Science Fiction Aficionados discussion
Authors
>
Philip K. Dick
Micah wrote: "Bill wrote: "We shall have to agree to differ - apart from the basic idea,most of the movies bear little resemblance to the stories(which is why they've been successful!)..."Actually I was thinki..."
I have to agree, A Scanner Darkly was the adaptation that came closest to the book.
It also bothered me a lot they used a newsreel instead of The Grasshopper Lies Heavy as a book, but I get they were aiming at converting the book within a book to a film within a film. It just doesn't fly very well. It would have been better had they made it a banned mini-series or movie. Or even better, given the time period a serial. I think for a television audience, unfortunately, they would have had to choose a more transparent name for it. Unless you'd read the book, The Grasshopper Lies Heavy would just be confusing. I know the first time I read the book in my lat teens it was confusing.
Bill and Micah,One has to walk into a movie with the mindset that Hollywood is going to change things--the visual and audio art of film is a different medium than the printed word--and hope for the best. I think you both mentioned Blade Runner, in my opinion the best sci-fi movie ever made. I was antsy when I went to see it--I walked out ecstatic. The dark dystopian visuals emphasized the core of PDK's story.
Part of the problem is that some PDK works were short stories or novellas, not full novels. Hollywood has to augment in that case--only the basic theme can be retained. Total Recall (the original one) is an example. It was OK, but that augmentation was a wee bit hokey at times.
In all of this, I often wonder what PDK would have said about the movies made from his stories. Like Edgar Rice Burroughs' relationship to Star Wars, he might feel that he'd rather enjoy his legacy's genesis in his writing, not Hollywood movies. Because books are my life, I certainly think that way. Of course, no one in Hollywood has offered me a contract, so it's easy to say that. ;-)
r/Steve
I agree Steve. This is why I always try to read the book AFTER. I remember being really upset after watching the miniseries NOBLE HOUSE based on the John Clavell book. Of course, in that case, it was an incidence of omitting rather than adding as Clavell's novels are so LARGE. I thought they left out an integral character. Apparently, the producers did not.
Steven wrote: "Bill and Micah,One has to walk into a movie with the mindset that Hollywood is going to change things--the visual and audio art of film is a different medium than the printed word--and hope for th..."
Yeah, I hear that arguement all the time but I can think of several films that translated books to film successfully without making fundamental changes.
A Clockwork Orange for example, the only major change they made in the movie was to leave off the last chapter of the book. However when the movie was made, the American version of the book also did the same thing.
Slaughterhouse Five is another. It's a perfect transferal of Vonnegut's classic to film.
And then we have cases like Throne of Blood and Ran, Kurosawa's reimaginings of Shakespeare's Macbeth and King Lear (respectively), set in samurai times. Kurosawa made a lot of changes to the originals, obviously, but what he did not do was change the fundamental dynamics of the stories. He didn't mess around with the personalities and motivations of the characters (something that Peter Jackson did do in his LotR movies).
I just think movie and TV producers/directors aren't really all that interested in bringing the original work to screne. They see the source material more as a marketing tool and a storyline springboard for doing whatever they want to do themselves. They're more like covers of popular songs, something you put your own stamp on.
The trouble I have with that is I really DO want to see faithful translations to screen. Minor changes to plot, cutting some stuff out, adding things to help make it tie together are all fine. But at the very least I want the fundamental plot and character motivations to be preserved.
On that account what I saw of this show wasn't too horrible, but some of their choices, I thought, undermined some of the best parts of the book.
Micah,Sometimes the differences between media is just too high a hurdle to jump over. Introspection (inner dialogue) is difficult in a movie, and it's hard to get into a character's mind even if you have a great actor like Nicholson using body language expertly.
That said, I'm with you. I cringed at the promos for the movie I, Robot, for example, but if I hadn't adopted that mindset, I would have completely wasted my money. The examples you give are perfect ones showing that Hollywood can stick to the story, though.
r/Steve
Kirsten,You bring up an interesting point: is it easier to stick to the book in a series? A movie is only about two hours long; a series can be much longer. We still have the problem of the different media, though.
