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What I really hate about...
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What I really hate in m/m romance stories
message 351:
by
JustJen "Miss Conduct"
(new)
Apr 16, 2013 05:39PM
LOL. I can only imagine. That's why I'm a reader instead of a writer. Ok, that's one reason. :D
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well, after reading through this thread I realized that pretty much everything I've ever written is on someone's shit list. LOL. No big shocker there. :-)I'm doing this new one in first person, present tense from both POVs. That helps with the names because each guy is either me/I or he/him. But I'm sure there are too many of those too.
All I can say is, I'll try to make the sex good to make up for the annoying writing crutches I use.
Aria wrote: "well, after reading through this thread I realized that pretty much everything I've ever written is on someone's shit list. LOL. No big shocker there. :-)I'm doing this new one in first person, p..."
Every book has them, can't think of one that doesn't. We just have to have SOMETHING to complain about. So, please keep writing, cause I will keep reading, promise!
I totally agree with Kendra! Please don't take our complaints too much to heart.
I think this was sort of mentioned before but just a thought:I sort of cant stand how in young adult or coming of age or coming out m/m stories the gay character's parents are either one of two extremes: extremely, extremely welcoming and accepting of their child being gay (with sometimes one of the parents coming out that they are gay as well)or the other extreme of basically disowning their child and kicking him out.
I'd love another depiction! Somewhere in the middle - maybe something like where it's kind of hard for the parents to accept, but the child or even adult still feels that he is loved... Something more realistic and multi-dimensional.
And I don't really hate this, but so many times in the YA LGBT fiction and in even more contemporary adult fiction with teen or young adult characters who are confused about their sexuality there always seems to be a gay person in their town that the kid finds... like a gay shop keeper or a gay restaurant owner or the like that they suddenly find out is gay and then that person becomes sort of their gay mentor which is a great sentiment, but always seemed very forced and fake to me.
Aria wrote: "well, after reading through this thread I realized that pretty much everything I've ever written is on someone's shit list. LOL. No big shocker there. :-)I'm doing this new one in first person, p..."
Aria, I love your stories, keep writing! I am working on my first m/m story and there is no way you can avoid all of the pet peeves that readers have with m/m stories, (myself included.) Think of them as more general guidelines and try not to let them affect your writing decisions... I was thinking the same thing when I read this thread.
I hate to tell you this Kim, but the MC's names are some of those words that have a free pass, so you can use them as many times as you need as long as it's not in the same sentence (there it would be redundant).
I hate it when a book is written well and I'm enjoying the story waiting for a most excellent sex scene and what I get is...."hot male milk", "tunnel of love", "big daddy & mini me (for the penis of course)". Way to pull a girl out of the freaking story!!
Shannon wrote: "I hate it when a book is written well and I'm enjoying the story waiting for a most excellent sex scene and what I get is...."hot male milk", "tunnel of love", "big daddy & mini me (for the penis o..."*snort* -- we are definitely not reading the same books. lol
Kim wrote: "Shannon wrote: "I hate it when a book is written well and I'm enjoying the story waiting for a most excellent sex scene and what I get is...."hot male milk", "tunnel of love", "big daddy & mini me ..."Huh? What in the world are you reading? Are you reading the beginners guide to nipple play, carnival rides and Austin Powers?
Kendra wrote: "Kim wrote: "Shannon wrote: "I hate it when a book is written well and I'm enjoying the story waiting for a most excellent sex scene and what I get is...."hot male milk", "tunnel of love", "big dadd..."Stupid challenges!! Hey the book met two job requirements, what more could I ask for....?
Shannon wrote: what more could I ask for....? "Some scrumptious hot male milk to finish it off?
Haha, I've been there too, Shannon. The euphemisms for sex and body parts that some authors write are just awful! I'd rather they not even mention them at all than to read about the tight tunnels and the man meat. Icky icky.
