Clockwork Prince
discussion
Cassandra Clare... Too Predictable?
I do agree on the fact that Cassandra Clare's books are amazing. That said I do not agree that her books were predictable. I mean yeah some parts were for exampe the whole Isabelle and Maya situation blowing up in Simon's face, or Luke and Jocelyn having a relationship. But those miniscule details make little to no changes to the plot.
To some extent, I believe that all books are predictable. As readers age and are introduced to more stories, the basic plots become trends that can be noticed in all stories, and we become more in tune to the subtle hints dropped by authors. I personally think that these books have a great balance of surprise and predictability. No one could say that there aren't a great number of twists, and though some may be guessed at several pages before they occur, many still catch us by surprise. Predictability, also, gives us an idea of what to expect from the story. If the main plot trend is identified early on, it either gets our interest or doesn't. For example, reading City of Bones, anyone could guess that Clary isn't a normal teenager and that the story will be one of those finding out you're someone special books. If that is intriguing, you read it. In TID, the character Mortmain obviously wasn't in the plot for no reason at all, but you're allowed to think that he's there simply to help locate Nate. Pages before Jem proposes, you know that he's not visiting Tessa for no reason at all. Etc. But the books are great because of the content and the writing, and for me, what little predictability there is doesn't matter overall. Sorry for the incredibly long answer:)
Tamara wrote: "I really haven't read enough of the books to know if they are predictable. I did find myself a little confused with some rule changes between the prequels and the original stories. I am very OCD wi..."Well, there IS a time period difference....
After reading so many books, I can to some extent predict a little of what happens in some books. But never in Cassandra Clares books. They throw me off and so much happens that I never could have foreseen. They are just that good!! <3
I LOVE her books but I don't think they are all to predictable I mean -in city of bones- who would've geussed that jace and clary are "brother and sister" or that -in clockwork prince- who would've thought that Will is "cursed"
The end of City of Bones and Clockwork Angel and Prince are so NOT predictable.
Ha. Hhahahahahahahahaha. I just finished readin Clockwork Princess. If you haven't read it yet and you think Cassandra Clare is predictable the end will be a slap in the face! Predictable.... bahahahahahahahahaaahahahaha
Let me guess Tessa gets both Will and Jem?
Er I find her incredibly easy to predict. Maybe not as predictable as Maria V Snyder...but maybe.I mean, I knew exactly what was going to happen between Sebastian and Clary in City of Incestual Overtones.
Granted, some of the more convoluted plot turns weren't predictable (the why and how) but most of the major answers to big questions were.
I don't think she's easy to predict. I actually thought that this book was unpredictable. And, whether or not she is predictable or not, I love her books!
I agree with Samantha. Clare is very easy to predict, especially when her books have the same basic plot (like CoB and CA).If you can't predict it it is usually because the stuff she writes come o out of nowhere that you wouldn't have seen it coming because it quite rankly makes no sense.
I knew that she would downplay what Kyle did to Maia, I knew that Simon's vampirism would not be treated as any big deal, I in the second Bane chronicles book that Magnus would not lift a single finger to help anyone out of pure empathy and that Marie Antoinette would be captured by vampires. Seriously the list could go on and on.
Andre wrote: "Let me guess Tessa gets both Will and Jem?"Haha! See! Predictable. I knew that would happen before I even read the book.
Because in her books no main person has to actually sacrifice anything, that was clear even in her first three books, so why should it be different in the others?Also of course Tessa would get Will and Jem, because both are aspects of Jace and everybody knows that Clare is obsessed with characters like Jace. That and Jem is "Asian" for her and considered how she treats that aspect of Magnus she almost seems to have a fetish for that.
Andre wrote: "Because in her books no main person has to actually sacrifice anything, that was clear even in her first three books, so why should it be different in the others?Also of course Tessa would get Wil..."
I noticed the Asian/Magnus thing too. Lol, I thought I was the only one. I think Clare wants to date an Asian guy really badly, and inserts her fantasies into her books. :/
If Clare wants to date an "Asian" I guess she wants to date a stereotype, some sort of picture in her head, not an actual person.That is the problem with her books, they are predictable because they are not actual realistic people, e.g. it is very unlikely that Tessa would not be prejudiced against Chinese people or didn't had to work hard.
If Clare some unpredictable elements it seems rather due to sloppy work. But even then its predictable most of the time.
And personally I don't think she can or even tries to deal with difficult issues, also something very predictable. I mean who here thought that Jem or Jace would ever die? Or that Jonathan's plans will not fail? Or that the Clave will not truly change due to the new Accords.