I think introspective books are hard to bring to the silver screen. Even if a book has a lot of action, it generally isn't continuous and is interrupted with periods of introspection. Books written in the first person are probably the most difficult in this respect--even the action is introspective!
r/Steve
Micah wrote: "Steven wrote: "Bill and Micah,One has to walk into a movie with the mindset that Hollywood is going to change things--the visual and audio art of film is a different medium than the printed word--..."
How about the edition of The Scarlet Letter with a happy ending?
Steven wrote: "Kirsten,You bring up an interesting point: is it easier to stick to the book in a series? A movie is only about two hours long; a series can be much longer. We still have the problem of the differ..."
People say the Game of Thrones series is very close to the books. I think it depends on the books. PKD's stuff are fairly short. Wouldn't they be served better as a movie? Whereas James Clavell, Victor Hugo, etc, maybe do better as a series. Also, if you're covering a series of books like the new Expanse series, it'd be better as a series.
I think you should always expect the worst when watching a dramatization of a book you like. That way, if they do a good job, you can be pleasantly surprised.
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "PKD's stuff are fairly short. Wouldn't they be served better as a movie?..."Actually the problem with PKD's works are not the length, but their density of ideas. And, as alluded to by Steven, their reliance on inner dialog...or at least the mental state of the characters if not actual mental dialog.
I think his works have been used so much because they are relatively easy to translate as action/chase movies.
A great example of that is the low budget film Imposter, based on a short story of the same name, and staring Gary Senise. I got the DVD from Netflix once and in the Etras section they had a 45 minute version of the film that was used as a fund raising tool (shown to investors).
Well, that cut down version of the film was almost exactly PKD's short story (one twist at the end was changed, which was kind of nice actually because even people familiar with the story would be surprised by it, and it was very much like something PKD would do anyway). If that's all the film had been it would have been the very best adaptaion of one of his books.
The long version? It was simply the 45 minute movie padded out with chase and actions scenes, which actually kind of killed the movie.
Mod
Kubrick took a disturbing scene in the novel where Alex drugs and rapes two 10-year-olds and turned the scene into a zany fast-motion sex romp with two ladies who are considerably older. that was a decision that was understandable (commercial audience appeal etc) but also despicable (totally ruining the whole point of that scene so that the audience doesn't get too disgusted by Alex). later, he adds "comedic" sexual elements to another rape scene and caricatures the couple in that scene to make things easier for that audience. understandable but still terrible changes that alter key elements of the source material.
My mom thought the book was much more horrifying than the movie.
This conversation made me think of an example where changes in an original story when brought to film are actually welcome. In the case of The Walking Dead comic book being translated to television, there have been a lot of changes made. But in this case, the comic book is still ongoing and the TV series is always a couple of years behind. The changes just become interesting and it means you can read the book and watch the series without ruining the experience of either one. It helps a lot that Robert Kirkman is responsible for plotting both. We never have to think one is wrecking the other because they stem from the same creative source.I think this can lead us to a better acceptance of a different creator making a film or series that diverges from the original story. They really are two different creations, even if one is inspired by or based on the other.
I really like the Amazon series. I haven't finished yet. I get the frustration with the change from the book to the film thing, but I still like it. The production is excellent. I think they brought the "reality" to life. It is chilling and terrifying and very relevant NOW. I have found PKD a challenge to read. Maybe I need to visit some of his short stories. But I also think his books require a second reading. I read The Man in the High Castle and frankly when I finished, I asked myself "what the fuck did I just read". I did the same with Martian Time-Slip. But I am not put off at all.
I definitely think the TV series is in some ways better (and some ways worse) than the novel. But that's the way I've found most adaptions of Dick's stories to screen.
Jennifer wrote: "I really like the Amazon series. I haven't finished yet. I get the frustration with the change from the book to the film thing, but I still like it. The production is excellent. I think they brough..."I think you should have that, "what the fuck did I just read," feeling after reading most of his books. It pretty much comes with the territory. If you're interested in having more of a point of reference as you're reading, the best thing to do is read more of his books and maybe a biography or two because he tends to pull things from his real life, like the jewelry making in The Man In The a High Castle. I've read four of them now, the ones by Lawrence Sutin, Greg Rickman, Paul Williams and, his wife, Anne R. Dick. Probably my favorites were the Rickman and the one by Ann R. Dick, but the Sutin is probably the more objective one. He was married to Ann when he wrote The Man In The a high Castle.
