Cosmic’s Comments (group member since Jan 17, 2014)

Cosmic’s comments from the Breaking The Code To The Catcher In The Rye group.

Page 178,179.
Holden is fixing to leave his family's condo. He ask Phoebe for some money. Phoebe searches in the dark. "It was pitch-black, it was so dark in the room." ..."She was trying to give me the dough, but she couldn't find my hand."..."How much is it for God's sake?" "Eight dollars and eighty-five cents. Sixty-five cents, I spent some."
"Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared hell out of old Phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddam dime. I was still sitting on the edge of the bed when I did it, and she put her old arm around my neck, and I put my arm around her, too, but I still couldn't stop for a long time. I thought I was going to choke to death or something. Boy, I scared hell out of poor old Phoebe. The damn window was open and everything, and I could feel her shivering and all, because all she had on was her pajamas. I tried to make her get back in bed, but she wouldn't go. Finally I stopped. But it certainly took me a long, long time. Then I finished buttoning my coat and all. I told her I'd keep in touch with her. She told me I could sleep with her if I wanted to, but I said no, that I'd better beat it, that Mr. Antolini was waiting for me and all. Then I took my hunting hat out of my coat pocket and gave it to her. She likes those kind of crazy hats. She didn't want to take it, but I made her. I'll bet she slept with it on. She really likes those kind of hats. Then I told her again I'd give her a buzz if I got a chance, and then I left. "


Eight could represent "December 8, 1941 - The United States, led by US president, Franklin D Roosevelt, declares war on the Axis powers."http://www.datesandevents.org/events-...

She says she has 85 cents and then corrects herself by saying 65 cents. The difference between those two numbers is 20. So she spent 20, which might refer to: "August 6: The United States drops atomic bomb on Hiroshima (20 kiloton bomb 'Little Boy' kills 80,000)"

The word sixty was italicized in the book. This might refer to: " World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. Over 60 million people were killed, which was over 2.5% of the world population. " http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...

Sixty-five may refer to the 65th division. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/65th_I... 65th Infantry Division—nicknamed the "Battle-axe"—was an infantry division of the United States Army that served in World War II. Its shoulder patch is a white halberd on a blue shield.
http://www.lonesentry.com/65thbook/in...


Pennsylvania route 65 is named after this infantry. The route begins in the Golden Triangle of Pittsburgh. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden... The area features offices for major corporations such as PNC Bank, U.S. Steel, PPG, Bank of New York Mellon, Heinz, Federated Investors and Alcoa. It is where the fortunes of such industrial barons as Andrew Carnegie, Henry Clay Frick, Henry J. Heinz, Andrew Mellon and George Westinghouse were made. Did these companies profit from the war?
Overseas: 10 January 1945.
Campaigns: Rhineland, Central Europe.
Days of combat: 55

Now that I have taken another look at the number sixty I think that only the "six" is italicized. This would be a reference to the six million Jews that were killed in WW2.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...

This would explain Holden emotional out burst. Phoebe tries to comfort him. Holden says it was it was no use because "once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddam dime. "

What about this "goddam dime"? First it is in italics just like the number six-ty.



The dime was called a mercury dime. Designed by Adolph Weinman and also referred to as the Winged Liberty Head dime, it gained its common name as the obverse depiction of a young Liberty, identifiable by her winged Phrygian cap, was confused with the Roman god Mercury.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph...
Weinman's dime depicts Liberty (not Mercury) with a wreath of tight curls, and wearing a traditional pileus, or Liberty cap. The pileus was especially associated with the manumission of slaves. who wore it upon their liberation. It became emblematic of liberty and freedom from bondage.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pileus...
Among the Romans the cap of felt was the emblem of liberty. When a slave obtained his freedom he had his head shaved, and wore instead of his hair an undyed pileus. Hence the phrase servos ad pileum vocare is a summons to liberty, by which slaves were frequently called upon to take up arms with a promise of liberty.
"The reverse depicts a fasces, the object carried by lictors, who accompanied Roman magistrates; on the coin it represents war and justice. It is contrasted with a large olive branch symbolizing peace.[25][26] According to Breen, "Weinman's symbolic message in this design ... was clearly an updated 'Don't tread on me'".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercur...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces

Fasces (/ˈfæsiːz/, a plurale tantum, from the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle")[1] is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe with its blade emerging. The fasces had its origin in the Etruscan civilization, and was passed on to ancient Rome, where it symbolized a magistrate's power and jurisdiction. The image has survived as a representation of magisterial or collective power. Fasces frequently occurs as a charge in heraldry, as well as on the US dime, as the symbol of a number of Italian socialist parties, including the Unione Sindacale Italiana, and the namesake of fascism.

The symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity; a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is very difficult to break. The axe represented the power over life or death through the death penalty, although after the laws of the twelve tables, no Roman magistrate could summarily execute a Roman citizen.
The term is related to the modern Italian word fascio, used in the 20th century to designate peasant cooperatives and industrial workers' unions.

Numerous governments and other authorities have used the image of the fasces for a symbol of power since the end of the Roman Empire. It has also been used to hearken back to the Roman republic, particularly by those who see themselves as modern-day successors to the old republic and/or its ideals. Italian Fascism, which derives its name from the fasces, arguably used this symbolism the most in the 20th century. The British Union of Fascists also used it in the 1930s. However, the fasces, as a widespread and long-established symbol in the West, has avoided the stigma associated with much of fascist symbolism, and many authorities continue to display them, including the federal government of the United States."

Eventually Holden gives Phoebe back her money.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_...
"The term "Madison Avenue" is often used metonymically for advertising, and Madison Avenue became identified with the American advertising industry after the explosive growth in this area in the 1920s.[citation needed]
According to "The Emergence of Advertising in America", by the year 1861, there were twenty advertising agencies in New York City; and in 1911, the New York City Association of Advertising Agencies was founded, predating the establishment of the American Association of Advertising Agencies by several years.

The record is by Little Shirley Beans.

Who is Beans?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean

Phantly Roy Bean, Jr. (c. 1825 – March 16, 1903) was an eccentric U.S. saloon-keeper and Justice of the Peace in Val Verde County, Texas, who called himself "The Law West of the Pecos". According to legend, Judge Roy Bean held court in his saloon along the Rio Grande in a desolate stretch of the Chihuahuan Desert of southwest Texas. After his death, Western films and books cast him as a hanging judge, though he is known to have sentenced only two men to hang, one of whom escaped.

A Texas Ranger requested that a local law jurisdiction be set up in Vinegaroon, and on August 2, 1882, Bean was appointed Justice of the Peace for the new Precinct 6 in Pecos County.[7] His first case had, however, been heard on 25 July 1882, when Texas Rangers brought him Joe Bell to be tried.[8]

One of his first acts as a justice of the peace was to "shoot[...] up the saloon shack of a Jewish competitor".[7] Bean then turned his tent saloon into a part-time courtroom and began calling himself the "Law West of the Pecos."[7] As judge, Bean relied on a single lawbook, the 1879 edition of the Revised Statutes of Texas. If newer lawbooks appeared, Bean used them as kindling.[9]

Little Shirley Bean

"I started walking over toward Broadway, just for the hell of it, because I hadn't been over there in years. Besides, I wanted to find a record store that was open on Sunday. There was this record I wanted to get for Phoebe, called "Little Shirley Beans." It was a very hard record to get. It was about a little kid that wouldn't go out of the house because two of her front teeth were out and she was ashamed to. I heard it at Pencey. " page 14

Shirley Temple's first movie was called "Stand Up And Cheer" . http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_...!

"The President of the United States decides that the true cause of the Great Depression (raging when the film was released) is a loss of "optimism" as a result of a plot by financiers and bankers who are getting rich from the Depression. The President then appoints Lawrence Cromwell as secretary for the newly created Department of Amusement."

If you look at 4:00 you will see Shirley dressed up in her military uniform.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVJv4K...


This is one of my favorite songs from the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pshgQ6...

The next place the record is mentioned is on page 153:
"When I finally got down off the radiator and went out to the hat-check room, I was crying and all. I don't know why, but I was. I guess it was because I was feeling so damn depressed and lonesome. Then, when I went out to the checkroom, I couldn't find my goddam check. The hat-check girl was very nice about it, though. She gave me my coat anyway. And my "Little Shirley Beans" record--I still had it with me and all. I gave her a buck for being so nice, but she wouldn't take it. She kept telling me to go home and go to bed. I sort of tried to make a date with her for when she got through working, but she wouldn't do it. She said she was old enough to be my mother and all. I showed her my goddam gray hair and told her I was forty-two--I was only horsing around, naturally. She was nice, though. I showed her my goddam red hunting hat, and she liked it. She made me put it on before I went out, because my hair was still pretty wet. She was all right. "

It is ironic that Shirley Temple's movie is about optimism and as he talks about is being depressed. He is depressed when he goes to the hat room. Maybe there are other people hunting hats in there. Also notice that he has his hunting hat on...and that he is all wet. I think this is a foreshadow of the carousel, when Holden suits on the park bench with his hat hunting hat, the 'people hunting' hat on his head, getting drenched.

