Complaint Department discussion
What I really hate about...
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What I really hate in m/m romance stories
I really hate it when authors use the term "Ballerina Boy Hole". Wait, that was Aves! lol
Great notes guys! I'm making sure to add ALL of this to my next story.
Kendra wrote: "...I...would love a couple recommendations for gay male love stories..."
I doubt you could find a definition of Gay Male Fiction involving romance or love stories that would suit everyones concept of the genre so I am using my own notions of what I consider to be books in the category.
I also doubt the authors intended these books to be for only for a male audience but I perceive them to be more for a gay male audience than for a straight female readership. I am certain the authors would be very pleased to have woman readers enjoy their books and I know some women do. The three authors listed below coincidentally are all members of the Complaint Department (as well as the M/M Romance group.) However, I did not select these books because the authors were members here. I just think these books are good examples.
The adventure/romance Thunderbolt:Torn Enemy of Rome by Roger Kean set during the Second Punic War is one of the books I view as gay male romance. It an intelligent, well paced and well plotted book that is absolutely historically accurate except in its fictionalized account of the young, beautiful, brave and honorable Malco the protagonist. My review is at http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Other's might include the books in Zack's Boys of... gay male romance series including Boys of Disco City which continues to explore the lives and loves of Mike and Gil set in a more freewheeling time in the 1970-80s. This book only has four ratings on Goodreads all by men.The first book in this series about Mike and Gil Boys of Vice City has three ratings on GR by men, five by women and one by a person of unknown gender. These books are illustrated by Zack one of the world's most famous artists of gay male erotic art. These books are put out by the German publishing company Bruno Gmünder which is well known for catering to male customers.
The paranormal gay male romance series Pledged to Magic (see: http://www.goodreads.com/series/77292...) which includes: Apprenticed to Pleasure, Conjuring the Flesh, and Sex Rites by Brandon Fox is has been read and highly rated mostly by men on Goodreads however a few women liked the trilogy too.
I hope this reply is helpful to you Kendra.
I doubt you could find a definition of Gay Male Fiction involving romance or love stories that would suit everyones concept of the genre so I am using my own notions of what I consider to be books in the category.
I also doubt the authors intended these books to be for only for a male audience but I perceive them to be more for a gay male audience than for a straight female readership. I am certain the authors would be very pleased to have woman readers enjoy their books and I know some women do. The three authors listed below coincidentally are all members of the Complaint Department (as well as the M/M Romance group.) However, I did not select these books because the authors were members here. I just think these books are good examples.
The adventure/romance Thunderbolt:Torn Enemy of Rome by Roger Kean set during the Second Punic War is one of the books I view as gay male romance. It an intelligent, well paced and well plotted book that is absolutely historically accurate except in its fictionalized account of the young, beautiful, brave and honorable Malco the protagonist. My review is at http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Other's might include the books in Zack's Boys of... gay male romance series including Boys of Disco City which continues to explore the lives and loves of Mike and Gil set in a more freewheeling time in the 1970-80s. This book only has four ratings on Goodreads all by men.The first book in this series about Mike and Gil Boys of Vice City has three ratings on GR by men, five by women and one by a person of unknown gender. These books are illustrated by Zack one of the world's most famous artists of gay male erotic art. These books are put out by the German publishing company Bruno Gmünder which is well known for catering to male customers.
The paranormal gay male romance series Pledged to Magic (see: http://www.goodreads.com/series/77292...) which includes: Apprenticed to Pleasure, Conjuring the Flesh, and Sex Rites by Brandon Fox is has been read and highly rated mostly by men on Goodreads however a few women liked the trilogy too.
I hope this reply is helpful to you Kendra.
Kendra wrote: "I am truly devastateed that I didn't realize that there was a difference."
@ Kendra—Here are two resources that might help you in thinking about the issue of M/M versus Gay.
(1) Note that in one of the M/M Romance Group's Gayology discussions there is a topic "M/M" vs. "gay" which you can reach quickly by usng this link:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
(2) You might want to peruse these two lists from Goodreads' Listopia.
Please keep in mind that anyone can add a book to a list and almost no one agrees on what exactly is M/M and what is gay in fiction so don't take the list as being definitive or authoritative. The list is just the perceptions of the hundreds of people who listed and vote for these books.
The list for "Best M/M Romance Published in 2012" can be found at this link:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/15...
The list for Best Gay Fiction can be found at this link:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/44...
@ Kendra—Here are two resources that might help you in thinking about the issue of M/M versus Gay.