David,Inre your Walking Dead comments, it can go both ways. I didn't like Gone Girl as a book, and I didn't like it as a movie. Both book and screenplay were written by the same person. I'll admit the movie followed the book, though, as much as can be expected in condensing a book into a couple of hours.
My father used to say a movie based on a book is like reading the Readers' Digest condensed version (do they still make those?).
Jennifer,
PDK was one weird dude. Castle won a Hugo, though, I believe, so he was recognized before his death. It just takes Hollywood a wee bit to catch up. Consider the Bourne movies--nothing like the books, but as Paul says, they are in some ways better. That last line in #2: "You're looking tired, Pam. You should get some rest." That's priceless!
All, it's probably best to always be vigilant when Hollywood says they're basing a movie on a book but also maintain an open mind.
r/Steve
Ironically, after reading The Man in the High Castle, I found several of his books and some of his short story collections in my used bookstore and purchased them all. And I do keep telling myself to pick up another and just read it.
Jennifer wrote: "I did the same with Martian Time-Slip."I've read all his SF books (minus one collaboration that I can't find), and I found Martian Time-Slip to be his most depressing book. At the time I read it it seemed really very, very dark. I've avoided re-reading it since then. Not sure if that was entirely the book's fault or if I was in one of my dark moods at the time.
But generally I find myself going "Wow...WTF did I just read? That was pretty awsome!"
I like the WTF reaction.
Micah wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I did the same with Martian Time-Slip."I've read all his SF books (minus one collaboration that I can't find), and I found Martian Time-Slip to be his most depressing book. At th..."
Micah, I'm curious which collaboration you couldn't find?
David wrote: "Micah, I'm curious which collaboration you couldn't find?"The Ganymede Takeover, written with Ray Nelson.
I can get crappy old used copies of it online, but I really don't like doing that. Used "Very Good" conditioned copies are starting at like $17 (incl. shipping) and go rapidly up from there. That's way too much for an old paperback.
@ Micah,If you have an used bookstore in your area, they're often a better source because many of their owners won't accept books in bad condition and give the seller so little (people often bring books "in bulk") that the old books are inexpensive. I completed my collection of Benford's Galactic Center novels that way, for example. Besides, these shops are so much fun and you can meet some characters that way. (In Silicon Slummin'...and Just Gettin' By, I gave myself a cameo as an owner of one of these unique places.) Admittedly, they might be more prevalent in urban areas, but I even found some in Madrid and Dublin not too long ago.
$17+ is a wee bit outside my budget too.
r/Steve
Micah wrote: "David wrote: "Micah, I'm curious which collaboration you couldn't find?"The Ganymede Takeover, written with Ray Nelson.
I can get crappy old used copies of it online, but I really don't like doi..."
I ended up going for the Severn House hardcover for that reason many years ago. I think I paid about $15 for it.
I got curious and checked out Abebooks.com. There's currently an Ace reprint in VG+ condition for $3.50 and a near fine Ace first printing for $10.00. Not bad. They've also got a pretty decent copy of the Severn House hardcover for $20.00.
David wrote: "I ended up going for the Severn House hardcover for that reason many years ago..."I've always disliked hardcover. Takes up way too much shelf space (and I'm overflowing already!).
I've pretty much moved to all eBooks now.
Steven wrote: "If you have an used bookstore in your area..."Yeah, I do. They almost never have any PKD other than first edition. They have/had a copy of one of his paperback novels, first edition...one of those paperback books where there are two novels in one. Ancient thing from back in the early '60s. They had it in a plastic sleeve and were charging like $35 or more for it. Looked fragile as hell.
The only hardback I've got of PKD is The Galactic Pot Healer. It's a first edition given to me by a friend. Pretty slim volume so it's not a problem. But I also have a trade paperback version of that book which is what I'd actually read.
(Just checked my local used store's online shop...$34.70 for a Used-Good quality copy.)
