Anna David's Blog, page 20

How Do I Use My Book to Get Speaking Gigs?

TABLE OF CONTENTS:

It's Not as Simple as Just Writing the Book


Jess Lahey Breaks It Down


Here's How to Start


It May Be Worth It to Give Your Book to the Audience


Writers Can Make a Ton of Money Speaking

 

The Audience Can Be Your Future Clients

 

It's Not as Simple as Just Writing the Book

If an event organizer is considering two different people to speak on a certain topic and one of those people is a bestselling author, that person is going to get the gig. But it is not as simple as writing a book and waiting for these speaking offers to come in. You have to get very, very proactive.

Jess Lahey Breaks It Down

In another episode, Jessica Lahey, who's a New York Times best-selling author and has a law degree and is an educator and a teacher, walked me through what her process is.

Basically, she wrote thousands of letters to heads of schools, to principals, to superintendents with a passage from her book way before it was coming out and explained why it would be a really great book to show for their community and offered to come in and speak. 

Then she said, "This is what the speech would look like. I could talk to your students as well as your teachers. And by the way, did you know that this is this could be part of your professional development budget that could pay for it? By the way, a parent association budget can pay for it."

So she went in there and really did the whole job for them, made the decision for them and broke down how they could do it.

So it should be no surprise that she speaks all over now if you want to speak.

Here's How to Start

Brainstorm a list of organizations that are related to your topic and start making a list—maybe an Excel spreadsheet—and start figuring out who to contact there.

You may need to contact somebody who's going to send you to the right person, but just stay on it.

This is what my friend Ryan Hampton did and it worked beautifully. He had a book about addiction and recovery and the opiate crisis. So he reached out to rehabs all over the country and said, "You do not have to pay me. I will fly myself there. All you have to do is buy books." And he set it up so that the organization, the rehab in this case, would buy books through a site called BookPal, which does bulk orders at a discount. It also reports to the bestseller lists.

Then he would figure out how to make his speaking event at said rehab into a local media event, and he would then reach out to local press there. Therefore, it's not just something that the rehab is getting for free but you are bringing press to this rehab or organization. 

And he sold there was an organization that bought 1000 copies of his book that way.

It May Be Worth It to Give Your Book to the Audience

Previous podcast guest Cameron Herold talked about how he used to take 10 copies of his book with him, sell it to the first ten people that came up to him for twenty bucks, make two hundred dollars and then go get a massage or do whatever you do with two hundred dollars when you're visiting.

Then he met the former VP of marketing for Kodak and saw that that guy handed out his book for free to everyone in the audience—like 200 people. And that seemed counterintuitive: he thought why would he do that?

Then he realized if he was getting one client from that, it was so worth it, especially if, for bulk orders, he could be getting paperback copies for three or four dollars a book. 

So he started to do that and he started to realize that he would get more speaking offers, more coaching clients, more of everything. And so now what he does is every time he's booked as a speaker, he reaches out, he does the deal, he does the contract, and he reaches out afterward and says, "Oh, I forgot to ask you about books. How many people will be there? I can send books for everybody for ten dollars, including shipping." 

And he said usually they come back and go, "That's great. There are 300 people." And he sends an invoice for three thousand dollars. And if they don't, then he covers the three thousand dollars. And even though that is expensive, it is more than worth it for what comes in as a result.

Writers Can Make a Ton of Money Speaking

I used to do more speaking really just at colleges and I would get $2-3 thousand dollars and while I never went anywhere glamorous, I went to these tiny towns all over the country that I never would see otherwise.

Malcolm Gladwell and Tim Ferriss get fifty thousand dollars and Simon Sinek gets  200 thousand dollars. So it is definitely a way to make extra income.

Create a Speaking Page on Your Website

Make yourself available as a speaker by creating a speaking page for your site. Put reviews—try to get a testimonial from the person who booked you. Put together a reel. I sometimes will just trot out my phone and ask people who come up to me after I speak to thank me, "Hey, could I get you to say this on video?"

On your speaking page on your site, have your reel, have testimonials, have lists of places you've spoken, have paragraph-long summaries of the keynotes that you can give, have pictures of you speaking, have everything that you can so that somebody can just click on that and know that you'll kill it.

And why not buy your name plus speaking as a domain? (I used to have annadavidspeaking.com but I let it go.)

The Audience Can Be Your Future Clients

Some venues and events are very open to you, quote, selling from the stage, while others are not. I did three TED talks. You are not allowed to sell from the stage and selling can mean your services as a coach, whatever it is. But many of us do use that opportunity to get people on our email list. 

And you can offer to send anybody in the audience the slide deck or anything else. Sometimes people will actually have a number that you can text and they'll say, "Text me right now and we'll get you a copy of the slide deck" or "We'll get you this one sheet cheat sheet"—just come up with some way to keep in touch with these people afterward.  

RELEVANT LINKS:

BookPal

Cameron Herold episode

My speaking page 

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

QUOTE OF THE POD:

"If an event organizer is considering two different people to speak on a certain topic and one of those people has a book and is a bestselling author, that person is going to get the gig. But it is not as simple as writing a book and waiting for these speaking offers to come in. You have to get very, very proactive."

How Do I Get Blurbs for my Book?

TO SEE ME ANSWER THIS QUESTION ON VIDEO, CLICK HERE

TABLE OF CONTENTS:

What is a Blurb?
Why Blurbs Don't Matter
We All Think We're the Exception
A Blurb is a HUGE Request
To Increase Your Chances...
Strategically Befriend Micro-Influencers
You Only Need One—or None


What is a Blurb?

Somehow people have morphed this word so when a lot of independent publishers say "blurb," they mean like book description. A blurb is an endorsement. It is one of those nice little or long quotes from luminaries that you see on the cover, on the back cover on Amazon that you see all over the place.

They are also one of the most misunderstood book marketing tactics.

 Why Blurbs Don't Matter

Think about your book-buying experiences.

Have you ever bought a book because of the blurb?

Like, Oh, holy shit, yeah. John Smith blurb that I better, but nobody does that.

Blurbs are simply sort of social credit and validity and they show our legitimacy and all of these things.

But as an author and as a publisher of many authors, I have both experienced and seen how misunderstood they are.

We All Think We're the Exception

What happens is an author gets really excited about their book. If you're an author, you feel me. You think everybody is really excited about your book. You think, "You know what I'd really like? Let's get Elizabeth Gilbert and Glennon Doyle and Brene Brown to blurb my book." The problem is millions of people all over the world are thinking the same thing.

So what you think is, "Well, I know millions of people are thinking that, but if they read my book, they're going to want to blurb mine." The problem is Glennon, Elizabeth and Brene already have a long list of really good friends who want them to blurb their books. And I know this because I am certainly not Elizabeth Gilbert, Glennon Doyle, or Brene Brown and I have that.

A Blurb is a HUGE Request

For my first book, Party Girl, I didn't know. I just thought you just ask hundreds and hundreds of people. So I asked everyone I knew, which was mistake number one, because I couldn't use all of them. So now I've had somebody do me this enormous favor of reading my book, and I'm not even using what they did.

But I got lucky that first time.

I was out and I saw Jerry Stahl, who is like the person who made me want to be a writer and I basically said, "Oh, my God, you made me want to be a writer. I have my first book coming out in eight months" or whatever. And he very generously said to me something I never say to anybody. He said, "Would you like me to blurb your book?"

And I was blown away. It turns out Jerry Stahl is the most generous. There could be a club for people whose Jerry Stahl blurbed our first books, but he wrote me the nicest blurb. And then because I had this incredibly generous, nice blurb from somebody that was very well respected, I then went and sent that around. I remember I sent it to Dr. Drew, who I am now friends with, but I barely knew at the time. And he said, "Oh, my God, after reading that blurb, I have to read this book."

And then I got a blurb from him and it sort of went from there. 

I Was Ungrateful

Now, what I didn't understand is I was so excited about my book, I thought, "Well, it's just a great honor for people to be able to to to blurb my book."

It's not an honor. I just sort of took it for granted that people would want to do it. And it's only when people started to come to me to blurb their books and I started to see in —the same sort of ugly behavior I hadn't recognized in myself. I remember this is who taught me: Lisa Smith, who's now a good friend of mine, asked me to blurb her book. Girl Walks Out of a Bar, I blurb it, she sends me the book, she sends me a gift certificate to get a massage, all of these things.

And I realized then this is a really big deal. So if you ask anybody to blurb your book, make sure you express your gratitude, you don't have to get them a massage. But that was really, really nice. I got was outdoors at the hotel back when we could all go outside. Oh, lovely. Thank you, Lisa. 

But my point is this. I get emails all the time from people who have clearly not read my books but are very excited about their book and they believe that I should be very honored to blurb them.

If you send a blurb request to a stranger, your chances of getting a yes are not great but there are ways you can go about this that are super, super effective and super, super ineffective. 

Below this post you can read examples of ineffective and effective blurb requests I've received.

To Increase Your Chances...

Make sure you've read their books and make sure you are being very, very clear about why they are the perfect person to blurb your book and how much it would mean to you to have a blurb from them.

This is also something that happens increasingly...back 10 years ago, I heard about this and I was like, Oh, people do that?" You could say to somebody who's extremely busy, "Hey, I know you're really, really busy. You don't have to read the whole thing. And in fact, if you'd like, I could write something, run it by you. And if you approve it, then we can use it as a blurb." Some people may be incredibly violated and offended by that. I know that I have both done that and had people do that to me and I am completely fine with that.

With some of the books that we've done, we've gotten celebrities—we got Magic Johnson to blurb a book. He didn't even have time to sit down and write it. So you could interview somebody and get the blurb over the phone.

But I also think let's say you have a book coming out in a year and you want to get big names to blurb your book?

Strategically Befriend Micro-Influencers

Now, I'm not talking about Glennon Doyle, I'm not talking about Tim Ferriss. I'm talking about like the tier down from the tier down, from the tier down...like me kind of level. If you want somebody who is just say they're not famous, but they are New York Times best-selling authors, they are Ted speakers, whatever it is, start stalking them in a very gentle, kind, loving way online. Start following them, start subscribing to their newsletters, start reviewing their podcasts, start joining their paid communities, whatever you can do, and start responding.

You'd be shocked how much you can be noticed. I have people that I have helped tremendously because they just started popping up in all the places. And I have had people who have helped me tremendously because I started popping up on their places and commenting and all of these things.

So let's say this is like an influencer that you've developed a relationship with over the years. When you have a book coming out, you can just tell them. You can say, I would love to send you a copy of this if it resonates with you. I would love it if you could write a blurb but no worries. I know how busy you are, blah, blah, all the things.

But let's say you're like, OK, fine, I don't have the time to do that. I don't know any New York Times best-selling authors or TED speakers or influencers or whatever it is.

Your next best bet is somebody who is an expert in your field and maybe that's a professor you had from college. Maybe, you know, we did a book on franchises. And so the franchising experts that we got blurbs from are not, you know, boldface names that anyone else is going to know. But in the franchising world, everybody knows them.

You Only Need One—or None

So so it's basically you just want this is what we do with Launch Pad. We only require our clients to have one blurb because we put that on the back cover. Anything else is extra credit.

Darren Prince, the client who had Magic Johnson blurbing his book, he literally got so many blurbs that we filled the entire back cover and then 12 more pages in the book. But it's not necessary. I think one of the reasons people think blurbs are so important is that it's kind of fun to get a blurb. You know, it's kind of like, hey, let's talk about how great I am. So if that's something that is fun for you, absolutely. 

Go and gather them. But please, please don't let it stress you out. It is not required. And let's say you've got some influencer who's who you can call in one favor with someone, don't blow it on the blurb.

Wait until your book is out. Ask them to post about it, send out a newsletter about it, whatever it is. So that is how you get blurbs for your book. If you liked this video, if you're watching it on video, please give it a thumbs up hit subscribe. Do you go watch the other videos about building your brand with a book? And if you are listening to this on the podcast to God, I love you, please don't forget that you can D.M. Me your questions for me to answer.

Want me to answer your question? DM me on Instagram and I will see you soon. 

Talk to you next time.

INEFFECTIVE/EFFECTIVE BLURB REQUESTS

Here’s an example of an ineffective request I just received:

Hello Anna . . .

I am a writer and a long-term member of the recovery community. My publisher recently released TK BOOK NAME, the sequel to my first book, TK BOOK NAME. All three books share addiction themes.  

Here’s what’s come in so far:

BLURB EXAMPLES FROM PEOPLE I DON’T KNOW

All I ask is a three-page read; if I don’t have your attention by then, pass (I take no hostages).  

A brief description is here: TK WEBSITE. The book is 220 pages long, published by TK PUBLISHER. I would be happy to send copies.

Thanks  

Here’s why I deleted the email:

-It’s clear he sent a blanket email to people he thought could help him having no idea what I write [think about asking a stranger to read your material without bothering to read any of theirs first!!]

-The “three-page read” ask still puts a busy person [and who isn’t these days?] in a bind, leaving me to write him back and basically say his book didn’t grab me at all or to say yes. 

-There’s no acknowledgment of the fact that this is a hefty request; the tone suggests instead that I would be so excited by the first 3 pages that I would be getting a lot out of doing it.

