Penric series renumbering puzzle
So...
I'm am about to drop what most people will construe as a prequel into the Penric & Desdemona series, and, for those vendors who require numbers, the question has come up whether to number it in publication order, in which case it would be #5, or number it in current-internal-chronology order, in which case it would be #3, and renumber the volumes following.
Whichever we choose will likely set the plan for future entries, although whenever a story occurs at the working face of the timeline, it would come out the same.
Any thoughts you all have as as readers or e-book buyers? Help yourselves to the comments section.
Later: I should add, decimal numbering has already been decided against. It has to be either chronological or publication, in integers.
Note we're working across 3 different vendor platforms, and the least flexible drives the whole.
Ta, L.
I'm am about to drop what most people will construe as a prequel into the Penric & Desdemona series, and, for those vendors who require numbers, the question has come up whether to number it in publication order, in which case it would be #5, or number it in current-internal-chronology order, in which case it would be #3, and renumber the volumes following.
Whichever we choose will likely set the plan for future entries, although whenever a story occurs at the working face of the timeline, it would come out the same.
Any thoughts you all have as as readers or e-book buyers? Help yourselves to the comments section.
Later: I should add, decimal numbering has already been decided against. It has to be either chronological or publication, in integers.
Note we're working across 3 different vendor platforms, and the least flexible drives the whole.
Ta, L.
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Ed
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Aug 02, 2017 10:12AM
My own take (and the way I would add it to the calibre-managed ebook library I'm building) would be to put it in as "Penric & Desdemona [2.5]" since that preserves the internal chronology of the series and allows room for other stories between "Penric and the Shaman" and "Penric's Mission," whether they precede or follow "Penric's Fox."
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Are you referring to Penric's Fox, with internal chronology between Penric and the Shaman and Penric's Mission, in which case I would guess "2.5" (or 2.3, if you plan to put more between Penric's Fox and Penric's Mission).Or, do you mean a prequel to Penric's Demon? In which case I would guess "0.5" or some such.
In either case, your hard core fans will read and enjoy, using this blog and/or fan sites and the descriptive info provided to figure out where it fits. And some others will be confused and complain. I don't think there is a way to keep that from happening. I have seen reviews where people complain about the stupidest things, the equivalent of "why did it get bright in the mornings when the sun came up, when the world KNOWS I work nights and need to sleep in the day time."
This may seem odd and possibly unworkable, but what do you think about numbering them according to the year/month of the story since the beginning of the series. The first book could be 1.1, the following books would be numbered as 1.6 or 8.10, like that. That would make it easy to slide in other books.
2.5 or similar is what I've seen most often and would find most comprehensible.I suppose you could have fun with it though :)
I prefer to read books in order of the storyline, unless the author specifically intends otherwise. Don't know whether you can simply adjust numbers every time you wish to shoehorn one in, thus doing as you describe; that would work for me. Otherwise, 2.5 works.And thanks for the new story! I'm really enjoying these.
Agree with most. Internal chronology is what I favor, rather than publication date.
How much of a hassle is renumbering? Most versions are digital so that might make it a little easier? Me, I'm so in love with Penric & Des that you could number it -25 and I would still gladly read it. ^^;
I'm in the camp of the [2.5] suggestions, and I believe Stephen King did something similar with his Dark Tower series! :)
Kelly wrote: "This may seem odd and possibly unworkable, but what do you think about numbering them according to the year/month of the story since the beginning of the series. The first book could be 1.1, the fo..."Alas, the vendor robots only understand integers.
Am glad now I haven't been putting numbers on the covers, though.
Ta, L.
Softness wrote: "How much of a hassle is renumbering? Most versions are digital so that might make it a little easier? Me, I'm so in love with Penric & Des that you could number it -25 and I would still gladly re..."
At present, apparently not too much hassle, which is inclining me toward internal-chronology.
Also, the confusion engendered by changing numbers won't last too long, and would only affect old readers/buyers, compared to the amount of time the chronological version would serve as brand-new readers filter in ongoing.
Hm.
Ta, L.
For a book series published over decades, this would be (and is!) the subject of great debate (I lean toward publication order, but that's neither here nor there). But for novellas like this, written over a fairly compact period of time? I think it's simpler to go with internal chronology. With Mira having the most cliffhanger-ish ending of the novellas so far, it would seem odd to insert this between it and whatever comes next. The reader receiving it now is Not Complaining, of course, not at all -- but as more people come to this set of novellas in the future, reading them in order of internal chronology seems like it will be the best route.
As it's more likely to affect new readers to the series than existing ones, I'd vote for renumbering if it's not a hassle. If they ever make it to print (I'm hoping they do), that will likely constrain the printed ones to whatever they're given at that point.
