Ana’s Comments (group member since Jan 08, 2016)

Ana’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

See, to me this is a statement of sorts rather than a song. :) May I remind you all, however, that we have some very explicit lyrics in the reggaeton that blasts in clubs worldwide every weekend? Those are frowned upon by those of us who would rather listen to what we define as 'actual' music, yet it's difficult to find people who stop dancing at said club because the lyrics made them think 'ugh this is so explicit, I can't even.' Interestingly enough, these are almost always sung by men or else women have a very marked role in them.

If I have to be perfectly honest, the execution, as someone put it above, is a bit too crude for my personal taste. However, I too see the value in videos and messages like these reaching societies that are otherwise pretty conservative / in need of a debate. It's sort of like what the Pussy Riot were back in the day in Russia. Do I see what they do as music? Hmmm. As I said above, not exactly. But the means of expression that they chose to portray their message allowed it to spread more easily and enabled some debate along the controversy.

If Conka's Lalá is doing that, my musical taste set aside, I say it's not that bad. :)

Hi there, Katie! How cool that OSS inspired you to the point of coming up with such a wonderful idea yourself, to apply in your immediate circle. I feel like whenever we hear from you people doing stuff like this IRL, this has already been worth it all.

Hmmm. You already have some cool advice from other members. May I suggest exploring with your students the many aspects of leadership and its application in everyday life? Perhaps, also, when it comes to social media, which is such a powerful tool with teens -leading others to maybe channel those networks for good instead of turning them into harmful 'aspirational' feeds and so on.

The educational systems in your country and mine (Spain) are fairly different, but also, maybe, ensuring that girls are taught to seek all potential opportunities when pursuing an education. Most of my own I paid with several scholarships and grants and people are often surprised that they exist and did not know those opportunities were there. Empower them to find out for themselves!

Last but not least, I agree that encouraging your students to do some research would be yet another useful way of getting that engagement that you need for them for your project to succeed. Perhaps you could make them find inspiring instances of female leadership in their own communities. Projects that they could relate to or that would feel meaningful to them and inspire them to join or make a contribution!

So obviously, while all of us have a keyboard and a connection to the Internet, not all of us should necessarily make use of them. :)

Mostly I agree with those of you who said that 1) not only men can be nasty online, 2) it would be utterly unfeasible to issue such a license. Stronger anti-harassment laws and monitoring would definitely be nice to have around, though. Still, it's quite the task. It would take a very honest government to play with such a powerful tool without turning it into a censorship tool. Case in point, China and its so-called attempts to build a safe Internet for the people.

Y'all are welcome! Oh, and please feel free to turn this thread into a study group for this MOOC, if you'd like. :)

Dagny, I didn't know about yours! Shall check it out, too. :)

Hi Ashkan,

I could easily be wrong, but I think you are one of our newest members, in which case - welcome to Our Shared Shelf! On behalf of the admin team, I certainly hope that you enjoy joining us for conversation and readings galore. :)

With regard to this particular thread, I am not quite sure that it'd be relevant to keep, however. See, as much as that is certainly an interesting suggestion, I think those are ideas that she herself should come up with, if and when she feels ready, possibly with a much more organised plan than whichever we could possibly schedule. We have had other threads in the past about Emma potentially writing herself a book, etc., and they ended up being a bit of an exercise in wishful thinking.

Not that she does not need from others -in fact, I would say much of her road in this cause for now goes through learning from others and taking inspiration from allies. Just that this is most likely not the right venue for that. Let's see what my fellow mods think, however. :)

Hi everybody!

My, my, it's been crickets for a while here, right? My sincerest apologies about that, as the sole responsible of this project within the admin team. Ever since I moved abroad for work it's been a lot of fun and exciting challenges offline, but I have also struggled with balancing everything, and it took its toll on this project.

...But nothing positive ever came from dwelling in your sad blues! So let's get restarted, shall we? Even if it's at a slower pace than initially expected. You will see that there were some uploads, the latest ones today, for both Portuguese and Chinese. Expect more soon! This post is just a FYI to say: the project is not dead, it simply went through a MIA phase. :)

Carry on!

The following is the Chinese translation of Emma Watson and Gloria Steinem in Conversation! Brought to you thanks to the hard work of our Chinese volunteers...

Aria: pages 1 & 2
Suzanne Meow: pages 3 & 4
Nicki: pages 5 & 6
[Currently uploading!]

