Simon’s Comments (group member since Dec 27, 2014)

Simon’s comments from the One Year In Search of Lost Time ~ 2015 group.

I love the notion how experience is much more compressed, and faster in books, so that we gain infinitely more by reading for an evening than spending it in the real world, and in books we experience changes of emotion, which are too slow in the real world to notice, to compare to the previous state. I guess also because reading is repeatable.
(this is my current reasoning for spending most of my time reading)

once the novelist has put us in that state, in which, as in all purely mental states, every emotion is multiplied tenfold, in which his book will disturb us as might a dream but a dream more lucid than those we have while sleeping and one whose memory will last longer, then see how, for the space of an hour, he sets loose in us all possible happinesses and all possible unhappinesses, just a few of which we would spend years of our lives coming to know and the most intense of which would never be revealed to us because the slowness with which they occur prevents us from perceiving them;
(p. 87, Penguin Books Kindle Edition)

Also, the idea that landscapes in books are both more interesting and more real than in real life:

the landscape in which the action unfolded and which exerted on my thoughts a much greater influence than the other, than the one I had before my eyes when I lifted them from the book.
(pp. 87-88)
for the landscapes in the books I read were for me not merely landscapes more vividly portrayed in my imagination than those which Combray set before my eyes but otherwise analogous. Because the author had chosen them, because of the faith with which my mind went to meet his word as though it were a revelation, they seemed to be – an impression hardly ever given me by the countryside in which I happened to be, and especially by our garden, the unmagical product of the perfectly correct conception of the gardener so despised by my grandmother – an actual part of Nature itself, worthy to be studied and explored.
(p. 88)

And this to me is also the reason I love landscapes in video games more than most real life ones, wich only rarely, though admittedly often worthwhile and more immediate, hold such great impressions. Take this screenshot from the game Skyrim I made, which imitates Caspar David Friedrich's Wanderer (and you can actually traverse this landscape of course):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyjd4ehfq04...

compare this to Friedrich's Wanderer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderer...

(credit for this idea goes to Xavier Belanche, who is working on a book called Artificial Infinity: From Caspar David Friedrich to Notch. first two chapters:)
http://www.artificial-infinity.com.s3...

But don't worry, I do actually get out into the real life sometimes. ;)

No problem, Nicole, the discussion is separated by parts of the book, 60 pages or 14% a week, you can also post behind schedule in an earlier thread. i and probably others will still like to discuss somewhat retrospectively.
Welcome to the group!

And here an explanation for Proust's long sentences:

Proust felt that a long sentence contained a whole, complex thought. The shape of the sentence was the shape of the thought, and every word was necessary to the thought:

(Davis preface)

I switched to the Davis translation since I wanted a Kindle version (digital highlights and notes are too handy) other than Moncrieff. And boy am I glad after reading the two hefty prefaces by Prendergast and Lydia. They show some weaknesses of Moncrieff's and even the MKE version, along many wonderful musings on the art of translation.

The present translation has tended to be plainer and more direct than Moncrieff’s, in part because his individual word choices are so often ‘dressier’. For instance, each time Proust uses the word disait, I have translated it simply as ‘said’, whereas Moncrieff often introduces a variety not in the original by choosing instead: ‘remarked’,‘began’,‘murmured’,‘assured them’, etc. In many other cases, too, his tendency is to replace a more neutral word by a more expressive or loaded one: regardait, ‘looked’, becomes ‘peered’ or ‘peeped’; tenu, ‘held’, becomes ‘squeezed’;‘little’ becomes ‘tiny’;‘interest’ becomes ‘fascination’;‘emptied’ becomes ‘purged’.

And this explains Charles' comment of Moncrieff being 'purple':

Scott Moncrieff was of his time, above all by virtue of a tendency to shower Proust’s text with cascades of Edwardian purple prose.

The only part of Davis' preface I didn't like were the almost complete synopsis, which spoils almost all happenings, and is just not useful or insightful in this preface. Seeing that the prefaces make 7% of the Kindle edition, that could have been cut.

But finally, Davis reassures readers of the Moncrieff or MKE edition that these translations are mostly sound and well readable:

Much as one may argue with the specifics of Moncrieff’s decisions, however, his monumental work remains the standard by which all succeeding translations of Proust will be judged. Within the limitations of his approach, which was in part conditioned by his time and cultural milieu, Moncrieff’s ambition, to remain faithful to the shape of the Proustian sentence and the order in which it unfolded, and to create a rhythmic, coherent, eloquent text in English, was impressively fulfilled in Swann’s Way. His ear was for the most part sensitive, his handling of the language adroit, his mistakes in interpretation relatively few, given the sheer numbers of pages he translated.

After this, with how hungry i now am for Proust, i'll probably start over with the Davis edition up until the week 2 mark.

MKE: "with a secret and languid flame invisible to the chatelaine, an enamoured pupil in a countenance of ice."
what a difference in translation!

I have created an anonymous poll asking for age to see at which age all of you decided to read Proust this year. To me and i'd assume to others this would be quite interesting. Obviously anonymous, since not everyone wishes to show his age here.
Here's the poll:
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/1...

Ideally this would be a survey, so we can see more things like whether its your first read (otherwise you need a lot of poll items). So the poll idea made me think about a year-end survey to document this group that has read all volumes of ISOLT. What can be said about this group, which statistics can we create? I'm sure we'd get interesting results. We could ask for your impressions in all kinds of ways, what parts impacted you the most, etc. Does anyone else have ideas for survey items?