In short, asking someone to blurb your book is A HUGE favor. If you don’t have a personal connection with the person, I highly recommend making it clear WHY you’re asking that particular person and that you understand it’s a major thing to ask from a stranger.

Now here’s an example of the sort of blurb request that would get a “hell yes” from anyone (it’s from someone I knew and had had on my podcast):

 Anna: 

You are a gem! The interview sounds FANTASTIC (it was a delight talking to you) and I have shared it a few places on social media already and will continue to share in various outlets over the next few days. I also have it up on my resources website. And thanks for electing to use the sassy picture!

I am so stoked about your work and everything that you are doing. If you need me or see any further possibilities for collaboration, just give me a shout out. I probably won't be out to LA again until next year but lots can be done remotely as you know.

Also, might you have a willingness to take a peek at my upcoming book on Expressive Arts Therapy & trauma recovery (Process Not Perfection) as I prepare to gather "endorsement blurbs" for the cover? It would mean a lot to me to have as many strong female recovery leaders as possible on the pages. Let me know, and no pressure at all if this is something you're not willing or able to do.

Much love, Jamie 

 

RELATED EPISODES:

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How James Altucher Launches a Book

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Rachel Hollis Launches a Book

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Tim Ferriss Launches a Book 

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

QUOTE OF THE POD:

"You think everybody is really excited about your book. You think, 'You know what I'd really like? Let's get Elizabeth Gilbert and Glennon Doyle and Brene Brown to blurb my book.' The problem is millions of people all over the world are thinking the same thing."

How Do I Use My Book to Get on Podcasts?

TO SEE ME ANSWER THIS QUESTION ON VIDEO, CLICK HERE

TABLE OF CONTENTS:

Start Doing Your Research
Only Pitch Yourself to Shows You Love
Think About the Show And Not Yourself
Know That The Host (Probably) Won't Read Your Book
Pitch at the Right Time


 How Do I Use My Book to Get on Podcasts?

The best way to get on podcasts is the most obvious one and it's the most overlooked, which is listen to the podcast you want to be on.

Start Doing Your Research

Start by making a list of the podcasts you want to be on and be realistic: you are not going to get on Joe Rogan. You're probably not going to get on Tim Ferriss. 

So go to the podcast app, go to the Apple store on your phone or your computer or wherever you are and start doing a search for the podcasts in your topic. And you are looking for podcasts that have at least a hundred episodes and at least 50 reviews. There are sites like Chartable where you can find out the actual number of downloads but there are billions of podcasts out there and this is the easiest way to do it. So as long as you can see they post every week, there are at least 100 hundred episodes that are at least 50 reviews, this is a podcast that is well worth your time going on.

So make a note of that podcast, then look under where it says "listeners also listen to or subscribe to" and start noting those again. Just constantly be revising and editing based on the podcasts—many start out strong and then they haven't updated in a couple of months or only post every month.

I would just strongly recommend sticking with weekly podcasts for now, then go and listen to them; maybe batch this and do 10 at a time. If it's a podcast you can't stand, forget it. It doesn't matter. 

Some hosts and producers are very easy to reach—the information is very accessible—and sometimes they're not. There's a website called Hunter IO  that lists really hard to find email addresses. They may not be accurate, they may not be current, but they are sometimes so that is that is who you pitch to.

Only Pitch Yourself to Shows You Love

When you love a show, what do you do? You review the show and keep listening to it. When you reach out to the host or the booker or whoever it is and tell them you love the show, show them a screengrab of the review.

I have been pitched hundreds of podcast guests over the years and I've accepted maybe four of those and the other ninety I rejected, usually because it was so obvious they had never listened to the show and it was just a blanket pitch.

And the ones that I did put on the show who were amazing guests, they had listened to the show or their publicists had listened to the show.

Think About the Show And Not Yourself

When you're listening to shows, make a couple of notes about episodes you like and then when pitching say, "I absolutely loved this episode and that episode. And also, I reviewed your podcast. Actually, here's a screen grab of my review and here's what I think I could tell your listeners."

Remember this:  No one cares about your book. No one cares about my book. They care about what your book can do for them.

So the podcast host does not care about promoting your book. He or she cares about you sharing something with their audience that will be helpful that they haven't heard before and then you sharing the episode.

So share with this podcast host how excited you would be to share your episode and talk about whatever your abilities to share are; if you don't have a big social media following but it's a podcast you really want to get on, say, "I'm so excited to do this. I would love to drive Facebook ad traffic to the episode"or whatever it is.

Just make it so hard for the person to say no.

The Host (Probably) Won't Read Your Book

You should still send it to them. There are some podcast hosts who are extremely assiduous about reading guest's books—James Altucher talks about how he reads every guest's book over and over and over again. But I just heard Lewis Howse talk about how he has an assistant who reads the books, who flags the parts that are relevant to him and these are the biggest authors in the world.

As an author, it can be very disheartening when you're being interviewed by somebody who it is very clear has not read your book. But as a podcast host, I've had both: I've had people I've absolutely read their books and I've had people where I haven't had time to read their books and I've interviewed them.

The important thing is it's somebody that has taken the time to prepare—has gotten information about you and your book—and it can be just as fruitful to have that conversation. So please don't be offended by the fact that the podcast host is probably not going to read your book.

Pitch at the Right Time

Make sure you pitch way ahead of your book release. Some podcasts batch episodes so you can't say, "My book is coming out in May. So in April, I'm going to start reaching out to these podcast hosts."

Some hosts don't want you pitching or promoting anything on their show. Marc Maron famously says he doesn't want people promoting things. But some are very open to it. You can absolutely request and say, "I have a book coming out April 1st. I would love for my episode to be released that week."

I really tried to do that with my recent book and I had all these podcasts that were scheduled to come out that week. And then people screw up and they forget when your book is coming out.

In the book world, people are very into preorders. But as a consumer, I am an immediate gratification baby and am so much less likely to buy something if I see it's not coming for another six months; I am so much less likely to hit Buy now.

So I recommend booking these podcasts for once your book is available. And while there is a great advantage to having them all be released at once, there is also a great advantage to keeping your sales going by having podcasts come out over a certain period of time.

So your homework is to start listening to the podcasts. Start researching which would be best for you, start being realistic and start stalking in a very gentle, loving and affectionate way, the hosts and showing them that you're out there.

 

RELATED EPISODES:

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How James Altucher Launches a Book

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Rachel Hollis Launches a Book

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Tim Ferriss Launches a Book 

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

QUOTE OF THE POD:

"No one cares about your book. They care about what that book can do for them."

How Do I Get Clients From My Book?

TO SEE ME ANSWER THIS QUESTION ON VIDEO, CLICK HERE

TABLE OF CONTENTS:

Work Backward
Show People How to Do Something So They Hire You to Do It 
Your Ideal Client Knows Other Ideal Clients
This Works No Matter Your Business
Whatever You Do, Don't Create a Course


Work Backward

Be very strategic—say, "Okay, I have a business where I help people do whatever it is you do and I need a book where I can educate my future client or customer."

Let's say you help people with branding: your book can be bout why branding is so important.

Picture your ideal client when writing. For my most recent book, I pictured a couple I know who I had talked to about hiring me. So as I was writing Make Your Mess Your Memoir, I thought about this couple every page. I would think, "Would he like that? What she would she be shocked by that?"

And the reason that I did that isn't that I was thinking small but that I was thinking big. I was thinking about the Kevin Kelly idea of a thousand true fans and how you do not need the masses. You need a niche. I used to think books should be for everybody. But they should be for your ideal client. 

The couple I pictured when writing the book haven't read it. They certainly haven't hired me. But I've brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from people that are just like them. It's sort of like on Facebook, the lookalike audience. Your ideal client is an avatar. And there are if there's one, there are many.

Show People How to Do Something So They Hire You to Do It 

I wrote a book about how to make your mess into your memoir because I wanted to help show people how to do that. But I also knew by showing people that I was the expert in how to do that, they would then want to hire me.

But you can't write the book, publish it and then say, OK, cool, who's going to call me and ask if they can hire me?

I was able to get on Good Morning America to promote the book. Now, you might think, "Wow, that must mean she sold a lot of books." I probably sold a handful from Good Morning America. But the handful that bought it then hired me. So it's not about how many books you sell. It's about who is buying it and who is reading it and who is hiring you as a result.

There's a business coach named Alan Weiss who wrote Million Dollar Consulting. I went to one of his seminars in New York, where he put up at the front of the conference table a large notepad and then he went around the room and asked each person, "How did you hear about me?" 

One person said, "I read your book." Another person said, "I saw your YouTube video." Another person said, "I heard you on this radio show." But 99 percent of people were there because we had read his book. And I actually took a picture of this!

Your Ideal Client Knows Other Ideal Clients

Here's something else I learned from Alan Weiss. 

He says when you write a book, sit down and think about who your ideal client is, then think about everyone you know, and then you think, "Could John Smith know my ideal client?"

Basically, you go through what old people call a Rolodex but what current people say is your address book on your phone. And you think about who you know who might know people. Because whatever it is you do for a living—if you coach people about how to be healthy with money or you coach mothers about how to be healthy with their children or whatever it is—you know people who know people who will pay you money to do that.

So what Alan recommends and I always recommend to my clients is sign two copies of your book and send them to a prospective client because a prospective client knows another prospective client he could give the second copy to and nobody throws away a signed book. 

So now you've got two prospective clients.

This Works No Matter Your Business

At Launch Pad, we have published books by a sports agent, by a recovery coach, by somebody who owns a non-profit, by somebody who sells to the government. It works for every business I've seen.

I first learned this from my client, Darren Prince, the sports agent.

Aiming High was his book about his addiction and recovery. And right after it was released, he was getting offered six-figure spokesperson deals and getting paid ten thousand dollars a gig to go speak around the world.

But what he told me is that it brought in so much more business to his sports agency because when he sat down with people for meetings, they had read his book about addiction or they knew he had done it. And then it was less a business meeting and more two friends hanging out. And when you're two friends hanging out, the negotiations are going to go a lot better than when you're people just doing business.

I won't sign clients that I don't think can earn back at least ten times what they're paying me. It's silly to pay a lot of money to a company to write and publish your book when you don't have a plan to earn it back.

A client said to me, "I'm an angel investor and I want to write a book" and I said, "OK, great, let's figure out what your business is." And so we came up with this idea for a company where she's going to help women build their businesses. It will have two tiers—one for the ones just starting out who need to know, like what's an LLC, what's an S-corp, what's a DBA, how do I incorporate? And then the other tier, which is how do I get how do I write a business plan? How do I get investors?

Whatever You Do, Don't Create a Course

A lot of people will write a book and they'll say, "I'm going to create courses and use the book to sell them."

I find that the course building market is supersaturated and it's really hard to get people not only to buy your courses, but also to take them. How many courses have you bought that are just sitting there?

Creating courses isn't the author's path to gold but building a business around your expertise, writing a book that supports that business and then getting that book into the hands of the people who will pay you to do that is. 

 

RELATED EPISODES:

How Do I Get People to Buy My Book? 

Katie DePaola on Using Your Book to Build a Brand

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

QUOTE OF THE POD:
"I won't sign clients that I don't think can earn back at least ten times what they're paying me. It's silly to pay a lot of money to a company to write and publish your book when you don't have a plan to earn it back."

Gene Moran on How His Book Transformed His Business

Gene Moran on How His Book Transformed His Business

Gene Moran has helped myriad clients navigate the murky waters of federal sales. As the Founder and President of Capitol Integration and an active duty Navy Captain, Gene has established himself as an expert who consistently brings agility, creativity and results to companies of all sizes: small startup firms, prime and sub-prime contractors, and large multi-billion dollar public enterprises. He is a proven Navy Financial Manager, designated Joint Specialty Officer and was just named one of top lobbyists of 2020 by the National Institute for Lobbying & Ethics,

But to me, he's much more than that; he's a client who I'm thrilled to call a friend. We published his #1 Amazon bestselling book, Pitching the Big Top: How to Master the 3-Ring Circus of Federal Sales, last year and are publishing his second book next year. Why is he doing two books, you ask? Well, you won't have to ask once you listen to this episode.  

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David:                  00:00                Oh, well, Gene, thank you so much for doing this.

Gene:                           00:04                It's my pleasure, glad to be here.

Anna David:                  00:06                I don't pick favorites, but you're my favorite client. Any client who's listening. You're a favorite too, but we're just not talking right now.

Gene:                           00:17                Only Anna could get away with that.

Anna David:                  00:20                What's special about us chatting today is that you got, literally an award today already from the National Institute for Lobbying and Ethics. Can we talk about that?

Gene:                           00:33                We can. It's just amazing timing. It was a peer recognition award you know, by lobbyists of lobbyists. I refer to myself as a government relations advisor, but it's always nice to be acknowledged by peers for the work that I get to do with clients that are just great to work with. Thanks for mentioning it.

Anna David:                  00:57                Well, and this, I have a self-serving question that probably isn't relevant, do you think your book had anything to do with that award? Probably not, huh?

Gene:                           01:07                Actually, actually, yes, because a part of the criteria I learned was how have I helped innovate within the field? And one way that they viewed my innovative effort was that I wrote a book that made the process of Washington more approachable for clients, companies who aren't living in the Washington area. So many of my clients are from all over the country and different parts of the globe and they don't have that regular access and understanding of the process. And so, this book was a way to make it more approachable and that was our goal at the beginning. And it had a secondary effect for us.