格洛莉亚·史坦能与艾玛·沃森的访谈录

艾玛：你好，格洛莉亚
格洛莉亚：你好
艾玛：非常感谢你能前来参加这个面谈。讲真，这个机会对我来说非常珍贵，20秒前我还恍惚以为自己在做梦呢。其实，在场的每一个人都很佩服你过去的努力，同样也很钦佩你继续站在写作的前沿的决心，和为大众发声的勇气。同时我也非常喜欢你的《My life on the Road》这本书。不过我想首先和你问你几个私人问题。在书中，你曾写过，在你小时候并没有去学校上学，而是跟着做古玩生意的父母游览大地山川。那么你觉得，这种与众不同的童年经历是否影响了你对世界的态度？还有，你现在的事业和成就是否和童年的经历有些关系呢？
格洛莉亚：讲真，我原来很后悔没有上过学，因为我想过大多数孩子那样的校园生活，就像电影里那样，人们住房子，而不是像我一样住拖车。但是现在再度回首，我还是很庆幸自己没有上学的。毕竟学校的洗脑式教育（大笑）里隐含着很多性别歧视。甚至到现在，这种学校教育里潜在的性别歧视也没有被根除，我小时候就更别提了。所以像我这样，小时候对学校求之不得，长大后又庆幸没上学的人，也是蛮少的。话又说回来，的确，小时候飘忽不定的羁旅生活让我很没有安全感，但是这并非坏事。虽然我小时候一直试图逃避这种不平常的生活方式，但是，这种生活方式的确像良药一样激励我，让我走向女权主义，并且一路走到现在。
艾玛：我觉得你的童年遭遇非常特殊，同时也很不容易
格洛莉亚：为什么这样说（大笑）
艾玛：我就知道你会这样问！（大笑）不过，你说的很有道理……
格洛莉亚：我是打心眼里这么想的，我很看重童年的经历对一个人的影响。我们无法选择人生的际遇，但是我们可以利用已有的际遇成就更完美的自己
艾玛：你说的太对了。我的理解还没有你那么深刻。我九岁的时候很讨厌自己粗粗的眉毛。我想把他们拔的细一点。但我母亲极力地想告诉我，眉毛是我脸蛋上的特色。如果我把他们拔细了，就是一件很羞愧的事。还有，我小时候一直在拼命摆脱赫敏这个影子，尤其是在跟她很相像的地方，我会刻意装作我们一点也不像。但是最终我还是接受了这个形象。正是赫敏成就了我，所以我很接受赫敏。这是一个很有意思的心路历程。你虽然小时候没去上学，但你还是被史密斯大学录取了。那么接受这种大学的正规教育是一种什么样的感受呢
格洛莉亚：大学简直就是天堂，因为那里有数不胜数的书籍资料，而且还会提供三餐。所以我不明白为什么别人很排斥大学（大笑）。大学太美好了。不过我其实在大学有些缺乏安全感。因为我上的那个高中，几乎全民踢足球，很多学生对足球非常疯狂，以致于他们特意不毕业，一遍一遍地上高中，就为了留在足球队，直到22岁不能再留了为止（大笑）。而就算是毕业了，很多人也会去工厂里打工，或者直接结婚啊什么的。所以从那种学校毕业后进入史密斯大学，让我非常缺乏社交方面的安全感。不过还好我年少懵懂，所以这种感觉没那么糟糕。记得圣诞假期结束时，同学们就晒成一身古铜色回来，搞得我一直犯嘀咕，居然有这么多人住在弗罗里达和加利福尼亚（笑声）。所以我大学时一心扑在书本上，我还看了一些亚里士多德的书，控诉女性多么软弱多么邪恶。我们的美好预期不过是镜水花月，而且，要知道，这已经不仅仅是一个没有女性的文学世界了，这简直就是男权主义笼罩的地方。
艾玛：那我想问一下，你什么时候第一次接触女权主义的书籍，你还记得第一本让你回味无穷的书吗？
格洛莉亚：应该是弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫的。我的确读了挺多她的书。但是当时，她处于一种被大众误解的处境。社会普遍认为她神经过敏，而没有去深究她童年遭受的种种虐待。所以我把对女权主义的一腔热情转移到了国外。我去了一趟印度，因为大多数人都在研究欧洲的女权问题，所以我这样的很少见。看来我们内心对印度的殖民主义已经根深蒂固了（笑声）。我把我的热忱全部集中到了印度，这个国家才刚刚摆脱殖民，所以并不是很理睬我，所以我在那里的工作除了为大众服务，就也没什么其他的了。
艾玛：所以，你后来开始做记者，然后有一天你就开始从事更大规模的活动了。我很感兴趣的是，当你自我反省的时候，你是如何自我定位的呢？
格洛莉亚：唔，我依然觉得自己是一个作家，因为对我来说，写作时最重要的。虽然我更多的时候在忙活组织社会活动的事情，但是一旦我坐下来开始写作，我就不想做其他的事了（笑声）。但是当我看到自己组织的活动的成效时，我一样很开心。在小组中，我们彼此关照。我们现在的社会充满了等级，而这种等级是建立在父权社会的基础之上的，而父权社会日趋式微。所以在小组中，我们讨论得非常激烈，这边有人问问题，那边就立刻有人回答，讨论未来潜在的麻烦，安排见面会，以及女权图书馆要关闭了，我们怎么反对，等等等等。