We could also do a poll for each volume. If we also do one very soon, we'll see a partly unfortunate, but surely interesting statistic in how many readers stopped their journey (and at what point).
Also, the information we create in this group by posting might also generate some statistics (for example what's the most talked about topic, word, etc).

Any questions, concerns or ideas about the current age poll, surveys or statistics?
Oh and sorry if the poll invitation bothered you.

I think the fictional Marcel is around 10 at the beginning.

Funnily enough, Proust himself was quite the "mama's boy" even into adulthood, well described in How Proust can change your Life.

In answer to a questionnaire asking Proust for Your notion of unhappiness, he replied, ‘To be separated from Maman.’ When he couldn’t sleep at night and his mother was in her bedroom, he would write letters which he would leave at her door for her to find in the morning . ‘My dear little Maman,’ ran a typical example, ‘I am writing you a note while I’m finding it impossible to sleep, to tell you that I am thinking of you.’

De Botton, Alain (2012-02-23). How Proust Can Change Your Life (p. 52). Macmillan Publishers UK. Kindle Edition.

I'm happy to see your enthusiasm about the group, Steph, which I share :)

No, I don't think so, Joanna.
Charles: yes, the character name Marcel might be confused with the author in discussion. We could name the character Marcel and the author Proust as I guess one is inclined anyways.

At first I thought you meant difficulties in taking the character for the author in interpretation and had written a reply to that, but then I think I understood what you really meant.

Today's our first deadline, so let's talk about 14.3% of Swann's Way!
To me it's hard to come to a first conclusion about these 60-odd beginning pages. I love Proust's observations on perception, memory and other things, which have to be the focus of interest when story-wise nothing much happens. Reading these I can never help but think about this book title, Proust Was a Neuroscientist.

this change of lighting destroyed, as nothing else could have done, the customary impression I had formed of my room
(p.8)

And of course the infamous madeleine-memory-trigger scene at the end of the first chapter. I absolutely love and find ingeniously fitting in the imagination this Japanese paper wetting analogy (i struggle to name this decently):

And just as the Japanese amuse themselves by filling a porcelain bowl with water and steeping in it little crumbs of paper which until then are without character or form, but, the moment they become wet, stretch themselves and bend, take on colour and distinctive shape , become flowers or houses or people , permanent and recognisable, so in that moment all (...) sprang into being, town and gardens alike, from my cup of tea.
(p. 36)

Also, Swann as an impartial, almost scientist-like observer and passive participant in conversation, who avoids intellectual discussion to keep everyone sympathetic towards another.

Oh and I am a bit confused that the little boy who so longs for his mother's good night kiss is the narrator, not Swann. We almost learn more about Swann than him, and evidently we'll see him grown up in later parts of the book, otherwise it would be hard to see him as an interesting protagonist for the moment.

I agree with Ben. Anyone reading the thread for the next reading deadline should expect spoilers for the assigned part (though hopefully for that one only). And i'd expect people to want to discuss things as they read them, not days later, sometimes ahead of the week's deadline, including me.

Good idea, Ben. Jacob should be able to award group members like you positions like Moderator or something, so that they can add books to the bookshelf.

Steph, i can warmly recommend How Proust can Change your Life by de Botton, especially if you "just don't get" Proust. De Botton explains very well why Proust spends so many pages on nothing happening (it's his way of observation and description, not the action, that's important).

I happened to start the first 20-odd pages on the free, old Moncrieff translation now (Kindle, public domain), as i'm traveling without my MKE copy. So far I find it and its language very enjoyable and eloquent. I'm often thinking about your remark though, Charles, that Moncrieff "tended to be purple". I wonder whether that shows when Moncrieff writes "shew" instead of "show" (old spelling), or Mamma instead of Mamman, or when he tries to make the translation sound antique, stylized. Or perhaps you mean something else?

I also tried some pages of the original afterwards with my inexperienced french and the language itself is really not overcomplicated, it just uses some old expressions and very long sentences. Though the content is not simple and the meaning, as in the English translation, isn't always immediately clear to see. It should be doable after having read the translation.
I'll probably switch to the MKE edition though when i have my copy again.

Like Judy i'll be using the MKE edition (translations by Moncrieff and Kilmratin, revised by Enright), because i already have that copy. I remember comparisons between the editions in the Year of Reading Proust group, and the MKE seemed to be a solid choice. But I can imagine Prendergast making improvements over the older MKE translation.
Oh yes, I remember people saying that Proust's language in itself is quite simple, so translation and editions shouldn't be too big of an issue.

Hi, i'm Simon, I study Cognitive Science and Philosophy in Vienna, and i'm excited to have found this group!
I've stumbled upon Alain de Botton's How Proust Can Change Your Life, which i've now read twice. This more than whetted my appetite to read the real thing.
I actually intended to read Proust in 2013 already and joined a similar group, The Year of Reading Proust. Unfortunately i was too busy so that didn't work out. Now i'm reading more than ever and hopeful and excited for this year. I'm very much looking forward to discussions and getting to know you all!

A great introduction and sort of idea-summary is Alain de Botton's How Proust can change your life.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

Here he explains why Proust spends 30 pages on how his character turns and tosses in bed because he can't sleep: the subject matter is not important, it's all about how Proust treats it. I feel like this is an important lesson for people beginning Proust who are frustrated when "nothing happens". Yes, it's not about what happens, but how expertly Proust describes it, at least in passages like these. That by the way is also why I think you can't really be "spoiled" about Proust.

This is one of my all-time favourite books, I just reread it and feel the same. And i read this before reading a word of Proust's own FYI.

Here's my review of it:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Monsieur Proust's Library sounds like an excellent auxiliary read, will look into it!