Gone Girl
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Is this appropriate for a 13-year-old advanced reader?
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Don't think I'd want my 13-year-old to be thinking about marriage as a psychotic battle between the sexes.
Absolutely, No way!
May I suggest that there may be a little naivety being expressed here? Just thinking back to when my children were that age. I discovered after they grew up, the many thing they were doing that, even though I prided myself on be very observant, didn't realise was going on. And I was shocked at how aware they were of things that I introduced to them gradually when I thought they were ready to hear it. They already knew it!I still believe reading books, of all sorts, helps open up subjects worth discussing and gives parents the opportunity of discovering what their young teenage children are thinking or questioning. It gives us an "in" that otherwise wouldn't be there. Young teens would rather discuss any topic with their contempories, some times leading to anti-social behaviour or sexual experimentation.
Laureen wrote: "May I suggest that there may be a little naivety being expressed here? Just thinking back to when my children were that age. I discovered after they grew up, the many thing they were doing that, ev..."exactly. what do you think children do when their parents aren't watching?
Yes so instead of encouraging good behavior and proper entertainment lets all just say screw it and let out kids do whatever they want....sure Timmy since youll do it behind my back heres some porn...just go have fun...even so called smart people are proving to me this world just needs to end and the human race has devolved into crap.I dont give two flying figs if they are going to try and do it behind our backs it our jobs as parents to try and maintain decency and common sense...please if anyone here thinks a 13 year old should read this then for gods sake please dont procreate because your witless.
Paul wrote: "Yes so instead of encouraging good behavior and proper entertainment lets all just say screw it and let out kids do whatever they want....sure Timmy since youll do it behind my back heres some porn..."And I'm sure any rude and possibly aggressive behaviour your children will learn, they will probably learn it straight from you as you clearly can't debate rationally and without resorting to rude comments. Children are far smarter and more capable then you think.
I will let my 13 year old read this if she or he is mature enough, books are a good and gentle way to introduce dark themes. I think back to what I and my generation grew up with like Freddy Kruegar and Stephen King, and I've never had a violent outburst or got into trouble. I've never had any behavioural issues.
I've seen a lot of adults unable to cope with the real world because they're naive to the stress and workings of the real world, because they've been over protected.
Under the right environment and a supporting adult to teach ethics and morals, dark themes can be introduce without causing much trouble to the child.
When you also think of the books a 13 year old has to read at school from shakesphere to Lolita, this book is on the same level plain in my opinion. There are no book ratings for a reason. The imagination to bring a book to life will only be as strong as the 13 year old can handle. They will either understand it or they won't. If they don't, they'll simply get bored and move on, if they do, they get to experience dark themes gently and expand their minds.
The only type of books I wouldn't introduce them to is erotica, because sexually maturity is different kettle of fish.
So the fact that she masturbates violently with a wine bottle and talks about having her husband ejaculate onto her breasts... just a couple of examples from gone girl...doesnt count as sexually maturity?my aggressive behavior comes from the year that this thread has been running and people are STILL using the excuse of what kids do behind our back, how mature kids supposedly are or other inane nonsense. I spent YEARS working with kids at the Police department and am still flabbergasted at how little Parents understand
Paul wrote: "So the fact that she masturbates violently with a wine bottle and talks about having her husband ejaculate onto her breasts... just a couple of examples from gone girl...doesnt count as sexually ma..."And Lolita, that is about pedophile and abuse, yet the main character paints it as love, and is taught in school doesn't bother you? School teaches children to see the realism of the situation and parents should do the same with book like gone girl..
Maybe some parents are too chilled and relax and don't help their children understand the darker themes, but like I said, under the right environment and right guidance, dark themes can be introduce without any issues arising.
Peer pressure is a far bigger influence than any books can throw at them. Your kid's friend drinks alcohol, and they feel pressured to do it. That kid's friend take drugs and loses virginity before they're legal will pressure the kid to do the same. Peer pressure is what I worry about the most, not what books they read.
Blaming bad behaviour on books is naive.
Loita was never taught in mine my wifes or any of my kids school and it is also not graphic.Im not blaming books in fact books are one of the best influences you can give kids...I blame parents who are ignorant and dont realize setting these boundaries ...whether kids listen or not...is teaching them right from wrong age appropriate and not.
Peer pressure has nothing to do with this at all thats a seperate issue dealt with in a completely different way but actually still demonstrates my actual point.
