Truth
discussion
Loving rapists and murderers
OMG ENOUGH with this thread already. It's ENOUGH.
Ayhan...I didn't see or respond to your earlier post...I want to clarify that I wasn't speaking of romantic love when I posed the hypothetical question. I meant what if you sympathized and respected him? I think you understood my intentions, but wanted to make sure.
Hypothetically, I think I would feel every negative thing you listed....as would most people, which is why I posed the question. I think there is quite a bit of psychology in that, though, and something I think would make a great point of discussion.As a woman, if I see a woman sympathize for Tony it's because I put the woman in the victims role. As a woman, if I see a male identify and or sympathize for Tony it's because I put him in the aggressor role...
I'll admit I skimmed your post, just saw the brief comment about my statement, and wanted to be clear. I'll read it more thoroughly now.
So...a couple other points of discussion in that post (post 132). First, I agree. Childhood abuse does not give a person the right to do heinous things to others as adults. Unfortunately, ethics, morals, right , and wrong are learned concepts and behaviors, they are not innate. If you grew up with abuse, particularly with few outside examples of moral behavior, your moral compass is going to be skewed. It does not excuse the behavior, but it does offer a explanation. If we can identify a cause and effect relationship, we can then identify possible solutions.Secondly, I don't think we can say what the author hoped to accomplish by writing this story. You can say you feel she was trying to do this or that, but you don't know that for certain. I think she is trying to challenge readers, and make us have discussions about forgiveness and love, and all the other things that come up when talking about these books.
Finally, in your most recent post, you stated I would consider kicking someone out who did those things. You are very, very wrong. I'd definitely kick that person out. There would not be any consideration. Yes , I know this for certain because I've done it (for far less serious offenses, mind you). Does that make me stronger than Claire or someone in real life who has been in a similar circumstance? Absolutely not...it just means that the whole of my life experiences brought me to a place that I made the choice to leave a situation I had deemed unsafe. I had not been subjected to the loss of my support system, or months of psychological abuse, however, so I was in a position to do that.
I agree that you would have been villainized had you been a male Tony sympathizer...again, which is why I posed the question in the first place. I was hoping it would spur on discussion, but it failed miserably :(
Hi all . I would like to say that this thread that has been going on is probley one of the reason we have all read the book ?!?! As human's we all like to test ourselves !!! Weather it be reading / watching or generally going things we don't like we all like to test our limits !! . And granted this book with its fictional character's is just that . It does bring to the forefront the real and challenging subjects of rape/ murder/ abdction . And that in its self is for an explosive read . What I'm trying to say is for me this book was about trying to get my head around how the mind works when put in situations like that. Granted we are all different but put us in a situation like that and its fight/ flight it's about survival and the most bizzar things we do'relationships we make and the choice's we might or might not take ?? But with all that said I did enjoy the book as it got me thinking a hell of a lot way after I had finish it . And I think maybe that might of been one if the book objectives ?!?! Just thought I would add my piece ;))
"A", your incredibly lengthy soliloquies all sound like blah, blah, blah, blah, drone, drone, drone (maybe its just me). Like I said, I haven't read them, but the length is daunting. I'm sure mine will be just as tldr as yours. We'll see.In skimming down to the next posts, I did see where you claim to know a good deal about Stockholm Syndrome, so I read what you said about it. You clearly aren't familiar with the cases in which victims have testified on behalf of their captors (after emancipation) or the phenomena in which the captive often takes up the captor's offense along with him/her (in the case of kidnappings as an act of protest or vengeance). Stockholm Syndrome lingers depending on the nature of the abduction.
You are also unclear about the effect of breaking down a personality and building them up again like they do in the military. This vanishing of symptoms you think happens at emancipation isn't true.
Ok, looks like I have even more to say after going back to skim your comments:
First off, let me just say, your perspective of yourself as being some sort of Dom of this thread has a squicky factor of 500, just so you know. I know you started the thread, but you don't need to behave like some sort of moderator who is gracing us with his stamp of approval/disapproval on everything contributed. We especially don't need it from someone who has no interest in how accurate his own information is. Not sure if you thought we wouldn't notice but you have skewed the content of these books in every one of your posts. Not one single murder has been attributed to Tony, which is part of the wonderful complexity of this plot. I'm not saying that matters so much for this discussion bc we know that the crimes Tony did commit were atrocious and totally unacceptable. However, your consistency in doing it is grating on my nerves. You think it bolsters your stance against "spineless women who love crime and criminals" (an argument that is basically misogynistic in nature, not to mention completely baseless since readers who like Tony, don't do so because of his crime), but it really devalues your contribution in a big way.