Anna David:                  01:56                Yeah. Just more frosting coming all the time. So, let's talk about your decision to write a book. I am pretty sure it came from being in the Alan Weiss community. Is that right?

Gene:                           02:10                He certainly is somebody who has had a major influence on how I have organized my business and thought about my business. And after reading his material, participating in his events, it became clear to me that I was not fully appreciating the degree of expertise that I could bring to the field. And it didn't take me long to accept that, yeah, I have enough material that's original that I can package in a different way. And I got a little professional help to do that.

Anna David:                  02:50                Well. Yeah. And I think everybody should know that if you have at least a decade in your field, you have a lot to teach people, probably even if you have less time. Gene and I are lucky enough to have a lot more time than that in our respective fields. But I, you know, and I remember at the event that we met at, but didn't meet at, which is to say we were both there, but didn't connect until afterwards really. I remember it began with Alan taking out a whiteboard and saying, going around the room and saying, how did you hear of me originally? And 99% of the people said it was from his books. Do you remember that?

Gene:                           03:30                Absolutely. That was an eye opener probably 25 people in attendance at a workshop about how to work on your business. And that was a clear message from a very, very diverse audience, that books tell a story.

Anna David:                  03:49                And we should say 25 hands out of probably 35. It wasn't like this was some huge workshop. It was a, I don't know, I'm terrible with numbers, Gene. I know you're really good with numbers.

Gene:                           04:00                No, no, no, no. You're right. I can stick with the 99% because that's where it was. This, this was a focused group, but an extremely diverse group meeting in New York City. And there was no doubt everyone had come to him because of a book or a book referral.

Anna David:                  04:16                And interestingly, I found out about his book by listening to a podcast, I was listening to a business podcast. I listened to all the time, I was on a hike and I just said, who is this man? He's sharing truths in a way that I've never heard someone talk before he really got my attention with Napoleon Hill was full of it. He was the worst, you know, when every other entrepreneur always talks about Napoleon Hill, anyway point is, I remember you saying when we first talked, you wrote it so that I think the expression you used, so that you could be in the public square. Was it something like that?

Gene:                           04:52                Correct. And you know, that's a concept that I think people in any business need to just embrace. I was a little slow to embrace it. The fact is if you are in business, people are evaluating you long before you meet them. Or even if you've been referred to them, they've checked you out pretty well before you have your first conversation, you may be 30% through a sales qualification process before you had that first conversation. And so, one's presence in the public square, what do you look like all the time? What's your body of work? Do you have books? Are you on social media? Do you write articles? That sort of stuff matters and it adds up to how people evaluate one's professionalism, capabilities, body of work in today's society.

Anna David:                  05:50                Yeah. And I think one of the misperceptions about books is that you have to sell a million copies for that to be true, and it is not true. So not true, you know I know you, well, first of all, let's go back to this first book. You got professional help from someone who already worked with you in terms of the writing process, what was the writing process like? Did you follow a structure? How did you do it?

Gene:                           06:14                Well, I wouldn't encourage everyone to follow my model. I sort of just went at it from an outline that I had been using to brief clients with. And I had a very bright intern working with me who was between college at Georgetown and starting law school at Boston College. And she was a gifted writer and I would give her bursts of my product and she would try to clean it up for me. And we went back and forth doing this. My wife and I were actually, on our boat in The Bahamas while I was doing some of this. And in a matter of a few months, we got what I thought was a pretty good manuscript. And then I connected with another person at Alan Weiss's community Dan Janell, who is a gifted editor in his own right. And former newspaper person. And he looked at it and said, yeah, you might need a little developmental work here. And he helped me sort of formulate it a little differently, put a creative title to it that we continued to improve. But then I got to a point where I was like, okay, now, we think we have a product, but how do I get it to market? And that was where the magic of Anna David came in.

Anna David:                  07:34                That's where I came in. What were you going to do before you met me? Were you going to find a cover designer and do this uploading yourself? What were you, what was your plan?

Gene:                           07:44                So, yeah, like many people who try to do their own marketing. I thought that, yeah, this Kindle Publishing through Amazon that doesn't look too difficult. I knew people that had done it. Some people make it look very easy, and I'm sure in some ways it is people described it. You can go to Fiverr and get someone to do your cover and get an ISBN. And suddenly I came to recognize that, wow, this is a lot of cobbling together, and it's going to take more time and effort than I really want to put into this. I don't get that cathartic experience from the whole writing, and putting a book together. Some people do, but I'd rather focus on my work and hobbies and have the book just come to life. So, when you and I were fortunate enough to run into one another after the New York event, that was where I recognized, Hey, I just found somebody who can take this across the finish line for me. And that's pretty much what happened.

Anna David:                  08:49                Yeah. I will say, technically, you could say it is easy to do the Kindle Publishing because you could, you can create a cover on Amazon. You can create a layout, but the difference between doing it right. And doing it, you know, doing it and doing it well is mammoth. And I know because I had to learn first-hand. So, yes, so we published this book, it became number one in its categories. We were all very happy. And then what happened next? How did you market it? How did you use it to attract clients all of that?

Gene:                           09:30                Well, I wish I could fully describe the magic nature of what unfolded, but it seemed that my existing organic network definitely latched onto the idea that I had a book. You know, the congratulations start to flow the just the noise level and the like, I guess the social media impressions rise considerably. And suddenly my network, I think, was viewing me in a different way. Oh, wow. Look at this. I didn't know he did that. Or I didn't know he had it in him. And referrals start to come in at a different pace and of a different quality pretty much immediately, I would say within the first quarter, I knew, wow, this, this was really a smart move. And I hadn't really thought it through like that. Prior to that happening, you know, embarking on a book, seemed like a smart idea, if nothing else, it was another piece of professional credentialing, but the activity and the sort of the flywheel effect definitely kicked in fairly quickly for me.

Anna David:                  10:49                Did you have to do anything? Did you mail out copies or did it just happen organically?

Gene:                           10:55                I had not done a big mailing, others I understand do that fairly regularly. My, the nature of my work is that I don't have a big client turnover and I don't look to attract a huge number of clients in any given year. I just, I have sort of steady growth of a small number of clients. So, my whole client acquisition mindset may be a little different than others. So, I have not pushed that too, too much. Somebody asks, you know, I'm happy to sign them and give them away. I've made them available for free on some occasions. When I speak at events or, you know, pre COVID certainly make reference to it. And you can see that, you know, people go to the website and download it.

Anna David:                  11:55                And so, I'm really glad you mentioned this higher quality of client. It attracts because I think any entrepreneur spends a lot of time, maybe you found a way to avoid this, speaking to people who are not the right client or agreeing to work with somebody who's not the right client. And a book is an excellent weeding out process because you get to show kind of the quality of your work. Do you know what I'm saying?

Gene:                           12:23                Absolutely. you know my business is about helping companies connect to the Washington process. The very large companies, excuse me, have a full-time Washington presence, smaller companies, medium sized companies don't necessarily have that. And some just don't have the bandwidth to support that sort of support. So, I can be that bridge to them to help them in the DC space. That doesn't mean that everybody is ready to work the DC environment. And so, there are some companies that are, you know, you watch Shark Tank, you see, you know, Hey, you're not quite ready for us, so we're not quite ready for you, that exists I think in many businesses, it does exist in my business. So, I am always looking for companies who are ready to make that step increase in activity and sales to the government help their, you know, improve their own government positioning. And that requires a company of a certain sustainability and cash flow and to cut through its quality they need to be ready to go work with me.

Anna David:                  13:38                Yeah. I think also a thing for me was, well, what you start to notice, ironically, is the people who are trying to, and this is kind of off topic, haggle the price are often the people who are going to be the most difficult. And then the people with this abundant mentality who are just like, okay, great. Let's just do this are the ones who end up being a joy to work with. And I will say, I remember when I told you the price, you just go, I'm still standing. Like you didn't, you know, you weren't like what? But so, okay. And so then let's talk about, then you decided, Hey, this was so great. I want to work from the beginning with Launch Pad. Was that partially you know, I'm imagining it took a lot of your time to write that book on your own. Would you be able to estimate how many hours it took you?

Gene:                           14:37                I really have never tried to put a number to it. Let's just say I made the go decision in April of 2019. I remember this well, I was at an Alan Weiss event and I came of it and saying, what am I waiting for? And within months, you and I were talking, so we published in October. So that was six months. So back up some of these developmental back and forth efforts you know, to get to a manuscript, it was probably four months of commitment. You know, I'm still, I do still work and you know, that's the full-time job. So it was, you know, months of effort, some people pour years into a book, I've come to recognize that there are faster ways to do it and, and less labor intensive ways to do it.

Anna David:                  15:31                Well, you did. That's pretty fast, what you're describing. When somebody says they're working on a book for years, I go, Oh, God, not because they've wasted the time, but because the book is probably in disastrous shape, because it just suggests that they've been writing without a structure and just kind of changing and all those things that not just take a long time, but really make the process fixing more difficult. Do you know what I mean?

Gene:                           15:59                So for anybody out there who questions, their ability to write, I'm a great example of somebody who is not a naturally gifted writer. In fact, I recall Dan Janell coming back to me saying, we've got to get rid of this passive voice. And I didn't even know what he was talking about. Dan, how do I identify that? And he rattles off these words that are, they just glare at him. He can't even stand that. They jump off the page out at him as passive voice. Now I've finally, and coming to recognize what that really means and why it's so boring to read that way. We do tend to speak that way often. And that was part of my problem. But you know, having some professional eyes help work through that sort of thing you know, makes it much more readable or enjoyable for the reader to actually read the book. So some of those people I'm going to get back to your topic here of self publishing.

                                    17:04                I've observed many, many colleagues who have been counseled to go with a professional publisher, go with a commercial publisher, not professional commercial publisher. And they wait forever. They wait 18 months using an agent or multiple agents, and they go to 50 publishing houses to try to get published in there. They're just waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. We went from start to published to number one in six months, such that it was having an effect on my business within months after that publication date. And I've shared this story with many people who are clinging to this idea that you have to have an expensive literary agent that's working the publishing houses for you. If your goal is to have a book that will help your business, my experience with this book is that that's a lot of wasted time that you don't have to waste.

Anna David:                  18:04                I know. And you have generously sent me probably 10 people who I've talked to, who have not been convinced of that. And it's, I think it's this. And I get it. It's like that dream that they know the statistics are really bad for selling a book, but they think they're going to be the exception. And they just, you know, and they say things because I talk to these people all the time. Whenever I talk to someone who says that, I'll circle back once I've, you know, sort of gotten the agent and publisher, I know they're never publishing a book. I know it. And they'll say things like I want to be sent on tour. This was pre COVID. I don't know, personally any writers who the publisher sent on tour. I know a lot who arranged their own tours and they say, I want to get my book in bookstores. And that, you know, getting published traditionally doesn't mean that I find it easier to get my book in bookstores now. I got this new one in Barnes and noble by walking in and chatting with someone who worked there. I wasn't even trying.

Gene:                           19:06                Well, that's the magic of Anna David right there. You bring this infectious enthusiasm to your work that people can't ignore. And so they want to be a part of that.

Anna David:                  19:18                You see how to become one of my favorite clients. You just have to say things like that. Now, you're too classy a guy to talk numbers, but how much money would you say this book has made you? I mean, I guess percentage wise in terms of new clients and all of that, I mean, I'm imagining the actual book sales. We all tend to make a couple hundred bucks, like not a lot, but what about in terms of new clients and business?

Gene:                           19:45                Yeah, it's not the book sales. It's the access to clients and landing business from by leveraging the book. We are now 13 months from our publication date. It's November, 2020. And that number is between 35 and 40% higher business revenue, 35 to 40% higher than pre-book. How much of that is the book? Some significant piece of it has something to do with the book. I can't tell you the exact makeup.

Anna David:                  20:23                I mean, and that's the thing about books. It's also the thing about podcasts. People say, how much does it show off your business? And it's impossible to quantify because it's not a number that adds up. You just know it adds to your legitimacy. I will point out to anybody who's doing mad calculations. He mentioned having a boat in The Bahamas, so we know he was already doing pretty well. So 35% is probably a significant number. That's all I'm saying.

Gene:                           20:51                So I get asked regularly, Hey, is it worth the price that you pay to do these things, have an editor, have somebody do the publishing for you? To me it was an absolute, no brainer. And, you know, we can talk about our follow on projects if you'd like, and, you know, those decisions were quite easy for me to make as a result.

Anna David:                  21:16                Yeah. I mean, so then we signed up you know, to do a monthly retainer with you where, you know, and we're figuring out what it is, but we got blog posts and speakers you know, packets and these things together, and we're in regular communication. So it becomes, I think if you're smart, a relationship, and then of course, we're releasing your next book in 2020, and we're helping you write it, 2021. I told you I'm not going to work.

Gene:                           21:47                So the, I lost my train of thought there, sorry.

Anna David:                  21:54                That we decided to keep working together.

