Clockwork Prince
discussion
Cassandra Clare... Too Predictable?
That is the thing, even many teens don't like these characters. And if she thinks she does something good by writing bratty teens all I can say is: she is not. Seriously when you are a teenager sure you want to see teens doing everything but when you grow up you notice that when that stuff was given to you it actually didn't do any good. When you are a teen, although I doubt this series is actually usually read by teens, your head is full of crazy ideas and when such a series like this says that it is ok to act upon all of them without thinking it throught it basically keeps you from growing up. Because lets face it, despite all the claims, entertainment is never just entertainment.
Also, that is something Clare is in my mind also guilty off, when you give people the same stuff over and over they will never know what is different and will demand the same stuff, which is actually a quite clever marketing strategy, and maybe that is all there is to her books: marketing. I mean CoFA read like she only wrote it for a paycheck.
The relationship stuff is predictible but thats it.
It is sadly a bit more than that. Respectively, relationships make up so much of this book that there isn't much left. But there are other examples, in CA it was very obvious what was a trap and who was the Magister and it was also predictable that the Shadowhunters would be so stupid not to notice that. In addition it was predictable that Tessa despite being a warlock would have no problem having children and no actual inhuman traits. There is more but lets keep it with just that for now.
Oh yeah, she's TOTALLY predictable, cause we ALL saw that brother and sister thing coming
Which one, the first or the second time?
Mo1357 wrote: "Oh yeah, she's TOTALLY predictable, cause we ALL saw that brother and sister thing coming"Yes, we did. The fact that they're not really brother and sister, I saw from a mile away.
I am a huge fan of Cassandra Clare and I think all of her books are AMAZING, That said, I don't find her books predictable because I couldn't really predict most of what was gonna happen next, there were just so many twists.
What twists? You are not the first one saying that but none so far ever stated where the twists were or why this and that was not predictable.
Andre wrote: "What twists? You are not the first one saying that but none so far ever stated where the twists were or why this and that was not predictable."By twists, I kinda meant the whole Sebastian actually being Clary's Bro and stuff.
You didn't get that right away when Clary stated that there was something familiar about him and later when she stated that the kiss felt wrong?
Andre wrote: "You didn't get that right away when Clary stated that there was something familiar about him and later when she stated that the kiss felt wrong?"I suppose Shiny will answer you herself.
I have my own theory regarding that kissing scene.
I did think that Sebastian was likely to be Clary's brother. He didn't care about others, but was a bit (too much?) possessive with Clary. Since he was the most arrogant person ever, he must have considered Clary as 'important' as himself.
When Clary stated there was something familiar about Sebastian, I think she was referring to her drawings more than some bonding stuff between them.
When the kiss felt wrong, it could be her angel blood telling her there was something wrong with Sebastian. He was affected by his demon blood afterall.
I didn't like to think that it referred to him as her blood brother, because it was rather ridiculous. They never met. Did Clary have a sixth sense? She had angel blood yes, but since Sebastian was written to be evil since his birth-date, how did the powerful angel blood acknowledged that sibling thingy?
I think you give Clare more credit then she deserves, because when you think about it:In CoG she let Jace state that his feelings come from his demon blood and in CoLS what did happen with Sebastian? He suddenly wanted Clary. For no reason whatsoever. By the way I would not say that he considered her as important, after all what evidence is there for that? Prior to CoLS he didn't give a dick about her, actually him wanting to get into Jace's pants would have made more sense then suddenly being hot for Clary.
I am not a fan of making things up so it fits a certain picture, I go by what Clare provided and if she doesn't provide the correct information, that is her problem as a writer and not mine as a reader. She is the storyteller so it is her job to give us the information.
Andre wrote: "I think you give Clare more credit then she deserves, because when you think about it:In CoG she let Jace state that his feelings come from his demon blood and in CoLS what did happen with Sebasti..."
Yep, I did give Clare more credit than she deserves. I did that to some readers which books I enjoyed reading.
I think it was so easy reading TMI. I didn't even care about the flaws. I started reading Young Adult novels once I quit interfaith forum, so I was ready with all the plots or storyline served before my eyes. I decided that I care more about whether I enjoy the reading or not.
Jace and his blood demon was one of Cassie's flaws of being inconsistent. But I was enjoying reading Jace I cared not about that (later I did).