(1) Note that in one of the M/M Romance Group's Gayology discussions there is a topic "M/M" vs. "gay" which you can reach quickly by usng this link:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
(2) You might want to peruse these two lists from Goodreads' Listopia.
Please keep in mind that anyone can add a book to a list and almost no one agrees on what exactly is M/M and what is gay in fiction so don't take the list as being definitive or authoritative. The list is just the perceptions of the hundreds of people who listed and vote for these books.
The list for "Best M/M Romance Published in 2012" can be found at this link:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/15...
The list for Best Gay Fiction can be found at this link:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/44...
I wish to register my displeasure at our host's mathematical/observational skills. Boys of Vice City does not have three ratings by men and one by a person of unknown gender. I should know because l rated it myself and l am neither male or of unknown gender (in fact l just checked down my pants and yep l'm neither of those things).
Amused, may I say to assure Preston I mean total respect because your description of mm tropes was totally on target. ;)
Danni wrote: "I wish to register my displeasure at our host's mathematical/observational skills. Boys of Vice City does not have three ratings by men and one by a person of unknown gender. I should know becaus..."
I recounted but this time I think I might have come up with the right numbers because I used my toes instead of my fingers and I count better on my toes. More women than men rated Boys of Vice City by the legendary gay creative genius Zack and of the five woman one of them gave it a 4 star **** rating and four of the female readers gave it a 5 star ***** rating.
For those who would like to now more about Zack and his work especially the art I recommend using this link to take a look at http://www.zack-art.com
Don't skip taking a glance at the thumbnails of his Hi-Rezs JPEGS at: http://zack-art.com/#/jpeg-page-1/455...
At the above link you can see a miniscule version of a really nice piece of art entitled Rouge Goes Rock Climbing in the lower left. Unfortunately the "sensitive" body parts have been blurred but you can get the idea.
I am also the very proud owner of three of his graphic novels (comic books) including: Hot For Boys: The Sexy Adventures Of Rogue 94 pages in superporn erotic color; Bike Boy 96 pages of guys with artistically erect correct members and beauteous bubble bottoms and with penetrative insight into gay male sex; and more of the same only with copulating copious, gorgeous, orgy filled panels on 96 pages in Bike Boy Rides Again. The books are astonishingly in their beauty and detail.
I was unbelievably blessed to receive these as gifts from my two most highly beloved friends but if you are interested in getting the amazing quality softcover books published by Bruno Gmünder, they are available from Amazon in several countries.
I recounted but this time I think I might have come up with the right numbers because I used my toes instead of my fingers and I count better on my toes. More women than men rated Boys of Vice City by the legendary gay creative genius Zack and of the five woman one of them gave it a 4 star **** rating and four of the female readers gave it a 5 star ***** rating.
For those who would like to now more about Zack and his work especially the art I recommend using this link to take a look at http://www.zack-art.com
Don't skip taking a glance at the thumbnails of his Hi-Rezs JPEGS at: http://zack-art.com/#/jpeg-page-1/455...
At the above link you can see a miniscule version of a really nice piece of art entitled Rouge Goes Rock Climbing in the lower left. Unfortunately the "sensitive" body parts have been blurred but you can get the idea.
I am also the very proud owner of three of his graphic novels (comic books) including: Hot For Boys: The Sexy Adventures Of Rogue 94 pages in super
I was unbelievably blessed to receive these as gifts from my two most highly beloved friends but if you are interested in getting the amazing quality softcover books published by Bruno Gmünder, they are available from Amazon in several countries.
Lucas wrote: "I hate stories which read like they were heterosexual bodice rippers where the author just changed the pronoun from she to he and one guy is a short, thin, long-hared and effeminate total bottom an..."Hate those too. And the criers...none of the men I know do that. Hell, none of the women I know do that either.
We might complain about m/m romance but recently I decided to read some m/f romance and erotica and I have been left running for the m/m hills. Flee! flee to safety. Of course it could simply be that I havent come across really good m/f authors yet, but at the moment m/m and comtemporary gay fiction like Michael Nava and Richard Stevenson (mystery writers not so much romance) remain at the top of my list.
I'm going to put a good word in for our poor maligned m/m romances..... But for them we wouldn't all be GR friends. ( was starting to feel a bit sorry for them! ) and I've read some really good ones! I knooooow ... it's a complaining thread but I'm a big softie. Sue me!!!