Gene:                           21:57                Yes. So we're here's something that you know, maybe listeners would gravitate to. I mentioned your infectious enthusiasm. You are also in a very different bubble, so to speak, then I am in, and I think this election showed us we are all sort of in bubbles. We work in different areas. We self-select our news in different ways. We, we are coming at things from a different perspective. As we speak today, I live in Florida, but my work effort is focused on Washington DC. My being outside of the DC area, 90% of the year helps me have perspective. You being in Los Angeles have a completely different perspective on things about how people consume information about how I'm perceived in a marketplace. And so, yes, we have a retainer relationship that has some flexibility to it because there's different things that come up about what I might need help with, or want perspective on. Sometimes it's about how to write something in short order, a blog post, how to reposition for speaking opportunities. These things don't just naturally happen where people show up on programs of associations to be a speaker, or be a panelist. There's somebody in the background helping make those things happen. Anna is on my team to help make those things happen. And you know, it takes that load off of me and it's a very, very minor price to pay to have that sort of higher caliber support.

Anna David:                  23:40                Cool. Love it. Love it. Yeah. I mean, obviously I love it. I do think that's another misperception is that people think we'll have a book, so speakers or, you know, speakers, agencies and bookers are going to come knocking down my door. Nope, Nope. You got to make it happen.

Gene:                           23:59                I happen to know personally and I'm sure many people listening do too. I know personally many of the people that are political pundits on the major cable channels they are not there by accident. They're there because they want to be there many are there because they're paid to be there and they have aggressively positioned themselves to be there. It's the same in speaking opportunities throughout the country, whether it's in an industry association sort of event, or if you're invited into maybe a prospect or another business setting, those things it's rarely just by power of your own personal brand. There has to be some effort on one's part to do that. I sort of left off the second part of our follow on work about the second book that you alluded to seeing the success of the pitching the big top, how to master the three ring circus of federal sales. That convinced me that that's not my only message that I can share and that I would like to tell.

                                    25:11                And I would like more people to know about, but you know, me, I'm a fairly reserved person. These things don't just you know, come out when somebody interacts with me. But I recognized that my prior military experience, my corporate experience, my now entrepreneurial experience working in Washington, there's a through line there that many people might be able to relate to about transitions in life and opening up to different opportunities. And so I knew that had book potential, but I didn't want to sit down at the computer and type it out. So you have another way to do that. And you know, that appeals to me and I'm excited to do it. And I know goodness will come from it. I don't know exactly what that will look like, but you have to be willing to move in that direction toward these big goals and amazingly good things come.

Anna David:                  26:12                Yes. And I don't want this to sound like one long commercial for Launch Pad. I want it, I want more people to understand what a book can do for your business and to see how possible it is, and to see that, you know, frankly you know, well, I got a good college education. It's my fault. I squandered it a little bit, but this is sort of the new college degree. Do you want to go get another degree or do you want to be considered an expert with a book and no matter how you do that, this will help you. No matter what business you're in. That's what I think. So, Gene, this has been a delight, unsurprisingly, is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up?

Gene:                           27:01                I wasn't expecting that one for the close Anna, I have to say, I really enjoy working with you. I use the word enthusiasm a lot. You bring a lot of energy that I get energy from. I love working with people that are like this. I love working with clients that bring that kind of energy. It makes the work that much more pleasant. This has been great experience for me. I certainly not thought twice about embarking on a book and as we've discussed moving onto more. So I look forward to a long relationship.

Anna David:                  27:37                Well, thank you. Thank you. And thank you. Anybody who is listening, I hope you are super motivated from this story. And I will see you next week slash talk to you next week. Thanks. Bye. 

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

How Do I Get People to Buy My Book?

TABLE OF CONTENTS:

Just Ask
Be Strategic
Reach Out—and Out Again—to Everyone You Know
Don’t Expect Strangers to Care


Just Ask

If you're thinking...”Really? She's telling me just to ask people to buy my book?” Yeah, I am. And it's a mistake I made so many times: just kind of expecting the world to care that I had a book. 

Here's the thing. No one cares. No one cares about my book. No one cares about your book. What they care about is what that book can do for them. So you’ve got to approach it like that—when you're writing your book, you approach it in your book description, you approach it in how you talk about the book on social media, in newsletters to your friends, everywhere.

Be Strategic

The number one strategy is to have a sales page for your book. (See the link section below for an example of one I did for my most recent book.)  Most people will create a basic web page that just shows the book cover and description. And really that’s just serving the author. You need to serve the reader, show them why they should part with their hard-earned money for your book.

I also highly recommend making the book 99 cents when you first launch it and gathering an Advanced Reader Team, which is to say, a group of people who agree to read your book ahead of time and then write and then copy and paste a review a few days before the book is officially released on Amazon. The ideal scenario is you get a couple of hundred people to join the group; I realize that's a lot but just know that probably half the people who say yes will flake. Still, I recommend you set up a BookFunnel.com account for 20 bucks a year, upload your book there and send your ART members a link. If you can outsource this and have someone else run your Advanced Reader Team, that's ideal. But either you or someone else wiil send them a series of emails. Down below is a link to my PDF that breaks down exactly what you should say to them.

The reason you want to keep it 99 cents for your Advanced Reader Team is that you don’t want to say, “Hey, buy my book—it's 10 dollars—and do this review.” And even when it's 99 cents, know that you’re going to have to follow up with them. You might have to follow up a couple of times. I'll tell you, with people who flaked on mine, I followed up a couple of times and they all wrote back “Sorry, this thing happened, but now I'm going to do it.” And they did.

At Launch Pad and for all my books, we just keep the books at 99 cents and then we change it once the book is out. You can also leave it at 99 cents for a longer and then D.M. your Instagram followers, your Facebook friends, your LinkedIn connections.  People think, “Oh I'm just going to post about having this book and people will go buy it.”  Not really. How about you do a copy-paste—or again you outsource and you have someone else write something like, “Hey my book is out. It's 99 cents for a couple of days. I would mean so much to me if you went and got it.”

Reach Out—and Out Again—to Everyone You Know

I’ll be honest, when I'm sending out those "please buy my book" emails, I kind of go, “I'm not going to send it to him. I'm not going to send it to her. She's not going to be into this.” So you don't have to send it to everyone, but send it to almost everyone you know. It's amazing how people have to be asked to do something that we think is super, super obvious. 

If you have a newsletter list, absolutely send a newsletter about it. But why not send multiple newsletters about it? Don't worry about bombarding your list—although again, make it about them or about something newsy to do with your book.

You can send three emails but don’t just say, “Hey, I have a book out.” No. Maybe you're going to tell them, “Hey, it's a number one bestseller. Hey, I'm going to be on Good Morning America. Hey, I really think this passage is relevant for you.” And then when you post about it on social media, again think about what is useful for them. Take sections of the book, take anything that's scandalous or interesting or will catch someone's eye and just keep sharing those things and linking to the book. 

Put a link to the book in your signature for your emails, put it as a pinned tweet, put it at the top of your Facebook page, put it wherever you can and keep talking about it. You can create cards that have a link to it. You can carry around copies.

Don’t Expect Strangers to Care

The statistic is that somebody has to hear about your book seven times before they buy it. So one media appearance isn't going to do it. You constantly hawking your book is what's going to do it. And if you're thinking, “I'm sorry, I'm just not a self-promoter. This makes me uncomfortable,” look at it like this: First of all, writing is only half the job; if no one buys your book, you did a journal. So this is part of the job.

And if you feel like it's obnoxious, I kind of think of it as the opposite of obnoxious, because if you have information that can help people and you are not sharing it with them, you are doing them a disservice. You are here to leave the world with a message. And there's a lot of noise out there. There's a lot of competition out there. So in order for you to get it out there, you're going to have to hawk it more than you are comfortable hawking it.

Remember if you have any questions you would like me to answer, please DM me on Instagram @annabdavid.

LINKS

Advanced Reader Team download

My book sales page (scroll to the bottom to see) 

RELATED EPISODES:

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How James Altucher Launches a Book

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Rachel Hollis Launches a Book

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Tim Ferriss Launches a Book 

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

QUOTE OF THE POD:

"If you have information that can help people and you are not sharing it with them, you are doing them a disservice. You are here to leave the world with a message. And there's a lot of noise out there. There's a lot of competition out there. So in order for you to get it out there, you're going to have to hawk it more than you are comfortable hawking it."

Should I Give Up on Traditional Publishing?

TABLE OF CONTENTS:

The Caveat: I'm Biased Against Traditional Publishing
How Much Does It Matter to You?
You Can Publish Your Book Yourself 
The Rules with Novels Are Different
I Couldn't Make a Living Until I Could Answer the Question: What Do I Want This Book to do For Me?
You Have to Get Realistic
You Don't Need Them
If Your Goal is to Have a Writing Career...

Today I'm going to dispel some publishing myths and maybe discourage you a little bit, all in the name of showing you how you can launch a book that will build your brand and your business. But first we have to dispel myths. And so today I am answering a question that came to me from a listener, @michaelcringering is his Instagram handle.

Here's the question: “I started submitting to agents in March because I'm hoping to secure someone interested in my novel. I submitted to 153 agents in my genre but heard back from less than 25 percent. With that said and the pandemic raging, should I continue to wait or go ahead and self publish?”

The Caveat: I'm Biased Against Traditional Publishing

My bias comes from the fact that I come from traditional publishing.

HarperCollins published six of my books, Simon and Schuster published one. It was a New York Times bestseller and I am still massively opposed to traditional publishing because I was disillusioned every single time.

If you want more information about this, my God, go listen to old episodes, but I'm going to give you the definitive answer to what I think. I'm not great with numbers, but I'm going to say something. 153 agents is a lot.  A lot. A lot. A lot.

And we're recording this in November so March was a long time ago.

How Much Does It Matter to You?

I really think it's about weighing how much does it mean to you to have a traditional publisher's name on your spine so you can hang on and keep on following up?

But even just getting the agent, it's just the tiniest little step up the hill, roughly. 

This is the most depressing thing I will say but the rough statistic is that two out of every 10,000 book proposals sell. Even if you get the agent, then there is this submission process, which can also be endless. So I believe it comes down to goals.

You Can Publish Your Book Yourself 

You could put it on KDP. That's the back end of Amazon. They will give you an ISBN that will give you a barcode and you can design your cover and they'll do the layout. You can do that.

You can also use companies like Launch Pad—we're booked right now, so put this in your back pocket. There are other companies like ours where we will design the cover, do the layout and do a launch where it goes into bookstores and is a number one bestseller on Amazon and has all these reviews and all of those things.

You could also do it on your own, not just the KDP Amazon back end, but you can get layout software like Vellum for $250, and for the rest of your life, it will lay out books for you. (Scroll down for a link.)

Now you could figure this out. I know people who do. You could figure out keywords and categories. You could use Publishers Rocket software. (Scroll down for that link, too.) It tells you everything you need to know about keywords and categories and all of that stuff. You could write your own book description. You could write your own author bio. You can do all of these things. 

The Rules with Novels Are Different

First of all, with novels you finish the entire book before trying to get an agent or a publisher, as opposed to a non-fiction book where you would have to write a proposal—with very few exceptions. 

As a former novelist, let me say that you need to have a goal. I didn't have a goal. I just thought, "Oh, I'm going to write these novels and I'm going to be hugely successful, they'll probably make a reality show about me. These books will definitely be made into movies and be New York Times bestsellers and all of those things." I actually got close on those things. HarperCollins did want to develop a reality show about me. The movie rights have been optioned over and over again, but it didn't happen.

And it happens to .01 percent of people. I got paid 50,000 dollars for my first book. By the end of my traditional publishing book career, I was being paid 2000 dollars. I was not making enough money to live on. So maybe we're all great artists and we want to just put out our work because it's important and we want to help people. But we also need to pay our rents and our mortgages.

I Couldn't Make a Living Until I Could Answer the Question: What Do I Want This Book to do For Me?

We all have to ask: What is my goal? What do I define as success? Because if you are going to rely on a publisher or anybody else for success, it's probably not going to happen. I mean, it happens one in a million times. If you are going to say, "OK, from this book, I want to get clients, I want to get people to sign up for my coaching," whatever it is, then you can the book will be successful because you will design it to get you what you want.

For instance, I released a book in July, Make Your Mess Your Memoir. I got on Good Morning America. I sold I don't know the exact number, but let's say safely under five thousand books. 

However, that book brought in so much new business that my company is now booked for the next year—hundreds of thousands of dollars as a result of that book, none of it from book sales.

Now, I'm a very practical person. One time my mom took me shopping and she said, "I'll buy you anything you want as long as it's whimsical and it has no purpose." And I literally couldn't do it. 

You Have to Get Realistic

If you are going to do a novel, get really clear about what your goal is going to be, because chances are no one's going to hire you as a coach based on a novel and it's not going to bring in business. So get really, really clear about your goals and know this: Your publisher isn't going to help you. 

I told you I was negative about publishing. The average book that's published traditionally sells 300 copies. The publishers are putting their efforts into the books that were the authors were paid million-dollar advances because they want to earn their money back. So everything you do, you're going to have to do, whether it's traditionally published or self-published.

You Don't Need Them

You can get on media and in bookstores without traditional publishers. As I said, I was on Good Morning America for this book I published. I wasn't on that show for any of the books Harper published. I've talked about this in previous episodes, but Harper would tell me that bookstores didn't want my books. And I've been able to get Make Your Mess your Memoir in tons of bookstores just on my own. 