Sebastian. I practically didn't care about Sebastian or anyone else in TMI. I only wanted to read more about Jace. I liked Magnus too, but I didn't like how Clare wrote about his relationship with Alec. Hundred years old warlock who fell into some teenage romance mood, just like the person he fell for? Quite weird for me thus I stopped caring about them.
I thought Sebastian considered Clary more than others. Not because he literally felt so, but because she was his sibling, the only one who shared his blood (beside Valentine), which practically made Clary above everyone else. Sebastian obviously considered others as his inferior.
I got the idea only from a bit of info Cassie offered me in the book. When both were walking on the street. Too bad that Cassie didn't consider it was important to dig up Seb's humane side.
I have my own way to read books (maybe weird to others). When I read historical romance, I usually am in romantic mood, and doesn't care about the lack of plots in them.
When I read dystopian novel, I cease my romantic mood and merge myself into the awfulness of the world in the book. Stop that when I read easy-to-read novels like TMI.
I might have given Clare more credits than she actually deserves. But if when I enjoyed her books and couldn't put them down before I reached the end, I would have lied to myself if I gave her 1 or 2 stars.
Well I can't just overlook such flaws in writing and plot, I think I read too much.Also what is the appeal of Jace? Especially since he, Will and Magnus in the Chronicles are all pretty much the same guy.
Andre wrote: "Well I can't just overlook such flaws in writing and plot, I think I read too much.Also what is the appeal of Jace? Especially since he, Will and Magnus in the Chronicles are all pretty much the ..."
Maybe because I was tired after discussing and debating in Interfaith forum. It was fun though, and we were bound to always support our comments with valid data thus gave each other necessary info (even if we dismissed it later... LOL) Too bad that the page stopped being active years ago. Most of us could not log on and stopped trying.
Story of the past.....hahahaha
Jace? Oh... he is so cute and snarky. Totally the one that I would smack in real life. He is also stunningly handsome, one that will never be seen in real life (as Will too). It was fun reading something not belong to the world, and totally out of the world, especially when they are super handsome. My imagination works better with handsome, cold, snarky young man, especially when they are Brit and speak poetry... Ohhh...
Excuse my romantic mood. I think you are rolling your eyes right now.... :)
Magnus? I never put him on the same shelf with Jace & Will. I found him weird enough to like him. I only wish The Bane Chronicles does not exist. Those novellas ruin Magnus!
Well the Chronicles show that Clare cannot really write anything different.As for Jace and Will... yeah I was rolling my eyes. Jace is not simply snarky, he is downright mean and rude to people, all the time. He has stalker tendencies, never listens to anybody and despite what the books say only seems to truly care about himself. How can you think that guy is attractive?
Andre wrote: "Well the Chronicles show that Clare cannot really write anything different.As for Jace and Will... yeah I was rolling my eyes. Jace is not simply snarky, he is downright mean and rude to people, ..."
LOL... none of my friends understood me when I started my reading list years ago. I blame HP for this. After book 3 (or 4) I started searching for more fantasy novels. I even shocked them with my romance novels. I was told to have degraded myself into cheap reading lists. Well... I suppose I read to whatever I enjoy reading, not on someone else's sake... :)
Jace was so unrealistic for me. I think his bad behaviour was his mask. He was forced to kill his pet after taking good care of it, just because he loved it. When someone was instructed such evil deed at a very young age, something was broken inside. The insecure feeling to love or to treat someone he loved or liked openly would not as easy as it is for someone else. And Jace was not loved by the Lightwood. Maryse could say otherwise, but without more details of that love, Cassie only contradicted that love with the fact that Jace was sent to the Lightwoods, and the must take care of him, because they were still under some punishment, not due to their nature loving and kind-selves.
Jace is stunningly handsome, an ethereal beauty ( blame the angel blood) and I have weakness with handsome characters or people. Jace, Will, Adonis, Apollo, Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, Jude Law (with more hair).
In real life, everything runs differently. No matter how handsome a person is, if he has no attitude, no manner, arrogant and ignorant... that person will not be in my list. Most important in real life, even if he is as gorgeous as the falling Lucifer, he must speak different topics. I will run like a road-runner if he is dumb..... lol
Well that is something. The thing is, it seems that most defenders of Jace site his tragic background, but apart from the bird killing thing there wasn't that much tragic stuff mentioned. In CoB Jace lists all sorts of things his father gave him and all sorts of places they visited. That doesn't sound so bad to me. Also Jace's "tragic past" seemed so constructed. In later books we are told by Isabelle that before Clary came along Jace was only half-alive or so, which I found very weird. I mean where did that come from? The "death" of his father? After 7 years he still acts like that?Also the Lightwoods actually did care for him and considered him part of the family, which also doesn't fit his behavior.