Macky wrote: "I'm going to put a good word in for our poor maligned m/m romances..... But for them we wouldn't all be GR friends. ( was starting to feel a bit sorry for them! ) and I've read some really good on..."I have to agree and also I really like the way m/m authors interact with their readers.
Ijeoma wrote: "Macky wrote: "I'm going to put a good word in for our poor maligned m/m romances..... But for them we wouldn't all be GR friends. ( was starting to feel a bit sorry for them! ) and I've read some ..."Me too.. Friendly and helpful.
Ijeoma wrote: "We might complain about m/m romance but recently I decided to read some m/f romance and erotica and I have been left running for the m/m hills. Flee! flee to safety. Of course it could simply be..."
I recently found a title that I thought would be interesting in the m/f romance genre and gave it a shot. Yeah, no, too bad they all sound like "Twilight" now, so I DID run back to the m/m hills.
Don't get me wrong, I freakin' ate up those books in like, a week (please don't throw tomatoes at me, we all have our moments), but I don't want to read regurgitated voices, actions and feelings in all of my books now.
Lucas wrote: "Don't skip taking a glance at the thumbnails of his Hi-Rezs JPEGS at: http://zack-art.com/#/jpeg-page-1/455...At the above link you can see a miniscule version of..."
On behalf of Zack I've made a liar of Lucas <-loud sniffs of remorse->. Even as he was writing these nice things about Zack's art, as webmaster I was tidying up the "JPEG pages" to make them tablet/phone friendly, so there are new pages now at:
http://zack-art.com/#/jpeg-page-1/457...
and there's a total of five pages of them.
Macky wrote: "I know no one is saying they hate m/m romance. If I offended then I apologise but please don't make your reply sound like a lecture, I'm not stupid. I'm having a bad today and I don't need it."
Truly sorry about the bad day Macky. ;-(
I deleted my "lecture" in the hope the gesture would please you. We know you are not stupid. I'm the dumb jock here. It's my job to be stupid.
How could anyone think you were anything but absolutely brilliant because of the immensely creative and clever stories you create and are so generous to share with us.
I hope tomorrow will be a much better day.
hugs, Lucas
Truly sorry about the bad day Macky. ;-(
I deleted my "lecture" in the hope the gesture would please you. We know you are not stupid. I'm the dumb jock here. It's my job to be stupid.
How could anyone think you were anything but absolutely brilliant because of the immensely creative and clever stories you create and are so generous to share with us.
I hope tomorrow will be a much better day.
hugs, Lucas
Lucas wrote: "Macky wrote: "I know no one is saying they hate m/m romance. If I offended then I apologise but please don't make your reply sound like a lecture, I'm not stupid. I'm having a bad today and I don't..."Thanks sweetie. Sorry for being a crabby old beeeeach! You are far from stupid and I'm just feeling a bit depressed with my stupid ' condition' that gets me down every now and again. I've just had a weepy day. I still love you loads! Onwards and upwards and back on form tomorrow! I'm deleting my silly tantrum too!!
Oh, and I hate that in m/m (on the writing end) sometimes you have to stop in the middle, too exhausted to go on, and go to sleep. Which NEVER happens in life.
Goesta wrote: "No idea what just happened, I was in the middle of sex (writing!!), but I'm so glad you guys worked it out while I was distracted. I'm teleporting the best "hunky hug" in my arsenal to you right no..."Thanks G. Im wallowing in your hot, delicious hunky hug and loving it. :)
I was just having a ' female ' moment and poor Lucas got the brunt...
Goesta is being a right slapper today!
Yes if you look up 'right slapper' in the Oxford English Dictionary the definition will be: one who spreads sloppy puppy love left, right and centre.Don't go blaming me for your leaky moment {Danni flounces off in a huff}
I really hate to change the topic from the sloppy puppy love/hugfest that sounds totally theraputic, but I really hate when guys wake up in the morning and jump right into making out with no care about morning breath and that in some I even read where they actually enjoy it.
Goesta wrote: "Danni: I looked it up. So glad I was right. And you're right, not your fault, I'm just a softie (except when I'm ... you know ... not ... which is often).JusJen: I also don't actually believe the..."
It's funny that you guys mentioned this because that, morning sex, is something that pulls me out of a story and mainly because of what my husband once told me. This may be TMI but he told me not to wake him in the morning with a *clears throat in embarrassment* BJ because he would be more likely to pee than come.