And speaking of that, why do the "Downworlders" even want to break bread with the Shadowhunters? Would they band together they could defeat the Shadowhunters.
WHAT?! Okay, I like to think of myself as a pretty advanced reader, but I could (almost) never figure out what Cassandra Clare was going to do.
What do you mean you couldn't figure it out? What were the few exceptions that you could figure out?
Andre wrote: "If Clare wants to date an "Asian" I guess she wants to date a stereotype, some sort of picture in her head, not an actual person.That is the problem with her books, they are predictable because th..."
Exactly. I was completely amazed that no one had said any racist remarks about Jem, or Jem and Tessa's relationship, considering that time period.
Not only that, considered that it all plaed in 1878 and not only was the USA in an economical crisis in the 1870s the Antichinesemovement was very strong at the time and definitely reached all the way to New York even if there weren't many Chinese in town at that time. Still it was all only four years before the Chinese Exclusian Act, so the fact that Tessa did not have to work to support her family and has not even the slightest hint of prejudice towards Jem is so unusual that I have trouble to even consider it as possible.
Andre wrote: "Not only that, considered that it all plaed in 1878 and not only was the USA in an economical crisis in the 1870s the Antichinesemovement was very strong at the time and definitely reached all the ..."Exactly. Clare doesn't research anything apparently. I had trouble grasping it too. It seemed unrealistic.
Be lucky you didn't read the Bane Chronicles. If Clare would at least explain why her characters are so unusual for their time, but not even that she does.Would Tessa be Mary Anning I might understand, but she is not. As far as I see it she is suppposed to be normal 19th century girl.
Andre wrote: "What do you mean you couldn't figure it out? What were the few exceptions that you could figure out?"Me? For one, I couldn't figure out who was going to be Brother Zachariah. I didn't realize who Sebastian actually was. There are others, believe me.
Zachariah I might understand, but Sebastian? Come on. Although the fact with the dyed hair was done poorly by Clare, if I remember right she had Clary mentioned the color coming off much later with no hint that it was shortly after she touched his hair.And what sort of modern day dye actually colorss your hands?
Andre wrote: "Not only that, considered that it all plaed in 1878 and not only was the USA in an economical crisis in the 1870s the Antichinesemovement was very strong at the time and definitely reached all the ..."Clare would explain that as 'mesmerised by unique beauty", when Tessa first saw Jem.
If Tessa was one of the shadowhunters, then it can be understood if Jem being different didn't startle her. Tessa was from UK. How many chinese people were there during Victorian era for her to go 'easy' with Jem's look?
Or maybe... it is easy to just say that Tessa was more into Jem's beauty to notice that.
Actually Tessa came to the UK, she grew up in New York. Would she be from the UK I guess she would have had a sort of look down attitude towards the chinese considered that the second opim war only ended in 1860, so only 18 years prior to the book.Considered that she came from New York chances are good she wopuld have been influenced by the Antichinese movement and heard all the gossip.
Also the thing with Jem's (would a Victorian boy really have such a nickname?) looks is downright unbelievable. The guy has bright silver hair and eyes (even if many think the kid on the cover represents him) and is very pale, I rather think that would scare alot of people.
I admit I never thought that way. Will was described as strikingly handsome. Jem was pale with silver hair and eyes. And skinny too, the result of his forever illness. Jem was more an 'alien' to the people there. As 'mesmerising' as he could be, he must have appeared as unhealthy than captivating.
I agreeBut as a side question...
What do you guys think about Cassandra
Clare coming out with yet ANOTHER series?
Is it getting to be too much or should she continue?
Personally, I feel like the MI could have stopped after the 3rd book.... And I feel like the 3rd book in the ID totally ruined the whole trilogy.... But that's just my opinion.... Any thoughts?
Well without his illness he probably could have passed as British (which is the only thing the book cover has in common with Jem's description), despite his eyes. But, as is again predictable for Clare, that never seems to be an issue, also not in China, I mean Jem, or better James, was apparently born shortly after the Second Opium War, his father is British and he is called James Carstairs, so are we really to assume that he didn't stand out in China? That he faced no discrimination there?In real life this would be highly unlikely but in the Clareverse apparently Jem's ancestry seems to make no difference in China, at least I cannot remember it ever being stated anywhere.
As for Amgeo3:
I think she should have stopped MI after book 3, even fans got pissed and book 4 reads like she only did it for a paycheck. Also her books don't get any better as it seems.