Major English (Laura) wrote: "Haha, I've been there too, Shannon. The euphemisms for sex and body parts that some authors write are just awful! I'd rather they not even mention them at all than to read about the tight tunnels a..."It's enough to turn me off to reading stuff, that's for sure. If you can't use proper terms for the act (unless you are a really lyrical like Josh Lanyon - who's more interested in the emotional part of the whole thing), then why write it at all?
It just makes me laugh that some authors seem embarrassed to write about it. We like the "cock" and the "dick", no need to act like we're talking to children. "He licked his pee-pee while rubbing his poopie hole" lmao.
Shannon wrote: "He licked his pee-pee while rubbing his poopie hole" lmao." I love it! Permission to plagiarise please for my next story?
I'm writing a story for the love has no boundaries event in the m/m romance group and as a first time author, I have to say it was definitely awkward writing a sexy scene, because it was like my brain had amnesia and I was like "do authors actually talk about come? And balls? Do they actually mention this stuff!!?" and I couldn't for the life of me remember a sex scene in a book I read and I felt like a giant perv. But I got over it! So you will see no tight tunnels or man pole from me, haha. It's not insanely graphic, and I definitely involved emotions, but the idea of calling a penis anything other than a penis, cock or dick never once entered my mind!
Major English (Laura) wrote: "I'm writing a story for the love has no boundaries event in the m/m romance group and as a first time author, I have to say it was definitely awkward writing a sexy scene, because it was like my b..."And we thank you for that! I know I couldn't write a sex scene but were I ever to try there would be some nasty stuff involved. Then I'd have my friends read it and make fun of me, or help me maybe. :)
Danni wrote: "Shannon wrote: "He licked his pee-pee while rubbing his poopie hole" lmao." I love it! Permission to plagiarise please for my next story?"Okaaaay, if you must.
Shannon wrote: "Major English (Laura) wrote: "I'm writing a story for the love has no boundaries event in the m/m romance group and as a first time author, I have to say it was definitely awkward writing a sexy sc..."Haha it definitely was a strange expeirience writing it, but after reading it over I was like "ok, I think this is ok, this doesn't sound strange."
Major English (Laura) wrote: "I sort of cant stand how in young adult or coming of age or coming out m/m stories the gay character's parents are either one of two extremes: extremely, extremely welcoming and accepting of their child being gay (with sometimes one of the parents coming out that they are gay as well)or the other extreme of basically disowning their child and kicking him out."Laura, in my experience from counselling gay youth, only 2% of parents forcibly expel the child from the home. Another 5% of parents are miffed but get over it. Accordingly, the vast majority are extremely, extremely welcoming and accepting of their child being gay. Many knew beforehand from reading the child's footprints. Non-acceptance is not a consideration, the love for their child determines outcomes.
So this statistic is probably why the welcoming and acceptance story theme is dominant, it certainly is in my books.
You also wrote: so many times in the YA LGBT fiction and in even more contemporary adult fiction with teen or young adult characters who are confused about their sexuality there always seems to be a gay person in their town that the kid finds... like a gay shop keeper or a gay restaurant owner or the like that they suddenly find out is gay and then that person becomes sort of their gay mentor which is a great sentiment, but always seemed very forced and fake to me.
Shopkeepers/business people, particularly small-town main street operators, are often regarded in an elevated position. Afterall, they are the entrepreneurs providing goods, services and employment and become well known to townsfolk, including questioning guys. Applying the generally recognised statistic, it can be expected that one in ten to twenty of those business people is likely to harbour gay inclinations or compassionate attitudes. Accordingly, it's not unrealistic at all, in my opinion, to encounter the abundance of stories of the type you mention.
In several of my experiences, the boy's boss turned out to provide some mentoring role because he happened to have a gay son and could thus read the boy's signs. Happens with some school teachers too.
I hope this may be meaningful to you.