So my point is this. You don't need them unless publishing a book through Random House or Simon Schuster or Harper Collins is on your bucket list.

If Your Goal is to Have a Writing Career...

Have a career that's going to back up the writing. Or you can be independently wealthy and a true artist. I hope this wasn't too discouraging and I hope that Michael, you get signed and you are one of those authors that is given a million-dollar advance. But just in case, take my cynical, negative, yet experienced wisdom to heart.

By the way, if you want me to answer your question on this show, just message me on Instagram @annabdavid.

LINKS: [NOTE: THESE ARE AFFILIATE LINKS!]

Vellum

Publishers Rocket

RELATED EPISODES:

How Do I Get My Book in Bookstores?

How Do I Build Up My Profile Enough for a Publisher to Want Me?

Jeff Garlin on the Difference Between Selling to a Publisher and Selling to Readers

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

QUOTE OF THE POD:

"The average book that's published traditionally sells 300 copies. The publishers are putting their efforts into the books for the authors who were paid million-dollar advances because they want to earn their money back. So everything you do to promote your book, you're going to have to do, whether it's traditionally published or self-published."

Marleen Seegers on Selling the Foreign Rights to Your Book

Marleen Seegers on Selling the Foreign Rights to Your Book

Marleen Seegers is the co-founder of 2 Seas Agency, which sells the foreign rights of books by authors such as James Altucher. She's also the host of the Make Books Travel podcast. Her team pays regular visits to international book fairs such as those in Beijing, Turin, Guadalajara, Rio de Janeiro, Sharjah, New York, Leipzig and of course Frankfurt and London, combined with trips to major publishing cities including Paris, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich and Berlin.

Jealous yet? Well, COVID put a damper in that publishing schedule. Yet Marleen has still managed to thrive—and educate the rest us about how the whole foreign rights think works, which countries like which books and whether or not it really means doing book readings on Greek islands.  Listen to the episode to find out more. 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David:                  00:00                Wow. So, thank you so much for doing this; as I was just telling you, foreign rights just sounds so glamorous. It conjures up these images of like a Greek Island and doing a book reading on a beach and it's nothing like that. Is it?

Marleen:                      00:15                Well, especially not now when people are just not traveling anywhere. So, I've just been working from my home office since the beginning of the pandemic, but and so are most international publishers, but yeah, I mean, sometimes authors get invited for a reading in a very exotic setting, but most of the time it's us going to international book fairs, and just sitting in these big trade shows, just pitching and in a very busy room and running around and yeah, just, you know, hard business.

Anna David:                  00:51                So, but let us live in our fantasy. How can you tell which books are best for foreign markets? Is it just the quality? Is at the advance the writer was paid? How do you decide?

Marleen:                      01:03                I think it's, you can never really tell for sure whether a book is going to sell internationally or not. And that I think is the most interesting part of my job is that you just never know there's really good surprises. Sometimes there's also bad surprises, when I was really rooting for a book that I personally loved and I didn't manage to sell the rights. But there are a few elements that can help us evaluate an advance, whether a book is going to sell or not. And first of all, as you mentioned, it's the quality is very important. A book just has to be well-written. If I send a manuscript to a foreign publisher and it's not well written, then they will realize after a few pages and they stopped reading and move on to the next manuscript. So, cause what you have to know is that so many books get published around the world in so many languages, not just English.

                                    01:56                So acquiring international publishers get so many books on submission every day. So, it is our job as a foreign right seller to tell them, Hey, drop everything else. Look at this book right here, right now. And being able to tell them, you need to look at this book right here, right now, because it's the number one best seller in the Wall Street Journal. It has sold X number of copies. So, 50,000 copies in the first month of publication, it's been endorsed by X, Y, Z, very, you know, famous authors or other industry figures that are well-respected and well-known. So those elements, you know, are all sales arguments, if there's great reviews in the New York Times or in the Atlantic or whichever traditional publishing, how should I put it traditional newspapers or, you know, blogs, and reviews left on websites can also help, but it's very much still the traditional newspapers that really have a big impact for international publishers.

Anna David:                  03:12                That's super interesting. I wouldn't know that because you think of newspapers as having no pull anymore. Oh, you can get reviewed in New York Times and you can still just sell a hundred copies. You hear things like that. But it makes a difference.

Marleen:                      03:24                Yeah, of course it does. But it does make a difference, being able to mention a quote from the New York Times or Publishers Weekly or Kurkers the reviews. It helps pull them into the manuscripts rather than an Amazon reviewer that nobody has heard of. And, you know, which can be very nice for authors and very important too for sales on Amazon, but for international publishers, they like receiving, or they like connecting with media that they're more familiar with and names that they're more familiar with too.

Anna David:                  03:59                And so are there specific markets that you can say, Oh, you know, in Japan they love thrillers, in Italy they love romance. Are there rules like that?

Marleen:                      04:09                Yeah. I mean, there's trends that come and go, at the moment, anything like nature writing works really well internationally. I think it's what we're living through at the moment. It's kind of a back to nature, back to the basics. Let's just enjoy and go outside on a hike, and read about what birds we can come across and what they can teach us in our lives. And but there are also some country-specific interests. I would say for Japan, as you mentioned that, and in general, all of Southeast Asia, China, and South Korea, and Thailand, Vietnam, any business and marketing title, anything that comes from like the Silicon Valley entrepreneur, that is very much a genre that is much requested by publishers from those territories and that we tend to sell well into those territories.

                                    05:09                And then there's, I can also tell you like specific genres that don't work in specific markets. So, I'm from the Netherlands originally, and I know the Dutch are very down to earth, both feet on the ground, kind of people and any novel that I've tried to sell that had any kind of like magic realism or any kind of fantasies, it's a whole genre on its own, but yeah. Anything magical or just things that don't add up that are very farfetched that just doesn't work in the Netherlands. It just, yeah. It just, it just doesn't work.

Anna David:                  05:49                They're realists.

Marleen:                      05:49                Very, very much so. Yeah. And I'm giving these a very broad stroke. Of course, if there's a bestselling author that has a, a book that has a magic realism in it, which actually, I, I just sold a title from Italy into the Netherlands, which has magic realist, realism elements in it, but it's sold into 10 other countries and it was for six weeks on the Italian bestseller list. So, I had all these other arguments that they will also then have to help them sell the book into, you know, into the Netherlands, to their booksellers. So, any of those rules there's exceptions of course, but yeah, we can kind of know in advance sometimes like also Scandinavian countries. They're very good at writing more, writing thrillers, you know, Scandinavian suspense, like Jonas Beau and Steve Larson, I think who started it all. So those, any novels, any thrillers or suspense from, from Norway or from Sweden, they tend to travel better than a suspense or thriller from the Netherlands, for instance. So, but as a result, also the Scandinavians, they are, it's harder to sell suspense or thrillers from other countries into Scandinavia because they are so good at it themselves. So, it makes it easier just to publish domestic authors rather than invest in a translation, and publish a book by author. Who's not from their territory. So, you see what I mean?

Anna David:                  07:27                Now you were talking about how you can say to a publisher, a foreign publisher, Oh, this was [inaudible] in the New York Times, Jon Branson loved it, whatever it is. Do you ever just go, I love this book. Can you bring it without that credibility or, you know, or does it always have to have something that's set that pre-sells it?

Marleen:                      07:48                Ideally it has both, but I, yes, it has happened that I just absolutely fell in love with a book and I managed to sell just on that premise, but it's very rare and it's getting harder and harder. We'll probably talk about that a little bit later on, but with COVID and publishers have become a lot less open or a lot stricter I'd have to say when it comes to selecting titles that they publish. So, the more sales elements that you can give, like hard sales elements on top of, I am personally in love with this novel that yeah, the better it is.

Anna David:                  08:32                Now is there a typical number of, you know, by first book we sold foreign rights and it sold into just two, Italy and Russia. And I didn't know if selling two countries was a lot, a little, like, is there a typical number that one book will sell in?

Marleen:                      08:54                Yeah, that's hard to, I would say Italy is a nice market. It's a big market. So, congratulations on that. And Russia is also not easy to sell into. I have to admit, so yeah, those are, that's a very nice combination. But it really depends. Sometimes, as I said, I love a book and I just don't manage to sell the rights into any territories. And sometimes, I mean, ideally because we spend time pitching a book and submitting and keeping publishers informed whether a book sells into foreign territories or not. So, we already spend our time whether there's results or not. So ideally of course, yeah. It's like five, six, seven territories or more to give you an example, the bestselling title that we have in our catalog in terms of foreign rights, it's sold into 37 territories. So, but that's really an exception, like the second best, I'd say it's like 22, 23 territories. And then there's a whole bunch at like 15, 16, and then, yeah, there's a whole lot of titles that only sell into one or two territories, and then there's even more that don't sell at all. It's just, that's part of the business. As I said, you can never really anticipate any foreign sales for sure or not.

Anna David:                  10:19                It's interesting. Cause I bet it's much easier to predict initial sales because initial sales, I can sort of talk to somebody and know if their book is going to sell sadly, because it's based so much on their platform today. And if they've got to build in audience in that, I bet it's. So, it's easier. I think to tell which books are going to sell here traditionally first, it's sounding like that. What percentage of the books that you sell are traditionally published and what independently published? I'm imagining mostly traditional.

Marleen:                      10:52                Yeah. So, from independently, you mean working with like platforms like Amazon and uploading them. Yeah. So actually, that doesn't happen at all for us at least. And I think that's what most of the industry looks like in terms of foreign rights sales. We really publish, or we work with traditional publishing houses, but they're both independent. What I call independent publishing houses, meaning they don't belong to like a big corporation, like a Random House or Harper Collins. But they're independent, but they still are. They still function in a traditional way.

Anna David:                  11:27                Well, because I first heard about you through, because you're James Altars foreign rights agent and he published independently. Yes. But his book was massively successful. Yeah.

Marleen:                      11:39                As you say, he already had a huge platform. I mean, his blog was, I don't know how many followers he had back then. I think we started to work on his book, Choose Yourself in 2013, but was already an impressive number of followers. And then, when we took, yeah, when we started pitching his title, we could already mention it's a wall street journal bestseller. It has, I don't know how many, I'm just making up number. I think it was like 50,000 copies sold even before we started pitching it. So that is yeah, that's definitely very helpful. And the publishers who ended up publishing him internationally, they're all traditional publishers.

Anna David:                  12:24                Interesting. And you know, I've never heard this before, but, and you may not be able to speak to this, but, but, you know, I've heard about people who do publish directly to Amazon, getting their books translated into Spanish, and then just publishing them to Spanish markets themselves. Is that something you know, anything about?

Marleen:                      12:47                I don't know much about it. I would say it's complicated. First of all, you need to make sure that the quality of the translation is good. I mean, that's, I would say the first point, the first sticking point, and then working on the editorial side, in the foreign language, you need to hire people who are native speakers, editors, and then, but even if all that is good, once you've uploaded it onto Amazon, in Spain or Mexico, like what's going to happen then, right? Yeah. You need somebody to push it. You need to, you need to press, you need publicity. You need marketing. Of course. I don't know if there's like firms’ international firms that you could hire that you could work with as an independently published author. That's actually a good thing. I I've never really looked into that, but as I said, it just brings about a lot of extra work and a lot of extra I'd say costs as well, because you, you, you want to make sure that the book of the quality of the translation and the editing and the layout and the design is good.

Anna David:                  13:55                Right. Right. And so how do you, on that note, how do you launch a book over? So, when my Italy and Russian rights sold, like nothing happened, you know what I mean? Like, is there something I could have done aside from going there? You know, what can the author do to help their book launch in a foreign country?

Marleen:                      14:19                Yeah. That's, I mean, if the author already has a platform there or has already been published previously and has like a fan base or readership that knows him, then usually authors do get invited by the international publisher or there's like literary festivals or who invite authors. And but for first time authors, it's true that publishers tend to want to weight how the book is received and whether the books are selling well before to decide on investing in an invitation. And yeah, I don't really have an answer to that because it's not really that the foreign publisher has their own team of marketing and publicity and who often also don't necessarily speak the language. A lot of people speak English, but I'm thinking, for instance, if a Spanish author is translated into Russian, the Russian sales team does not necessarily speak Spanish and the author doesn't necessarily speak English nor does the press team.

                                    15:26                So it's just, there's a lot of there's a lot of hurdles to overcome there, but yeah, I really can't give you a straight answer to that. It's just a matter of trusting that the foreign publisher knows what they're doing. You know, it's a lot of this as is with publishing in domestically. It's a lot of lot depends on good timing and a lot of luck as well. So that also happens with international publishers when they launch a book, even some books that are, that sell really well. Like for instance, I was speaking with an Italian editor the other day and they published this German book. Speaking of nature, writing it's called the Secret Language of Trees. I don't know if you've heard of it. It was it's so pretty well in the US too. It was originally from Germany and it sold in a lot of countries. It sold really well. And he told me in Italy because I was pitching a nature writing book to him and he's like, hmm. You know, comparing it to that book, doesn't really help here because it just, we did everything we could, we even, we invited the author because it was like an international sensation and it just didn't, it didn't sell.