The Bane Chronicles so far have been horrible, seriously the writing is horrendous and her characters and relationships only get weirder and weirder. Many fans of Magnus think that the chronicles make them understand Magnus and his "troubled past" better and hate Alec even more. But in my eyes the fact that Magnus fancys people that easily and even lies to his friends, gosh how he treats them... you don't need enemies with friends like that, makes him even more mercurial and more of an asshole.
I think Clare should just stop. I mean she can't even come up with different characters (when they are the main characters, Jace, Will and Magnus are scaringly similar) or even make it realistic.
So again, she should stop.
True.... But in the Shadowhunter world there is very little discrimination... Take women for exampleBut at the same time Tess was a "normal person"
It is all very debatable
Actually the way Clare describes things is for me very annoying, all these similes, and especially her habit of letting something suddenly crash into a scene to dissolve akward situations, that is predictable.Not to mention all the plotholes.
Now Amgeo3 again:
The problem with the Shadowhunter world is that in CoB it was stated that prior to the late 20th century only very few and exceptional women where Shadowhunters, but TDI already has some, so are they all exceptional?
Also if a book needs suspension of disbelief to be good it is not a good book. What is necessary is secondary reality, meaning that it doesn't matter if a world is realistic as long as it is consistent, and there she simply fails. There is the example above but also the fact that her world is based on our world, its present and past, as obvious by all the direct references (Blake, TV, Naruto, Angel Sanctuary etc.), so to create secondary reality Clare has to play by the history of that universe and that is why both Tessa and Jem are such unbelievable characters.
Like someone said before, if you read a lot you start to be able to spot trends. But I adored her books and found them to be very unpredictable!
Did you read them more than once?
Andre- I understand fully what u r saying and I feel the same way.At first I thought that Cassandra Clare was an amazing author... But after the 1st book her writing style seemed very boring and uneventful.... I especially do not like how she says things like
"Simon blushed because he was embarrassed"
I feel that she is a very inexperienced author... While although she may have great ideas, she is not able to write well.
She is EXTREMELY predictable and she does not have a distinct writing style.
I also feel that she doesn't have any NEW and exciting ideas.
But I do like her stories... But I feel that they could be better especially with her research
I feel that she do a lot of work in the area of angels and make believe things... But not the cold hard facts
Then why are so many people defending her countless times? I just don't get it, I mean its not as though the flaws are subtle or anything. :/
I do not believe that Cassandra Clare is predictable, I believe that the characters in The Mortal Instruments series are so well written, that you begin to know them on a level where you can guess how they will react to a situation or what they will say. I found myself saying many times,"I hope Jace doesn't take that as a reason he shouldn't be with Clary" many times as well as a few other situations. The plot only becomes predictable, after the plot has succeeded in immersing you in its world.
I predicted at least 90% of all the "plot twists" in Clare's books based on their initial foreshadowing. Literally the most predictable books I have EVER read. I loved them anyway. I like the world she has built, but really predictable. Also, she reuses some phrases that I abhor, such as so-and-so shaking their head "as if to clear it of cobwebs." Last I checked, shaking doesn't help with the clearing of cobwebs, and even it if did, how does that look? And how often do people REALLY shake their heads other than to indicate "no?" I don't. I don't see others do it often either. It's rare, but ridiculously frequent in the series.
Ryan wrote: "I do not believe that Cassandra Clare is predictable, I believe that the characters in The Mortal Instruments series are so well written, that you begin to know them on a level where you can guess ..."Hah! Let me say now that I'm really really really not trying to be a dick.
I'm so glad you used Jace as your example. Of course he always finds a reason not to be with Clary! And it's because he doesn't grow. That's not getting to know the character so much as the fact that they haven't changed since the last time.
Not to mention that Clare consistently refuses to write long term healthy relationships that change and grow over time so she just breaks them up every time she writes a book.
It's a common problem in YA novels, "Romance" is only while the couple is getting together and "Drama" is only while the couple is apart. Hush Hush, Twilight, The Demon Trapper's Daughter, all of Maria Snyder's books - hell Fallen made an entire plotline out of it.
Note: Luke/Jocelyn and Henry/Charlotte don't count because they're not one of the main relationships and both exist at the start.
Samantha The Escapist wrote: "Not to mention that Clare consistently refuses to write long term healthy relationships that change and grow over time so she just breaks them up every time she writes a book. "So true. Dear lord. I have always felt the same way. They always get too intense too quickly. Characters hardly have any interaction with each other before they are "madly in love." I know that many teens act that way, but the characters behave as if there is never a doubt in their minds that the person they love could be a terrible person.