You tell your kids the right thing to do and bad kids tell them the wrong thing...ok...at least you now have a dog in the fight ...you might have gotten through...not setting down limits means the peer pressure wins since the proper behavior and ground rules werent even attempted
And for god sake please stop with the Lolita references there is a HUGE difference between adult themes presented in an understated way and graphic violence, sexuality, content etc and you should know that otherwise its just some straw man argument
Peer pressure is a legitimate addition and point to this argument, to figure out the true source of bad behaviour. You went on about teens ending up in a police station, I'm pretty sure the situation is far more complicated than what books they read or didn't read, if they were readers at all.And even a really naive and innocent child can give into peer pressure. The daughter of the religion education teacher at my school (the teacher was highly religious and strict) gave into peer pressure and when she fell she fell further than anyone. I've seen kids of good and bad and strict parents give in to peer pressure. I've seen siblings who had the same teaching from their parents turn out completely different. I think balance is the best approach but I know how they turn out is so much more complicated.
And you set boundaries on other parts of your child's life, like how long they stay out, teach them chores and the value of money, on how much they play video games and watch tv. Set a boundary on how much you spoil them and ground them if they did something wrong. And more, these things will teach them right from wrong and how to deal with life.
But I don't believe in censoring books and censoring books is not the answer. It is a good teaching tool and I was never a nightmare for my parents despite being exposed to mature material because I was taught to question what I was reading and watching and was set boundary else where, there's nothing wrong with reading mature books.
And as for Lolita, it's a straw man argument just because you decide it so? I find it the opposite, it's available to read in English class when you get to secondary school, has dark and sexual themes, which makes it a legitimate point in my view.
And speaking of straw man arguments, you should never have brought up working with kids in a police station. I'm sure their reading habits are quite diverse between them, and if they were readers at all, making it a moot point. Pretty sure they're not questioned on whether they're a reader or not, and what they read, and if they were allowed to read mature books. Trying to intellectually put others down by claiming the strawman argument when you yourself are far more guilty of the strawman fallacy is called irony.
I'm basing my parental views based on my experiences and what my parents taught me and how I was raised, and it has worked. I don't see any reasons to censor books based on that.
Paul wrote: "So the fact that she masturbates violently with a wine bottle and talks about having her husband ejaculate onto her breasts... just a couple of examples from gone girl...doesnt count as sexually ma..."And I am shocked Paul that you were were involved with the Police Department at all. Your understand of children is abysmal to say the least. Stay away from my children and grand-children. They are perfectly behaved and have caused me only to be proud. They are beautiful people and very wise and I hope I had something to do with that. I allowed them to be human but they knew they had to be responsible for their mistakes unlike so many today who look around for someone else to blame.
Gone Girl is just as good as any other book, if they chose to read it. Better that a parent gets to discuss the behaviour within the novel than not.
Mayor wrote: "Laureen wrote: "May I suggest that there may be a little naivety being expressed here? Just thinking back to when my children were that age. I discovered after they grew up, the many thing they wer..."One thing I found out was they used to leave the house at night through the window when I was asleep to visit their friends down the road. My husband happened to be home a little earlier from work (he was a milkman back then) around 1am and one of the girls was sneaking back into the house and got caught.
My too kind husband said he wouldn't tell me. He was inclined to be another child as I had to take the responsibility for guiding them. Now they have their own children, I get the impression they think I did a pretty good job.
Laureen wrote: "Mayor wrote: "Laureen wrote: "May I suggest that there may be a little naivety being expressed here? Just thinking back to when my children were that age. I discovered after they grew up, the many ..."Laureen - sneaking out of windows is hardly the behaviour of a child who is obedient, respectful and responsible. It is the behaviour of a sneaky child who knows what he is doing is unacceptable.
You hVe an entirely different interpretation to me. Yes, they were testing their boundaries but they told me things that were very enlightening.One neighbour's child was brought up very strictly by a very religious mother. That child rebelled in a very unsafe way and my children were very critical. They could recognise the difference in parenting. My youngest was very scathing and said her mother was far too strict and drove the child into dangerous behaviour. I loved the way my kids felt they could tell me things and I encouraged that openness.
Laureen wrote: "You hVe an entirely different interpretation to me. Yes, they were testing their boundaries but they told me things that were very enlightening."Testing boundaries"........that's a novel way of putting it. Sneaky and disobedient is the way most people would put it. However, they're your kids not mine......
Laureen wrote: "And I am shocked Paul that you were were involved with the Police Department at all. Your understand of children is abysmal to say the least.."No please goo ahead...I worked for the police dept directly at grade and Junior high schools and I also spent MANY years as a youth soccer coach not to mention raising my own children....who never snuck out a window to get away from me...but the hundreds of hours of class time and the thousands of hours of actual time dealing with dozens of different children a day cant possibly compare with the parental skills you must have because your children feel free to tell you about all the bad things they did.
I bow to your superior skills you're a fantastic mother and the best possible representative to stand for our children...because reading adult materials instead of age appropriate things and your kids sneaking out the window prove it somehow...congrats your an inspiration.
Oh and HUUUGGGEE difference between some nut job religious right parent controlling their kids versus just wanting your kids to completely enjoy and experience childhood before they are forced to address adult content and ideas.