Kosigan wrote: "As it's more likely to affect new readers to the series than existing ones, I'd vote for renumbering if it's not a hassle. If they ever make it to print (I'm hoping they do), that will likely const..."I'm really liking the free-form, ala carte system for these tales that separate e-publication gives. Putting them in print in batches, at least prematurely, would seem to set their feet in concrete.
Well, that's a problem for another day. The trending of opinion, here and on my pro/business side, seems to favor internal-chronological, renumbering as needed, which I like from the writer-side as well.
The original Sherlock Holmes stories, I reflect, were able to get away with their sequence-mixed assemblages because they were all putatively written after the fact from Watson's viewpoint, who was doling them out as conversationally as a man telling anecdotes. They did have a general time trend, but it was by no means rigid.
Ta, L.
As a fan of the series, I don't really care. I'll read them all - and re-read them - no matter the official numbering.One thing you might consider is: how likely are you to write other "prequels"? Re-numbering the whole sequence now when there aren't too many won't be so bad. Even if you do it again, probably no big. But if you end up doing it a lot, it could be a pain. Just saying. ;)
(I raise the issue mostly because I have a great tendency to write stories myself that need to be wedged into the middles of my existing series. And it is a pain! Not sure what the solution is, but I - like you - am very glad that I didn't number the paper editions!)
Is everyone certain that Lois' fans who aren't fanatical enough to follow this blog, will discover new novellas, if they are slotted within the numbering, rather than at the end?
It's a shame that "decimal numbering" has been decided against, as that's both the popular answer (see all the comments, above) and the best one. With that ruled out, I would say that renumbering (while vastly annoying) is better than having "Volume 5" come before "Volume 3", for internal chronology.
Luckily, I'm a bit behind -- I've just finished "Penric and the Shaman," so it's very helpful for me to know that the new book will come next, before the others that have already been published.And I'm with the consensus opinion -- I prefer "internal chronology" numbering to publication order, so that I don't have to jump around in time when reading a series.
This could get messy quickly if more stories need to be slotted in so I prefer publication order with a list of the chronology available on your website/publisher etc.
Since renumbering is easy sticking with internal chronology seems best.
For me it depends on the individual series - some (like the Chronicles of Narnia) I think are best in publication order. Others (like Vorkosigan) I read in internal chronological order. Generally I think the author knows best. It seems like your writing style in the past has lent itself well to internal chronological ordering, so that's what I personally would lean toward for Penric, also.
I think publication order would be best and as Claire suggested above, have the chronology handy, perhaps even in each book as it is released.
I keep my book list on my own computer and I number a series in internal order, readjusting from time to time as publication dates go by. Because I REALLY prefer internal order.
I like publication order too, but that's easy to get a list/sortby, renumbering may only affect old readers, but I bet most of your readers are old readers.
Urk. Must it have an order number? Wouldn't no number at all be better than having to renumber a series time after time. and discourage any thoughts of writing another prequel?
There is rarely an instance where I want to read in publication order and not narrative chronological order. If there's no narrative reason for Penric and the Fox to be read after Mira's Last Dance, then let it be numbered #3.
Internal, especially since it's not on the cover. The copyright year provides a rough sort by publication order for those who prefer it. You could number the existing titles 10, 20, 30, 40, 41, providing options for filling in gaps later. Although, I'm sure that would confuse both software and new readers.
JudyM wrote: "Urk. Must it have an order number? Wouldn't no number at all be better than having to renumber a series time after time. and discourage any thoughts of writing another prequel?"The order number is required for the Amazon algorithms to connect up the series books for people browsing. (Part of the program, I presume.) So it is a very practical consideration in terms of sales, especially for new readers.
And it won't be me doing the renumbering with my own hands, so that part's duly delegated. And, if it proves unwieldy later, we can do something else I suppose. I don't write very fast in any case, nor is it a problem for tales not prequels, so it won't have to be tussled with all that often.
Note that it would be a whole 'nother and much more difficult set of issues if it were print and not e-pub.
I'm drifting toward renumbering, here. At least for this round. Results may trigger rethinking, but my whole career has been make-it-up-as-I-go-along, so that's no change.
Ta, L.
I'd re-number and see how it goes with this one, since it's a relatively minor shuffle. (And use the "sequel to" or "prequel of" as a cover indication for where things go, as needed.) If it turns out to be a Bad Result, then it's early-enough in that it will be a minor kerfluffle at worst. If it turns out to work nicely, then you just have to worry about doing the Number Shuffle down the line. (Finicky and tedious if you get a LOT, but eh, not impossible.)