How many times do you have to hear: no reader who has ever discussed this series has supported, approved of, enjoyed or desired Tony's crimes and are all conflicted about their sympathetic feelings for this character for you to finally get it? No reader should be apologizing to you or anyone else for wanting redemption or an HEA for Dexter or Tony Soprano or this Tony or anyone else! You may be thinking that HEA or redemption means no consequences. Wrong again. Redemption does not mean acquittal or pardon. It means redemption of his "person" whether it takes place in a jail cell or he gets off scot-free.
And by the way, the very creepy way you are trying to "pet" those you think are "nice" to you and "reject" of those who are "mean" to you in this thread is gross. I guess you really do think we readers are naive and tailor everything in our lives based on who is charming us and manipulating our emotional and sensual neediness ("emotional/sensual needs" being your phrase). I am happy to inform you that you are incorrect. Your skeezy way of communicating isn't fooling anyone.
If you want to know why anyone sympathizes with anti-heroes, go read a fucking case study about it. Don't come in here acting like you are so concerned about what this love for Tony might mean to society at large and then behave like you are hoping to make some kind of imaginary harem out of the responders here. And mentioning your D/s relationship? Honestly, I was wondering when we would be hearing from you about your sex life. I am surprised it took you this long to bring it up. I guess the opportunity didn't present itself easily before now.
I can't imagine why it didn't work out when you clearly love and respect submissive women so much.
Searock wrote: ""A", your incredibly lengthy soliloquies are sound like blah, blah, blah, blah, drone, drone, drone (maybe its just me). Like I said, I haven't read them, but the length is daunting. I'm sure mine ..."OMG.. this made me LOL..
On a serious note even though you really made me laugh, and I thank you because you took the words right out of my mouth!!
Sheesh, Shannon, I was so embarrassed having such a long comment after saying that to him, I had to take off the last part and add it here:Oh, and to answer one of your questions, "A" ... no, I wouldn't judge your character on whether you find Tony a sympathetic character or found him appealing in any way. I would base it on the asshat ways you behave in real life.
If you liked Tony based solely on his crimes or if you genuinely excused his crimes or wanted him to continue perpetrating his crimes, we might be having a different kind of discussion. But no one here is actually saying that, so I am gonna have to call bullshit on the whole thing. The readers who ended up liking Tony- even loving him as Claire did- in some ways are not the blight on society that you claim they are. Period.
I just don't understand anything he had to say.. Of course none of us agreed with the way Tony behaved, but we also have a whole lot more to learn about him, and as we were talking about earlier, it feels like a lot of the blame might not be on Tony..I think the person who wrote this was looking for drama, he doesn't like women clearly, and now that he has had such a negative reaction, he is backing into trying to play the victim and make everyone who said they liked Tony, sound like a "fan girl". I just don't understand as a person why he would attack the way he did.. I don't think he lives his life as a good person, and it is clear on here the way he spoke to many of us..
And to get more crap.. I LOVED this book, I loved the writing and even though I hated most of his actions, I lOVED TONY!!
This whole thing made me think of something i tell my kids. It's not always what you say it's HOW you say it, the deliverence. Something's telling me someone might be walking with their tail between their legs after book 3. We will see.... BTW, This is my all time favorite series, after i read this nothing compared.
Oh yeah Terri, something for sure is going to blow us away in book 3.. The author knows what she is doing and she loves Tony, so I have a feeling we are going to find out some big things..This is a series that sticks with you, that's for sure..
Possible spoilers for those who haven't read the books: I am guessing that if any of us were kidnapped and made to work off the vendetta that our captor had against a family member, we wouldn't end up marrying them in real life. I am guessing that every reader, like myself, was mortified to read that Claire was willing to marry Tony. Kindles were likely hitting the walls every time someone read that.