For the life of me I cant understand WHY it is wrong to let a child be a child as long as possible.They have their entire lives to be adults and worry about sex and violence and the myriad of adult things we are forced to face every day.
Why cant we allow children to experience the joys and heartbreaks of life at a normal rate instead of thrusting adult garbage at them to try and digest and try to emulate when they are in fact still children.
Just because books dont have official rating doesnt mean you give your kids cart blanche. Thre are still age appropriate subjects and ones that are not.
Just because some random organization didnt throw an R or X rating on something doesnt mean it is good for anyone and everyone.
Reading an explicit scene could have the same impact as seeing it could. Why is it worse to see the details of a horror movie scene than it is to read about it in grisly detail? Why is watching a sex scene worse than the detailed description of the act?
Just because an organization hasnt been given the job of conveniently placing a letter rating on a book based on their particular moral slant so you as a parent can wash your hands of having to do the work doesnt change the actual content. In fact you should be even more vigilant, saying "oh, its a book, literature is good for kids" does not cut it and its not true otherwise why not let your kids read some Tymber Dalton or other so called author that puts out Literature meant for adults?
Its because you are drawing an arbitrary line on something based on its genre...oh its erotica so thats not for children...but any other adult book listed at fiction is fine because it isnt filed as porn in your tiny little compartmentalized mind.
Its popular to spout the line about kids being so much more advanced and mature...well it seems that way because information overload does give them certain advantages but the bottom line is kids are still kids and should be allowed to be so...whats your rush? they'll be gone quick enough trust me.
As far as you know, they never snuck out or did anything bad, maybe your wife has a different story. Plenty of adults I know still hide what they got up to in their teens from their parents who sees the light shining out of their backside.Plus, pushing boundaries is a natural and healthy part of growing up and of learning independence and I would be worried if their mental growth was a bit stunted and that the child was far too oppressed if they didn’t try to do something they weren’t allowed to do. Too much boundaries and oppression can cause resentment and can cause them to push back hard.
This therapy guidance (http://therapyideas.net/teenagers.htm) believes “If parents push teenagers to fit the parents’ definitions and back them into a corner to be extremely good, I guarantee that is bad parenting.” And many more studies and family guidance believes setting too much boundaries and oppression is a bad thing.
Pushing boundaries is only a problem if it occurs too often and they get themselves into serious trouble, if it gets to the point that their relationship towards their family breakdown and it affects their work and studies. Sneaking out of your room just to see your friend is hardly the worse thing they can do, you see characters do that in cartoons and family movies, they don’t need to be exposed to mature content to get that idea into their heads. I, of course, would still give them trouble for that to try and curb how far they push back.
As far as we know, Laureen’s daughter may have only had done it once and never again after being caught.
Teens can push boundaries and still end up being a good people. Research shows most teens push boundaries, whether their parents know or not, but you don’t see most teenagers getting into trouble with the law.
And from my experiences, I certainly didn’t feel like my childhood wasn’t ruined or ended sooner just because I read or watch dark, mature themes in fiction. I still enjoyed getting up for Saturday morning cartoons, watching disney and eating cocoa pops. I wasn’t in any rush to try any of the adult things I read or watch like drinking alcohol, dressing up sexily or having sex with boys, that was just part of the story I read. I still wanted to do everything a kid did and hang out at the playground or at the pool with friends or have sleepovers with my friends while wearing my pajamas covered in cute bunnies and eating chocolate.
Forget fiction in English, the subjects you learn in history alone can be quite dark, from World War 2 and the images you see of Jewish camps to learning about King Henry VIII beheading his wife just because she didn’t give him a son certainly doesn’t damage the young students’ mind or hinder their childhood.
And you really should stop assuming things, like not allowing my child to read erotica, it’s not an arbitrary line drawn on by some whim for me why I would not encourage that genre to a 13 year old. Is far greater issue than “it’s just porn”, that’s why I won’t let them read it.
With books like fifty shades of grey misrepresenting S&M and bondage, and other books showing abuse as a turn on is the reason why I would keep it away from a 13 year. I rather their first crush be on a boy band member not some billionaire who likes to abuse their partner and the partner likes it.
Plus, erotica is designed to instigate lustful and sexual feelings, but violent and mature fictions isn’t there to instigate violent feelings but to tell a story. Erotica has a different design and style and a totally different goal on how to make the readers react and feel, than compared to other mature genres. The impact is quite different. I've never wanted to or had the impulse to run out of my house and smash someone's head in after reading a mature horror/crime novel, whether as a young teen or now as an adult, but erotica, well not to be crude, but it can do what it's designed for and that's a whole different story.
Can you not make an argument about your beliefs without resorting to offhand, snide, juvenile comments about your oppositions? Are you trying to intimidate your opposition into submission? Am I supposed to really believe that you were a responsible adult and watched over children when you can’t act like an adult and put your points across maturely?