艾玛：我想问的是，大概何时开始你看到了第一篇女权主义的文章，你还记得那时候的事情以及它对你产生的影响吗？
G: 我觉得那应该是弗吉尼亚·伍尔芙。我确实看过她的书，但是她从某种程度上被误解得很深。她在童年所遭受的痛苦没有被人理解，相反她被人们当作精神失常。我们几乎都把精力花在了欧洲国家，所以我将我的希望与目光更多投注在其他国家，这也是为什么我要在印度进行这项在当地罕见的运动。因为殖民是存在的，而且在这些情况下更需要我们的运动。所以我的目标现在投注于刚刚独立的印度，而这其中我本人是微不足道的，我只是为大家服务而已。
E: 呃，所以你会作为一个记者继续下去，然后在某些方面你将会加入到一些范围更广，影响更大的运动中去。所以我想知道，你是怎么看待自己的？你的自我定义是什么？
G: 我仍然以一个作者自居，因为这对我来说意义重大。虽然我花了大量的时间在另一项称为自由道路社会主义组织的运动中，但是我必须要说，写作仍然是排在第一位的事情。
我非常乐于并且激动地看到我们的组织突然变得，我是说，我们互相照顾。我们是有一种等级制度在里面的，而这是基于一种在其他任何地方都不存在的“父母制度”。我很激动看到他们会进行讨论，有的人提问而另一些认回答，他们探讨会随之而来的问题，制定会议，现在女权图书馆就要关闭了，就在我们谈话的时候，他们也在寻找对策。
E: 是的，就是我们今天谈到的…….
G: 对，现在的租金……
E: 租金增长了好多，我认为，因为……
G: 所以就是，写作是一件很私人的事情，我不能将我希望发布的关于女性运动的文章发表出来。但我感谢这一点，正是因为我在绝望中，所以即使我认为我会有生命危险，我也将它们说了出来。
E: 我第一次演讲的时候也是这么以为的。他们让我相信我可能会死。
G: 好吧，我说知道的就是你不会死。
E: 你不会死的，不会死的。
G: 但我还是口干舌燥，大概是紧张的征兆吧。
E: 哦，你觉得嘴里很干吗？
G: 是啊，我感觉每一颗牙齿上都像套了一个安哥拉兔毛毛衣在上面，我根本没法……
E: 我就是在发抖，我尴尬地意识到我能看到大家，他们也能够看到我在发抖。所以我试着藏起自己发抖的手，然后稍微缓了缓，为了显得不是那么僵硬。然后，我在紧张的时候总是容易大脑一片空白。这真令人受挫，因为我会认真准备很多，然后在需要的时候，我什么也想不起来。
G: 当你做别人的时候，与现在有什么不同吗？
E: 非常有意思。当我只作为自己本人Emma来发言的时候，这种感觉又自由又可怕。虽然但我们讲别人的事情或者扮演别人的时候也会有类似自由的感觉，但意义却是不一样的。我的意思是，这是一种太不可思议的体验了。我喜欢我的工作，但是能够以自己的身份来发言，这对我也意义重大。
G: 我觉得你能从你那份令人喜爱的工作中抽身一年转而投入到女权事业中和你在联合国的活动是非常令人佩服的。虽然你是个演员扮演角色，人们通过屏幕认识你，但是我们相信你。
E: 我是这么希望的。
G: 这也是为什么这份信任这么重要，并且还将其贯穿于这些行动，比如关于这些书，你知道这是多么珍贵而且出众？
E: 是啊，我觉得，如果之前我还有什么不得不藏于心中，现在都是时候向大家袒露。
G: 我也是。
E: 是啊，我受到公众关注有一小段时间了。这有些疯狂，但我非常高兴能够参与其中。
G: 嗯，我非常感兴趣。你曾谈及过婚姻法，说婚姻对男人和女人并不平等。但是女权主义人士和女权主义运动正在试图改变它，以期有朝一日我们能拥有平等婚姻。
E: 但是当我们步入其中，那些所谓传统就会接踵而来，我很好奇，怎样你才能拥有那种确实建立在平等，互相尊重上的婚姻。想到当你要有一个家庭，或者你想开始一种职业生涯，而你却被当作性爱工具或者其它类似的东西，你作为女权主义者怎么看待这件事？
G: 嗯，这是一个很大的问题。
E: 是的。
G: 而这是我们在现实生活里都需要回应的问题。但是现在法律更平等了，尤其是在你我两国的法律中，但仍有很多不平等在其他的国家。但如果我如同预期的那样结婚了，然后我就失去了我的姓名，信用评级，我的法定住处和我大部分的公民权力。
所以我们已经在这个部分取得了平等和婚姻平等，这是很重要的，每一个想要结婚的人都能够结婚，至少我们基本上达到了婚姻平等，而且我们还在继续前行。但是当你离开家的时候，你仍被区别对待，外界的压力依然存在。
