From the Backlist: Why do Dads and Kids Leave when Moms leave the Church?
A few days ago, one of our bloggers was contacted and asked for feedback for an Area President on the following issue.
The Area President was wondering why in previous decades, if a husband stopped attending church, the wife would still come to church with the kids—but in recent years, if the wife stops attending church first, why does the husband tend to not keep coming with the kids? The Area President saw this phenomenon leading to “a generation [being] lost.”
Bloggers on our backlist listserv had a number of responses.
Libby:
Oh, wow. Does he realize that he’s talking about a systemic change? Because making church work for women would mean acknowledging that most of the “work” in the church is done by women on behalf of men, and that men get to come to church to feel important, whereas women come to church because we have to be there or things fall apart. The minute we realize that we don’t *have* to be there, that we’re not getting anything out of the relationship except maybe salvation at some later state, and that the “salvation” probably involves an eternity of the same kind of work with the same nonexistent rewards, we’re done. We like the community, and we enjoy being part of a group of people, but honestly we could have that with a good book club.
Candice Wendt:
Something that Neylan McBain said this fall really struck me. She said that about 10 years ago when she published “Women at Church,” a lot of LDS women were more content and religious. Ten years later, she’s noticing how most mainstream families have women who’ve gone through a feminist awakening during that time. They’ve become at least slightly less religious. Engaging literature and online voices has led them to deconstruct patriarchy and its role in the institutional church.
Anonymous Blogger:
When I look at my two extended families, I totally see this, ten years ago, we were mostly pretty orthodox and not talking about any concerns even if we had them. Today, virtually all my sisters and sisters-in-law and even my mom have gone through some measure of faith transition and discontentment with the institution has increased for all.
[Anonymous] and I have talked about how one trigger for feminist awakenings is all of us who have honest, strong-willed daughters who are allergic to patriarchal and tendencies to control and condition at church. My daughter was my big catalyst for my faith transition a few years ago. At age twelve, she told me church was a place she felt a lot of shame and where she experienced people trying to mold and control her and that she planned to leave once she had the freedom to. Today, while I attend church, my husband values it more than me. He thrives there more than me. We both know if I stop going, everything will fall apart and he won’t be able to motivate the kids to be involved. I can totally see how this is happening in so many families.
Libby:
I’m going to add, because I think it’s important: there are a lot of other churches that do more good in the community than the LDS Church does, and membership in them is not all-consuming. My best friend/business partner attends the local UU church, which hosts the local Pride festival, holds vigils against racism, raises money to help a huge number of causes, partners with a low-income church about half an hour away, hosts a postcard-writing campaign during election season, and has a really good consent-based sex-ed program (All Our Lives). It’s a huge force for good here. On the other hand, Mormons are seen as nice but insular, and much more worried about checking boxes than actually dealing with ethics on a higher level. If I joined the UU church, I’d already have friends there, wouldn’t ever have to give a talk over the pulpit, and would be well recognized (and profusely thanked) for anything i decided to lead or participate in.
We can no longer be an insular, self-serving church. What worked in the 1870s in the Rocky Mountains simply does not work on a global scale with instantaneous communication. Women in the 21st century have more power outside the home than we’ve ever had before in the history of the church, and we’re used to using it for good. We do not consider ourselves to be appendages to our husbands. Our children, half of whom are female and about 20% of whom identify as LGBTQ, are dear and precious to us and we do not want them to have the more limited lives their grandmothers had. And the sooner the church realizes that and starts treating us all as true equals, the more families it will keep. But it must change or it will increasingly lose those of us who understand our own worth.
Ann:
Oh what a live wire! I’m sure that area presidency member is thinking the feedback would be along the lines of “Relief Society should meet more frequently so women can have more friends.” I’m not sure he’s expecting that SO MUCH needs to change.
My biggest thing is that right now my ward Relief Society often feels like it’s a rehash of Young Womens in 1999. I would prefer that Relief Society reflect that I’m a grown up and that it’s 2025. I don’t need feel good lessons with cutesy handouts and overly emotional songs. I need actual spiritual nourishment. And listening to a regurgitated conference talk is NOT going to cut it.
Mindy May Farmer:
For a really long time, I was praised by church members for being an example of how a “modern woman” could remain faithful. Unfortunately, I believed them and, when I trusted the church to listen to women and progress, even in small ways, I was continually disappointed. The shaming I experienced as I tried to remain faithful and share spiritual promptings I received shattered my testimony. I did what I’d been told to do all of my life. I prayed, listened to the spirit, and attended the temple. But I had no authority, even over my own spiritual life.
When I’d try to discuss these issues with other women, they’d often get defensive or shut down and even pity me. Men would be condescending and dismissive. Over time, I realized that staying made me constantly angry, sad, and depressed. I found community elsewhere and decided to no longer waste my time and energy fighting for crumbs or a seat near the patriarchal table.