Basically, a tragic past is no reason to lash out at others, especially after such a long time. There are plenty of fictional characters with way more shit in their past and they didn't act like that.
It's quite obvious what cassandra is trying to do relating to the question of why she is writing another shadowhunter series. Cassandra is trying to create a new phenomenon. She wants the shadowhunter world to be a basic paranormal thing that everyone knows of like vampires, werewolves, fairies. She wants to start it all by making several stories related to the shadowhunter world and the basic rules of what exactly a shadowhunter is. I think it's a great idea. Something different and new that people would surely enjoy but not feel predictable about. And i think it's something she wants to last long after she has died. I for sure would continue it if i became a writer, but it's just a thought. I'm not completely sure of it
It is possible that she has something like that in mind. But we must also consider the idea that she simply wants to milk the cash cow as long as possible.That she does so much about the same topic fits both your scenario as well as mine. After all there is truth to the saying "never change a winning team."
And that this "team" is winning is without a doubt. But on the other hand, I do wonder whether that can work. Even fans seem more and more pointing out the flaws of the books and that she repeats herself so often. Actually I don't think she could do either scenario because her books and characters aren't really evolving, they basically stay the same and something like that never works for long.
But lets look at your scenario for a while:
The thing is that the majority of elements in her books are long established fantasy tropes, so what part do you think refers to her wanting to create a new phenomenon?
Or maybe... there is this saying that things happen in 40 years cycles. Does anyone here know what sort of literature was popular 40 years ago?
Andre wrote: "Well that is something. The thing is, it seems that most defenders of Jace site his tragic background, but apart from the bird killing thing there wasn't that much tragic stuff mentioned. In CoB Ja..."Jace has always wanted to get his father's love, but from what we could read in the books, Valentine was not a loving father. And raising Jace as a son was not his intention. He wanted to create some perfect shadowhunters, and Jace was brought up most likely without love. It never stopped him from trying to get his father attention though. Even when Valentine flew away, Jace hold on to that piece of glass to enable him to see Valentine.
The Lightwoods. Alec, Isabelle and Max loved Jace as their own siblings. But the trauma Jace got was from a father, which required another father to heal. But Robert Lightwood didn't appear to be a loving dad, nor was Maryse. The only information I got of their (or I can say her) love was the time when Maryse told Jace the story. Not before. Loving Jace while they were being punished to accept one of the rebels(circle)'s son was probably not an easy task after all.
Surely there are plenty of fictional characters out there who had much more tragic situation and was able to do better than Jace (or other characters in TMI). Characters in dystopian novels survive better despite their bitter lives and the wreck world they are struggling to live in. Jugun Ianfu in real life survived their beyond-understanding experiences.
But each series is not bound to follow the survival guide set by other fictional characters from different series or even real people.
TMI was an easy read and with flaws. To expect the series to be an awesome read is too much. As I said before, I loved Jace character and I decided to go on with my reading to know more about his story. I dismissed everything else :)
I gotta be honest I couldn't dismiss so much. It all just seemed so fabricated to me. As though Clare just added stuff even if it didn't fit the devotion Jace described for his father in CoB.Although to be honest, I thought something was wrong with him even then. I mean what sort of 17 year old thinks that the raptor story is a good story?
Maybe it is not just Jace, maybe its also Clary. What sort of normal 15 year old girl lets herself being treated like that?
And one thing: Isn't it convenient that Clary is still a virgin? Seriously, what was up with that?
I suppose that is the way you enjoy your reading, by paying attention to details. TBH I didn't do that with TMI. But I have to go into details when I read mystery novels. I used to be all about Agatha Christie, and I was all about details. Didn't get the killer all the time though... lol.
Clary? I could not call a 15-years old teenager who was madly in love as normal. Their brains work differently. I can't remember losing my sense that much when falling in love. But I remember some of my friends were totally 'mad' during that time. I suppose it works differently with each person. And in fantasy novels, the feeling is likely to be exaggerated... :)
Hm I haven't read Christie yet, I always think I should, but currently I am occupied with Eileen Chang.But that is the thing about the feelings, why is only her "love" exaggerated? Why not everything else?
And now that I think about it, did the topic of sexual desire ever come up prior to CoLS?
I feel the character's choices are predictable, but the whole situation is not. In example, I don't think anyone was expecting Clary and Sebastian to be brother and sister in The Mortal Instruments.
