Truth
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Loving rapists and murderers
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I think of this book in terms of Art. If I go see a play and it is terribly sad (say Romeo and Juliet) and I heartbroken and cry the play is still brilliant, because it evoked strong emotion. If I look at a painting and feel nothing then the artist missed the mark. So I think of this work of fiction as a piece of art and love that it evoked strong emotions. Being terrified of a fictional character is ok for me. The world can be a dark place and I would rather explore it via fiction than in person.As far as happily ever afters go-- I think personally I don't have the right perspective (because I read the next book) but at the end of the first book I think my HEA for Claire involved two possible directions-- sanely I wanted her to find her strength and become a strong independent woman with lots of therapy. The vengeful side of me wanted her to track Tony down and kill him (violently and painfully) in cold blood.
Do I love the author's twists, turns imagination and creativity? yes. So I have read the second and look forward to the third book.
Ayhan wrote: "Bea,Why women stay in abusive relationships is a huge, detailed and multilayered subject matter. It's hardly Stockholm Syndrome. They stay in such relationships for various reasons i.e. because o..."
I did not say the book was about Stockholm Syndrome. I said we do not understand such abusive concepts and, as a work of fiction, the book has taken an idea - the abusive relaitonship - and pushed it to the nth degree. I DO NOT understand abusive relationships. Again, I know people who are in abusive relationships and the extent of the abuse is irrelevant because it makes no sense to me why someone would continue to let themselves be flayed, what possesses them to believe they should. In my younger days I did a temporary stint at a women's shelter in London so I do know of women who have found the strength to walk away and I spoke to them at length about their reasons for not leaving sooner. Very rarely did they say it was an easy decision and not all of these women had commitments preventing them from walking. Just about every one of these poor women felt like failures not just because of the way their abusers made them feel but because of their inability to make the relationship work...through no fault of their own! Also, I have spoken at length with people who work with abusers, but it merely helps muddy the waters further. I repeat, continuing in such a relationship and loving the abuser (which many of these women did) I did not and and cannot understand.
I am lucky because I have a wonderful partner. However, there is a core part of me that lacks confidence, believes I am not worth much, does not understand why anyone could love me, etc. and I believe that is a normal part of many people's make-up. Some of us have insulated that part of ourselves better than others and being with someone who values and respects us strengthens that insulating material. You're right in one respect, Claire did have an underlying reservoir of self-disbelief, as do most young women. But you are wrong to say she wasn't emancipated. She was free, single, living, working and surviving by herself. I personally know of no woman of that age who is supremely confident of her abilities and self-worth, no matter how rich, educated, polished, beautiful... I can only say again that I do not know how I would have behaved in her situation. I am reading the book because I am intrigued by Claire, by her reactions, by the way the author handles the subject in a fictional way - that is not to say it is less traumatic but it makes it easier for me to sleep at night. And please do nto sya again that I am excusing Tony's behaviour - I am not, and nor do I believe Claire is. There si a wealth of difference between forgiveness and understanding and acceptance. No, I do not comprehend Claire's willingness to step back into a relationship - especially after having experienced a proper 'normal' relationship with (darn, can't remember his name)the brother - but I can feel the struggle she experiences against her own natural instincts, what she knows she should do versus what her heart wants, a feeling very similar to that which the women at the shelter tried to convey.
Thank you for the reading list. If ever I decide to write about that topic I shall include it as part of my research. Currently I'm getting my head round the nasty world of sex trafficking which is harrowing enough.
My analogy to religion - I really don't think I need to explain that any further. Either you get it or you don't.
Dexter - an american series about a psychopathic (is there any other kind) serial killer. Nothing at all like DeeDee's geeky inventor brother. I refuse to explain why I watch it, but let's just say I would rather spend an hour with that on the screen than Big Brother!
Darby wrote: "I think of this book in terms of Art. If I go see a play and it is terribly sad (say Romeo and Juliet) and I heartbroken and cry the play is still brilliant, because it evoked strong emotion. If I ..."Yes. Beautifully said Darby !
Oh, Bea...I think you struck on something big here. As women we all do have a little self doubt in us. No matter how we want to deny it, we've been socialized to believe that if a man doesn't want us, we are worthless. Intellectually we don't believe that is true, but deep down, it's in many of us.Excellent point!
Whatever the argument to or against, there is no escaping that this story is gripping, & superbly written keeping us enthralled with where the story is going to end up. And i for one don't 'like' or 'Love' psychopaths rapists and murderers per say, but some people need to remember this is only fiction, very well written!!!