I don't pretend to know everything about this character, but I do know one other thing "A" has wrong (oh, where to begin!). In the series, Tony isn't mentally ill in the traditional sense that serial killers would be. He wasn't emotionally mutilated by abuse or neglect. Tony isn't on a raping/killing spree driven by some twisted compulsion. Tony has issues stemming from a confusing childhood and misunderstandings about a strange vendetta that, if rendered null and void (in Tony's mind), would likely change the story completely and make room for redemption. The crimes Tony committed are heinous and are deserving of consequences- nobody, nobody denies that.
This guy is just being a "drama llama".
I may be forgetting, but at what point does he actually "rape" her?? And when does he "murder" anyone right out? It has been a while since I read Consequences so I may be forgetting these horrible crimes...I couldn't stand her taking him back,and I hated him in book one.. Until I read truth and then went back..
I know I am flying under the radar here and might get a tongue-lashing from Ayhan ;) In his dreams! However, the unequivocal "truth" here is that he will never know what it is like being a woman, so he could not possibly know why we hate/love Tony, or what goes on in our silly little heads. Only another woman could understand the depths of our oppression at the hands of a man. Whether a woman has been actually abused physically is a moot point, it starts psychologically the minute our little toddler brains can comprehend. We are constantly abused and oppressed, in your face or veiled.
Furthermore, the gist of the book IMHO is about being mind fucked and that is why the book is so fascinating.
I can understand his incredulousness concerning why the women love Tony. As I reread his initial comments, he really is saying this and his opinion is directed at the Tony lovers.
However, what I cannot ignore is his gem of a comment below from message #1:
"Those reviews made me think that we should be glad there are not many women around who are in powerful positions or governments or courts, otherwise we all would have messed up as humanity. Obviously most women who loved Tony here are irrational, illogical."
Illogical indeed...
Or how about this comment in message #43:
" I didn't suppose there is a woman out there who disliked a sadistic murderer and rapist:)"
But, I suppose he was being sarcastic... he cannot fool me though.
How about this treasure in message #45:
"Yes I am glad that not so many women around in power even though I fully supported feminism and women rights and their integration into work life, but now I am not that sure."
Aggressive, Passive, Aggressive.... Well which one dammit!
In addition, from his greatest hits... message #137:
"First, you accused me for attacking women , which was utterly inaccurate, ".
It's called amnesia folks....
Methinks we all need shackled, Master ...
Oh and Ayhan, keep the bull in Istanbul. Laters Baby!
Jeanie wrote: "I know I am flying under the radar here and might get a tongue-lashing from Ayhan ;) In his dreams! However, the unequivocal "truth" here is that he will never know what it is like being a woman,..."
LOL :)
One other quick thing to add to this "conversation". I am confused about this title of "fangirl". It seems that since fandoms have come into existence (Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc), that "fans" have been accused of becoming so intimately involved with the "series" that they identify themselves with it and defend it as being flawless even in the face of evidence to the contrary? Is that correct? Is that then the reason why calling someone a "fangirl" renders anything they say and do meaningless- because they lack perspective?If that is the case, may I posit that fangirls and fanboys are terms used more generically now and therefore don't have quite the same qualities. People who like a series or franchise well enough to collect "pins" about it or join one of the many "groups" available or follow the schedule of releases and squee a bit about upcoming events are not the "fanpeeps" of old. Old school fans of a pop franchise could be so hardcore that they would alter lifestyles and maneuver life events around in order to participate in groups and fan out on listserve forums and seek out the small communities available to serious adherents of fandoms back in the day. That's doesn't really define the modern "fan", imo.
"A" doesn't seem to realize that readers who like this book or find Tony an amazing or appealing character are not "fangirls" in the traditional sense simply because they belong to a group, discuss the series and look forward to the final book.
He just wanted to cause drama, he wanted to attack by any means that he could.. "Fan girl" is a way he did that.. it was stupid lol
Interesting comments everyone...Shannon, this made me giggle: "And to get more crap.. I LOVED this book, I loved the writing and even though I hated most of his actions, I lOVED TONY!!"
You are such a rebel :).
To answer a question you had earlier since no one else has tried to answer yet, I don't know at what point Tony actually raped Claire. There are readers who say some or all incidents were rape because of her compromised state of mind. Some believe after she turned to him or after she married him, it isn't rape. We each seem to have a slightly different boundary that we feel constitutes rape in the first book.