Internal chronology, always! Also, this causes a question for me - I still haven't read the Penric series, but was planning to soon....should I wait for the new release, as it would be placed in the middle of the series, or I can read it later? I mean, are there any important tidbits that would make so much sense in book 4, or the chronology isn't so important here?
I'd agree with what seems to be the majority view - that timeline order is the way to go. Though I'm not sure what people like Amazon would do if you later wrote a novella that fitted into the timeline _before_ 'fox'. But I'm another who keeps any series numbered on my Kindle in timeline order, regardless of publication date, so it won't matter to me what your final decision might be.
Lala wrote: "Internal chronology, always! Also, this causes a question for me - I still haven't read the Penric series, but was planning to soon....should I wait for the new release, as it would be placed in ..."
Well, since Penric's Fox is due out within a very short time frame, if I were you I would read Penric's Demon at once followed by Penric and the Shaman, so you would be ready to read Penric's Fox as soon as it is released. Then you can continue on to Penric's Mission and Mira's Last Dance.
Jerri wrote: "Lala wrote: "Internal chronology, always! Also, this causes a question for me - I still haven't read the Penric series, but was planning to soon....should I wait for the new release, as it would ..."
Second this. Start with "Penric's Demon" asap, go on as seems fit.
Note that these tales are, at least to start, written as stand-alone novellas (not novels!), so there shouldn't be a "wrong" order, but I admit both I and old readers soon get tired of tutorial recaps as I go along, when there is so much new story waiting to be told. So I don't guarantee that this will always be the case. But you have enough here for going on with.
Ta, L.
Lala wrote: "Internal chronology, always! Also, this causes a question for me - I still haven't read the Penric series, but was planning to soon....should I wait for the new release, as it would be placed in ..."
All of my beta readers are old readers, but I was able to scare up one Penric-newbie volunteer who reported, hearteningly, "Does it stand alone? Absolutely!"
So I have that datum, although this reader is also an old hand at F&SF and the reading protocols thereof.
The later tales "Penric's Mission" and "Mira's Last Dance" are more closely connected, and should be read in order, but since you aren't encountering the series at random anyway, this won't matter to you for a while.
Think "series" more in the sense of "the Sherlock Holmes stories," less in the sense of "The Lord of the Rings."
For the record, for any other new readers looking at this, the current chronological order of the stories is:
Penric's Demon
Penric and the Shaman
Penric's Fox
Penric's Mission
Mira's Last Dance
As I've said, I'm not a fast writer, not to mention this semi-retired thing, so that won't change soon.
Ta, L.
I suppose it would be impossible to do a 2A or 2B?The other thing is to let the computers do their business, but at the corner of the cover and in the product description, update the number each time it needs to be updated. Or does that become a whole new book if you edit those features?
The timeline Baen had at the back of each book with a short blurb was really very helpful and useful, and I see you continue to do that in the Penrics. Since, so far, you tend to write them as stand-alone adventures, I think most people would be grateful to get past/future bonuses to the novella they are reading. But of course, gratefulness does not always get expressed, while mild miffed-ness tends to get sprayed far and wide. Mild miffed-ness: the safe form of anger management.
Lois wrote: "The order number is required for the Amazon algorithms to connect up the series books for people browsing. (Part of the program, I presume.) So it is a very practical consideration in terms of sales, especially for new readers."Recent Kindle updates have added some nice features where there's a "next book" button when you're viewing book info (noticed while re-reading Tana French's Dublin Murder Squad books recently), as well as the long-standing "buy the next book" link when you hit the end. I imagine having those things work right is as valuable to the author as the reader.
Looking forward to more Penric & Des! Yay.
I don't think it makes too much difference, we will love your creativity however it is numbered! Your philosophy of standalone obviates the requirement to read in order, as the vast popularity of your futureverse makes plain. Only, please keep writing; you are so good at interpersonal dynamics you have spoiled me for other writers. Pen and Des are great, but I'm hoping you'll also consider sometime how difficult it might be to grow up as Miles' daughter (thankfully, with Cordelia still around as grandmother to talk with), just as it was a challenge to grow up as Aral's son. After all, have any of Miles' adventures, even the serious brush with mortality, really qualified him to be an effective parent? And what might it be like having Mark as an uncle? The possibilities are endless!Cheers,
Ann
Ann you have whetted my desire to read that story. I think that obliges you to write it as a fanfic ;-)
PLEASE do not re number. It will cause terrible headaches. People will never be able to agree on WHAT book they're talking about. One reason I don't read superhero comics is because they constantly mess with the chronologies. It's a big mistake.