Terri wrote: "My opinion is...In life, I always believe people deserve a second chance, NOBOBY is perfect. That thought also carries over when i read a FICTIONAL book. I also believe with this book SO MUCH is NO..."I couldn't agree more :)
Gsr wrote: "Whatever the argument to or against, there is no escaping that this story is gripping, & superbly written keeping us enthralled with where the story is going to end up. And i for one don't 'like' o..."Yes agreed! And there should be no argument. People have different interpretations of this story. I for one, and I said it before, believe that we will find out he is not responsible for a lot of the things that It appears that he has done. Maybe I am wrong but that's my opinion. (Hopeful anyway) I was not convinced of him being 100% guilty of some of the things. I also have a strange feeling that we may get a surpise appearance by someone that is supposed to be 6ft under. That's the beauty of this story. Who knows what's going to happen!!
Terri wrote: "Gsr wrote: "Whatever the argument to or against, there is no escaping that this story is gripping, & superbly written keeping us enthralled with where the story is going to end up. And i for one do..."Really? Tell me - who do you think will magically appear from the beyond?
Bea wrote: "Terri wrote: "Gsr wrote: "Whatever the argument to or against, there is no escaping that this story is gripping, & superbly written keeping us enthralled with where the story is going to end up. An..."lol ! Bea I'm sorry I didn't expect for that to come across like I had someone specific In mind. I guess i just watch way to many Liftime Movies.
Damn, Girl. You had me ready to reread the last book for clues...and I don't want to do that until the week before the next book is due out!
Bea wrote: "Damn, Girl. You had me ready to reread the last book for clues...and I don't want to do that until the week before the next book is due out!"I know I'm dying to reread also maybe to pick up on something I may have missed...But I'm waiting just like u.
Wonder where Ayhan went? Maybe he is the Easter bunny...we haven't heard from him since Saturday, so perhaps he's been out delivering Easter baskets. Now there's a thought, LOL
Shellody wrote: "Wonder where Ayhan went? Maybe he is the Easter bunny...we haven't heard from him since Saturday, so perhaps he's been out delivering Easter baskets. Now there's a thought, LOL"Maybe he is teaching a class on Ethics.
Maybe, Jeanie :)
I saw him in Barnes & Noble in the "Dark and Disturbing" section. He had a mask on. He was picking out a new book to bash. (Sorry, couldn't resist. My bad)
Ayhan wrote: "Jeanie, your apology is accepted,you kept clear of a tongue-lashing, good riddance:)Yea right!Ayhan, as far as the first part of my post and our discussion, I guess perhaps that is for another time and place... One where I can explain sarcasm. Another thread perhaps.
However, specificaly in regards to Aleatha and her fade out scenes (in the beginning of book 1 and the condo scene in book 2. I understand that you hated it, ok. However you felt the Author deliberately did the following: "She underestimated, slighted, slurred over and concealed the heinous nature of these crimes, thus led the readers to suppose it was not a big deal, which caused them to forgive him easier, a very bad message to convey".
In reality, she used a creative writing technique called "telling" as opposed to "showing". In this way, she built the tone, nuance, tension and suspense of the book from the very beginning. She subtly built her plotting to be character driven rather than event driven, another writing technique. She layered the plotting so well she did not have to resort to the gratuitous detailed scenes of physical abuse that you felt she glamorized when in fact she shied away because she was obviously uncomfortable with it. She solved her problem by using the "telling" technique. It is so obvious juxtaposition I am surprised you did not notice it, yet you felt she was concealing it to try to manipulate the readers.
She also gave us those scenes via an unreliable narrator by using a drugged Claire. She listened in creative writing class; Character development will give you a bestseller. It was to justify giving us a POV from Tony and creating a character that is layered with depth (good or bad) instead of a one-dimensional abuser. These plot devises drive the story and in these instances, they created so much tension and suspense it made hard to put down book. That is why so many women loved the book. I feel they do NOT quite UNDERSTAND why they love it. It may explain why we are getting so many Tony lovers. If the "fan girls" as you put it, who love Tony did not get the point, it is not because Aleatha catered to them, it is because they are shallow or they are desensitized.
You stated that you felt she conveyed that women have zero self-esteem, etc, etc. That would lead me to believe she used persuasion, but that is seriously not the case. The writing technique of persuasion is used to get readers to align their point of view with the writers. She did not go there. Her technique was unbiased.