There are many successful parenting approaches to churning out good people, yay yours worked for you, mine (well my parents’) worked for me. Get over it, your way is not the only way.
Nuran wrote: "As far as you know, they never snuck out or did anything bad, maybe your wife has a different story. Plenty of adults I know still hide what they got up to in their teens from their parents who see..."Thank goodness there is one person on this site who isn't intent on twisting my words. Thank you Nuran?
My oldest daughter was the one who crept out of the window to see her friend. A girl school friend whose mother was separated from her father and this friend was the one encouraging my daughter. That is testing boundaries. I feel sorry for all those who don't understand it is better for this testing of boundaries to happen when their parent/s still have them under their roof and can talk to them in a way that is not treating them like unintelligent humans but as intelligent young humans inexperienced with the hazards of life. They will be more responsive to advice that way than if you hold threats over them or a big stick. That was my experience in raising my kids and they all turned out beautiful people. I believed in talking to them, not managing them.
However, like Nuran says, each to their own so long as their children grow up happy, healthy and safe.
P.S. I would never classify my children as "sneaky". That is an insulting term. Much like calling a child "bad". That is psychological abuse in my opinion.
You people are funny. Paul is on one extreme end of the spectrum and Laureen is on the far end opposite. Two extremes - neither of which are appropriate. Laureen - get a clue. Maybe 16 or 17 would be a "good" age to read this book, but 13 - no. Just no. It is laziness on the part of parents who just say "oh, well, they'll do it anyway so I might as well not even try". Cop out, all the way.
And Paul, although well-meaning, would have us keep our children naïve and innocent way too long - which in itself could prove to be a danger - they would be way too trusting and not realize that all people do not have their best interests at heart.
To each his own, but at the end of the day, we all know the content, wording and pretty much the entire storyline of this book is not appropriate for a young teen.
Pull up your big-girl panties and be a parent who gives a damn.
You insult my intelligence while thinking you know it all? I do give a damn and that's why I started educating my children about life from the age of about four! I didn't tell them what to think. When they asked a question, I told them what I think but in time they would find their own answers. This included my answers to religious belief.Having said that, I did let them believe in Santa Claus because that is part of childhood and their imaginations needed to be encouraged not dampened and Xmas was so exciting for them. I find it deplorable that children today are not encouraged to use their imaginations (reading is excellent for that) but are given all types of electronic gadgets to shut them up.
Well, I know Maria, that you will have some high minded words of wisdom for me, so let it be!
Very enlightened of you, Laureen. However I am still of the school of thought that it is the job of parents to teach children what is appropriate and what is not - giving them the facts and letting them sort it out for themselves is not parenting. They need to know what your family values are and what your family deems appropriate. Not handed a sado-machochistic book and being told "this is real life - find yourself some answers - ask me questions if need be". A 13 year old doesn't even know what questions to ask.
Again I say, to each his own, but this seems to be a very passive way to parent.
As far as Santa Claus - not sure how this applies to whether the book Gone Girl is appropriate for young teens....
You seem to be under the impression it’s a drop and run scenario. I’m sure Laureen has similar ideas to myself, but I would wait until the 13 year old is ready for and chooses to want to move on to mature books and not force mature books upon them. It would not be a sudden jump from childish book to mature, there would be stages in between that would have led them to being ready and only if they were ready would I be okay with letting them read mature. I would not drop a mature book in their hands and run away.
But if I see myself in them and the younger books no longer stimulated them, I would gladly help them move on if they were ready.
I chose to move on to mature books at 13, starting with Stephen King’s Carrie, the lead up to that was Point Horror stories, because I was bored of children’s books, and I credit that move to keeping my love of reading.
Readership is down in general and it doesn’t help if people, like young teens, give up reading out of sure boredom because their parents can’t see that they’re starting to become adults and try to keep them as a child for too long and force them to read books they no longer have interest in.
At 13, they’re no longer a child, but not quite an adult, but if you think about it there’s only 3 years from the age of 13 til the law would consider they were and that they be allowed to get married, work full-time, join the armed forces and leave home. They’re not going to be mature for or cope with any of that if the parents hold them back and only started introducing them to mature themes at 16.
Nuran wrote: "You seem to be under the impression it’s a drop and run scenario. I’m sure Laureen has similar ideas to myself, but I would wait until the 13 year old is ready for and chooses to want to move on..."
i am very much in Nuran's and Laureen's camp. No one is talking about forcing a teenager to read something they don't want to read, or doing a "drop and run" and Nuran puts it so well. it's about having an ongoing dialogue and relationship with your kid that is supportive and meaningful. telling a child "you can't read that" knowing full well that that is the very type of thing they are interested in reading and will read and ARE READING is meaningless tyranny. what is the next step if they are caught reading that book, to punish them?
