Simon’s Comments (group member since Dec 27, 2014)

Simon’s comments from the One Year In Search of Lost Time ~ 2015 group.

The Penguin/Davis edition has this footnote:
King Theodosius: probably an allusion to the visit of Czar Nicholas II in 1896.

still of course the name likely is taken from those emperors you researched.

Actually Swann's affair and the architecture and landscapes were the less interesting (but very enriching) parts of Swann's Way for me. I prefer the musings on society, personality, music, perception, memory, etc.

Yeah, i'd recommend Swann's Way to anyone who's interested in Proust, or in classics in general. (i meant Huckleberry Finn, not Tom Sawyer by the way)
Vol. 2 is even slightly better than 1? Wow, i wouldn't have thought that possible, seems like we're in for a treat yet :) Swann's Way has its lengths though, lots of architecture, and a large part is about Swann's love/infatuation and jealousy.

Teresa wrote: the overall intention of the 7 can be found in "Swann's Way"; perhaps that is one reason many set the goal of reading all 7.
I don't quite understand what you mean, can you maybe explain?

I mean, of course you can explain why people want to read all seven volumes or maybe also why they only read Swann's Way, but I wonder why, given that so many people know about Proust's seven volumes and what a great endeavour it is to read the whole In Search of Lost Time, why noone ever considers or recommends just reading the first volume, Swann's Way, first, which is much less demanding.
I never heard anyone talking about Swann's Way as an independent novel before, and I think that's as merited as talking about the Odyssey or The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, for example.

I fell behind in reading and only now arrived at this goal. I actually missed and read beyond the week's goal and even some of the third part and wrote why i would have liked the goal to have been at the chapter end, which i self-indulgently preserve here (spoilers for next week!):

(view spoiler)[
Maybe i would have prefered to end this week's read at the A Love of Swann's chapter end, because it's the end of a long, emotionally involving episode that one wants to reflect over for a while and collect one's thoughts before moving on, and the style and topic changes in the next chapter to musings on landscapes and places. To avoid spoiling the end line, one could have just pointed to "part 2 end".

this alternation of images had brought about a change of front in my desire, and – as abrupt as those that occur now and then in music – a complete change of tone in my sensibility.
(p. 390, Davis, Kindle)

(hide spoiler)]

Again, this week's part shows the sorrows of unrequited love (when the partner's has waned), and it seems everyone who has experienced anything similar could relate to many of Swann's feelings. To me it shows the madness of the jealousy and suffering when Swann almost lives and thinks exclusively around whom Odette is seeing. This passage shows he realizes that himself, but can't help it:
(view spoiler)[

he forced himself, on the way, to make various plans, he stopped thinking about Odette; he even succeeded, while he was undressing, in turning over some fairly cheerful thoughts in his mind; and it was with a light heart, full of the hope of going to see some great painting the next day, that he got into bed and put out his light; but, no sooner, as he prepared to go to sleep, did he cease to exert upon himself a constraint of which he was not even aware because it was by now so habitual, than at that very instant an icy shiver would run through him and he would begin to sob. He did not even want to know why, dried his eyes, said to himself with a smile: ‘Delightful – I’m turning into a real neurotic.’

(p. 319)

(hide spoiler)]

Again, the middle part where Swann reencounters their "little phrase" of the Vinteuil sonata, is amazing to me as a piano player with its poetic thoughts on music. I was glad someone mentioned that the inspiration for the fictional Vinteuil sonata likely is the Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 2 by Saint-Saens, the "little phrase" first appearing at the second movement, the adagio, then at the end of the last, though i haven't yet identified the "little phrase" in Saint-Saens. Here's a brilliant recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX_Kd...
(view spoiler)[

Awestruck by the virtuosity of the performers, the Comtesse exclaimed to Swann: ‘It’s amazing, I’ve never seen anything so powerful…’ But a scruple for accuracy causing her to correct her first assertion, she added this reservation: ‘anything so powerful… since the table-turning!’