G:有着孩子的女人往往更不容易被录取工作而男人相反，因为这群男人更会被认为是负责的而女人却是容易分心的，所以我认为并不是要在独立的个体中达到完全的平等而是我们互相帮助，做些改变。你们在亲职假上走的比我的国家远太多了，我们实在没有这个东西，更不用说为了母性，我们和你们比起来有些落后了，北欧国家比我们能走的都要远，我们可以互相学习。但是我真的，你懂的，如果你选择拥有一个孩子，我并不认为能在婚中取得完全的平等，直到男人可以抚养、爱、呵护一个孩子像一个女人一样。
（掌声）
G：然而我不是。我觉得我们不仅仅是说看在女人或男人的份上或者是男人想要和他们的孩子更亲近，而是看在孩子的份上。因为如果他们不曾见识过男人可以被爱被呵护和耐心的一面，他们将不会知道这样的行为也是可行的，同样的，如果他们不曾看见过女人也可以在外取得成就勇敢挑战，他们也不会认为这样的行为可行。我的意思是我们通常照着我们看到的去做而不是听到的，所以，我们进步的很慢，这也是我们仅有的方法。因为我们不断形成自我而且我们的童年也是正常化的，所以我们想走多远就能走多远但是在另一方面家庭又是至关重要的。如果我们没有拥有民主的家庭，我们就没有民主的社会，永远，所以如果我们不消灭家庭暴力，我们也将永远没有无暴力的社会，所以这不仅仅是关于平等关系和家庭，它有更深的含义。
E：最后一个有一点……因为我们上次见面时，你给了我一本书，叫《性别和世界和平》，这是我所知的最好的书名。
G：这就是我们想要的两件事！
（笑声）
E：没错！
（笑声）
E：但是，我翻到了第四页，我不得不终止阅读了，我被书里的统计数值所吓到了，我不能再沉浸其中了，然后我花了十分钟时间去谷歌看这是不是真的。事实上这真的是有依据的，但是现在在这个星球上男女比率是101.3比100。所以女人再也不是人类总人口的一半了，我引用了书里的一言，但是书里又说有比所有战争和二十世纪内乱的而死的生命因为重男轻女而人流、杀女婴、自杀、惊人的孕妇死亡率和其它相关特定性别选择而死。这个数据在我脑中挥之不去，所有的战争和二十世纪内乱。所以在这个观点上，最大的社会问题是一贯形成的，对女性来说有点社会性质上的货币贬值的味道。我从来没遇到过像这样的数据。我始终无法理解我们几乎在影响整个世界的人口平衡和人口的组成。你认为我或许远远落后了，你认为人们可以理解在这个数据天平上我们所造成的影响吗？
G：不，我不这么认为。我不知道，我没有在要求举手表决，但是我打赌这个数据让很多在座的人都惊讶了，是吧？以及这本书，这本好书，《性别和世界和平》，用了一个生动的图案，两只翅膀的鸟，如果一个翅膀坏了，这只鸟也无法继续飞翔了。所以如果女性的人口没有和男性的人口一半一半平衡安全，就无法运作了这同时也指出了判断一个国家内暴力有无暴力、道路其它或者是一个国家有无意愿去使用军事力量去攻击其它国家的最好的指示其实不是贫穷、不是存取自然资源、不是信仰甚至不是民主的强度，而是对待女性的暴力行为，不是因为女性生活仅仅比男性生活更为重要，而是因为这是我们先看到的东西，这是先在家庭观念而后在家庭实体，一个团体去控制其它东西正常标准化的是ok的想法。所以这很重要，不仅仅是对女性而言，而是所有人。其实我们如果看暴力的微观世界那性别化战争就在交战地带，有了所有的原因，我们将不再到人类的一半。
E：这很疯狂，我一直被问，带着对于性别平等的尊重“真的吗？面对恐怖主义、战争、贫穷和气候变化，性别平等真的，真的就是我们现在应该谈论的吗？当这些糟糕的事情层出不穷时。”其实我有自己的答案可我更感兴趣于你的答案。这个通常被推至于议程的最后“噢！我们先把这个搞明白，然后是这个，当一切都好了起来，我们再忙于性别不平等，um，为什么你觉得这个一定要……”
G：因为这是其它一切事情的基础！逗我吗？这是生活中最早使地位正常化，就是这创造了许多胡乱的还有阴性阳性之分的想法，拜托，这就是人类。男人从小生活在这样的环境中会认为他们一定要证明自己的大男子主义特别是在女人或者是其它男人的优越之下。同根而生，造成气候变化最大的原因使强迫女人去生她们不想要的宝宝然后人口剧增。如果你让女人去决定要不要、什么时候去怀孕，只会超过人口复位等级一点点。所有我知道的地方，女人都会（？）因为健康问题，而这是你的身体，而且是健康问题，然而去逼迫女人生她们不想要的宝宝，这就是世界上的大多数地方所做的，这就是造成气候变暖的最大原因。在那个单子上没有任何一件事情不是在人口数量一半对一半的根本地位上的。（停顿）你说什么了当他们说……？
E：我是说……对……
G：我说的有点多，好吧，但是……

