]

Zayne wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Dark fantasy stories are enjoyed by many, look no farther than A Song of Ice and Fire. I list a dark fantasy as a fantasy where the hero dies in the end, and/or the antagonistic situ..."

Yeah, a hero's death doesn't necessarily make it dark, and really it's the difference in the details that makes darkness. For example "I am Legend" (view spoiler)[ the book is considered darker than the film versions because the hero dies a martyr in the films but an unknowing villain in the books (hide spoiler)].

I think when there is never a light at the end of the tunnel, we can end up at a point where darkness is blunted. Darkness needs hope in order to thrive... and in most cases, there should be some sense that things *could* have gone differently (even if it's outside the hero's control).

[Keith]

Good question, Thomas. And some very thought-provoking answers.
It would seem that there are many factors to consider: the strength of the characters, plot, writing, etc. If any of these are lacking then the 'darkness' becomes harder to bear. The length of a book will make a big difference on the 'darkness' factor too, for sometimes all the grief, blood, depression and death can become an indulgence rather than a necessity, and not every reader can/will tolerate such 'dark' matters for too long. It also largely depends on what influences the individual reader brings to the book and what they hope to take away from it. The author can only accomplish so much, the rest is up to us, and we won't know how 'dark' we will find the book until we experience it in our own way.
Personally, I can handle and enjoy the likes of The Grapes Of Wrath and Prince Of Thorns, but (and I know this is bizarre) I found some of Neil Gaiman's Fragile Things to be unnecessarily vulgar enough for me to never read one of his books again.

[Robin P]

The Grapes of Wrath is certainly grim but there are redeeming points of family and generosity and a (probably unrealistic) kind of utopia when the poor people run their own camp. My main reaction to that book was astonishment at how true it still is today, and a sort of righteous anger that made me want to get more involved.

[Robb]

Genre also plays some part. If what you are reading is horror, then darkness is expected and a happy ending, which should never be assured, amounts to survival. Same with dark fantasy and apocalyptic sci-fi and other inherently dark genres. The reader should expect darkness, should even expect that evil can win.

I could see how it might irk someone when they're reading a more conventional elves & pixies fantasy that ends with a Holocaust analogy.

[Carl]

I'm of the opinion that no fantasy I read is too dark. Of course, I'm also a big fan of horror and split my time writing horror and fantasy.

[Erin *Proud Book Hoarder*]

Dark and depressing doesn't bother me if done right, but I don't like tragedies in endings and unfair situations as the ending. I like dark series or stand-a-lones with happy endings for the main, as weird as that sounds.

[Andrew]

Erin, I agree with you about unfair endings. Tragedies can be effective, if they make narrative sense and don't cheat the reader with some twist or turn of events that comes out of nowhere.

[Greg]

I think you can go 110% dark if you're throwing a bit of humor in there as well.

But then that begs the question as to whether it's even dark at all.

[Erin *Proud Book Hoarder*]

Greg wrote: "I think you can go 110% dark if you're throwing a bit of humor in there as well.

But then that begs the question as to whether it's even dark at all."

Well, even the worst in life can have a twisted ironic humor. I think a little humor helps break up the monotony and make the other stuff - such as tragedy or whatever happens - more realistic, give it more 'oomph' when it's there.

[Benjamin]

No such thing as too dark. Just cant be dark for the sake of being dark. Has to be a reason for it all.

For those complaining about cheap shock, I know the feeling but sometimes theres no avoiding it. Just read Infamous Lady: The True Story of Countess Erzsebet Bathory and youll know what Im talking about.