(p. 355)

(hide spoiler)]

This one sentence explaining Swann's motivation to build up a love for Odette shows how you can miss a lot if you're not paying the utmost attention while reading:

At that time, he was satisfying a sensual curiosity by experiencing the pleasures of people who live for love.

(p. 348, Davis, Kindle).

What i wonder more and more is why most people hear about or consider reading In Search of Lost Time, but noone considers reading Swann's Way. You might not find the time or motivation to read all seven volumes, but why not just first read 500-odd pages of the fantastic first one? To me it's an extremely worthwhile standalone novel.

Nice to have you on board, Dottie! That book of Rose's sounds great and could be seen as something one of our group members could write after our 2015 group read, a writer of course. Ideally I'd like to read that after my own year of Proust to compare what we went through, and I'm certain she will at least be much more wise and eloquent about her experience than me, which should be enriching.

Oh, one question: does "a memoir in real time" mean that the book is structured like a journal, each reflection on a part of Proust written before she read the next one, or is it entirely an after-fact reflection after she finished all volumes?
Also, many reviews of this book suggest that the connections to Proust are rather rare and that it's more about the author's life.

i thought the affair with ... might be a spoiler for this thread. but it's not a big issue anyways, just wanted to mention it.

Susan, this would better belong in week 4 or 5, where the 'a love of Swann's' chapter starts.

don't be discouraged by falling behind, one can still discuss. maybe you could go for a little Proustathon at some point though ;)

I also wonder if this love of Swann's isn't an obstacle to his life. they don't have much in common, she can never understand him and the art he loves, and it is difficult to imagine a happy, lasting future for them. also, he retracts from society, quite becoming misanthropic over his jealousy. then again, it gives him an intensity of emotions and a relationship. what do you think?

I'd write more and quote, but i only have access to mobile devices right now.

interesting points, Theresa, especially that stylistic one. i had also wondered about the coexistence of the narrator's memories and his omiscience of Swann's story, and that passage connects the two.

i found this part an excellent and extensive display of the infatuations and mad worries of love. how jealous Swann is! that shows that even such a wise and calm man of letters as Swann can succumb to the irrationalities of love (not implying that's a bad thing).

A sidenote: Proust is spoiling me for other writers, it appears, I often see them through a Proustian lense.
I didn't enjoy The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes too much (2/5), didn't like the landscapes in The Sun also Rises (Hemingway, 2/5) and found it lacked observations, and liked two of these Proustian ones in The Great Gatsby (3/5) and was disappointed there weren't many more:
(view spoiler)[

As for Tom, the fact that he ‘had some woman in New York’ was really less surprising than that he had been depressed by a book. Something was making him nibble at the edge of stale ideas as if his sturdy physical egotism no longer nourished his peremptory heart.

Fitzgerald, F. Scott (2013-08-13). The Great Gatsby (Kindle Locations 280-282). Kindle Edition.

He smiled understandingly— much more than understandingly. It was one of those rare smiles with a quality of eternal reassurance in it, that you may come across four or five times in life. It faced— or seemed to face— the whole external world for an instant, and then concentrated on YOU with an irresistible prejudice in your favor. It understood you just so far as you wanted to be understood, believed in you as you would like to believe in yourself and assured you that it had precisely the impression of you that, at your best, you hoped to convey.

Fitzgerald, F. Scott (2013-08-13). The Great Gatsby (Kindle Locations 628-632). Kindle Edition.

(hide spoiler)]

Marcelita wrote: "Simon wrote: "I was a bit disappointed to see Legrandin be a snob after I identified with him a little before that,..."

Never one to read The Search as a biography, I couldn't help but smile. Both Proust and Legrandin had their "verses" set to music. ;) "

I'm not sure I understand you completely, but I'm always happy to make someone smile. You mean, you don't relate to characters or even identify with them in Proust?
Also, while Proust and Legrandin share having their verses to music, Proust was much more similar to Swann than Legrandin in social attitude, as he was no snob and had the same attitude as Swann never to engage too much in intellectual discussion, give his opinions on serious topics and art without belittling them afterwards, etc., to preserve other people's sympathy and exchange affection, which was his main goal in friendship.