Oh, that goes without saying. Still, we are not tolerating that sort of comments here. See, this is an instance of where we truly draw the line. :)

Hey, Santerro! This is an LGBTQ+ friendly space. Comments such as yours are not only rather ignorant, but also fairly unpleasant for the majority of members and hurtful for many of them. I would appreciate if you could refrain from voicing such ideas in the future.

You're welcome! I got this via the Beijing Feminists Forever Wechat group, which I got introduced to during a free beer & pizza night. Ah, this crazy city. :')

Hey everybody!

Fancy some free learning? I thought so. :) The other day I found out via one of my Wechat groups that Stanford University is about to launch the newest season of their open online course International Women's Health + Human Rights! , You can find a welcome message from the course instructor, Ms Firth Murray, here.

For those of you who aren't very familiar on the subject of MOOCs, I would encourage you to just jump into this one and see by yourselves what they are all about. Most of them are rather self-paced and allow for active debate with other learners from around the world. Also, we tend to (wrongly) think that free = not worth it. Well, if this one is anything like the ones I have taken part in, it should be more than worth.

While we are at it, I would be pleased to have this thread turn into a directory / discussion point for this and any other similar resources that you find online and would like to share with us. Let's learn together! :)

I agree with Ross that the book is painterly (painterly? I hope I am using the adjective right!), something that shocked me in a way, because how would you expect such a quality in a story that serves to depict the terrible society that Gilead is? Yet, that's the way it would read to me sometimes, too. By the end of the book, I no longer perceived it as an odd quality and it actually came to suit the plot nicely -brutality and horror that were intertwined with the change of seasons, a splash of blood on the Wall, the women's dresses as they visited the markets.

As for the style that Toria, and surely many others, found a little challenging sometimes, I think it is a mix of many factors. If you think about it, these are transcriptions from tapes. They're memories from a society that was in its first steps, from a member trapped in its dangerous games. There is also trauma, as some of you eloquently mentioned. All in all, Offred's voice reaches the reader somewhat incomplete -as it should.