Wow, I should probably not post this but oh well :-)
Glad to have my theory confirmed, all the same ;)
I hate incest and hard forms of bdsm. religious fanactics. not really a lover of menage.
I also hate that mm books make it seem as though the vast majority of gay men love and even crave giving blow jobs when I just have a hard time believing it to be true.
JustJen wrote: "I also hate that mm books make it seem as though the vast majority of gay men love and even crave giving blow jobs when I just have a hard time believing it to be true."Lol, here's a joke for you:
Q Why does a bride smile so much when she walks down the aisle?
A Because she knows she's done her last blow job.
LOL. Funny. To clarify, I don't hate every story that contains some of this stuff that we complain about hating, but that they often have them in excess.
JustJen wrote: "I also hate that mm books make it seem as though the vast majority of gay men love and even crave giving blow jobs when I just have a hard time believing it to be true."What's not to like? :P
Haha, it's too early in the morning to be laughing this much Goesta!
I am silently cheering because I loved and almost totally understood your entire post, Goesta, and just minutes after waking no less! It has been a long time for me as well since I have sampled other equipment, and my post, by no means, reflects my personal feelings on the subject. I just find it odd that it is portrayed as such in mm, though I imagine that goes right along with other issues we don't want to read about, such as the necessity for other bodily functions.
On another slightly related note, it has always bugged me to see, during my visual research, men giving extremely lackluster performances in this area. My thoughts have always been that men should be experts, as they know exactly what's what. Clearly this is not the case, as many men can barely manage to take more than the glorious helmet. Not that I expect every man to be able to "go all the way" but c'mon! Somewhat related to this is that your piccy prompt for LHNB story contains Logan McCree who, from my vast research, has shown to be an inspiring expert in this field. :)
Yes I agree. Especially since I am reading this at work and laughing. Trying not to laugh too loud.
JustJen wrote: "men giving extremely lackluster performances in this area."That's got me puzzled too, and disappointed. Every gay man I know has managed to get around his gag reflex sooner or later. Of course with pornos, one must remember:
They're on stage, lights blazing, crew churning around (except if more amateur or, recently, digital), I'm amazed they can get it up at all (do they still have fluffers nowadays? I always thought that would be an amusing résumé item). Nervous tension, as all actors know, affects the throat quite severely.
They may not be attracted to their partner and/or his equipment at all. Loosening up for me requires really wanting that man inside my mouth, it's a very passive and vulnerable relaxation, as on the other end. I think it's actually easier to ignore who you're doing (or being done by) anally than orally.
They may not be gay/bi (used to be the norm that porn actors were mostly straight/bi, nowadays I don't know).
They may be gay, turned on and willing, but simply physically too tight in the jaws (endowments do tend to be above average in porn; I might permanently gag on some of those behemoths I fear).
The director might mistakenly assume our seeing the rest of the erection is somehow more exciting.
Going all the way down and up repeatedly IS hard (as opposed to sliding back & forth slightly, with most of the length firmly in) and as tear-inducing for me as for some of the performers who manage it, and it looks painful even if it may not be (veins bulging in red face, tears etc.) So this may be one of the many activities where the vicarious visual and actual pleasure don't match. Like being deep inside your partner's other hole and just staying there for minutes on end. Best moments, worst movie.
All good points that are easy to forget. I'd be happy if they all met in the middle so to speak. :)I never thought about the mouth as the part having anxiety or performance issues. :D
JustJen wrote: "I never thought about the mouth as the part having anxiety or performance issues. :D"I'm just thinking about my stage actors having to do voice exercises to relax, and the inexperienced ones still starting off all clenched and squeaky (speaking, I mean).
And of course you're right, I mean, here I am paying good money and getting barely a lick out of it. I guess art imitates life more often than we imagine.
WHich reminds me of another peeve, though I don't know how frequent it is in m/m. Men uncomfortable with their sexuality who don't kiss men but have no problem effing them.
Ohhhh, I love hating that one! The whole "I don't kiss because it's too intimate, so let's just get to the sex" deal.
Lucas wrote: "I hate menage."Just found this thread. Totally with you on this. Tried it when I was your age and wasn't my cup of tea. Although seeing photos of spit roasting is kind of hot.
JustJen wrote: "Oh, and I hate when they always call each others names out. Do people really do that?"I have never heard of anyone doing this.