I agree Terri, this could have easily been an awesome discussion about a very compelling and difficult subject. The "deliverance" was awful. LOL. I'm not teasing you for using the word that way, I am loving your use of it that way :).
Super interesting comments, Jeanie.
Louise wrote: "Hi all . I would like to say that this thread that has been going on is probley one of the reason we have all read the book ?!?! As human's we all like to test ourselves !!! Weather it be reading ..."Your comment has me thinking about the fight or flight response that we're all familiar with. Does anyone agree that Claire's submission was a version of "fighting" since fleeing wasn't a viable or likely successful option?
Shellody wrote: "So...a couple other points of discussion in that post (post 132). First, I agree. Childhood abuse does not give a person the right to do heinous things to others as adults. Unfortunately, ethics,..."I found everything you said in this post so valuable!
(I also loved that you used words like cause/effect and solutions. Its so left brain- yay!)
that is me Searock rebelling to support the crazy Tony lol
Searock wrote: "Shellody wrote: "So...a couple other points of discussion in that post (post 132). First, I agree. Childhood abuse does not give a person the right to do heinous things to others as adults. Unfor..."I'm glad I gave you the evidence to prove my left-brained ness....how very left-brained of YOU ;). I'm trying to get in touch with my right brain. I hear its very warm and fuzzy over there.
I've also thought about how fight or flight plays into this type of situation. Physiologically, your body can only stand the adrenaline rush for short periods of time. Exhaustion sets in pretty quickly.
So, one of the things I thought about was what I would do (obviously). I went back and forth between basically curling into the fetal position and going into a catatonic state, and fighting for all i was worth. I figured he'd kill me for not cooperating or kill me in defense/anger. Honestly, I don't think I'd be strong enough to survive this situation. I don't think I'd want to.
And maybe that's why I didn't like it....not sure I like what I decided about myself :)
Oh, got sidetracked there. Anyway, physiologically, fight or flight is a huge burst of adrenaline that gives us the energy to either fight or flee. I'm not really sure you can say that her submission was a result of that. I'd say a survival instinct kicked in, but, at least medically speaking, I don't know I could stretch it to fight or flight. Interesting to consider though....
Interesting, I didn't realize I was stretching the physiological reaction of fight or flight into a psychological concept. I guess I didn't realize there wasn't a long-term version of it :).Think of it as punching someone metaphorically very, veeery, veeeeeeeery sloooooooooowly.
Lol @ punching visual. To my knowledge there isn't a long term physiologic version. Physiologically, blood flow is re-routed through dilated vessels in muscles and constricted vessels in non-essential areas, heart and respiratory rate increase, digestion stops (why we call the opposite of fight or flight 'rest and digest)...none of those things can be maintained long term. Adversely, I think psychology has to kick in when the body can't get out of the situation on that initial instinct.
Gotcha. Thanks for the explanations, @Shellody! They are very much appreciated.
I'm not sure those outside of healthcare realize its a physiological response and not psychological one....excellent theory though. I'm glad I can put all those years of college to good use LOL
Ayhan, I have a question for you:What's it to you if readers enjoy dub-con, non-con or torture fiction?
What business is it of yours exactly?
You are so right, Rebecca!The best part about this thread has been meeting you awesome women, btw.
I am back to being flabbergasted that anyone has the gall to challenge readers on this site about their reading choices and to cast aspersions on their character based on their reading choices!.
What the eff does he care if the author created a mindfuck story about an anti-hero and successfully made him sympathetic? He also seemed really miffed at the author for doing that, did you notice?
It is shocking! And the idea that he wants to connect to these readers to discuss how ridiculous they are is so effed up and skeevy. He's really enjoying talking down to everyone here and condescending them with statements like, "you are correct" or "well, I already explained why women stay in abusive relationships in a previous comment- why don't you go read it and then if you have any questions, come back and ask me" WTF? Who does he think he is? If she wanted to know why women stay in abusive relationships, she would look up an expert's opinion not yours, Captain Self-Important. What a windbag!
I swear this guy is perving out about this. Why does he want to engage in this bullshit battle? Its so weird! And did you notice, he never addresses any of the comments about what a creeper he's being.