CHILDRENS BOOKS-------YA AND ADULT BOOKS THAT DONT HAVE GRAPHIC SEX AND VIOLENCE---------ALL OTHER ADULT BOOKS.Huh look at that there seems to be a middle ground Between childrens book and book about sex and violence and rape ...weird...i Read many adults books that dont contain sex, violence, scenes of violent masturbation and ejaculation, rape and torture mental or physical....weird there seems to be a middle ground between Goodnight Moon and Gone Girl.
Maybe your 13 year old could try those instead....there are in fact LITERALLY THOUSANDS of adult books that dont seem to contain scenes that are meant for adults ONLY.
Someone should maybe create a blog or a websight where people could find books that were appropriate for different ages and maybe call it great reads or Goods books or some combination of those books then parents could find new books for their kids who were bored of curious George and find a good and appropriate read....naw thats just crazy talk just give the kids anything they want and leave it at that its easier.
ANd if you cant tell the HUGE difference between the mental maturity of a 13 and 16 year old wow every year in the development of a child and teens maturity is a huge leap especially before(during) puberty to after....wow people scare me
These days, attending drinks parties is not easy for the internationally bestselling author of Gone Girl, Gillian Flynn. Strangers who have read her three novels, packed with emotional dysfunction, brutal killings, self-harm, foul language and explicit sex, stare at her with morbid fascination. Those who speak to her seem to be, she says, ‘waiting for me to go insane’. So this is from an Interview...golly gee that description doesnt sound kid friendly....whats up with that
Gone Girl is psychologically violent, but it does not involve children. Without giving anything away, it also includes a murder and a woman giving herself internal injuries with a wine bottle to fake a rape.
OH WAIT that must be the part for impressionable teens...god knows with all these evil men around woman need to know how to fake a rape.
This is from the movie reveiw but the movie is remakably accurate to the books and all these things are still there
Content: There is A LOT to be cautious about with “Gone Girl.” A lot. What viewers will have to deal with are some extreme moments of violence (including a scene where a character slits a throat open with a knife and pools of blood are shown).
There is also some INCREDIBLY graphic sexual content and nudity. Sexual content includes multiple scenes (in flashbacks) of a couple having different forms of sex in public places with accompanying sound effects. A husband is shown cheating on his wife with another woman. There is also some male nudity, a scene where a woman is shown undressing (nudity involved), scenes involving a woman’s bare breasts, talk of masturbation, incest, different forms of sex, and talk of various sexual body parts.
In one sex scene, one person slits the other’s throat, while having sex. A woman abuses herself, including jabs a hammer into her eye, causing a huge purple bruise. There is also a scene where a man throws a woman hard to the ground and in another he slams her head against the wall. Another scene involves someone drawing their own blood (in large quantities) and pouring it onto the floor. Please be aware, I have not listed all of the violence.
There is also some heavy profanity to deal with. Multiple and frequent instances of f**k and sh*t are heard. Also, the words c*nt, a**, a**-hole, b**ch, h*ll, t*ts, and p*ssy. God and the Lord’s name are also taken in vain several times.
My favorite bit for the kiddies might actually be when she is having sex with desi and slits his throat during the encounter....oh the kids just laugh so hard at the idea of sex and violence being linked....awesome
let me reprint a couple highlights in case you were no willing to read it allThere is also some INCREDIBLY graphic sexual content and nudity.
In one sex scene, one person slits the other’s throat, while having sex....oh the kiddies just laugh so hard at the idea of sex and insane graphic violence and murder being linked....its just awesome ....ah fodder for future healthy relationships in a impressionable developing mind.
Following your example - Wow, you're so mature, your debating skills just completely wins me over to your side. You're the epitome of maturity and such a great example to follow from and I should take you seriously.Jumping to assumptions again, you really do like to take apart people's word and try and create some conjecture from them to fit your side, no matter how false the statements you make are.
You have no idea what I did read when I was 13, apart from that book I mentioned.
All I said was Carrie was my first venture in to mature books. And in my time, there was no such thing as the YA genre. Just children books and adult books. For me there was no in between so I picked one based on the fact the main character was female and that the writer tried to give horror and the girl's power a sciencetific background which interested me.
You seem under the impression that mature books with violence was the only type of mature books I read at that age, did you even bother to ask if I did read mature books without violence? No, of course not, you like to jump to conclusions, especially if that false conclusion fits your goal.
I certainly tried mature romance but it wasn't for me. I read Books like Flowers of Algernon and The War of the Worlds at around that age too and they were great reads, but I wanted to try many different genres including horror.
Not sure what your point of bringing up that a 13 year old and a 16 year old have different maturity levels. I never said they were the same.
I said a 13 year old isn't a child anymore, but not yet an adult. And a 16 year can be considered mature enough to go to war.
A 13 year old needs those 3 years to prepare for adulthood. You help them by not holding them back.