Callie wrote: "I feel the character's choices are predictable, but the whole situation is not. In example, I don't think anyone was expecting Clary and Sebastian to be brother and sister in The Mortal Instruments."I was expecting that they were siblings. It was sort of loud and clear, during their kissing. I even wished I have guessed wrongly, to get more complicated plotline.
Andre wrote: "Hm I haven't read Christie yet, I always think I should, but currently I am occupied with Eileen Chang.But that is the thing about the feelings, why is only her "love" exaggerated? Why not everyt..."
I love Mr Poirot! I was so lost when I could not read any of AC's books. Sydney Sheldon helped, until he met his demise... :(
CoLS? I noticed that Jace and Clary were very passionate about each other (hormones??). I don't mind their romance though (I am biased, so anything Jace is okay).... LOL
But that is the point about them. Considered how often Clary describes his looks the lack of sexual tension is staggering.
Clare definitely only knows how to write about 'bratty teenagers', I feel her skills are very limited and until I come across at least one of her characters who doesn't act like a spoilt 16 year old, regardless of their actual age, I will refute this comment. Magnus = very immature, but he's the eldest out of everyone(I presume)? I feel to shout at him 'grow uppp!!!' everytime.
Even Jocelyn acts like a child a lot of the time, she seems more like a friend to Clary rather than her mother.
I dislike Clare's writing style, but I can't help being hooked to her world.
Well supposedly Magnus was born in the city of Batavia (modern day Jakarta) to a woman of mixed Dutch and Indonesian ancestry (his grandfather was a dutch official) so he was most likely born in the 17th century. However Clare has him constantly lying about his age out of habit, probably more likely because she messed it up the first three books, so I would not be surprised if she suddenly says something else about his age.
I just feel that Clare's world is completely unrealistic.At least besides the fact that she writes about shadow hunters and warlocks and the making.....
I personally feel that a boo is good when I can relate to it. For this to happen, a book has to have some real life aspects in it. Here is where I feel she goes wrong
1) Clary and Jace are "BADLY" in love and at such a young age.
2) Tessa falls in love with two completely different people.... But ends up finding a way to hook up with both of them.... I mean seriously?
3) Magnus (the old dude) falls in love with a young boy or a "bratty teen".
And these r only with the romantic plots in this novel.... All of the others I'm sure you guys have noticed like the obvious, the fact that the most inexperienced shadow hunters never die and all the wiser ones are dying l around them.
Yeah, like a 2 star teen fantasy come true.I think a problem is also this "big love like Romeo and Juliet" that many of these books seem to want to copy. But by aiming for the "perfect love" of these two, they forget one important fact:
Romeo and Juliet's love was "perfect" because 1 week after the two met, they were both dead. Not to mention that Juliet was only 14, at that age being blinded by love is not something special.
As for Magnus... Clare and her co-authors have him lusting after guys so often in the Bane Chronicles that he comes along like a total slut.
How about, Cassandra Clare... Too Awesome?
By what standards is she "awesome?"She can't even keep her stories and characters consistent.
So true..... The whole Romeo and Juliet thing to the fact that she is not awesome at all
How about by my standards!? I try not to overanalyze things and just go with it. I love these books because they are enjoyable, humorous, and action-packed. Shoot me for having my own opinion and standards.
Rachel wrote: "How about by my standards!? I try not to overanalyze things and just go with it. I love these books because they are enjoyable, humorous, and action-packed. Shoot me for having my own opinion and s..."You have a right to your opinion. Relax. If that's how you feel about it, that's fantastic! As long as you respect other's opinions that differ from yours, you're good.
It's just a series of books.... We all have to remember that
The average reaction to these books seem to suggest that they are more than that.
Rachel wrote: "How about by my standards!? I try not to overanalyze things and just go with it. I love these books because they are enjoyable, humorous, and action-packed. Shoot me for having my own opinion and s..."That is not an answer, since you did not state what these standards are.
It's a very common point of conflict between the people who read critically and the people who read...I guess I'll say fancifully. It often seems like either side has expectations of the other side, one getting exasperated and wanting to know where others see the actual quality, while the other just doesn't understand how the critics can't have fun with it.I love letting go and loving something, but I have a critical side with very high expectations that often just doesn't allow me to enjoy something for shallow purposes. And I definitely do get frustrated with people who defend something to the bitter end without ever giving a reason why.