I really hope he tries to answer about why he thinks its his business if women enjoy reading these dark genres, but he hasn't responded to one single thing I've said yet (except to cry, "she's being mean to me!"), so he'll probably avoid that one too. If he does, he'll probably say something like, "I'm such a cosmopolitan man, did I mention I know multiple languages and have degree? Did I mention I'm a bit dominant sexually (please feel free to PM me and I will share with you some details). I try to expand my horizons with knowledge of every sort. Please try to 'splain to me why you are so gullible as to want a rapist as your lover? I would like the opportunity to tell you how stupid you are. I mean I would reeeeeaaallllly like it".
I actually didn't notice the smiley faces. Do you mean on the link to the other review or in one of his comments here?
Ok, but if I leave it and promise not to comment any more, will you support me and not lead me into temptation by commenting?
I will have to start finishing all my insults with smiley faces! You're right, they are the cherry on top of the Condescension Sundae.
I know what will help... If I opt out of notifications and promise myself not to peek, I think I can quit this nasty habit.
Are you ready? I am signing off. My finger is hovering over the opt out button...
Wait guys don't forget me!! :P
I don't know what your response was "A" but I think they left you lol.. Move on buddy..
Glad that's over. That took way too much of my time. I tried so hard not to keep looking at the thread. It will be nice to get back to discussing what a wonderfully written book this was. I am so looking forward to book 3.....yeah!! Ok I'm off to read another Dark and Twisted book. ;)
Ayhan, I have to disagree on a couple things. I do think fans of Tony still probably see Claire as a victim. Only a few very mentally ill people (men or women) could actually think what Tony did was acceptable. As Searock has pointed out, I think most of those who ultimately become fans of Tony are a fan because of what he (and in some ways, what THEY) overcame, and not what he did in the beginning of the book(s). I think this is absolutely CRUCIAL to understand, and may be a big part of why you've had difficulty accepting those who can forgive Tony.Yes, both nature and nurture affect one's inclination towards violence. Often it is a combination of the two. Whether it's brain chemistry, brain anatomy, or a poor up-bringing, it's important to identify the cause so it can be stopped.
Ayhan said, "Lol I guess there is a misunderstanding here. I didn't mean that if you'd consider to leave your boyfriend/hubby if he acted like Tony. I meant that if you would consider to kick him out if he'd identify/sympathize with Tony.
Yes, evidently I did misunderstand. And, things are not that simple. I think this decision/consideration would hinge on one primary factor: 1) What and how is this hypothetical he identifying? Is he saying, "yeah, Tony is awesome. He kidnaps women then brutally attacks them...he's my hero!" or is he saying, "I admire how the author wove a story that made me believe that people could change, and love really can conquer all. I hated that guy in the beginning, and I hate how the author made me have a change of heart, but I did!" This is important, because the first guy I'm calling the cops on. The second, I'm going to respect and enter into an intelligent conversation with. Again, I think this is a crucial point to your argument.
I have not read The Manipulated Man.
This is fiction not real life!!! I'm sure that there are many characters in fiction that people love that they'd never associate with in reality. Isn't this why we all love to read? So that we can escape reality and peak into a world other than our own.
I do think there is a big difference between accepting and forgiving. Let's say your loved one has a drug problem. Then let's say, they go into treatment, and stop using them. You do not ACCEPT using drugs, but you can forgive them once they make better choices and get the treatment they need.I don't think any of Tony's actions were excusable, and I don't think many others do either. I think they forgive him based on a change in behavior...Unfortunately, I think this is a difficult thing to argue in something other than your native language. I'm not sure it's easy to understand the differences if you only use a standard dictionary to define the words. I think there are cultural nuances that make up the subtle differences.
Sometimes, I think we have to look at the consequences of the consequences. Consequences should alter behavior ideally. In the United States, our prison system is punitive, meaning we are punishing those who commit crimes. What if it was a treatment and/or recovery based system? What if the goal was to help these people overcome their demons and become productive members of society? Now, I understand I'm oversimplifying this, but on a very shallow level, this is something to think about. How does this apply to Tony? What if we can imagine that love overcame Tony's demons, and he can now be a productive member of society? What, then, does a life-long prison term accomplish? Again, this is a huge stretch, and it's an interesting thought.