Micah,Good to know. It works sometimes, though. Part of the fun is just looking, like I said, and I generally come away with something. It's one of the places I go shopping without looking for anything in particular--no lists.
(That should have been "a used bookstore" by the way--I have to be more careful about editing my comments.)
Other places one might look are Ebay etc. Bidding tends to increase prices, though, when you find rare items.
I'll have to confess that my familiarity with Dick came from sci-fi zines and my brother's sci-fi collection, the latter getting me hooked when I was very young. I can't claim to have read everything he ever wrote. I also haven't read his biographies, just sketches of his life here and there. The 1963 Hugo winner High Castle hit at the end of that period of my childhood, as a matter of fact. I don't understand the polemic in NYC about advertising the movie. Maybe PC taken to the extreme? It's alternative history, people!
r/Steve
When I found mine ,it looked like someone just got rid of their PKD collection. I purchased them all. For not very much. Now I am going to have to see exactly what I have...
Sometimes you get lucky on Ebay too. A few years ago I came across a listing for a lot of 35 PKD books. The seller didn't understand how important the picture can be. There were two pics looking into the box of books, showing very few of them. The description just listed the books. I figured out four or five had to be PBO Ace doubles. There were the five trade paperbacks published by Bluejay books with portrait covers. The complete collected stories from Citadel Press. (4 turned out to be 1st printings). There was one of the books written by Greg Rickman, a couple of critical books on his work and about a dozen trades published by Vintage. I estimated the collection somewhere between $300 and $400. The auction started at $85. I was the only bidder. I kept all the PBOs, Bluejays, Collected stories, Rickman and critical works. I sold the rest on Ebay for about $60 and ended up with a great PKD collection.
Micah,Just to revisit your comment about hardcovers, my Kindle has saved my poor sagging bookshelves. I always ask for ebooks, even when I review, but some publishers send hardcovers. They leave my house as donations, either to libraries or book sales at the schools, except for the ARCs, which I toss. (I'd donate those too, but I'm not sure about the legal implications.)
David,
That was a lucky find on Ebay. I have to start visiting the site more (not that I need any more paper books--see above).
r/Steve
Steven wrote: "except for the ARCs, which I toss. (I'd donate those too, but I'm not sure about the legal implications.)"I've seen plenty of them in my local used bookstore.......not that this means there's no legal implication!
Micah,I don't have one at hand right now, but I think they come with a warning--otherwise, I wouldn't have known. I've seen some at charity book sales too. Maybe something no one enforces?
r/Steve
Steven wrote: "Micah,Just to revisit your comment about hardcovers, my Kindle has saved my poor sagging bookshelves. I always ask for ebooks, even when I review, but some publishers send hardcovers. They leave m..."
As far as I know there's nothing wrong with selling an ARC. The major dealers in Science Fiction do it all the time. I own some I've purchased over the years. For a while in the 90's ARCs became very desirable to collectors because they precede a first printing of a book. They're essentially the first publication of it. I don't think they are as sought after today as they were then, but certain ARCs still bring good prices. I'm thinking of one for Stephenson's Snow Crash I once owned. I think I got around $100 for it. I think that one would still sell at a decent price to the right collector. A modern one I'm sure would go for a lot would be Ann Leckie's Ancillary Justice because the first printing was a PBO and it was a very low print run. The first edition paperback runs in the $100 range and I could see the ARC going that high or higher.
I want to throw in my 2 cents having just finished the Amazon series. The Man in the High Castle was probably my favorite PKD work so I wasn't sure what to expect. I'd agree with the earlier comments that making the Grasshopper Lies Heavy into a film reel was a mistake. Beyond that, the changes they made to the plot and the characters weren't bad. It told a mostly coherent story and maintained a compelling sense of drama. The additions felt true to PKD's style.A couple other thoughts based on previous comments:
I, Robot was one of those cases where it was ok to wildly diverge from the book. You've got a series of really short stories based on a centralized theme (the law of robotics) and it makes sense to write a new story following the same format. It probably could have been better but I wouldn't call it awful.
If you want to see an example of going off track and totally ruining the source material, take a look at I Am Legend. The Hollywood Ending they slapped on there was insulting.