At one point in my life, I was ready to compromise. Every compromise I tried was rejected. Now it’s not enough. I want full equality. I don’t need the church to be a good person or to want to do good. I’m not rushing into sin or ignoring my spiritual life. I only engage with the church because my husband and (some) kids do. One day, when my kids are grown and all making their own choices, I hope to let it go entirely except to support my husband in his spiritual journey.
Kara Stevenson:
I think someone made a comment on one of these threads that if the church just had women involved in the decision-making processes, especially at the very top with the general authorities, so many of these issues would go away. I couldn’t agree more.
If this area authority really wants to know what women think, then he should be advocating for that. Women need to be in the room where it happens. Give them a microphone at general conference. Magnify their voices by reading, studying, and quoting more of their talks.
Let them sit on the stand and hold callings like Sunday school presidency and financial clerk. Let them make decisions without the approval of a man. Involve the young women more.
Reflect on sexist teachings like polygamy and D&C 132. Consider how women used to give blessings in the church, yet that was stripped away from them *by men.* Think about the sexist undertones that were in the temple and that surround the topic of modesty.
I appreciate that he’s asking the question. But he could just sit back and relax and let the women solve the issues that women face if they were just given the authority to do so. Is it fair to say that only women can really solve women’s issues?
Kelly Ann:
We need male allies. But to Kara’s point, there are no women in the middle or upper management so to speak. An area authority seventy only regularly meets with stake presidents. Coordinating councils are only men. When the whole thing with women on the stand in the Bay Area happened, and the stake RS president asked to speak to the visiting authorities, they apparently asked Bednar for permission. There is no direct link between stake relief society presidents and general auxiliary leaders. There needs to be regular channels in which leaders are connected to women – not just an ad hoc, even if well intentioned, ask for feedback
Heidi Toth:
This is a really interesting thread, and I agree with all the responses. I do think the question of why men don’t keep going is also really interesting. Do men have less strong testimonies? Less commitment? Why aren’t they “dutifully” going to church? It is arguably more their duty as priesthood holders than it is for women. Leaving aside how the church could be better for women for a moment, perhaps the church should look into why men aren’t that committed.
As for what needs to change to get better for women … Libby’s first comment about being systemic is just what I keep coming back to. No matter how good a ward or a bishop is, how much a woman wears pants or speaks up in class or gives feminist talks, there’s still the systemic inequality that has to change from the top. And as women are increasingly in the workforce and in universities and in positions of leadership everywhere else, and girls are experiencing equality everywhere else, what do they expect to happen?
This just inspired a “patriarchy is bad for EVERYONE” rant in my head. It’s not just women. The church is losing people because more and more members are looking around and seeing something better. It’s more women because the church is worse for women and I think it’s harder for men to see inequality, but I know there are men who don’t find garments comfortable and don’t appreciate being told they have to wear them and don’t like how women and girls are treated and aren’t comfortable with what happens with tithing money or abuse cases.
Katherine Ponczoch:
I’m really bothered by the phrase “a generation is lost.” I would ask the leader to consider whether we know that to be true. We need to respect everyone’s journey and agency. The assumption that people are lost if they choose a different spiritual path is faulty and offensive.
I left three years before my husband. There was nothing for me there but heartache and invisibility. No growth, no peace, no hope. It had become too toxic and painful. I saw a lot of hypocrisy and clinging to “one true church” and demands for a rigid, performant lifestyle. I needed pluralism, “how can we better truly serve the community”, and “here’s something we can add to your life”. The church doesn’t want to change, so it won’t be right for everyone. Leaders need to learn to let people leave with dignity when it’s no longer a good fit.
The church I would go back to would be so vastly different it would not be recognizable. And that’s not the church most members want.
ElleK/Lindsay Denton:
I’m impressed they’re noticing that they’re losing women at all (even if just because they’re losing men). I find it very telling that they’re not all that concerned about losing women, just their children and priesthood holding husbands. The trend he noticed is absolutely what happened in my family. Everyone on this thread has already said exactly this, but I’m going to say it again because it bears repeating in as many different ways as we can say it.
The cause of the trend is that women and girls are more restricted and have fewer opportunities at church than in any other sphere in their lives. The disparity is glaring and upsetting, especially for our feminist daughters, who are not used to being held back just because they’re girls. I would never keep taking my girls (or my son, honestly) to a school or club or team that gave boys special privileges just for being boys, regardless of whether they wanted them or not, and withheld them from girls. Why should we tolerate treatment from the church that we would never ever tolerate anywhere else? Women also lose faith over things like polygamy, treatment of LGBTQ people, racism, and church history.