Regarding the hypothetical situation, I think it would come back to too many variables to discuss. Nothing is ever black and white. I do know, that I wouldn't base an entire relationship on comments about a character in a book. If I had enough doubts about a guy that this raised a red flag, I'd probably kick him to the curb regardless of how he felt about Tony.
Awww, Ayhan, how do you know I wasn't talking about heroin? And honestly, I'm not sure it matters if something is legal or not, it can still be harmful if an addiction develops. Especially an addiction of mind-altering substances. I also disagree that drug use (which is different than addiction) only harms the user. There is great potential for harm to others.You said, The question here is, what do you forgive if those said actions are so inexcusable? I think that answer can only be answered by the individual in question. What I could learn to forgive and what you could are two different things.
It was not my intention to offend your use of English. I meant I was unsure *I* could explain what I meant, when so much of it is not about a traditional definition, but subtle nuances. It's safe to say I could not have a discussion (especially a heated one such as this) in any language other than my native English. I've studied other languages, but could not do what you have done during this thread. I think I may have jumped to this conclusion because of some of the other things you've said...I thought some of the misunderstandings on this thread came from the language barrier.
Yes, I do know the prison system has several functions. I also know what I proposed in my previous post wouldn't truly work (I'm not naive, I just play it on threads about books :)) but wouldn't it be grand if it did? I truly want to believe everyone has good in them, and if we could tap into it, there would be no more Tony's of the world--except in fiction ;) Of course, I know we can't, but it's an interesting society to ponder.
Oh, I must confess I do oppose capital punishment. I don't oppose it for the reason you might assume, however. I oppose it for 3 reasons: 1) too many people are wrongly convicted; 2) if it's wrong for me to kill you, then it's wrong for the state/government to kill me; 3) it's cheaper to keep those persons in prison than to fund the appeals system.
Oh, just thought of another example. Mental illness....if my loved one did something horrible as the result of undiagnosed or in adequately treated mental illness, I think I could work to forgive them. I could never accept their actions, but would probably be able to forgive them....eventually.
Ayhan wrote: "Jeannie,Ayhan,
You found it utterly disrespectful that I referred to you in the third person. I do humbly apologize, so sorry sir. However, I found it utterly disrespectful that you felt, and I quote "Those reviews made me think that we should be glad there are not many women around who are in powerful positions or governments or courts, otherwise we all would have messed up as humanity".
So, I ask you do you feel that women and men are equal? Your statements I referred to in my previous post reflect a mentality that could not be farther from it. That makes me sad and a little salty (pissed).
You said that men and women are not so different and that it's a social construction. However, from a purely anthropological and archaeological view it has been proven that from the dawn of time, women have been oppressed and dominated. Not because a lack of intelligence but from a lack of physical strength. to prove my point you have The Amazonians from the plains around the black sea (close to you) cut off their breasts so they could even the playing field with their shooting bows during battles. They were successful for hundreds of years until they intermarried with the Scythian men or in my opinion were overrun by them. Trust me when I say with my boobs (awkward) and my stature I could never compete with a man who has 50 to 100 lbs of muscle. All I have is my intellect, and that up against an army of men is not going to get me very far. So for that women have been dominated, oppressed, coveted, abused and just plain fucked with from the day we were born. So my fellow sisters and I have an almost intuitive understanding with each other.
Also, you advised me that I could not understand another woman fully as she is another individual and human being with a different upbringing, mindset, brain, education, family, morals, genetic. Well to a point that is correct but when you hit the genetic schema, your argue falters. I have something that makes me understand a women more than you ever could and that is called xx chromosome (not to mention tons of estrogen, the like of which you have never seen). You have a xy chromosome. The X chromosome contains more than 1,000 working genes, and the Y chromosome has less than 100 working genes, so score one for the women, yay! In essence who knows what the double xx's give my fellow women and me in our understanding of each other. It most certainly separates you from me.
What also makes me sad is that you also assumed I am a Tony lover by your use of "you" and the following comment: "How do I know why you love Tony? Err because I read your reviews where those women expressed, articulated, explained, detailed and reasoned their causations and effects for that love. Unless you'd say that those are dishonest or lying, yes I exactly know why you love Tony."