Cheers
Justin
Justin wrote: "Major English (Laura) wrote: "I sort of cant stand how in young adult or coming of age or coming out m/m stories the gay character's parents are either one of two extremes: extremely, extremely wel..."Hi Justin,
Yes in real life certainly I would take all of these things into consideration... The particular story I'm thinking of when the gay teen encounters a shop owner who befriends him is not unrealistic in a larger scheme of things, it just felt too convenient in the particular story. It just felt like here is this confused young man who happens to stroll into a shop and the shop owner is nice and although not out himself, they somehow have found each other and befriend one another. So from a plot stand point it feels unrealistic. In real life, I of course think support is important and would want kids to reach out to adults.
Also in regard to parents being extremely welcoming, I was thinking of a book I just read when one of the MCs finally comes out, his dad revealed he too was gay, which again, I don't think happens too too often, though I'm sure it does. But in a book context I think it just makes it easier on the writer to not have to delve into emotions or anything in regards to this and it makes the whole coming out scene a lot less gripping to me, same thing when parents are very very welcoming immediately. In a book I think it just makes things too neat and tidy sometimes. I think there is definitely an enormous area in between "Son, I'm gay too." or "Son, we know and we love you." to "Son, get out of our house." and I think that it is in that huge area in between those two extremes (for a lack of a better word) that shows emotions and thoughts and feelings other than just a one sentence reply. And I think actually showing emotions would more accurately portray how things happen in real life. I think even the most loving and accepting of families still may need a moment to process the information. I don't think it's as easy as a quick one-page conversation in a book that's 200 pages long.
I'm glad so many youths you see have supportive families!
Hi Laura,I've read a similar story of the father coming out on his son's announcement. To me it seems awkward and irregular and doesn't track true. Afterall, the wife and family's feelings are at play and the situation can end in major upheaval, which I think occurred in the story, not something the poor kid would have wanted.
I've never struck the complexity in real life, though if it can happen, it will. Like with most scenes, how the writer approaches a topic is a gamble, ending in gripping writing or less so.
However, on the issue of when parents are very very welcoming immediately, I have to repeat that my counselling experience indicates a very high immediate acceptance rate. You have to understand that parents get to know their kids, their likes, dislikes and so on. Don't you think a mum would start to form opinions when her son never chats about girls, only has male friends, only parties and hangs out with males and whose eyes light up when a boy band or a speedo clad lifesafer etc, appears on telly? That's what happens and when convinced, good parents will just wait for the boy to make his announcement in his own good time.
I have fond memories of the numerous boys who have reported back within minutes of hyping themselves up to tell their parents, each saying, virtually identically, Geez, that was easy, they knew all the time!
At the opposite extreme, many of the boys fretted over their parent's likely reactions, making counselling a fragile process. If they answered yes to the question Do your parents love you? then I knew they'd be okay. For loving parents are not chameleons. As previously said they may be jolted and disappointed (e.g. no grandchildren) but in the end normality returns.
I do agree that a one page offering may not be adequate for an emotional coming out scene. It is usually a harrowing, mind-churning process from thought to deed in any but the most confident boys and deserves appropriate consideration and ink.
As for the convenience of the boy meeting the shopkeeper, you're obviously disappointed about the author's chosen approach. As inferred earlier, the potential incidence of a boy meeting a sympathetic shopkeeper, at least in a tolerant country, is about 5 to 10 per 100 shopfronts.
Major English (Laura) wrote: "The particular story I'm thinking of when the gay teen encounters a shop owner who befriends him is not unrealistic in a larger scheme of things, it just felt too convenient in the particular story. "I met a guy when I was still a teen who was not the owner of a store but was the assistant manager of a retail chain. When I saw him my gaydar went off. There were other employees around so I asked him if he could help me out with an item.When we got to the shelves away from everyone I asked him if he would like to go out to dinner. He said yes. Unfortunately he brought a friend along (in case I was some kind of nut.) But later he gave me his phone number and e next time we went out it was just the two of us.