Interesting find about Proust's poems set to music, I hope I can translate and hear them some time, thanks!

And what a sweet part this is! for me, the most accessible, page-turny one so far. I was quite surprised how much sweet romance Proust put into this, of the kind that would easily fill bestseller romance novels, but of course coupled with Proust's excellent high-level observations. I breezed through that part (while careful to take it in as attentively as possible) and was quite shocked and dismayed to suddenly hit our week's goal line.

As a piano amateur, I was of course also completely won over by the celebrations of music, wonderful fresh ideas also for musicians i'd say.

There are too many beautiful things to quote in this fantastic part, so i'll instead throw a curve ball and criticize two passages:

The first one is a repetition. We had almost exactly the same description of Swann's conversation code much earlier in the book (maybe worth finding). So why again? I guess it's an important part of Swann's character that deserves repeating, but i knew this too well not to be irritated.

He was extremely precise when it came to the recipe for a dish, the date of a painter’s birth or death, the nomenclature of his works. Now and then, despite everything, he went so far as to utter a judgment on a work, on someone’s interpretation of life, but he would then give his remarks an ironic tone, as if he did not entirely subscribe to what he was saying.

(p. 213). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

And the second one seems to me a general observation as eloquent as all the others, but simply unrealistic. If you knew nothing about a person you desired, wouldn't you want to know all the more about her past and current life?

and he knew nothing about how she spent her time during the day, any more than about her past, so much so that he lacked even that initial bit of information which, by allowing us to imagine for ourselves what we do not know , makes us want to know it.

(p. 242)

To restore Proust's honour, if i dare say so, here's an excellent observation that has been confirmed in psychological studies not so long ago (at least as affect):

Of all love’s modes of production, of all the disseminating agents of the holy evil, surely one of the most efficacious is this great breath of agitation which sometimes blows down on us. Then the die is cast, and the person whose company we enjoy at the time is the one we will love.

(p. 233)

Our reading ends "...and in fact, what spoke to her imagination was not the practice of disinterestedness, but its vocabulary" (p. 341; ~56.9%).

I hope you don't mind me opening the discussion thread, Jacob.

Yes, that must be it, Teresa, fits Legrandin's snobbery, thanks!
@Susan that also surprised me a little, very nice addition to the complex observation, the humor. i also expected this to be a more difficult read. It just takes patience and a lot of attention.

Interesting observations, Jacob, very worthwhile. I found the Swann's/Guermantes way description possibly revealing and central too and highlighted it. It's also worth keeping in mind while reading on that the Méséglise way is in fact Swann's way, as it is often called the former later on.

I was a bit disappointed to see Legrandin be a snob after I identified with him a little before that, but I don't let my relation to characters get in the way of appreciating what the author expresses. It was hilarious too when Legrandin dodged Marcel's father's question whether he had a friend at Balbec again and again by reinterpreting it more and more creatively, culminating in this remark:

M. Legrandin, had we insisted further, would have ended by constructing a whole system of landscape ethics and a celestial geography of Lower Normandy, sooner than admit to us that his own sister lived a mile from Balbec and be obliged to offer us a letter of introduction
(pp. 133-134, Davis, Kindle)

Does anyone remember quickly why Legrandin didn't want them to visit his sister?

I could write a lot more, but most of the time in the way I want to reflect on the reading that requires me to closely reexamine the text and notes; i'm figuring out a reasonable extent to writeups, also what would interest others.

Already though, I'm quite sure I'll stick to this read all through the year and all seven volumes, as for all its demands of concentration, energy and rereading, it's extremely enriching.

Very interesting, Jacob! that's quite the interpretation. I'm not at all sure that you were chasing phantoms there anymore.