Ok, enough picking on Will Smith.
I'd also agree with the sentiment that Scanner Darkly was a very well done PKD adaptation. It really creeped me out when I saw it.
Bladerunner, on the other hand, I thought was awful. But I doubt very many people out there will agree to that.
Mike,I believe that I said that I, Robot and Bladerunner were both excellent movies that greatly expanded on or greatly differed from the books. The first was a sci-fi shoot-em-up completely orthogonal to Asimov's cerebral plots. The second was the story of a futuristic Sam Spade (was he also an android?). The movies were entertaining, though, and perhaps introduced a few people to these classic sci-fi authors.
Because you picked on Will Smith, let me pick on Harrison Ford. His "suffering SOB" acting was honed to perfection in Bladerunner, but Han Solo left me cold (yeah, I know, that's blasphemy). In fact, most of Star Wars left me cold. It's basically a fantasy series with gee-whiz special effects (Harry Potter in space--the light sabers are on a par with the bows and arrows in the Hunger Games). Plot elements and creature names are stolen from Edgar Rice Burroughs (John Carter on Mars tales--the white apes in the ice caves, for example) and Asimov (Lukas combined the Mule and the First Foundation--but remember Asimov had the Second Foundation, that had more of the mental powers Lukas attributes to his evil Empire, and that was good!). I've often thought these authors' estates were derelict in not going after old George and his company for plagiarism, especially Burroughs', but maybe money was paid on the sly?
I'm assuming that Asimov and Burroughs have estates (not clear), but maybe old PKD didn't?
r/Steve
Mike,BTW, After Earth was the worst Will Smith sci-fi movie. His record is far worse than Matt Damon's, for example.
r/Steve
Steven wrote: "Mike,I believe that I said that I, Robot and Bladerunner were both excellent movies that greatly expanded on or greatly differed from the books. The first was a sci-fi shoot-em-up completely ortho..."
I'm not sure what you were getting at about not having estates. The Burroughs estate, from what I've seen is very active and the PKD estate, at this point, is run by his children. They're actively involved in approving anything done from his source material and you can usually find them in the credits. If you're referring to Bladerunner, PKD was in the loop himself until he died to some degree. He got to see outtakes from the movie and loved what he saw of it. Here's the letter he wrote after seeing something on TV with Harrison Ford before the movie came out. I get the feeling he was a lot less concerned than we are about them following the book exactly. http://screencrush.com/philip-k-dick-...
I have to say, it's great to find an SF fan who feels the same way about Star Wars I do. I've been calling these movies fantasy for years. The only one of the movies I liked at all was the first one, but even at 15 or 16 when I saw it, I came out thinking it was retro for SF, more like what I'd read of 40's science fiction or the movies from the 50's. By that time I'd graduated to reading the New Wave authors and other more modern science fiction books and it seemed silly by comparison. And the series really is a hodgepodge of rip-offs from a lot of old material. Even Tatooine reminded me of Dune, but I suppose you could probably call some of this homage, if only it had been done better.
David,I didn't say they didn't have estates, but I wondered if they ever went after Lukas. Yeah, Tatooine is reminiscent of Dune, so count that as another rip-off. The "jazz band" in the thugs bar there is priceless and original, though, so there are some redeeming qualities. Freezing Han Solo and the teddy-bear warriors rank high on my list too. OK, let's agree to write it all off as an homage with the added benefit of making tons of money!
On the other hand, Hollywood did a terrible job of bringing John Carter to the silver screen...sigh....
r/Steve
I believe Lucas said he was inspired by the old time serials.
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "I believe Lucas said he was inspired by the old time serials."Old time serials, comic books, Dune, Joseph Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces, Arthurian romances, various world religions, Kurosawa's samurai tales (especially The Hidden Fortress)...There are a lot of influences in SW.
Oh, yeah, my dad really liked the Hidden Fortress. He always said you can really see the similarities. Even down to characters like C3PO and R2D2.
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Oh, yeah, my dad really liked the Hidden Fortress. He always said you can really see the similarities. Even down to characters like C3PO and R2D2."The inspiration for R2D2 was Huey, Dewey and Louie from the movie Silent Running, one of my favorite SF movies from that period. I'll have to check out The Hidden Fortress.