Gillian wrote: "PLEASE do not re number. It will cause terrible headaches. People will never be able to agree on WHAT book they're talking about. One reason I don't read superhero comics is because they constantly..."Mm. Since there are only 5 titles at this time, I don't think that will be an issue. If there were, say, 17, it might be another can of worms.
Anyway, since there is no particular consensus, we've decided to go with renumbering this time, and see what happens. (Which won't affect the first two in any case.) Depending on the results, and the need, we may or may not do it again. But at least we'll have data instead of just guesses.
Ta, L.
But at least we'll have data instead of just guesses.Unless there is a huge divergence from Fox's expected sales, it will be pretty crappy data where the noise drowns out the signal.
Seantheaussie wrote: "But at least we'll have data instead of just guesses.Unless there is a huge divergence from Fox's expected sales, it will be pretty crappy data where the noise drowns out the signal."
Well, if that's the case, conclusion will be that it doesn't much matter. Still useful to know.
(Where this might make any difference would be over extended time, not in the first month's pop. Which, naturally, we won't be able to discern for a while.)
Ta, L.
Where this might make any difference would be over extended time, not in the first month's pop.This can only have a positive benefit for those who have just discovered the series, in order for them to get their reading order right. I would think that most of these fans could get the same effect with reading order lists in the front and back of the books, with the out of order books in bold.
The negative effect will come from existing fans who simply don't realize you have a new book out, because they have read what appears to be the last one in the series. I estimate this would be the largest effect.
It will probably make a marginal difference either way, I hope your estimate of the direction of the difference pays off for you.
Seantheaussie wrote: "Where this might make any difference would be over extended time, not in the first month's pop.This can only have a positive benefit for those who have just discovered the series, in order for the..."
Not sure it will make any discernible difference in sales; I was calibrating for the number of likely complaints. Either way. I'm fairly sure, from the above informal survey, that it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't, for which the only solution is pick something and move on.
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: "Seantheaussie wrote: "Where this might make any difference would be over extended time, not in the first month's pop.This can only have a positive benefit for those who have just discovered the se..."
Complaints are just a sign of passion for your writing, so they are a good thing.
For me internal chronology, since these are all similar length novellas. Decimal works best with whole numbers for the "main books" when authors like to stick short stories between them. Winterfair gifts would (for example) be a decimal.
Some authors put a lot of shorts in between full length books, and they tend to be loose enough to not matter what order they are read in.
Daniel wrote: "For me internal chronology, since these are all similar length novellas. Decimal works best with whole numbers for the "main books" when authors like to stick short stories between them. Winterfa..."
Yes, that was a consideration that crossed my mind. Decimal would have made "Penric's Fox" sound like some little side story, instead of being of the same weight as the rest (so far.)
Ta, L.
When programming in BASIC with line numbers, I used to number my lines 10, 20, 30, 40 and so on so that later I could insert 15 or 33 without renumbering. If the vendor systems allow you to skip numbers, then you could take this opportunity to renumber as 10, 20, 25, 30, 40 and have room to squeeze more in later. Of course, this system was not perfect and renumbering was still needed every now and then, but it helped. This would also feel a bit silly on the cover of books, but it would be fine for back-end numbering.
An earlier suggestion of date-based numbering could also be melded to this strategy. Consider the series to have started in month 600 or 1000 and then number each installment with its starting month to always allow room for insertions. Again, this only works if the vendor accepts non-contiguous numbers.
Eric wrote: "When programming in BASIC with line numbers, I used to number my lines 10, 20, 30, 40 and so on so that later I could insert 15 or 33 without renumbering. If the vendor systems allow you to skip nu..."I think you are wildly overestimating the flexibility of both vendors and consumers. This is an advertisement, not a computer program, and the maximum eye-brain engagement is on the order of one second. KISS applies big-time in this case.
Ta, L.
What is all this flabberdashery? I never knew there was so much to do behind the scenes with self-publishing, but I hope it's at least a little easier for you overall. So you can focus less on numbers and more on words.The solution? Let's not number anything! And just read the story. Okay, not really a solution, but it's all I have... ^^
Softness wrote: "What is all this flabberdashery? I never knew there was so much to do behind the scenes with self-publishing, but I hope it's at least a little easier for you overall. So you can focus less on numb..."That would certainly be my preferred solution, but it leaves the newbie browser-potential-reader rather at sea. Not to mention the OCD ones having a meltdown.
I can by this time spot the Vorkosiverse reading-order debate in languages I don't even recognize, just by the way the pattern of titles falls on the page. I'm hoping to make it easier with Penric.
And, oh yes, the behind-the-scenes
Ta, L.