42?
In the spring of 1942, several months after the United States entered World War II, Salinger was drafted into the army, wherein he saw combat with the 12th Infantry Regiment, 4th Infantry Division.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._D._...


https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I think the Bean in the name, "Little Shirley Bean" refers to Roy Bean.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bean
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Be...
He walks over to Madison Ave. Then he decides to go to the park and look for the ducks at night. He goes down to Central Park South (page 154) something terrible happens when he gets in the park. Holden drops the record and it breaks into fifty pieces.

Why do you think the number Fifty might be significant?
I found out that:
The word soldier is used 50 times in the Bible.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_(nu...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madiso...
Madison Ave was named after James Madison.

" As president (1809–17), James Madison, after the failure of diplomatic protests and a trade embargo against Great Britain, he led the nation into the War of 1812. He was responding to British encroachments on American honor and rights; in addition, he wanted to end the influence of the British among their Indian allies, whose resistance blocked United States settlement in the Midwest around the Great Lakes. Madison found the war to be an administrative nightmare, as the United States had neither a strong army nor financial system; as a result, he afterward supported a stronger national government and a strong military, as well as the national bank, which he had long opposed. "

So this record is a broken record.
How did optimism play a part in the war we are in today?

Edward wrote: "Years ago I saw a Jean Luc Godard movie I haven't been able to relocate. At any rate the plotline was that the government of France would post phony films of a war going on somewhere, and use that ..."

I think this resonates with what Salinger is trying to say with all the references to the different media and artist. Have you read The 39 Steps? This book contains things in it that are intertextually mentioned in the Catcher.

She said, "Keep your hands to yourself, if you don't mind." She was still sore at me. But not as sore as she was before. Anyway, we kept getting closer and closer to the carrousel and you could start to hear that nutty music it always plays. It was playing "Oh, Marie!" It played that same song about fifty years ago when I (Salinger?) was a little kid. That's one nice thing about carrousels (stock market https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...), they always play the same songs. "

"Oh Marie"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq4PuP...

Holden says that this was the same song that was playing fifty years ago. (Page 210). So this is the reason that I picked the Tony Paster version.

I think the reason for mentioning this song is the man Tony Pastor.

Tony Pastor (May 28, 1837 – August 26, 1908) was an American impresario, variety performer and theatre owner who became one of the founding forces behind American vaudeville in the mid-to-late nineteenth century. The strongest elements of his entertainments were an almost jingoistic brand of United States patriotism and a strong commitment to attracting a mixed-gender audience, the latter being something revolutionary in the male-oriented variety halls of the mid-century.

Tony Pastor was the "Father of Vaudeville". http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_P...

Vaudeville was popular before WWI. When cinema started charging less per show Vaudeville couldn't compete.

Vaudeville was separate unrelated acts grouped together. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaudev...

" Lured by greater salaries and less arduous working conditions, many performers and personalities, such as Al Jolson, W. C. Fields, Mae West, Buster Keaton, the Marx Brothers, Jimmy Durante, Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, Edgar Bergen, Fanny Brice, Burns and Allen, and Eddie Cantor, used the prominence gained in live variety performance to vault into the new medium of cinema. The shift of New York City's Palace Theatre, vaudeville's epicenter, to an exclusively cinema presentation on November 16, 1932 is often considered to have been the death knell of vaudeville.[12] "

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace...
Cinema would usurp vaudeville acts.

" By 1932, the Palace moved to four shows a day and lowered its admission price. In November of that year, it was rebranded the "RKO Palace" and converted to a cinema. "

Cosmic wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Interesting thought. What is more interesting is how Franco managed to stay out of the war. ."

Have you read this book?

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler

Or this article? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004...

Google "Spain WW2 conspiracy" . Wars are designed to benefit certain people. " The richer the school the more crooks it has."

Matthew wrote: "Interesting thought. What is more interesting is how Franco managed to stay out of the war. ."

Have you read this book?

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler

I have not but I would like to. I Googled "Spain WW2 conspiracy" and a site I am not totally familiar with referenced this book. Since this confirms my study of the Catcher In The Rye I am intrigued to say the least.

Edward wrote: "looked at a map of Central Park and noticed a "pond" at the Southern end, while what they called a "lake" was more South Central. Does this lead you anywhere in terms of war? ..."

Have you found the Grand Army Plaza yet?
When Holden goes to the park he again repeats that he is going to Central Park South.