He became my boyfriend for two years. He wasn't out but I was. Even though he was only 19, he had a one year old son whose mother wasn't interested in being a mom so by court order he became the sole parent. (Why did a gay guy have a son? These things happen.) He didn't want to come out.
After two years it became apparent he was never going to come out so we would never have a public life together as a family. Eventually that is why I told him if we were going to have a life together I couldn't live with our relationship being a secret. He didn't want his son to grow up knowing his father was gay. He didn't want his son to face harassment for having two fathers. Since that meant no chance of a living as a normal gay couple albeit with a kid, I ended our relationship—although it hurt. A lot.
I suppose that sounds far fetched too. Well I guess in a M/M Romance book we would have stayed together as a family and had a HAE complete with a marriage down the road when NY made it legal two years ago.
The point here is that you can just walk into a shop and meet some who is not out and also gay men are sometimes fathers even though the all that sounds like really bad fiction.
Boyd wrote: "Major English (Laura) wrote: "The particular story I'm thinking of when the gay teen encounters a shop owner who befriends him is not unrealistic in a larger scheme of things, it just felt too conv..."Thats a bittersweet story Boyd, I actually do believe that love can happen anywhere. I think that's so sad and another crappy case of society's stupid intolerances ruining what obviously could have been a loving relationship if only people could live and let live. What a damn shame!
I hate love triangles. Like really. Urrggh. (I would do an exclamation mark after the 'urrggh', but I won't. This is how much I hate love triangles.
Any odd number is always awkward. Squares, Hexagrams, Octagons for me any day ;)
Shannon wrote: "And my heart just broke for Boyd :("Ditto!
Also, it's been my experience that a good number of gay people do have het sex and even relationships before they recognize their orientation is not het. Several of the women my daughter had relationships with had children, having married young, under societal pressure to conform. Also, because they always dreamed of having children, and it's (again) society's accepted way to do so.
Later in life, as the relationship floundered, they came to realize why. Many knew, going in, that they would not desire their partner or enjoy sex, but gave in to pressure and others' expectations. Others found out afterwards, when they had the courage to try sex with someone of their own gender, usually in an illicit affair.
The conclusion, for me, is that anything and everything is possible. Where authors have to tread carefully is in making it seem too "easy" or "pat." It's not. I'm sure Boyd had to gather his courage to invite his guy out. So many possible pitfalls! Not to mention the commitment required for someone so young to persevere for two years, trying to make a hidden relationship work.
And I do know what you mean, Major English (Laura). The first book I read by Mary Calmes, though touted by other M/M Romance readers as excellent, had me completely frustrated and annoyed. I'm talking about Change of Heart. At a given point in the plot, one of the MCs needed to meet, face to face, with some other guys to confirm if they were mates or not. What do you know! The moment he walked out of a restaurant, he met each of the guys walking along down the street! Except the other MC, of course!
That puts "easy" and "pat" in the realm of understatement, IMO. It's ridiculous and a show of laziness on the part of the author, who didn't want to invest the time and brain cells required to write a believable way for the guys to meet and achieve the desired end result. It took years before I could make myself read something else by her, and then only because several GR friends whom I trust gave the book good ratings. My 2nd try went better, Frog, but still only 3 stars.
Well, talking about odd numbers. I hate when polyamory stories have members of the group as mere accessories and not real partners. A prime example of a good triad is the men of Swithin Chronicles Uly's Comet
But pretty young things make such fine accessories... ok ok don't beat me, I'm kidding.
Gabbo wrote: "Well, talking about odd numbers. I hate when polyamory stories have members of the group as mere accessories and not real partners. A prime example of a good triad is the men of Swithin Chronicle..."
My absolute favorite M/M/M story is Fun With Dick and Shane. Followed by Dark Horse. No accessories there. Nope. Not a one.