That could not be farther from the truth, I hate Tony. I love the book however, the way the author wrote it and treated the actual moments of physical abuse with much respect by fading out the scenes. The way the author flipped our conclusions, took us to the edge of horror, and then reeled us back. The techniques she used, the character development, plot devices, foreshadowing and the suspense. I started reading the first book and was hooked because of the horror of it all. So, give Althea a little credit, I do not think she is catering to the fan girls of Tony or glamorizing abuse. What she is doing is pushing the reader to doubt their beliefs and think outside of the box. She may be able to work some magic and come to a middle ground, but one thing for sure she will never be able to please all of us.
Good morning. I guess in your case it's good evening. Actually, it's barely morning here, perhaps it'd be safest to say Good Day :)I still think acceptable and forgivable are different, but if you have no comment I'm good with agreeing to disagree.
Actually, maybe now is a good time to explain why I like to debate....sometimes even argue things I don't actually believe. My opinions are fluid (as if that wasn't abundantly obvious here), so I like to hear what other people think just in case they say something that never even crossed my mind. That's definitely been the case in this thread. So, sometimes I make points that even if I don't believe them, I think it's a reasonable argument, and I'd like to hear what others have to say about it. I do this in real life too; it drives some people crazy :)
Actually, when I speak of drugs being harmful, I tend to automatically think of three: alcohol, cocaine (or cocaine-like such as meth) and heroin. I've seen the horrible effects of nearly all drugs, although I typically deal with the physical effects. The propensity to violence depends on the drug, of course. I do not think drug use is acceptable, but I do think it is forgivable.
As far as the language barrier...I studied German and Spanish. I studied German for several years, and spent a couple weeks in Germany. I was reasonably fluent, although I couldn't have had a discussion such as this one. That was through high school and college, however, so now it's been 15 years or so. Since I rarely had the opportunity to use it, I'm no longer fluent and could barely say 'hello'. I studied Spanish only very briefly, and was never fluent.
Honestly, my study of German helped me learn English much better. When you have 12-15 different words for "the," and each one helps you know what tense you are in, you finally learn what a direct object REALLY means.
You said, "Indeed some misunderstandings might stem from the language barrier but we also sometimes do not understand each other even though we speak the same language." That is absolutely true.
You also said "Ah, do you think your proposal is any suitable for a book discussion thread?" I'm not sure it's a proposal, or that it would be relevant in all book discussions, but I do think it is relevant here. I think it suggests how we identify and relate to Tony. That being said, I don't think Tony should be forgiven :)
And finally, you said, "I always wonder what those executioners feel. Do you think they kind of commit a murder." You know what, I had to look up the dictionary definition to answer LOL I found this:
murder is the unlawful killing, with malice or forethought, of another person. So, by definition, they are not committing murder.
I have always been very strange, and I can actually remember asking my mom in SECOND GRADE if people who fought in wars were committing a sin when they killed someone else in battle. You know, I don't think my mom ever really answered that question. Gee, I wonder why!
Ok, on to the next response. We might have to break these up eventually...they are getting hard to follow.
I like the idea of only a judge, or multiple judges, deciding guilt and innocence. I've heard it said here: 'why would we let 12 people who were not smart enough to get out of jury duty decide who is guilty and innocent?' Actually, in this country, it is fairly common for people to be deemed innocent by reason of insanity, but they are typically then institutionalized, not released into public. It is actually even more common for someone to be institutionalized until they can be deemed capable of trial. Many times, they are in a mental hospital for the rest of their lives, never having reached a level of competence to stand trial. I actually did an internship in one of these units in a local mental institution, and I can honestly say that time did a lot to form my opinions.
We also had a man (he was in his mid-20s) who was bipolar and beat his mother to death during a psychotic break. Was that behavior acceptable? Absolutely not. Is it forgivable? I have no idea, and I pray I never have to figure it out about one of my loved ones.
Hey, now, when did I say I forgive Tony? I don't. I can see how others can, but not me.
Oh, I thought of something else. I'm trying to distract myself with debates while cleaning my house :)You said, For sure it'd be grand if there would be a precise and effective solution for the rehabilitation of criminals which should ensure they'll never commit a crime again becoming a productive member of society.