I've learned to stop fighting because both sides are fighting completely different battles.
But on that note, I very nearly added you as a friend Andre because i like/agree with how/what you're expressing, if we had more books in common i would :P But I gotta say, looking through your ratings I think you're a sucker for punishment :P You might want to learn how to let go of a series you're not going to like for the sake of your sanity lol.
Can't, I am a man of my word, so I have to go through with the Clare books. And since I am planning on writing for racialicious.com and therefore scan her books anyway I might as well write a review.Actually I am currently also reading a book called the Social World of Batavia, to see how "Batavian" her Magnus really is.
In addition, that defenders usually cannot state why they like these books and for many of us with a more critical stance this is very worrying especially when they start attacking us personally.
The whole thing with Clare would be less bad if she could at least keep it consistent, but not even that she manages. The contradiction were already there in her first three books. Not to mention that alot makes no sense and apparently she, nor Brennan for that matter, can actually visualize what she is writing.
Also from an ethical point of view her characters are so screwed that they hardly seem like characters.
It is fine with me if they are predictable as long as she keeps writing them.
Why? What is so great about the books that you forgive them to be predictable?
@AndreMaybe because we loved the love story in TMI, we tend to ignore the flaws in the series. At least I did that. Only because Clockwork Princess has an awful ending I started to go through the plot and acknowledged what I have been ignored all this time.
I still want to read more about Jace, but if the book is bad, then I will say that it is bad without being biased anymore.
Andre wrote: "Also from an ethical point of view her characters are so screwed that they hardly seem like characters. "This is a trend I've been noticing at a surprising rate lately and it really makes me wonder why.
Are authors so lazy that they make their characters disfunctional and inconsistent so they don't even need to write - their characters just trot along from plot point to plot point with no rhyme or reason...
Or is it that the authors THINK they're creating real people when it's really just a shallow husk with more flaws than they know what to do with...Is it the whole thing where it's supposedly better writing when your characters are flawed? Because the caveat there that they must have missed is that the flawed characters need to actually grow.
Whoa! I just figured it out! It's a Mary-Sue/Gary-Sue overcorrection. It's gotta be! The fanfiction age (which as we know spawned several "good" authors) was RIFE with Mary-Sues and now the huge fear is having a character like that. So guess what! Characters aren't silly and clumsy and perfect anymore, they're pathetic, dependant and slightly delusional now.
Couple that with the trend in movies lately where everything is a gritty reboot and you've got an explanation for all the darkness that goes along with it in most of these books. So now instead of Mary Sues with have passionate, stupid, depressed, troubled, "realistic" characters turning up everywhere. It wouldn't be soooo bad except - plot twist - no one ever grows out of or past anything.
Le sigh.
Samantha The Escapist wrote: "Couple that with the trend in movies lately where everything is a gritty reboot and you've got an explanation for all the darkness that goes along with it in most of these books. So now instead of Mary Sues with have passionate, stupid, depressed, troubled, "realistic" characters turning up everywhere. It wouldn't be soooo bad except - plot twist - no one ever grows out of or past anything. "Gosh, so true. That is a problem I had with the last Teen Wolf episode. Supposedly the main character could become an Alpha werewolf without killing another Alpha because he is so strong willed and virtuous. I was just: WHAT????
To make it short, the guy is likeable, but he takes too many things for granted, is too self-absorbed and quite frankly is an idiot. When the revelation happens he is a werewolf for 1 year already and he still didn't think about breaking the ring of wolfsbane (like salt for ghosts) by simply using his jacket to break it.
That is also frustrating with many of these new heroes and villains. They are supposedly competent, but they act like idiots and that is another problem with the Clare universe.
I just read the recent Bane Chronicles and despite Magnus stating to Tessa that they are friends and that she can always count on him, in the end he doesn't tell her what the reason for her sons suicidal behavior is because they could supposedly not do anything about it. Why he does't know, he just leaves London without informing them.
Now I am supposed to believe that these people are actually friends?
@Nurlely
I know there must be something to make people overlook the flaws. And you stated why you like the books, but you are one of the very few here who did openly state the reasons, the average defender hasn't done it so far.
Samantha The Escapist wrote: "Andre wrote: "Also from an ethical point of view her characters are so screwed that they hardly seem like characters. "This is a trend I've been noticing at a surprising rate lately and it really..."
YES. No character grows at all, and if they do, it's for the worse!
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But at the same time not ALL teens are bratty
And I think that CC needs more depth in her plots and writing