The book is not about glamorizing abuse, kidnapping, rape, and sex etc; it is about a person's mind, the strength and fragility of it. It is about the mind games we play with each other for power and revenge. Lastly, it is about the Consequences of our Truth and Convictions (the pun was intended). It is not a romance book, it is more in the vein of a psychological thriller. If there are people out there that feel it is romantic then we are seriously doomed. However, as far as your opinions of Aleatha and her writing, she is a very good new writer and she has crossed so many genres here with these books, she does not deserve some of your criticism.
Finally, since it has been really bugging me. Tony did not murder Claire's parents, ex-boyfriend. If you can stomach a re-read, it is in book 2.
Terri wrote: "I saw him in Barnes & Noble in the "Dark and Disturbing" section. He had a mask on. He was picking out a new book to bash. (Sorry, couldn't resist. My bad)"so bad!
Shellody wrote: "Wonder where Ayhan went? Maybe he is the Easter bunny...we haven't heard from him since Saturday, so perhaps he's been out delivering Easter baskets. Now there's a thought, LOL"Baskets filled with rotten eggs.
You all know he is probably creeping the crap out of this thread still, and setting his voodoo dolls up to get rid of all us 'evil women' lol
I think this horse is well and truly dead. Bye, ladies. See you on another discussion...are we enabling Winnie the Pooh tendencies in obese children/why are we rooting for Dexter Morgan/surely Mary Poppins is a stalker...
Holy Crap, we got the last word in.
I cannot wait to read Convicted!!! I do not care what anyone says, this is just a STORY, a very good STORY that had me fighting to keep my eyes open late at night to continue reading. True! Tony is crazy but that's just his character in the STORY, and yes, Claire is very weak, but that's her role in this FICTIONAL STORY. Good Job on keeping my attention, Alethea, please keep me entertained with this Sadistic, Murdering, Kidnapping, Stockholm Syndrome, Entertaining Story.
One question too all of you when you read the title have any of yous noticed it these series are in the DARK EROTIC Section which part of dark erotic do you people understand it is FICTION not real I don't understand why people blame the author and fans did the author promised you or gave you a illusion that the series are all hearts and flowers, chocolate NO its a DARK EROTIC U chose to read it no one forced you so stop saying fans are crazy in the book there was a error the author never wrote rape scene just vague I still understand that Claire still got raped and other stuff was Tony proud of it NO he was sorry did he changed YES not mention why does everyone forget the cause that Marie bitch it was her character not Tony she manipulated him no one can understand the power of manipulation unless they've been a victim of it
Miss Bee wrote: "FUCK YES. THIS. YOU SAID IT ALL! When I was reading the second book, all I did was to curse Tony for being such a sick psycho and Claire for being so stupid and dumb! UGHH Thank god someone like yo..."And you think having a traumatic childhood gives character like Christian to do what he did ? The only reason Ana character forgive Christian was because of LOVE that's it she couldn't understand him and Claire forgive Tony for LOVE just because Tony family died when he was in his 20 makes it less traumatic? Age does not matter Tony character looked up to his grandfather was his ideal his family was not that close then his grandfather died all Tony had was feelings of AGGRESSION and Marie took advantage of that to manipulate TONY at least TONY character realised what he did was wrong did Christine character realised that nope he would control Ana n find it normal he did not change even once in the whole book only thing changed was he accepted children n become a father that's it . Tony character found it hard but he changed he listened to Clair understood her compromised for her. Notice one thing I said Characters because that's what they are not REAL can U all please lock that in your brains this is FICTIONEL
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I think it's probably more common to never be deemed fit for trial than to be found innocent by reason of insanity. This is probably most likely due to the fact that the lawyers/psychiatrists/etc don't want someone released based on insanity, and risk that they go back into the public. If they are held until they are fit for trial, they are likely to be given prison time.
Most state-run institutions have a criminal component, that can house those who are waiting for trial. It's kind of scary over there, I'll be honest. I was on a women's unit, and to read these women's charts was devastating. Every single one I read had horrific abuse in their pasts. None were ever likely to see the outside of the mental hospital or a trial. They were too damaged. Were their actions acceptable? No. Forgivable? To me, yes. I must point out, most of them were there for killing their abuser; not all, but most.
Bipolar does not acquit someone of a crime, but might make them unable to stand trial. I honestly don't know what I would do in this case. I do know in the case I referred to, the father/husband has forgiven his son.
I'll always be honest when I say *I*...it's only those questions that begin with 'what if' or 'what about' or something like that. If I say I feel something, it's not just to argue.