Can we ensure that anyone will never commit a crime and/or become productive members of society? Of course not, but it's probably not worth arguing considering its a ridiculous premise anyway. I just like to wallow in idealistic dreams every now and again.
This is a very heated thread and I hesitate to comment, but I loved the book(s). The author evoked very strong emotion and at moments while I was reading I thought I could actually feel Claire's agony and fear. There were times I was overwhelmed with the heaviness of the book(s). I had to wait a couple of days to review just to understand that point internally. The really negative strong emotions that the author evoked was actually talent and in five years I will remember this work.Memorable is brilliant. I love to hate Tony and even after the second book I do not trust him. The character of Tony that the author created was terrifying to me. I feel a panic attack coming on just thinking of him.
So I respect the work of fiction and love to hate the character?
Hi Darby...sorry to hear you were hesitant to comment, but so happy you did. I just ignored all the personal attacks and refused to discuss anything but the book..or points that are linked to the book in some way. Not sure if that's the right way to handle it, but it seemed to work for me.I also felt overwhelmed by the book at times, and I don't think I ever did do a review. What would I say??? I finally decided yesterday that I could like the writing--it stirred up emotions and challenged me both mentally and emotionally, but that didn't mean I enjoyed it. It's a small distinction, but it helped me feel a little less conflicted.
I also respect this authors talent...my mind is simply not capable of weaving a story this elaborate. Hell, I was barely able to follow it sometimes. I'm not sure I love to hate the the characters, but I definitely love to talk about them :)
Guten Tag, Ayhan. I do sometimes argue things I don't believe. It is playing Devil's Advocate, but it's more about trying to gather more information and seeing a different point of view. I have discovered I learn most by teaching, as often students ask questions I had not thought of and I have to truly understand what it is I'm teaching to be able to answer. I guess I feel the same way about discussing both sides of a point. Are you familiar with Debate teams in the US? In high school, the debate coach begged me to take it. I declined, although I'm thinking maybe I should have done it LOL I don't mean to be dishonest, I just really think most people have a reason for what they believe, and if they have something I've never even thought of or didn't know, shouldn't I have all the information?
Typically, we consider a drug anything that changes the way your body works. Even prescription medications are technically considered drugs. I personally believe alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs, mostly because it is readily available. I've seen the harmful effects of alcohol far more often than any other drug.
I'm not a doctor, or a psychiatrist. Just a lowly nurse. I've worked in Emergency Rooms for years, and worked on an ambulance service for years before that.
I do not think killing someone while under the influence is forgivable or acceptable. Which goes against my own beliefs that addiction is a disease and should be treated as such.
Nein, kann ich nur Deutsche sprechen. It is too bad...I may study it later, but it's doubtful. At this point, it would be more helpful to study Spanish. (I can still read a little :) ). Americans are so egocentric; we don't think we need to learn anyone else's language. I did it because I am of German heritage, but with no one to speak with it's so difficult to maintain. I live in a very rural area, so there is not much cultural diversity.
I personally LOVE the articles in German. You know male, female, direct object, indirect object just by what "the" is used.
I won't say Tony shouldn't be forgiven...I will say I would not forgive Tony. Honest opinion (I would somehow note when I'm just playing Devil's Advocate, but I think it'd make my point less valid :) )
Oh, when I said break this up, I didn't mean the whole discussion, just all the different points of the discussion...like in different posts. I'm enjoying the conversation.
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Ayhan seems like an intelligent person and I'm hoping that perhaps we misunderstood his original post. I'll admit I skimmed through a good deal of this thread but what I saw made me curious why someone would want to read these books if they didn't like them. Ayhan answered my question, quite nicely, and I appreciated that.
Last night I went back and read through his original post more thoroughly and found the "Obviously most women here are irrational, illogical and , well, not so intelligent." statement which did offend me and I could see why others were too. It all started off on a bad vibe and I'm giving Ayhan the benefit of the doubt due to the language barrier but if he stands by that statement he is entitled to his opinion and I for one know if he does it will not affect how I feel about myself. I still consider myself a logical and intelligent person even if I'm rooting for a Tony/Claire HEA and I think it is because I read this as a work of fiction. Now if this were real life and Claire was a friend of mine my advice would have been "Run Bitch and Don't Look Back!" ;)