A 13 year old can be more mature than others, especially if they're not held back, and through those leaps and bounds, they can grow and be even more mature then other 16 years through encouragement. If you can't see that some teens are more mature than others and need more stimulation, makes me wonder if you worked with them at all.
My 13 year old self wouldn't be giggling at the mature scenes in Gone Girl, I would be aghast and shock but I could handle it, to me it would be a story, a plot point and a bit shocking and I certainly wouldn't use it as a basis for future relationships or how to behave.
And again, if my child was not mature enough and would "giggle" at the book, I wouldn't force the book on them. The fact you made such a terrible generalisation over all young teens and think they would all giggle just shows you have your blinkers on and you don't really see them as individuals or understand them.
And teens are not as impressionable as you think they are, especially when it comes to books, otherwise, I certainly would be acting and writing far more childish and far more aggressive than you due to my terrible upbringing.
According to you, I shouldn't have grown into a sensible, functioning healthy adult, that I instead should be a complete mess and in and out of the police station throughout my teen life.
Guess what - I've never been in trouble with the police or violent, I'm not susceptible to peer pressure and because of that I've never been much of a drinker or taken drugs. I've never been antisocial and hid in my room all night. I went on to further education and I have a full time job that I enjoy and I don't live in a pig stye and able to maintain healthy relationships with my family and other people throughout my teens and adulthood. I have empathy and sympathy for people and animals who are hurt and sick and I hate seeing real torture and violence happening to real people or animals.
How did my corrupted mind end up so normal?
Say what you want, I know that this route I'm choosing is not a bad route at all.
Nuran, what a beautiful intelligent person you have grown up to be. My children grew up like that too and they can make their own decisions fearlessly because they know how to use "reason". They haven't been brainwashed into their parents' backward way of thinking.
Maria, you are entitled to your own opinion but your children are individuals and should be granted the same respect. I remember when my oldest daughter had her first period, I thought that the relatively new tampons were too invasive for her to use and would frighten her so I gave her the old cloth pad and suspender belt instead.
Guess what, when my youngest daughter reached that age my older daughter took charge and gave her tampons and showed her how to insert them. The kids at school talk! Duh! If a parent is not making good choices, at least my children had the where-with all to make a sound decision to change. It made perfect sense and was a harmless change. Maria, I realise that, if you are coming from religious values, then this also would be wrong as the hymen would be broken and no proof could be obtained about virginity?
The Christian Religions have some indisputably sound values but much was written in a time that does not relate to our current life. However, I for one, am glad we live in a country based on sound values of the present day which come from the Judeao-Christian faiths. One must use one's own God given judgement when old beliefs are no longer useful or applicable.
Maria, you said that Paul and I were two extremes. That is a misjudgment on your part. I have never held extreme views and, in fact, detest extremes. I am a moderate thinker and base my opinions on observations and facts.
Paul, I have no doubt, has had the privileged position of influencing youth. But has he used it wisely? After hearing what Paul has had to say, I doubt it very much. I can not imagine his self righteous commentary changing the ways of wayward youth. They would just have lost respect for officers which I think is "extremely" bad.
Back to the book. I read it some time ago but I can't even remember the sexual content and only a modicum of the violence. For me it was about choices and relationships and I thought it made some good commentary about bring aware. Adults are not always what they at first appear to be. Don't take people at face value. If you do, and are hurt, learn from that experience but don't let it govern your perceptions of everybody else. Keep your eyes and mind open. Something there for thirteen year olds to contemplate, I would have thought!
NuranI have no idea what the heck you are talking about since the things you say have not much to do with what I actually said.
Never mentioned giggling or even thought about kids giggling I said laughed at the violent sexual scene sarcastically meaning that its not funny but traumatizing for a child to experience a scene of violent murder during a scene of graphic adult sex can you possibly defend a childs right to experience this?
and I wasnt talking about you I was talking about kids now having the options we didnt and can read other things and have many choices available as not to have to read graphic adult content if they become bored with childrens books as you stated
This is insane how can ANYONE argue against the idea that age appropriate materials be given to age appropriate people.I brought this argument to my wife and Mother My Mother being a Born Again far Right and my wife like me an atheist middle left and for once they both agreed that something has gone terribly wrong with the mothers and women in this country.
You are responsible for teaching your children so they can teach theirs and so on. Teaching a child that thre is a time and place for everything. We do not give adult things to children. They do not drink, smoke, or allowed into R or above movies for a reason...they are children. The Book does not have a rating is true but there is no doubting that a book that includes violence and graphic sex was not intended for children which is in fact collaborated by the rating on the movie as a hard R and the movie includes no extraneous scenes not in the book.
Why would you argue to allow a child be allowed access to graphic sex and violence what possible benefit can they gain from it? It just makes no sense.