                                    16:42                So there's yeah, there's, I'm afraid that I don't think there's much the author can do, unless the author already, like, has a specific connection with that language, can speak it, can actually, you know, record a video sometimes that's what happens, especially now when authors can not travel to the countries to help launch the book. The foreign publishers Aussie authors to record a video, if they can do it in the local language, that would be very helpful and reach out on social media. But other than that, there's not much an author could do. I'm afraid other than just hope for the best.

Anna David:                  17:24                So you mentioned, you know, that things have changed a lot, so would you say it's getting much harder? I mean, you sort of did say that, it's getting harder and harder to sell foreign rights. Fewer foreign rights are selling now?

Marleen:                      17:37                Yeas, I'd say it's more concentrated. So foreign rights to sell, but it's like the best-selling authors and the best-selling titles that are getting sold for more money and then kind of the mid list authors that sell okay. Domestically, but there's not much else to going on around it. They tend to be overlooked just because, you know, with COVID, a lot of countries had bookstores that were closed for months. I spoke with a UK editor this morning and they in the spring their bookstores were closed for 12 weeks. And they're actually getting into a lockdown new lockdown tomorrow. And everybody is a little bit better prepared it seems to handle online sales, but still a lot of publications that were initially scheduled in the spring had to be postponed, which pushed forward to titles that was supposed to be published in the Fall to next spring.

                                    18:36                So everything has been kind of shuffled around, which leaves a lot less space for new acquisitions, because of course, publishers also continue with authors that they they've already acquired titles from before. And they come out with new titles. So, this leaves a lot less room for new acquisitions. This is, let's hope this is a temporary situation, but that's what I felt in this last, these last two, three months. And also, well people, we just don't know what's, what's going to happen. And a lot of foreign rights sales depend also, I have to mention this because it's, it's part of the, as you say a little bit, maybe the glamorous side of it, it's we travel a lot to international book fairs, there are two really important trade shows that take place in London in the spring and in Frankfurt, Germany in the fall. And obviously London was canceled very last minute.

                                    19:30                So nothing happened. It was like a big void. Everybody was grappling with just surviving and the situation in March. And the Frankfurt book fair went fully virtual. So, we just had zoom meetings for two weeks, three weeks nonstop. I actually went, I worked on night shifts because I'm in California. So, and I wanted to make the most of it. So, I started at 1:00 AM until nine or 10:00 AM. But I've noticed that because nobody's meeting in person, you know, a lot depends on relationships. If you know, specific editors really well, they trust you and trust your opinion. So, and then that case, if you say, I love this book, they're much more likely to say, okay, I need to read it now because Marleen loves it. And all that just happens so much better when you're there in person, even on a screen, it's just not the same. So, for us right sellers, the job has become more challenging because everything is digital.

                                    20:33                We're not seeing anybody in person and all we can do now is submit titles and send out reminders and send out newsletters about bestseller rankings. But all of the right sellers are doing that. Now editors are telling me we're getting so much more in our inbox, just, so we need to find creative ways to pitch our titles and the Frankfurt book fair. As I said, it went fully digital. It offered possibilities to record webinars, but I decided not to attend because it's also, I was going to sit in for half an hour when there's not, it's not a personal thing. It really is about the personal connection. So, I know a few agencies did record webinars. Yeah. I have no idea. It's still too soon to say whether they were successful or not, or whether it was useful or not. So, it's just, that's changed a lot in our dealings, in our daily lives.

                                    21:33                So it's yeah, as I said, it's, it's, it's a bit more challenging. Publishers are, they are buying less, but they continue to buy. And in the end, everybody that the general spirit was pretty much uplifting. A lot of sales were made over the summer and in the Fall, whereas obviously the spring wasn't so glorious, so to speak. But so, yeah, I think that the international publishing market is resilient, but it is, it's gotten a lot tighter,

Anna David:                  22:06                But at the same time you know, all studies show reading is up. People are reading more. There's possibly, you know, and possibly that will last after we're out of this crazy period. So, who knows it could, you know, there could be a resurgence?

Marleen:                      22:23                For sure. A lot of editors told me also that they like people who tend to spend money on cultural activities, like going to museums or to the theater or to the movie theater, which in many countries have been closed since March. So, they now spend their money more on books. So, it's definitely, yeah, but books, as I said, a lot of publishers had a really good summer and good Fall now, of course the Christmas period is always very important. And now with, the threat of, you know, many more countries going down in lockdown and the bookstores, not being able to count on these walk-ins like shopping experiences. That's what I meant with the uncertainty. We don't really know what's going to happen like in the next couple of months, but I mean, I'm with you, let's hope that that just people are rediscovering reading and that it will be, yeah, it will outlast this horrible pandemic that we're living through.

Anna David:                  23:24                And so, as we wrap up, tell me about your podcast, why you decided to start it and how it's going?

Marleen:                      23:32                So I've been wanting to start a podcast for a while. Actually, it's my husband who was co-founder of the agency. I always say he's the entrepreneurial of our couple, he actually started a podcast for one of his companies and then he was like, Oh, why don't you start one? I'm sure nobody's doing it in the international publishing world. And as like, yeah, I'll look into it. And there's always so much else to do so, but then obviously, as I said, the London book fair didn't happen. I was in Amsterdam for one week and then I flew back right before the borders shut. And then yeah, people were just stressed out and were very much in need to reconnect. And so was I, so normally we just have this world line of meetings for four days in a row of meetings and then drinks and dinners. And you just catch up with so many people in that one week of the London book fair, that just didn't happen.

                                    24:33                And people were eager to reconnect. And I was really eager to reconnect, connect with people in another way. So, I decided to then, yeah, start the podcast. And initially it was about, the very first episode was, it focused on how the agency has been working with a remote office since the beginning. Which a lot of publishers were having to deal with because, yeah, everybody was working from home at the time and definitely did not know how to do it. It was really interesting to see. So that was like the initial, like how do we do it? Which programs did we use? Just very like nitty-gritty stuff. And then I got a lot of positive feedback and then people started reaching out, Oh, I'd love to talk to you. And also, because so many countries were going through a similar experience, but in a different rhythm, obviously China and Korea had the shutdowns already sooner and then Europe arrived.

                                    25:34                And then the US, so I thought it was also really interesting to reach out to publishers from specific territories and just ask them about what's going on in your country. How are you dealing with pandemic and how is your publishing company or your agency dealing with the pandemic? What do you think are people reading are audio books on the rise? Obviously, that was an important topic then because so many people couldn't buy print books because Amazon was also not prioritizing books. So that was the onset. And I yeah, I'm actually starting season two tomorrow recording the first episode, I took a little break with the Frankfurt book fair season. And, but it's been great and I absolutely love it. It's just, it's another way to connect with people because we're just, we're not seeing each other now. And everybody is very, very sad about not being able to see each other. It's a really magical experience those two book fairs, Frankfurt and London, there's plenty of others that I also go to. But those are the two where everybody just shows up and yeah, it's like a reunion.

Anna David:                  26:49                So, in terms of audio, do you sell foreign rights of audio books too, and hire actors in English?

Marleen:                      27:01                So the, the foreign publishers, usually nowadays, when they buy the publishing rights to a book and the translation rights, to a book, they acquire print, eBook, and audio book rights. So that all is in one contract. And then the foreign publisher either they sub-license it to a specific audio book publisher who then takes care of the production or what is happening more and more, they have it recorded in-house because then they own the master files obviously, and they can do a lot of things with it. So yeah, definitely audio is on the rise. I would say it's nowhere near the levels in terms of sales and income. It's nowhere near the levels it has in the US and the UK and other English language markets. Germany has been strong in the audio book market for a couple of years now where it actually is. It's like a competitor to the mass market paperback edition.

                                    27:56                Even in other countries, it's still very much at the very beginning, but there is interest and people are interested in having the audio book rise and more and more are telling us if we can't have the audio rights, then we're not making an offer altogether. And that's also because I don't know if you've heard of there's a Swedish company called Storytell it's a little bit like, yeah, they've been aggressively expanding internationally. They originally started out in the Scandinavian countries, but now they're also operating in the Netherlands and Spain and Bulgaria all around, also in Asia. So that is, they have really accelerated the developments. And especially in terms of streaming, it's mainly a streaming platform.

Anna David:                  28:51                Hmm. Well, this has been delightful. Thank you so much. If people want to find you and listen to your podcast, how can they do that?

Marleen:                      29:01                So, I would say they go to the website 2Csagency.com, which is a two, the number two. And there is a link to the podcast on the website, but otherwise, it's called the Make Books Travel podcasts because we make books travel and it's available on Spotify, Google podcasts, iTunes, wherever you listen to some of your regular podcasts.

Anna David:                  29:26                Well, wonderful. Thanks so much. And thank you guys for listening and I will see you next week. Not you, them. I'm not going to see anybody. I'm going to talk to you.

LINKS:

2 Seas Agency

Make Books Travel podcast

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

How Do I Make My Book a NY Times Bestseller?

 

TABLE OF CONTENTS:

Why is it So Hard to Get on The New York Times Bestseller List?

How Many Copies Do You Have to Sell to Hit the List?

What Happens If You Try to Game The List?

If You Still Want to Get on the List...

Here's Why I Don't Think It Matters

Why is it So Hard to Get on The New York Times Bestseller List?

The New York Times list is the most prestigious list, followed by The Wall Street Journal and the USA Today list. The reason that the New York Times list is so hard is that they admit it is not based on sales. It is based sort of on sales and sort of on what they like.

And the only reason this information came out is because of a 1983 lawsuit by William Blatty, who's known for writing the book The Exorcist. He wrote a book called Legion that sold really well, yet was only on the list for a week. He knew that it should have been there longer.

He took his case to court and the Times defended itself on the grounds that this is a direct quote: The list did not purport to be an objective compilation of information, but instead was an editorial product.” They admitted they just didn't want stuff they thought was trashy. The court sided with the Times, dismissing this three million dollar lawsuit. But the truth was established.

How Many Copies Do You Have to Sell to Hit the List?

The window for reporting each week closes at noon on Tuesdays and is announced on Wednesdays at seven o'clock Eastern Standard Time. That reflects the previous week's Sunday to Saturday sales period.

So how many books do you need to sell in order to have a New York Times bestseller?

The problem is there is no definitive answer because it depends on what books are being released that week and how many copies they are selling. The general thinking used to be it took five thousand sales in a week to hit the list. Now they say it's more like ten thousand.

If you're saying, "Really that's all?" Well, that is so many freaking books. It is a lot of books. Now, you can't just go buy 10000 copies on Amazon. That's not going to work.

The way the list works is there are New York Times reporting stores. Nobody knows which of the stores are New York Times reporting and which aren't.

It's kind of like being a Nielsen family, which, by the way, my mom was a Nielsen family and they came in, they took the box away because she didn't watch enough TV. Now she's older. She watches plenty of TV but that’s beside the point.

Supposedly, you can go into a store, a bookstore and ask them if they are a New York Times reporting store and they will tell you. 

What Happens If You Try to Game The List?

A Forbes story in 2013 by Jeff Bercovici talked about a company called Results Source that you would pay $211,000 and they would make you a New York Times bestseller. But The New York Times started to catch on. 

They started to see that people were gaming the system, though the time they really realized that was in 2017, when a book called Handbook for Mortals written by somebody named Lani Sarem, a book which is, by all accounts, unreadable, with a terrible cover suddenly launched ahead of this book called The Hate U Give, which was this huge book by Angie Thomas and became a movie. 

Handbook for Mortals became a number one New York Times bestseller in the Y.A. category, and it was from a brand new publishing house called Geek Nation that was oddly affiliated with Thomas Ian Nicholas, the guy from American Pie. Apparently, they basically figured out what bookstores reported to the list and then they ordered just under the amount that would seem suspicious, like 80 books at an independent store, 30 copies at Barnes Noble.

Apparently, they were calling stores asking, "Do you report to the list?" And a journalist uncovered this.  And then all these people from the bookstores wrote in and tweeted at the journalists “Yeah I was the bookseller. We thought this sounded super suspicious.”

So what the Times started to do is they put a dagger next to the book if they suspected that it was bulk sales; the little dagger kind of means “this isn't real.” That being said, lots of people don't even notice a little dagger or know what it means. But regardless, it became much more scrupulously watched by the Times after this Handbook for Mortals conversation happened.

Now, here's the interesting thing. A lot of these Fox News guys, the way they got New York Times bestsellers is that they would basically say “Buy a ticket to this event” and the book is included in it. So that's a way to do it.

But know this: the list doesn't track cumulative sales, so say the Bible has never been on New York Times bestseller; it is only tracking sales for that week. So Don Quixote and A Tale of Two Cities sell millions of copies and are never going to be on the list.

If You Still Want to Get on the List...

Your chances depend on the time of year. So in February or March, it's going to be easier to get on the list. It's going to be easier to sell more copies than other books because there are fewer books being released than, say, in the fall. All of this is changing all the time.

I'm now a firm believer in the fact that there's no bad time or a good time to release a book, but there are arguments for all of them. But the point is that even if you sell 10,000 copies in that week, you are still not guaranteed. It is all murky and mysterious and there are exceptions. But for the most part, independent books, books we release ourselves, cannot make lists because of that little editorial standard snobbishness we were talking about.