Or, like in Alec's and Magnus' case, that the one doing the break up is wrong. All this was just there for drama and nothing more. I think Clare even admitted that she had Clary's and Jace's drama in book 4 just for that very reason of having angst in there.
Hey, guys! What's up?Well, I've been re-reading the first books of TMI and what I can say is that Clare makes a good relationship between TMI and TID, I mean, they are connected but you don't really need to read TMI if you only read TID or viceversa; the way she describes and writes is good for a YA book and is kind of different.
I agree though, that there are a lot of points where she's predictible, specially in TMI (I'd only say that Clary and Jace were an exception in 2 books and a half), and also I agree that the other TMI, TDA, are not necessary (I like them but I would be OK only with TID).
And the Bane Chronicles. I am dissapointed. I've only read the first installment and Magnus seems so different from the character Clare described in the other books, but I think that's because she's writing them with other authors.
I don't think that Magnus is really that different. When you read his lines in CoB you notice that he is basically only nice because he wants something from Alec, apart from that he seems to be very rude and constantly annoyed. Also he says that he was born with the devil's mark but in the chronicles it is said that he looked normal at first; apparently the navel was forgotten by Clare.Basically the Magnus of the chronicles is at once an exaggeration of the one in TMI and TID, but also a product of Clare's previous mistakes (e.g. the different ages of Magnus, which is "resolved" here by making him lie about his age to everyone).
But still in TMI and TID there was no hint that Magnus would treat his friends like this, when he had friends that is.
And for me, knowing CoB made CA worse, because of the inconsistencies.
I think it depends on the scene of the book. Some parts a little, but the whole plot isn't, and that's what matters.
Not really. Little things matter too, and if there are too many inconsistencies, the reader will be confused. True, there are mistakes in almost every book, but when things don't add up because of several mistakes and abrupt, inconsistent changes, that's a problem. It's lack of care on the author's part if it's done repeatedly.
Alexandra wrote: "And the Bane Chronicles. I am dissapointed. I've only read the first installment and Magnus seems so different from the character Clare described in the other books, but I think that's because she's writing them with other authors. "Novella 1 and 2 of The Bane Chronicles are rather dull. Magnus in the novella is quite different from what I read in the series... :(
I wouldn't say quite different but an exxagerated version. Actually when reading book 1 of the chronicles I was constantly reminded of Jace. Oh yeah, what is also predictable in the books is that Magnus pretty much looks for every halfway goodlooking "person", so far it has mostly been guys, and we are constantly reminded what his favorite traits are.As for all the inconsistencies: They are many, quite many. Take the vampire scene in CoB for instance. When Jace and Clary take off with the flying bike Clary sees lots of vampires surrounded by werewolves on the roof, but only a few sentences ago it was stated that the vampires were flying, so why are there vampires on the roof and why are none trying to flee the werewolves or pursue the two on the bike?
In CoB it was said that prior to a few years ago only etxraordinary female Nephilim became warriors but in CA we already have more than one. So are they all extraordinary?
That is indeed the word. Exaggerated version. I feel Magnus is more of a joker warlock than an awesome warlock in both novellas, which is sad, for I thought Magnus is the most interesting character in the series.
I think the problem is that Clare either can't or won't write characters that actually are more mature than a bratty tween. Seriously Magnus is at least 300 years old, but does he act like it? If the one from the chronicles is how she envisioned him all the time I would say No. His age seems to be a rather an excuse for claiming that he must be right, even when he is clearly wrong.
Andre wrote: "I think the problem is that Clare either can't or won't write characters that actually are more mature than a bratty tween. Seriously Magnus is at least 300 years old, but does he act like it? If t..."Yes, that's what I think too. She also uses his supposedly old age to put him on a pedestal, and everything that flows out of his mouth is wisdom because he's older. Nevermind the fact that he acts like a brat. He's the go-to, know-it-all, etc, yet he's not much better than Clary at them. Like that random outburst in CoB, where he randomly yelled at them for being bratty teenagers and made some irrelevant and inappropriate for the current situation statement about his "harsh" life. Sounds like a whiny teenager to me who's looking for attention.
Exactly, I admit that I didn't realize the immaturity of that scene at first, but to be honest, I noticed how fast I forgot that. Clare's books seem to be so forgettable. Seriously I can still remember much from Lord of the Clans by Christie Golden despite having it last read years ago, but with Clare it gets hard to remember details. Maybe that is why many people didn't realize how predictable it is.
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I have read all of her books, and I have loved them all.
But, I feel that her books are very predictable.
My friends think I am crazy... what do you guys think?
Let me know some of the things that you predicted.