Mod
it really is amazing how many similarities there are between the two films. especially fun is seeing the direct parallel between C3PO and R2D2 and the two peasants in Hidden Fortress. watching Hidden Fortress after Star Wars gave me so many moments of deju vu.
I'd call the notion that jedi mind powers were a rip off of the Foundation novels a huge stretch. Telekinetic powers are far from being a concept unique to Asimov. Especially given that there's nothing akin to psychohistory in Star Wars. I won't deny the other influences that have been listed.
David wrote: "Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Oh, yeah, my dad really liked the Hidden Fortress. He always said you can really see the similarities. Even down to characters like C3PO and R2D2."..."I think they're both. The look of the droids are a direct descent from Silent Running, but the characters are from Hidden Fortress.
comparing The Man in the High Castle on the page and screen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNwd...
I'm sorry if this has already been posted, but I stumbled on this article about Philip K Dick:http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/p...
All,Considering that The Man in the High Castle won the 1963 Hugo (long before the 2015 "puppy protests") and many of his stories were made into good sci-fi movies (a step Hollywood is currently skipping by creating movies with "original" screenplays often lacking the good plots, characterizations, and so forth of carefully crafted written sci-fi tales), he definitely stands as one of the greats.
Moreover, he's a minimalist writer in the sense that he doesn't spell things out for the reader, which allows the reader to participate in the creative process. As a contrast, I snatched up Wool yesterday (all the separate "episodes" bundled as #1 for $5); like the Martian, it's far from being minimalist and actually repetitive (perhaps because those separate "episodes" were released separately?). I'm wondering what the big deal is. It's ponderous with none of the excitement of Aldiss's Starship, say (a similar theme if you get off the dystopian/post-apocalyptic bandwagon), but I guess Wool is better than a treatise on potato farming.
I'm writing with this with my reader hat on. I'll take Phillip over any current sci-fi writers.
Loved the article corresponding to your URL, Kirsten. There was a famous short story about a weird oompah band that had become human beings' goodwill ambassadors to a galaxy controlled by ETs--got us into their "galactic union," I believe. The human hero was the tuba player. Anyone have the exact reference? (Google doesn't seem to know about it, probably because I don't have the title--it found "The Silk and the Song" reference, an influence--self-promo alert?--for my most recent novel).
r/Steve
Steven wrote: "I snatched up Wool yesterday...like the Martian...I'm wondering what the big deal is....I'm writing with this with my reader hat on. I'll take Phillip over any current sci-fi writers...."
He he. I only read the very first short story in Wool. It was OK, but I didn't see any reason for further extrapolation of that world. It didn't warrant more, IMHO. And I knew I wouldn't like The Martian just from the Look Inside sample on Amazon: the whole journal format was too self-consciously snarky for my taste.
I've never found anyone to rival PKD, and I'm sure the puppies would like to forget that his huge catalog doesn't exist since it counters their whole theme of SF being all about glorious space adventure romps back in it's golden days before all the SJWs ruined it.
PKD was a force from outside of known existence.
Thankfully, PKD was one of a kind. I don't think I could handle a whole school of literary lights writing in his style. I still feel I would've gotten more out of UBIK if I'd had some LSD.
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Thankfully, PKD was one of a kind. I don't think I could handle a whole school of literary lights writing in his style. I still feel I would've gotten more out of UBIK if I'd had some LSD."OTOH, I wouldn't mind a whole school of literary lights writing with his inventiveness and density of ideas/page. Or even his level of paranoia!
Science Fiction Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Deus Irae (other topics)The Ware Tetralogy (other topics)
Paycheck (other topics)
The Golden Man (other topics)
We Can Remember It for You Wholesale (other topics)
More...
Actually I was thinking the same thing ;D
Even Blade Runner, which I really love in its Final Cut version, makes only a passing nod at the original story. It got the look of the world right, but not much else is similar.
A Scanner Darkly is probably the closest adaptation (ignoring the embarrassingly bad Radio Free Albemuth), only it focused a bit more on the dark humor in the book than the dark, serious message.
To each their own, though.