There are exceptions, but in general, it has to be a book that's released by a major publisher.

And it also has to be the right kind of bulk orders. You can't order bulk copies from a printer and have that count. There is a website called Bookpal.com, which does discount bulk orders and they do report to the list. So let's say I haven't discouraged you and all you want is a New York Times bestseller and you're releasing your book yourself. Know that your chances are minimal. But set up a Book Pal account and maybe go into your local store and ask, “Hey, do you report to The New York Times?”

Here's Why I Don't Think It Matters

I'm somebody who actually has a New York Times bestselling book (I'll be totally honest, it was the e-book extended list. It still counts!) But I have seen so many authors obsess over hitting the New York Times list and basically make themselves miserable because they don't achieve this goal that 0.01 percent of authors achieve. I think it is a silly goal.

I think it is far better to focus on sales on Amazon or if you really focus on the list, something like The Wall Street Journal list or the USA Today list or The Washington Post list, where it is less of a sort of editorial thing and more based on sales.

OK, so that is it. That is today's episode. Remember, I will answer your publishing questions if you DM on the Instagram, I'm @annabdavid.

LINKS:

The Forbes story about Reliable Source

The William Blatty lawsuit against the Times

The Handbook for Mortals scandal

BookPal

RELATED EPISODES:

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Rachel Hollis Launches a Book

A Play-by-Play Breakdown of How Tim Ferriss Launches a Book

CLICK ON ANY OF THE LINKS BELOW TO HEAR THIS EPISODE!

QUOTE OF THE POD:

"So many authors obsess over hitting the New York Times list and basically make themselves miserable because they don't achieve this goal that 0.01 percent of authors achieve."

Katie DePaola on Building Your Brand with a Book

Katie DePaola on Building Your Brand with a Book

This is an exciting time for the podcast for several reasons, at least one of which is that WE HAVE A NEW NAME! Yes, this has happened before. Oh yes, AfterPartyPod, Recover Girl, Light Hustler, Struggle to Success and some names I'm forgetting were used at some point. But this is the one we're sticking with and I'm not just saying that!

So why this change? Well, in this episode, I explain that since the show was becoming increasingly about how to build your brand with a book, it seemed only right to have a podcast name that reflected it. And now we've got it!

I couldn't have asked for a better guest for this pivot, since she's not only a brand builder extraordinaire but also a friend whose book I feel privileged to be able to publish.

Katie DePaola is an author, speaker, entrepreneur and the founder of Inner Glow Circle, a company dedicated to helping women entrepreneurs find their glow and live purpose-driven lives.

But most relevantly for our show, she is the author of At Least You Look Good: How to Glow Through What You Go Through, the latest release from Launch Pad Publishing. The book is part memoir, part self-help and all love; it's Katie's story about surviving Lyme disease and her brother's death by overdose while building her multi-million dollar business. 

Just because I have a guest this week doesn't mean those Q&A or break-the-expert's-strategy-down episodes are no longer. I'll continue alternating different ways of showing you guys how to build your brand with a book, both on my own and with special guests.

All of which is to say: if you want me to answer your writing question on this show, DM me on Instagram at @annabdavid!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Anna David:                  00:01                Katie. This is so fun. I'm having fun already. Are you?

Katie:                           00:05                Of course, I'm having fun. I always have fun with you, Anna.

Anna David:                  00:08                This is our second interview. You may be the very first guest that I've interviewed twice.

Katie:                           00:17                Wow. I feel really honored.

Anna David:                  00:20                Well, the thing is, and it's because you're a podcast listener, you know how many times this podcast has changed focus. So, you're now on for a completely different reason.

Katie:                           00:31                I went back and looked and I really listened to our podcast because it was so good. And it was two titles ago.

Anna David:                  00:39                Yes. Well, yes, you're absolutely right. And it was so good that fans of yours reviewed it on iTunes, which takes a lot. Imagine hearing a guest and liking it so much, that one episode that you would go and review it. That's a very giving, supportive person. All you reviewers we're talking to you. So now what we're talking about is your book launch. It will be out tomorrow. It's the map is confusing for me because we're recording it early, but it's out this week. You guys go grab it. It's called At Least You Look Good, and it is published by none other than Launchpad Publishing. So, so Katie let's talk well, let's talk about your decision to write a book because it has been a long time coming. This one. When did you first decide you wanted to write a book and why?

Katie:                           01:37                I mean, I do feel like I'm one of those people who similar to you, like always wanted to be a writer, almost like writing books when I was like seven or whatever. But I sort of had forgotten about the dream a little bit as I think so many of us do. And then truly, and I talk about this a little bit in my book and certainly in the acknowledgements, but two things happened. One, I met Erica Jong at a women's writing retreat and she like looked me square in the eye and said, you have a book in you. And that was after reading some of my writing out loud to her, which I was in my early twenties. I was like, you know, about to pee my pants, maybe did as that was happening. And I remember I was the youngest person at the retreat and you know, I went home and I like tore through Fear of Flying and like, really, I just felt so connected. And I was like, Oh, I'm, I'm like this woman I'm like these women and yet didn't know exactly how that would play out. And then I had separately, had a psychic tell me a few years later, I remember she said, Oh, honey, you have so many books in you.

                                    02:49                And that sort of reignited it again. And so, there were things that I had written at that retreat. And after that retreat, I feel like we're always writing. And I remember something Erica said to me, she was like, you know, you have these characters inside of you. And your kind of always like hearing them. And then eventually it becomes really clear. And, you know, I think this is really relevant for people who are listening, but like, I'm me. And I also have this like character inside of me. Right. And so, I ended up writing a memoir. That's the book that I'm publishing with your team, Anna, but it's also like a, it's a character, right? Like I started to learn who Katie was and who Katie needed to be to the world in a way to be able to show up as a teacher. So, it's been a long time coming, like you said.

Anna David:                  03:44                So what did you learn about Katie that you didn't know, how did you, how did do writing this book change you also? Sorry, it's kind of separate.

Katie:                           03:55                Well, I think that the book changed me in that writing for me was extremely therapeutic editing was really difficult. Like it was also therapeutic, but it pulled a lot out of me. And I think what I learned the most about myself was and is my resilience and like my capacity to do hard things. So, for those who are listening and don't know my personal story, I lost my brother within a very short span of time. I got diagnosed with chronic Lyme disease that they said I had, you know, to the tune of you have brain damage and damage to your organs. And then I lost my little brother to an accidental overdose. He was 20 years old. He died in my parents' home. It was, you know, obviously we knew he was struggling, but you don't expect that ever I think, and that was, you know, the worst experience of my life. And I hope it will never get worse than that, but it was, you know, it was earth shattering.

                                    05:03                And then I was in a really, really, really bad relationship that I didn't realize how bad it was because I was dealing with all these other traumas, but I ended up sort of dealing with this, this trifecta of trauma. And that ended with my ex who I was engaged to who had given me I guess I won't tell you guys you'll have to read the book, but a blank carat ring and really had shown up as this like Knight in shining Armor, but was the exact opposite that ended with him calling and breaking up with me after committing himself to the psych ward. So, it was a lot, it was a lot. And I knew for me, writing had always been the therapeutic thing. I never felt like people understood me. I never felt like my parents understood me. And so, I would go to my room and I would write, and that's how I dealt with my life, and all the crazy things happening in my brain. So, it was certainly a coping that I think is also a gift.

Anna David:                  06:02                This is so interesting because the book and I should mention the subtitle is How to Glow Through What You Go Through and Katie's company, as you heard in the intro is called Inner Glow. Back when she did come on the podcast two incarnations ago, I think I even had glow in my title, struggle to success something, and we really bonded over glowing. So, this is your journey. How do you, or did you glow through what you went through and how do you tell readers to?

Katie:                           06:38                Yeah, so I talk about this in the book pretty extensively, but you know, glow was a word that had kind of been in my life and in my orbit. And my very first company quote company that I started when I was like, I don't know, 14 with a friend that was never actually, you know, never left my parents' basement, but it was called Live So That You Glow, like too long of a business, but that was like, you know, what we wrote on our business cards. And then when I started my first company, which was a spray tanning business, I called it Whole Glow and, you know, then I added coaching and I was like, okay, there's the outer glow. And then there's the inner glow. I was trying to find a way to tie all these things together, to tie all these parts of me together. And I think when you have a business that is a personal brand or has an aspect of a personal brand.

                                    07:30                You know, you're trying to figure out who you are while you're also figuring out what the business is. And I always say to like our students, like you are your ideal client. Like the thing that you struggle with typically is the thing that your ideal clients will struggle with in some capacity. And so, a lot of the people that we serve are people who, you know, are looking for their glow. And for us, that's defined as greatest level of want. That's what we call it. Greatest level of want as in glow, as an acronym. And I never knew that that was what it meant. But one day I was like on a run and it finally came to me cause, I always felt, you know, maybe it had a deeper meaning. And to me, the greatest happiness in life is finding, getting clear on what you really want and then going after it.

Anna David:                  08:21                Right, right. Now let's talk about the company because what Katie didn't explain is, while all these traumas were going on. She was starting in her Glow. So, talk about that please.

Katie:                           08:36                So what's so crazy is that I started IGC and then exactly 100 days later to the day I got the call that my little brother had died. Like I literally woke up one day. My other brother, I was traveling, my other brother called me and he said, you need to come home now, Bo's dead. And you know, I mean, you never quite recover from, from hearing those words, but I had to keep going. I felt I had to keep going because I had just started this company. And to be completely honest, having a business and having people to show up for, in my case, it was women to show up for my team. And also, people I was serving clients was the thing that kept me alive. Like getting that call and experiencing the death of a sibling for me was completely earth-shattering.

                                    09:39                It also brought up a lot of my own struggles with mental health and took me on a an intense journey that I'm still on of understanding myself in that way. And so, yeah, I mean, it's like, wow, I can't believe I, that was all the same time. And also thank God. It was all the same time because, you know, I don't know what I wouldn't would have done Anna if I didn't have something really positive to throw myself into, because I didn't feel positive at all. I felt like I was deep, deep, deep in the dark trenches.

Anna David:                  10:14                Well, and to speak to your point about you were building what you needed, you know, what you tell your students.

Katie:                           10:21                Yeah. We say create the thing you wish existed. And I think there's a line in the book. I forget exactly what it says, but it's something like create the thing that you wish existed when you were stuck in the dark and create it before you're ready. Like, I think that's so important. We have this whole thing and I don't know if it's like largely women or just people in general. I think it's just people, but we never feel like we're ready. I think this is one of the things I love so much about you, Anna in particular is like, I do feel like you just get an idea.

Anna David:                  10:56                I do it before like, I'm ready. Always. Yes.

Katie:                           10:58                Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, that inspires the people around you too, because you definitely have a high bar, but you also are like, let's just try, let's just try, let's see what happens. And you know, I, a little bit come from that mindset of like, let's, you know, let's throw pasta at the wall and see what sticks, maybe it's the Italian in me, but you don't know sometimes. And I hear this from like super, super successful people all the time. Like sometimes the thing that you really hoped, like musicians say this a lot, like the song that was a hit was like the one that they just kind of like spit out and they were like, nah, but then the one that they're like, Oh, I really think this is going to be a hit, like falls flat. And that's why it's important to create from wherever you are. Like, you know, we want to be in like a really great place, but sometimes our most beautiful creations can come from our shitiest places. So like, I think if you're an artist, meaning a writer or a musician or, you know, a business person, I think business is a form of art, then I think you should be challenging yourself to create from wherever you are.

Anna David:                  12:14                Yeah. That's so interesting. I mean, if I could count the number of things I desperately wanted, that I'm so grateful I didn't get now. And the things that just, you know, when I was building Launchpad, I was desperately trying to make online courses work. And I spent, meanwhile, people are coming to me and saying, Hey, I'd love to pay you a lot of money to write and publish my book. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, whatever. I'm trying to sell these $17 courses to people who think they're too expensive. And it took me, so it took several people coming to me and being like, I need you to do this. And I will tell you to figure out how for me to get it through my skull. That that was the path. It wasn't my idea of what the path was going to be. So, okay. So how does the book play into it all? So it came from just this, like, you know, try older adolescent kind of escaping into a room to write, but how does it play into the business? The brand, all of it?

Katie:                           13:14                Yeah. It's funny. I was telling like my godmother this today, but when I was really young, I mean probably like 14 or something. I remember telling my grandfather who I talk about a lot in the book. He said, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I said, I want to be a writer. And he was like, you can't be a writer. You won't make any money. Right. And that was like, you know, he was kind of like first-generation wealth or some sort of wealth and had started a company. And probably was learning that it was better to live with some money than not with money and wanted his grandkids to learn how to work and be in business. Right. And it's funny cause you know, you always say similar stuff, like the message is delivered differently, but it's funny because you say similar things, Anna, that like it's not building wealth is not about the book necessarily. It's about what opportunities come from it. And so it's interesting because I look back and I'm like, wow, I really did take my grandfather's advice.