Oh and as far as the benefit to the kids I worked with...You couldnt me more wrong. Again. Oh not an officer as I keep trying to say but the fact that every course I took, college, state mandated or otherwise says you are wrong I guess I'm fine with what you believe because I had many well meaning but mistaken amateurs give me their opinion over the years and Ill do what I was taught to do nod my head, smile, continue doing the right thing and laugh later.
Paul, if you have never questioned your teachers then it is understandable that you haven't developed your own perspective.Regarding your family members agreeing with you, it was probably because you made some dogmatic statement about this discussion and they were afraid to disagree. I wonder if you realise how aggressive you sound.
Paul have you ever watched the TV series "Breaking Bad"? I imagine (but Si could be wrong) that you would not approve if that for young teenagers. Pardon me if I am wrong. That series would turn the most hardened young teenager against illicit drugs for life and, yes, there is extreme violence in it but it is the message the story is telling that is so enlightening.
Paul wrote: "NuranI have no idea what the heck you are talking about since the things you say have not much to do with what I actually said.
Never mentioned giggling or even thought about kids giggling I said..."
Sorry, looks like you weren't talking directly about me - I for some reason assumed you were talking about my 13 year old self because it followed from my post where I talked about how I'd raised my 13 year old and ended it with what I read at 13, and followed the train of thought from there. Looks like I jumped to conclusion this time and for that I apologise.
Sometimes your posts aren't structured or written well because you're too busy being sarcastic and aggressive and that can make it a bit harder to understand you.
But the rest of my previous post, take that as me superimposing what you think happens to teenagers reading mature books on to myself as an example that what you say isn't true.
Giggle or laugh (in sarcasm or not), there's not a major difference, that you couldn't understand the point I was making, which is you think they can't understand these books.
And a 13 year old can be considered no longer a child, but they're a teenager/young adult and I support their right to mature and start growing up if they're ready to. A book does not have the same graphic impression as a movie, it's only as strong as the teen's imagination and even then it wouldn't be as graphic as the movies.
I have no doubt your training would say to be protective of children, and to avoid exposing graphic violence, that you have to treat them all carefully, and not as individuals with different maturity levels just to be on the safe side. Someone who's more specialised and have to work with children individually will probably treat each case on a more individual basis. Okay, they probably wouldn't let someone else's child read something like gone girl, but I've seen posts from teachers who would be more careful with other people's children and more relaxed with their own.
I know authorities have to be super careful with children because -
1. They don't want to be sued
2. They don't want to be sued
3. Lack of resources and time means they have to do a generic treatment of all children to be on the safe side.
I also doubt mature books falls under graphic violence, you don't see the details that you would see in a movie. In the books, the violent scenes can only last a few sentences, not enough to absorb or imagine all the graphic details but you can't really hide or blur the details from it in the movies.
Graphic = an act depicted or described in vivid detail
I don't think a violent act in a book is necessarily graphic, unless it goes to an excessive amount of details depicting it. Gone Girl doesn't go over the top with details, enough to describe the deed but not enough to give you a graphic, detailed scene. It's not on par with the movie.
Laureen wrote: "Nuran, what a beautiful intelligent person you have grown up to be. My children grew up like that too and they can make their own decisions fearlessly because they know how to use "reason". They h..."
Thanks very much for those kind words, I, however, do feel a bit like a dummy at the moment for misreading one of Paul's latest post.
Laureen wrote: "Paul, if you have never questioned your teachers then it is understandable that you haven't developed your own perspective.
Regarding your family members agreeing with you, it was probably because ..."
I do wonder how that conversation went, and whether he omitted a few details and twisted them or were they fully informed about our reasonings and why. Or whether, they just nodded and agreed with him because they probably couldn't have had a proper conversation about it anyway because he may act just as juvenile in reality as he does online. Or maybe they really are cut from the same cloth.
Nuran, don't worry about misreading Paul's comments. They are hard to understand where he is coming from. When we don't know someone personally, it is hard to understand what appears to be warped thinking but Paul may have had a deprived childhood, lacking love or understanding - please not a judgment, just speculation or perhaps some tragedy befell him or someone he loved dearly. There are many issues in every individual's life that can warp thinking and create anger or aggression. However if you have love from family, it usually dissipates as time goes on.Regarding "that conversation", Paul will be in total denial that he had any influence whatsoever in his family's opinion and I would believe him except for his statements which condemn responsible parenting which encourages young people to think for themselves, weighting the pros & cons to their actions and be willing to wear the responsibility for those actions.
Everybody will make mistakes which is a healthy way of learning what not to do. Over-protecting children leaves them vulnerable and with no knowledge of how to deal with an adverse situation. Of course, a parent needs to know what their children are thinking and offer them advice from their own growing up experiences but these kids may surprise you, Paul, as to just how much they do know and the maturity evidenced by their reasoning.