Fangtasia wrote: "Gabbo wrote: "Well, talking about odd numbers. I hate when polyamory stories have members of the group as mere accessories and not real partners. A prime example of a good triad is the men of Swi..."
lmao, yeah no accessories in Fun w/ Dick and Shane. :)
Shannon wrote: "lmao, yeah no accessories in Fun w/ Dick and Shane."Unless you count the anal jewels in Gilliflowers ;)
Shannon, come and join us in the Gillifans group http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/9...
So much good input and real life stories. Thank you all for sharing. And thanks for your input, Fantagsia. I was only talking about coming out/parent scenarios as I have read them in stories and acts of fiction. I never ever meant it to relate to real life people or real life occurrences. It was a critique of writing/plot development. Sometimes when you read things in stories, whether it be dialogue or characterizations or what have you, it just reads as unrealistic, so it was just a general assessment.
I would never ever think or say that anything that has happened to anyone in real life sounds like bad fiction... We all have different life experiences and are complex individuals and I very much appreciate that about people. Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts!
Hi Boyd,You wrote: "I suppose that sounds far fetched too. Well I guess in a M/M Romance book we would have stayed together as a family and had a HAE complete with a marriage down the road when NY made it legal two years ago."
No, it doesn't sound far fetched at all. What a shame you couldn't have enjoyed your HEA. Yours is a wonderful and tender romance story worth putting into words. Why don't you, one day?
Cheers.
Boyd wrote: "Major English (Laura) wrote: "The particular story I'm thinking of when the gay teen encounters a shop owner who befriends him is not unrealistic in a larger scheme of things, it just felt too conv..."He obviously didn't realize that having an honest and loving father (whether it is one or two) will matter more at the end of the day than what children will say.
Firstly, I agree with all of the above in regards to Boyd's story including the making of it into a story with a HEA.Secondly, I just came across another thing I hate in mm books, that being when the guy or guys fall into deep sleep almost immediately after they finish. They can't even stay awake long enough to say two words? Just nod off like they have narcolepsy. It just strikes me as extremely odd.
JustJen wrote: "Firstly, I agree with all of the above in regards to Boyd's story including the making of it into a story with a HEA.Secondly, I just came across another thing I hate in mm books, that being when..."
Hmm, doesn't strike me as odd at all. I sometimes fall asleep right in the middle of it.
Oh, Danni, please tell me you're kidding. :-(And this latest event was the first time they've had sex. I would like to think the excitement level is such at that stage that they should be able to stay awake for longer than it takes for the evidence to dry.
JustJen wrote: "Oh, Danni, please tell me you're kidding. :-(And this latest event was the first time they've had sex. I would like to think the excitement level is such at that stage that they should be able t..."
Lol no need for the sad face cos seriously, after the 12th orgasm l'm pretty much done.
LMAO. OK. That makes it a little better. :D
I think men, drily observed, have two post-coital modes, flee or sleep. The latter being, I suppose, preferable to the plot.
Danni wrote: "JustJen wrote: "Oh, Danni, please tell me you're kidding. :-(And this latest event was the first time they've had sex. I would like to think the excitement level is such at that stage that they ..."
How does that work for twinkgasms? :D
So, in all seriousness, this is a normal thing? Just conking out immediately after, especially after your first time together?
Macky wrote: "How does that work for twinkgasms? :D"They're a little like dog years. 1 twinkgasm is worth 7 normal ones.
In all seriousness, I don't think falling asleep straight after is that unusual, although maybe a bit rude for a first time.
I'm clearly exaggerating the poor reputation of us of the male species, for effect. But I do suspect there is biology involved. We have been known to pleasure ourselves when we want to sleep but can't, and have no ready outlet. Though it is terribly rude, but could also, under the right circumstances, be romantic. To feel safe enough with someone to curl up with them.
Perhaps it is the execution I often see being used. Of all the times I have seen this happen in stories, it is not when they are curled up cuddling after that they drift off, which would totally not strike me as odd, just so you don't all think I'm totally looped. It is written as a much more drastic occurrence.
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