However, I do think that "one" is the most fitting translation for "on", just not very pretty, "you" just sounds better. And i'm not sure that "on" can refer to oneself french-wise or that he is addressing a definite referent. To me these "on" sentences are universal observations on the human condition, what most people - i.e. "one" - would experience, not limited to the narrator or a single person.
example:

"like a melody one will become infatuated with but that one cannot yet make out"
this is a general observation, how we, everyone, can become infatuated with a melody before quite grasping it.
Often he uses these "on"s in comparisons of concrete happenings to a general observation such as this one, which to me further shows the generality of the "on":

like (comparison) a melody one will become infatuated with but that one cannot yet make out (general observation), what I was to love so much in his style was not apparent to me (special instance of the observation).

Still, I find your interpretation reasonable and compelling, it might also be a second layer of meaning. And i'll have to give you the benefit of avoiding your spoiler explanations for now.

I think one may be chasing a phantom there with the "you", as Proust in french writes "on", which literally would better be translated as "one": "when one goes to meet a woman every day". I suspected he used "on", so I found that passage in french:

Je ne pouvais pas quitter le roman que je lisais de lui, mais me croyais seulement intéressé par le sujet , comme dans ces premiers moments de l'amour où on va tous les jours retrouver une femme à quelque réunion, à quelque divertissement par les agréments desquels on se croit attiré.

Proust, Marcel (2011-03-30). Du côté de chez Swann (French Edition) (p. 52), Kindle Edition.

Probably a good reminder, also to myself, not to trust translations too literally. But I liked the interpretation :D

To me it seems quite important for understanding the long sentences to sharply keep in mind the start of the sentence and, as simple as it sounds, the main predicate (verb) and subject, because he often branches from that, then at the end of all side clauses the main sentence continues, and if you forgot that predicate, it's hard to grasp the meaning.

Also, a good exercise to me is to try to really fully grasp one of those long sentences once in a while. See what the main sentence is, and reread it until you understand every detail of the thought. Of course to do this with all sentences would take ages, but i feel it's very worthwhile to do just from time to time. for me such an exercise was this sentence:

Alas! I did not know that, much more than her husband’s little deviations from his regimen, it was my weak will, my delicate health, the uncertainty they cast on my future that so sadly preoccupied my grandmother in the course of those incessant perambulations, afternoon and evening, when we would see as it passed and then passed again, lifted slantwise towards the sky, her beautiful face with its brown furrowed cheeks, which with age had become almost mauve like the ploughed fields in autumn, crossed , if she was going out, by a veil half raised, while upon them, brought there by the cold or some sad thought , an involuntary tear was always drying.
(p. 16, Penguin Kindle Edition)

after this exercise, i saw the beauty of this sentence in its complexity, and noticed so much that i missed just on standard reading.

The Penguin dialogue philosophy, Prendergast preface Vol. 1:

Lastly, there is the question of the way Proust both disposes and marks dialogue. His practice here varies. Sometimes he ventilates speech, with separate paragraphs for each individual speaker. Sometimes, he embeds dialogue in the same paragraph, often further cemented with surrounding narrative and discursive material. The latter procedure is particularly noticeable in the later volumes and is apparently to be explained on the purely material grounds of his publisher’s worry about space. The ‘naturalizing’ model of translation might well be tempted to ventilate some of this, in the name of a more accessible English version. An unintended consequence of Proust’s method of embedding, however, is a tendency to dissolve individuated speech into the flow of the Proustian monologue, an effect that seems worth preserving.

We have also retained his practice of punctuating embedded dialogue, normally with quotation marks opening and closing a given sequence, the transition from one speaker to another within the sequence effected by the use of the dash (or ‘tiret’). This too can make for a degree of confusion as to the identities of speakers, but, since – at least in its embedded form – it is hardly less alien to a French reader than it is to an English one, we have resisted Kilmartin’s importation of quotation marks for each instance of separate speech within a sequence. There seems to be no good reason for making English Proust more ‘reader-friendly’ than French Proust.

I don't mind if the dialogue is confusing to disentangle, disentangling is half the fun in Proust ;)
I'm a bit disencouraged by some disliking the further Penguin translations while praising Vol. 1 by Davis, but I think i'll stick to the Penguin translations, I like their translation philosophy. The clickable annotations on Kindle are very helpful, too.