Goesta wrote: "Danni: I looked it up. So glad I was right. And you're right, not your fault, I'm just a softie (except when I'm ... you know ... not ... which is often).JusJen: I also don't actually believe the rumour that we are supposed to be most sexually enthusiastic in the morning. I think this is a myth because of the morning wood, which is purely physiological but usually comes with an urge to pee when awakening rather than what is being advertised. Also, I'm just not a morning person, takes me half an hour and two coffees to figure out whether there's even anybody in the bed other than me. Which of course means it would be nice if there were, since then maybe they'd bring me my coffee (and a toothbrush, check!), and then MAYBE they'd get their reward."
My husband loves sex in the morning. At night, at our age, too much wine affects the equipment, whereas in the AM all factors have been reset. There are obsticals: I need to put in my contacts, he needs to let the dogs out, I need to douch, he needs it bloody hot in the bedroom, but we do manage.
JustJen wrote: "I also hate that mm books make it seem as though the vast majority of gay men love and even crave giving blow jobs when I just have a hard time believing it to be true."My husband and I both love blow jobs. However we usually don't climax that way as we move on to anal sex. I keep hearing that a lot of gay guys don't engage in anal sex. That I find hard to believe.
JustJen wrote: "Ohhhh, I love hating that one! The whole "I don't kiss because it's too intimate, so let's just get to the sex" deal."Personally I think it's the straight men doing gay porn for money. It goes to the thought that you aren't really gay if you only top (a hole is a hole) and don't kiss (kissing is for fags).
This all feeds into my pet peeve of "Boi Pussy" which is demeaning to the bottom and to women.
Two things to add:The electric shock the guys feel the first time they touch. Unless I've been zipping around in my socks on the carpet, I've never felt a shock touching someone in my life.
The GFY guy, maybe after having his first kiss or his first sexual experience, decides "I'm not going to analyze my feelings for that right now" or whatever variation of that the author uses. Every time that phrase comes up I wanna slap someone.
Ajax1978 wrote: "Two things to add:The electric shock the guys feel the first time they touch. Unless I've been zipping around in my socks on the carpet, I've never felt a shock touching someone in my life.
The ..."
What's even worse is when the author actually has them jump because of said "electric shock." I just picture that they stuck their fingers in a light socket and now look fried or something.
I too read this electric shock crap, however there is something that you feel, but I think most people call it chemistry. There is something different about someone you are very attracted to.Oh and GFY not analyzing feelings? It's not just GFY guys, it's a general GUY thing. Only women have feelings, most guys do not want to be in touch with their feelings. Remember in school and just being an adolescent, males are constantly schooled to sublimate their feelings, to be a man and keep it bottled up inside.
Kendra wrote: "What's even worse is when the author actually has them jump because of said "electric shock." I just picture that they stuck their fingers in a light socket and now look fried or something. "Ouch (in several ways). Maybe I've unconsciously satirized that whole idea in my WiP? Well, too late now. Have to, erhm (how DO you spell that, s.o. please help! Also, do you prefer um, or umh, or umm ... ?), CHARGE ahead regardless now ... ;oP
Goesta, I am almost always up for sex, my husband however is not, so I take it whenever he offers!
Goesta wrote: "wirhimmrs: (just read for the first time:) "his pucker" (n.)-- I'm sorry, which sexy body part would that be again???"
Silly, Goesta. That would be the rosebud, of course. :)
JustJen wrote: "Goesta wrote: "wirhimmrs: (just read for the first time:) "his pucker" (n.)-- I'm sorry, which sexy body part would that be again???"
Silly, Goesta. That would be the rosebud, of course. :)"
I thought it was the winking eye of the secret passageway? But rosebud works!
Complaint Department
Books mentioned in this topic
Try (other topics)Fearless (other topics)
Thunderbolt: Torn Enemy of Rome (other topics)
A Life Apart (other topics)
Gregory's Story (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Roger Kean (other topics)Chris O'Guinn (other topics)
Roger Kean (other topics)
Roger Kean (other topics)
Jim Grimsley (other topics)
More...
A Life Apart by Complaint Department member Roger Kean is a book I would consider to be a gay male love story rather than a M/M romance. It is a Book of the Month selection at both the M/M Romance Group and in the Queereaders group.
Chapter 9 is available as a free excerpt of the book at this link:
http://pastehtml.com/view/crdmw4gnm.rtx
It is historical fiction set primarily in North Africa in 1884 during the Mahdist Wars fought by British and Egyptian soldiers in the Sudan. It is available in paperback and for Kindle at Amazon.com and for other eBook readers at Smashwords.com. You can read the blurb for the book by clicking on this image of the book cover.