So women stop going. And because 99% of the time women are the ones who actually get the kids ready and out the door, which is a HUGE amount of labor that men in leadership cannot possibly appreciate, men who mean to bring their children to church just piddle out because it’s too much effort, and then they fall out of the habit. And a fair percentage of the time, the men lose their faith as well.
The solution, which your area authority absolutely did not ask for, requires systemic change the church is not willing to make.
Lavender:
Yes to all of this. Also, in my personal experience, I attended church for ten years after my husband left and there were so many times that I thought, “If my husband still attended and supported this church that treats me and all women this way, it would break my love for him.” There were so many times when I was Primary President that I went home to him and thanked him for not believing in the priesthood. The priesthood that makes men rule over women, gives them power and privileges that I am barred from because I am a woman. I continued to attend a church that continually infantilized, silenced, and oppressed me because I loved the gospel and the generous, beautiful people in my community. . . And for a thousand complicated, unknown reasons I’m trying to understand. But when my husband left the church and LDS beliefs behind, we were made equal for the first time in our marriage.
Alternatively, my sister left the church before her husband and he only lasted a couple months before he gave it all up, too. And she said their marriage almost didn’t make it. Once she saw the discrepancy, she couldn’t tolerate her husband supporting a church that placed him above her in every way. Very soon after, he couldn’t either.
Bailey:
Women are tired. The emotional labor to uphold the church structure is grinding. The church is structured with a dominator model where men rule over women and gender minorities. In this model, women are exploited, meaning that the church uses women in an unfair, selfish way. The church uses women to prop up men’s sense of identity and purpose. The church wears down women by exploiting the human desire for community and connection by telling women manipulative messages about gender roles; that if only women follow these gender roles then everything will be ok. Messages include: women are holy and must do holy things like cook meals, wash dishes, and make beds. They are too holy to do service like passing the sacrament or leading a congregation. If women disagree, they are told they aren’t following God and that they are going to bring about the downfall of society. Women must serve. Women must support men. Women are so, so special. This specialness means that women must be protected from The World. This means women should not go to work where they might encounter men, or dirty themselves with politics, or be greedy by aspiring to have the priesthood, or some other thing that men have. It’s wrong for women to want what men have. God said so. Women have a different job to do than men. It’s such a special job. The role of women serves the dominator model. In this model, men are told that they are strong, powerful protectors. They get to serve with the priesthood. This makes them Feel Very Good About Themselves. It gives them an identity, a sense of purpose. However, men’s identity and sense of purpose comes at the cost of women working to make themselves disappear through service. Our souls feel the wrongness of this; women are waking up and saying “no thank you” and leaving.
The temple is a particularly pernicious part of this messaging. Even after the 2019 changes, spiritual coverture is still in the temple; in a legal sense, women still do not exist as their own person in the temple the same as married women didn’t legally exist under legal coverture. Women are smart and aware of our own worth so we don’t need to stick around for a church that is more about our subordination than it is about Jesus and building a community that supports each other as we journey together through life.
The line “that a whole generation is lost” is indicative that the area president has views that come from this dominator model. In this model, men have a right to what women’s bodies produce. The church thinks it has a right to the kids a woman’s body produces. Is this area authority as worried about the spiritual well-being of individual women as he is about the generation that is “lost”?
Bailey:
I reread the responses and they are great. I keep thinking women are hungry. Church is giving us stale Cheetos. Why would we keep going? I say this as someone who loves Jesus, the good news of Jesus, and who still attends sacrament meeting. I can’t take rehashed general conference talks anymore so I stopped attending RS last year. This year I am skipping Sunday School because studying Doctrine and Covenants is like watching a horror movie where you know something (polygamy) is going to jump out of a closet and kill you.
Since the pandemic, both my sister and sister-in-law who are both ten years younger than me have stopped attending. Their husbands and kids stopped then too. There is enough of an age difference between us (47 vs 37) that they aren’t willing to put up with dragging their kids to a place that is going to focus on gender roles more than Jesus like I did. They are both very much aware of how patriarchy damages both females and males.
Melissa Tyler:
I stopped attending at the first of this year…consequently, my three daughters stopped going as well.
My husband still goes. He does not participate in anything a woman cannot do, yet he still goes.
I did not want my number included in the weekly count. I did not want to consent to the rhetoric anymore by just being there….and my body count being used against me.
Bailey:
One more thought from me. While I am still impressed that this area president asked for feedback, his question is a general question that applies to any exploitative system.
How can we [the people in power] make [fill in the blank] better for [the group being exploited].
How can we, the male leadership, make church better for women?
More examples:
How can Bezos make working in an Amazon warehouse better for people who work there?
How can big ag make working in the fields better for the undocumented people who work there?
How could factory owners make factories better for the people working there?
How could medieval kings make subsistence farming better for serfs?
And on and on.
The answer, every. single. time. is to stop exploiting people and change the system from domination to partnership.