My four old son was sitting out on our porch with a neighbour's child of the same age. This other child had long been a braggart about his dad. Of course this child was imitating his Dad. My child said to him with a serious look on his face "well, you're good aren't you!"
I laughed myself silly, in private of course. I was so proud of my little son. Even then, he knew how to stick up for himself without resorting to blows or personal insults.
Im so done.I have way better uses for my time especially since its so hard to understand my posts apparently.
I have argued and discussed with parents all my life about ridiculous things they believe i.e. Playing Dungeons and Dragons will bring demons into their house, Harry Potter, Pokemon, Rock N Roll etc etc is evil, playing with a gay friend will turn their child gay and on and on, but I can honestly say this is the first time Ive ever had to actually argue that giving adult material to children is inappropriate...it explains why you struggle understanding my posts though.
So Having given examples of the graphic Violence and Sex not to mention the twisted mature themes in this book I have answered the question put forth by the OP and I am done.
People can judge for themselves right or wrong what they would do in this position but I am not wasting anymore time on what should be common sense. I have much better things to do with my time...even self mutilation would be a better use of my time at this point.
So I will leave you Laureen to figure out yet another one of my complicated posts that confuse you so much but now I'm done. I wont bother to argue and bang my head against a wall, its just pointless in this case, and I won't respond or even read another post trying to convince people its ok for a child to read scenes of extreme Violence, Sex, and abuse. Its too stupid to deserve any attention.
G'day
Perhaps we could have a government committee that oversees the publishing industry and all books before being made available anywhere would go through this committee for approval. The committee would give an age-rating to each book (18, 21, 13, 8, etc.) and it would be illegal for a parent or older sibling or librarian or friend to encourage a person not of the appropriate age level to read that book. This could be combined with a complex series of sanctions ranging from fines to imprisonment depending on the level of offense. The publishing industry could hire lobbyists to try to influence members of the committee to rate books at various ages for various commercial purposes (books make more money when they have a wider audience, but at times a nasty (25++) rating would boost sales). One committee member might be persuaded that the wine bottle incident makes Gone Girl appropriate for 18 and up, and another might interpret it more as 16 and up, and so on. This would spawn an industry of book censoring where someone would take a book like GG and go through and redact some of the scenes and then resubmit it to the committee for an alternate rating for the clean version. In addition to new publications the committee would eventually evaluate all of written literature including essays, poetry, short stories, plays, and so on, including all of the classics and give them age grades. In order to achieve the sense of consistency, the committee in its work would be guided by a massive set of regulations that would be put out by congressional subcommittees each year and a new arm of the federal government for instance if a book used the work f*** a certain number of times it prescribes a certain outcome but it depends on whether the word is used in sexual manner or a violent manner and also depends on the tone of the speaker and how many pages have gone between prior iterations of the word and also context between the characters (relative power imbalance and age range and such). The manual would of course lend itself at times to various interpretations so a small army of attorneys would be needed by the publishing industry and the committee itself to interpret the rules and a special court would be raised up to hear cases. Because of the complexity of the manual, IT engineers would create software programs designed to assist humans in rating the novels and these would be supported by consultants and industry reps and so on encouraging the publishing industry to endorse certain versions of the software as being more accurate than others. It is a blessed thing to consider and one that would surely put our nation on a pathway towards safety.
I think there is a distinct difference between asking "Is this appropriate for a 13 year old?" and "Can my 13 year old handle it anyway?"Obviously, the book is not appropriate for that age group. It's an adult book with adult themes. There is no question about that. However, there are 13 year olds that are mature and knowledgeable and worldly enough to handle the content. For those 13 year olds, it will be okay if they happen to read it.
As for the sentiments of "letting kids be kids as long as possible"....I am telling you as a person who has worked with that age group for the past 15 years, you do not want to send your 13 year old into today's middle schools with that level of naivety.
Individuals should have the freedom and ability to make INFORMED and RATIONAL decisions on what they deem is and isn't appropriate for their children.
Mayor wrote: "Perhaps we could have a government committee that oversees the publishing industry and all books before being made available anywhere would go through this committee for approval. The committee wou..."OMG Mayor, I love your sarcasm. What a nightmare of a big brother you are giving us to visualise! It's scary, but lots of people would see nothing wrong with that. The Government would be able to decrease the unemployment figures at the taxpayers expense and private enterprise would create a new income stream. The only losers would be the reader and lovers of free speech and mind development and travel through books; learning about how others may live and making up our own minds about whether the story is trash or has a worthwhile message.
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I really hope thats sarcasm because if you see this as a marriage guide to its complexities or think there are ANY moral ambiguities here I pity your wife.
Theres nothing ambiguous in this book. Its about bad and mentally ill people doing bad things...PERIOD...nothing ambiguous...NOTHING.
Its a great book for MATURE ADULTS ONLY!