                                    14:22                I built a company before I wrote a book, but I was always writing, you know? And I think that's really important. Like the people are always writing in the backgrounds of their lives, the way it played out for me, like very literally is I really spent the last two years not to scare people, but spent the last two years, a lot of nights and weekends writing because I was running my company and, you know, and dealing with everything else that was going on. And so, you know, I think that like the business aspect is so interesting. And like for me, it was about, I wanted to get my business established and settled before I went to publish a book because I didn't fully know who I was yet. I don't think it has to happen one way or another. But I do think that writing a book can very much be and is often tied to having a business. And that like this overarching thing is your brand. You know, who you are, how you serve the world, what your purpose is, what you're here to offer, and all of those things.

                                    15:36                And so I don't know for me, like they go super hand in hand. I know the book is not a lot about my business. It's not, I don't think it's very much about the business. It's about what was happening in the background with my business, but you know, but it's so integral in like who I am. And I know that the book is going to open up so many other doors. I mean, even just like putting it on Amazon, like Amazon is a total search engine in and of itself. Like as a business owner, you're always looking for people to find you. And I know that people are going to find me and I think books have like legs, right. They have this viral sort of ability. And so for me, that's like the most exciting part of it is just seeing, I don't know, but seeing what other doors it could and will open.

Anna David:                  16:28                Oh my God, that's you just said so many things I want to unpack. You know, first of all, I was raised by the same people I was told, you know, no, you can't be a writer. You have to go to law school. Like they were mystified by my desire. And I really, they didn't say it in the nicest way and I was really defiant about it. And so I think that I was so determined to prove them wrong. I mean, my grandmother would send me articles about how no writers make it. And you know, and I always wanted to be from the kind of family that, you know, that says like, you can do it yet. I'll tell you the most successful people I know are from the families who said you can't do it. And the ones who were just told how amazing they are, the sort of gold ribbon society.

Katie:                           17:16                Totally.

Anna David:                  17:17                Yeah. Are just like, don't understand why things are so hard. And so I was so determined to prove them wrong, that I crank out six books in six years for Harper Collins. Like I've made it. And I remember calling my dad and being like, I just sold by six book and he goes, well, you would've made more money as a lawyer. And because the family value was so about money. I think that I really went in the opposite direction. And so I was a broke writer. And then I just sort of woke up and said, there's nothing admirable about being broke, working this hard. And being broke. Writers may be undervalued, but writing skills are highly valued. So how can I take my skill set and do and make money? And then setting up this company was the way I'm able to do that. And I think that that's why I preach it all the time, because a lot of people say, well, I'm going to write a book. I'm going to make all this money. Like, we all think it's going to be different for us, when you go into it without this mindset. And it took me so long to learn it, but I always say you won't make money from a book, but you can make a shitload of money from having a book.

Katie:                           18:37                I love that. It's so true. Yeah. I mean, I don't know yet I'll find out in two weeks or a week, but, you know, I really do hear you with that. And I think it's people it's important for people to know that and to be aware of that, just that they're not like going in with, you know, missed expectations, like, yeah, it's an incredible vehicle, you know, and you know that, and you've seen that. I was sort of the opposite though. Like I went, like build the business route and then my creativity was sort of cut off. Like I said, I was always writing in the background and writing things down and hearing these little threads of things. I mean, truly, there's like certain lines that I wrote probably five or six years ago, just journaling that are made it into the book. And that's really cool for me. Like I loved scrapbooking growing up and like, to me it felt like that. Yeah. So you and I are so kindred.

Anna David:                  19:32                We really are, I was obsessed with scrapbooks, go on.

Katie:                           19:35                Yes. But that's what it felt like to me is like pulling all these pieces together of myself from the past, from the present, even from the future, you know, and I talk about like connecting with your future self in the book, but my creativity had really gone flat and I will say Anna, and I think I said this a little bit in the book, at least in my acknowledgements, and I don't want to get too emotional, but you know, really going through the process of writing this book and you've been such a huge part of that. Like, it really did bring me back to life. I mean, I, my faith, my outlook on the world, like I had lost so much of that vibrancy that I had. And you know, I always said to myself, or really to God more, at least for me is like, if I'm going to go through all of this, like you better make it worth it, both to myself. And, you know, to, to the powers that be, and, you know, there's, I am in no way saying that, like losing my brother or any of those things are worth it because I've now written a book, like no way, no, how, not, what I'm here to preach. But I will say that being able to literally glow through what I go through, but take my pain and make it something that is pretty and funny and touching. And I'm getting so many, like incredible messages from people who have pre-ordered and, you know, like, not that it's worth it, but it makes it like, make a little more sense in my brain.

Anna David:                  21:15                Totally. And I mean, in 12 step that's the whole thing is we go through this in order to be able to help someone else through this. And, you know, cause otherwise it can be really hard to make sense of these things that happen to us and totally you get to help. And that's why books are so important because there's only so much work we can do one-on-one with people, by putting it in a book you're able to help hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. I mean, I've never gotten to that many people, but let's just be optimistic. And I love that it was so healing for you because I think that's another part of it. I don't know of anything more therapeutic than, well therapy and 12 step are quite therapeutic, but the next on the list is writing for me.

Katie:                           22:08                Yeah. And like, you know, like to the level of like my brother gets to live on, you know, and my family had started a foundation in his name and you know, it still exists. We're still working at it and people write and say like, Oh, because of how openly you guys are talking about mental health and addiction. Like, you know, my sister is like doing so much better, just like random stories. And like, I know that Bo is like so proud of himself. Like I talk a lot in the book about building a relationship with someone who's quote unquote on the other side or his past. And I know a lot of people will think that's super weird, but for me it like literally again, like saved my brain because I was like, Oh, there's a whole chapter that's called. He's not dead. And after getting the call, like Bo's dad, you need to come home to write that and to decide to use that as the title was like, so ballsy for me. And also, so like, I'm going to establish what happened here, you know? And my whole family really believes that Bose energy is still available.

                                    23:17                I don't know if this is too out there, but and I shared this on Instagram the other day, but I was doing like a card reading. I don't know if you're like into that kind of stuff at all. So I have this taro deck or this like deck of cards. That's like, I don't know about connecting with dead people. Right. Cause like, that's one of my hobbies. And I literally pulled a card the other day when I was like anxious about the book stuff and blah, blah, blah. And it's their messages from people who have passed, you know, quote unquote and it says I'm not dead. And I'm like, this is after like, you know, I mean, this was wow the other day. And I'm like, Bo you little sucker, you know, it's just funny. Like, and I say too, in the book, my greatest level of want, I thought that it was for my brother to stay alive. But what it really was for my brother to fulfill his purpose and like he's doing that and I'm helping him do that. And so it's like, it's not that it's like, Oh yeah, happy story, the end. But it's like hard story. Let's figure out what ending we'd rather have here. Or I guess we're in the middle of it. But you know, you get to write your life. And for me, writing was part of how I rewrote my life.

Anna David:                  24:29                Yeah. I mean, I always say this, it's like, you get to rewrite the story with you as the hero or heroine. Yeah. It didn't happen to us. It happened for us. And here, let me tell you the story. And like you said, it's the middle of it. We get to retell the stories all the time. So, okay. And so in terms of the brand and the possibilities, like what are your dream possibilities? Sure, more people are going Amazon is the third largest search engine in the world. So people are going to find you, but is it speaking? Like what would you most want this book to do for you?

Katie:                           25:07                Oh my God. I don't know. I mean, I feel like it could be like a movie, like I'm so open and I don't want to like pigeonhole the universe. So like I'm really open and certainly I want to be speaking and you know, I see myself on like big stages whenever we're able to do that again. And I don't know how long it will take me or I don't even know if that's what I'm going to want in three years. I mean, you really don't know, but I would say that my greatest level of want for the book, my highest level intention is for it to be a vehicle of change. Like I think it can save people's lives to be honest. And I, maybe that sounds like a ego, but I don't know. I wrote parts of the book for sure, but like God had a hand in it as well. And I know my brother was guiding me too, so I don't really know if it's like for me to say, but I think it could go a lot of places and I'm super down for that ride. Yeah.

Anna David:                  26:14                Yeah. I love it. And I will say this too, that though it was a struggle to get out. Like once you knew where it was. Well, first of all, I loved how open you were to suggestions because I knew you'd worked really hard and I kept wanting to dig in there and be like, okay, now let's do this. Now let's do this. I even tried to change the title. You would not have it. And it's good. It's good. But it's, I think once we know where we're going, I think a lot of writers get super off track because they're just, they're going to writing workshops and they're getting advice from this person and then they're writing and then they, you know, and that's why I'm always sort of hammering home structure and have a plan because if you try to write a book on your own without help or by Googling editors, like you could be doing this for years, decades.

Katie:                           27:05                Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think like you have so much experience, your team has so much experience. Like I wouldn't, I certainly wouldn't have been able to, I wouldn't have been able to publish this book without you and without our partnerships. So I am extremely grateful.

Anna David:                  27:23                I wasn't trying to get you to say that, but I will say so we met listeners when Katie was on the podcast. This is like the only, you know, I made a list recently of all our clients and how they all came to me. And you were the only one where it's like, we, we, I was just like, who is this girl? It wasn't even over zoom. So I never even saw your face. No, maybe was over zoom. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I just said, I want to hang out. And you said, well, I happened to be coming to LA next week. Let's have brunch. We have like nine hour brunch where we talked about Lisso and then, and then we just kept chatting. And then I was, I was really surprised actually, when you reached out to me, you were like, I want to talk to you about a book because I knew you already had plans and it had been gone anyway, I was thrilled. And I've been really thrilled with this experience.

Katie:                           28:17                Well, I found myself like really reading all of your emails and then like saving them like a weirdo. And like, I don't do that with a lot of people. I don't like people's emails. My favorite thing is unsubscribing. So like I, and, you know, you had just been like very reliable, like when I had a little question about anything, you know, you were just it's hard to find people that you can like count on, you know? And so I sound like I'm doing commercial now, but really from my heart. I was like, I think I actually called you one day in like a panic and was like, I'm freaking out. And you're like, you just need to have fun. And I was like, what in the world is she talking about? But I was really, look, my book meant a lot to me. It still means a lot to me. Right. So there's like this careful balance between like holding your baby and like, like setting her free. And I just like, you can't do that with anybody. Like I just was nervous and that's okay. Like, and I remember I was like, Katie, just because you're nervous to work with Anna doesn't mean it's wrong just because you're nervous.

Anna David:                  29:25                Cause your just nervous. If it had gone awry, you know, then it, cause we have a personal relationship. I, yeah, I was yeah, it's funny. Cause I remember exactly where I was walking when you called me. And I because we relate so much, I could hear the anxiety in your voice. And I've had, you know, six miserable book releases with Harper Collins and two glorious ones with myself. And I was like, I want you to have a glorious experience. And then we decided to work together.

Katie:                           29:57                I think there was this part of me that had disbelief that it was even possible for me to enjoy the process because let's be real. I've had a lot of crazy . And like, I'm not, I'm not one of those people. That's used to things being easy. I'm used to things being hard. So when you were like, you can enjoy this. This can be fun. We can take a lot of the work off your plate. I was like, I thought there was no way in hell, but now being on the other side, it's been incredible experience. I've gotten to know myself even more. I feel really, really, really great about what I'm putting out into the world. And I'm somebody who 100% once my face or my name and in this case, my face and my name next to something, I feel really proud of. I'm like a total perfectionist. And yeah, like I said, I just feel really grateful.

Anna David:                  30:49                I'm so psyched. I'm and I feel grateful for you. So, so as we wrap up, tell people how they can find your book. And do you want to give like a couple sentence summary?

Katie:                           31:00                Yeah. So you can go to amazon.com and type in, At Least You Look Good or my name, right? I don't know?

Anna David:                  31:08                Yeah. But you also have a site right? For the book.

Katie:                           31:11                Yeah. Go to innerglowcircle.com/book, easy to remember. And the book is about what I've been talking about. It's how I learned to Glow AKA survive through everything I was going through when I got Lyme lost my little brother and was, was trying to leave a toxic, toxic, abusive relationship. And it's about the ups and the downs, my, what I've been hearing. And what I also know from experience is that it's the kind of book that will make you laugh out loud and also cry. So it's funny when people are like texting me and they're like also reading while they're working out or something, or they're like in a public place, which you can't go a ton of public places right now, but they're like, I'm in a coffee shop, reading your book. And you know, I'm crying. And I don't know, it's just cool to have people have that experience. But I think the book is incredibly healing and there are some self-helpy kind of exercises, but you know what someone said to me, she said I've read so many self-help books, but after reading your book, I feel like I've never read a self-help book because yours was actually so helpful. And it's just very authentic. I'm very honest. And I talk about love and loss and how we can use the experience of loss to really get back to love very quickly. It's really a book about resilience.

Anna David:                  32:43                Well, this has been delightful, Katie, thank you so much for being my guest and y'all listeners. Thank you so much for listening. Go grab Katie's book ASAP. You will not regret it and I'll see you next time slash hear you. I won't hear you. You'll hear me.

Katie:                           32:59                Thanks Anna.

LINKS:

At Least You Look Good

At Least You Look Good bonus swag

Inner Glow Circle

Katie on the podcast when it was called Struggle to Success

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QUOTE OF THE POD:

"Create from wherever you are. Sometimes our most beautiful creations can come from our shitiest places."