I would suggest that the recommendations here do have a feminist bent, given that we are, after all, in a feminist book club. ;)

That being said, I have none, sadly, because this is not my favourite genre. Let's see what others have to say about it.

This actually sounds like a pretty fun idea... :)

It's late here and I have to go to sleep, but what about Clara Rockwell, the inventor of the weirdly fantastic theremin? :) Largely unknown by people, still a pretty interesting lady.

Oh, and Vivian Maier. And Anaïs Nin. And Colette. Sophie Scholl, from the White Rose resistance movement. Dolores Ibárruri, the Bröntë sisters. Ahhh, such a long list. Will make sure to come back with more.

If we did not have the epilogue with the academic congress, the ending would be more of an open thing. As it is, I believe there isn't really much room to interpretation -Offred was rescued by the Mayday Resistance.

We are left, though, some room to an open ending in the form of the fate of her family -her daughter and her husband in the pre-Gilead world. We know for certain that the former was, indeed, alive and under Gilead's children relocation system. As for Luke, there is no way to know what happened to him.

Personally, I think Offred escaped but did not necessarily have a happy ending. I highly doubt she ever saw her relatives again, and the lack of further findings on her story post-Gilead life is not a good hint.

Also is it just me or did the epilogue feel a little...disturbing, too? Perhaps it was just the general feeling after having read such a charged book, but it still felt somewhat creepy to me.

P.S. I would be interested to know what you people think of Ofglen II. Offred's encounter with her takes place right before the ending...for all the fear that she felt upon their short, terrifying dialogue, I wondered whether Ofglen II was still another Mayday. Or maybe Nick truly came in time to save her before Ofglen II truly reported her.

I think we have to thank mostly Nazi Germany for the immediate association of stripes to prisoners...

These are all some very interesting ideas. I agree with those of you who have gone a little further on the greater freedom 'enjoyed' by the econowives. Now I hadn't consciously thought of it while I was reading, but it has resonated so much with me when you eloquently worded it that I think I was under such an impression, too.

I have yet to see the Hulu adaptation because I am in China and am lucky if I get regular access to normal Internet, but I would love to see more detail on how each woman was assigned a role in Gilead. We obviously got some information from Offred's account, however it's not so clear for Marthas vs Aunts, for example. As for the Econowives, I wonder just how much would their husbands have drunk the koolaid. I would initially think that the biggest threat to Gilead's level of insanity would come from families that were able to stay together, even under such circumstances. Or perhaps the opposite?

It's quite the simple definition, right? ;) I'm starting to think the challenge lies exactly there, in its simplicity. It's far too clear of a concept, in a complex world where values have been a dangerous boomerang, the weapon of the elites to ensure that the masses will not go astray.

So for each male that joins a cause that should be embraced by everyone, I can only feel happy to welcome them. Gender equality is reached through some marvellous channels, one of which being questioning the toxic notion of masculinity that so many of you are subject to daily. See? We all have something to win from the exchange. :)

In my workplace we have flags that were hanging low for all of yesterday because of the attack. Every now and then I would look at them out of the window and I would feel sick to my stomach.
If we were to keep flags low for every act of violence in this sick, wicked world we live in, we would never raise them again.
Please do not get me wrong, as I do not wish to enter that damn game of measuring and assessing whose pain and blood are worth our sympathy. Rather, I just reflected on our current world. The way our societies are ridden with fear, hatred and harmful, wrong pride in ideas that are now long outdated, if they ever were valid.
If history is indeed a pendulum, I wonder whether ours is a moment forward or backwards.

Hey, Giorgios. I don't like diminutives of my name and I am most certainly nobody's dear.
Now carry on...

Georgios wrote: "...Darth Gerder lol

I am sorry Anny but it was not me that has been judgmental and offended me on a personal level. You cannot expect me to swallow that. No we do not go back. First he appologises..."

Yeah, well, if we have a thread on male voices in feminism and it ends up turning into a dump for unresolved personal issues that are then used as an argument against feminism, then yes, I feel very much entitled to be amused and disappointed. You will notice that we have not closed this thread, nor erased any messages. However, it is a pity that it can't go along the lines of Sascha's latest post. I know, because I have seen it myself here, that the conversation could be much more insightful.

Men are very much needed and welcomed in feminism. However, that certain threads turn into something like this is yet another proof that feminism is very much necessary.

May we all agree to disagree, take our fights to pm if necessary and go back to the initial point of this thread? Thanks.