From wiki:
The portion of the street forming the southern boundary of Central Park from Columbus Circle at Eighth Avenue/Central Park West on the west to Grand Army Plaza at Fifth Avenue on the east is known as Central Park South. Entry into Central Park can be made at the Scholars' Gate at Fifth Avenue, the Artists' Gate at Sixth Avenue, the Artisans' Gate at Seventh Avenue, and the Merchants' Gate at Columbus Circle. Central Park South contains four famous upscale hotels: the Plaza Hotel, the Ritz-Carlton (Central Park), which is the flagship of the Ritz-Carlton chain, the Park Lane, and JW Marriott Essex House."

I plan to post something about this this week.

Edward wrote: "Are you saying that you see Central Park South as symbolic of war? If so, why does Holden, who wants to sty out of the cemetery keep going back there of his own volition?
..."

Have you read the introduction to this group?
I am interpreting the book through the lens of WW2 or war.

What does South Central Park have to do with war?
Well that is where the Grand (a word Holden says he hates) Army Plaza is there.

I do not hold to the premise that this book is about mental illness or teenage angst...it might be that too. But I think that the important message of the book is in the "code".

Here is the home page of the group.

Edward wrote: "Ducks are stated generically (not sure if that's the right word) as opposed to mallards or whatever other kinds of ducks there are, just as one would say people as opposed to Americans, Europeans, ..."

I guess there are more ways to view ducks. You can look at Donald Duck when he gets drafted. See message 6
You can see it as a pun for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW

I think that Central Park South is significant especially since it isn't referred that way to the locals. He says it three times at least. In the book when he repeats himself like that it is important. Grand Army Plaza is there and I think this is significant to the allegory being about war...breaking the record (war is a "broken record"). This park commemorates the Battle of Bull Run. When Holden is thinking about the DUCKS and talking to the teacher he mentions "bull" four or five times, which I also think is important.

Matthew wrote: "Were they trying to say that the allies purposely let the Germans off the hook?
Or was it just incompetence and bad decisions?"


Well if the war had not continued America could not have time to enter it. Since they had been tooling up since the 1920, it would seem to me a set-up.

See this link to show the preparation:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I have another post that I need to write this week to tie some of my thoughts together. Stay tune!

Well Edward you are interpreting the book literally. I believe the book is an allegory. I think the DUCKS are a symbol.

I am not going to challenge you view...as we would not be talking the same language anyway.

Have fun.

Edward wrote: "Possibly stupid thought, but, to me Pensey sounds more like Pennsylvania than Princeton. I think the state was founded by William Penn, a Quaker .........."

I can see that too. It was suppose to be in Pennsylvania.

Edward wrote: "The ducks still perplex me. It seems to me that the "expert" accepted interpretation of a natural migration is absolutely wrong. If JDS wanted to convey that he could have more effectively done tha..."

Great. He knows birds migrate South. Not only is he talking just about the DUCKS but also just the ones in Central Park South. So fit that into your equation.

Edward wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Edward wrote: ""Bambi" is another of my all time favorites. But, I only saw it emotionally. In reading of JDS I learned that he did permit a movie to be made of one of his books. How..."
The movie is not the same at all. Faline has a brother Gobo, who is missing in the movie.

Edward wrote: ""Bambi" is another of my all time favorites. But, I only saw it emotionally. In reading of JDS I learned that he did permit a movie to be made of one of his books. However, his insistence on having..."

I see Bambi as an allegory. Are you sure you read Felix Salten version?

Edward wrote: "Mark Twain; "I never let school interfere with my education." ..."

Albert Einstein didn't let it interfere with his either.

Edward wrote: " I've also been researching "expert" opinions of the duck symbolism. They don't even make any sense as they all say their migration (or disappearance) symbolizes Holden's acceptance of becoming a man. I suppose when they come back Holden will again become a boy. Straighten them out. ..."

I was so frustrated with what the "official" line was about this book that it immediately made me suspicious that there was something about the book that held a germ of truth. I decided to pretend that Salinger was going to give me an Ivy League education and I would go as far as I could through his school. So far I have been pleasantly surprised at what is hidden in plan sight.

One thing I admired was that he wouldn't let them make a movie of his book.

One book you should put on your list is Bambi

Read Wikipedia on it and you will see it was too adult for Disney. I always think this is why Holden says he hates the movies. They distort the story and make people think they have experienced the book.

Here is a reference to Le Grande Illusion being a movie that Salinger really liked. He saw it 10 times.
http://www.criterion.com/current/post...