Fantasy Book Club discussion
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A Song of Ice and Fire- Overrated?
I read the first three books of this series quite a long time ago when I was still young enough to find all the gritty, sadistic killing "realistic"and somewhat cool. Now, however, I can't find the desire to pick up the last couple of books, because I have grown weary of the "realistic fantasy" genre - my own phrase for it - that seems to have been growing for more than a decade now. Quite frankly, I'm a big boy, and I don't need to be shown murder/rape/torture over and over again to understand that life isn't fair, most people are more grey than black or white, and that sometimes good people get hurt in real life. It is like eating too much sugar; after a while, you get sick of it. And I'm sick of mindless killing/torture especially in Game of Thrones where everyone seems to get killed/tortured/raped every other chapter.
Wendell wrote: "I read the first three books of this series quite a long time ago when I was still young enough to find all the gritty, sadistic killing "realistic"and somewhat cool. Now, however, I can't find th..."^Like^
Wendell wrote: "I read the first three books of this series quite a long time ago when I was still young enough to find all the gritty, sadistic killing "realistic"and somewhat cool. Now, however, I can't find th..."on a more jokingly note (view spoiler) LOL
I've just come into this thread as well, and find that it is so far above others in its cerebral content! I'm almost terrified to post anything, for fear of, oh I don't know, seeming like a mental midget.( no offense Tyrion) (yes I know he's a dwarf) anyway I will just sit back and continue to read, and be in awe.Please....continue.....
Ada-Lee/ eyehavenofilter wrote: "I've just come into this thread as well, and find that it is so far above others in its cerebral content! I'm almost terrified to post anything, for fear of, oh I don't know, seeming like a mental ..."Oh heavens. Post away. None of us are geniuses.
I'm quite aware that life isn't all sunshine and roses, but life isn't all despair and horror either. My favorite kind of book shows both those sides, the nobility in people and the darkness.I had hopes initially that this is what the series would do, but I never found the positive side. I understand people love this series, but I just can't put it in the 'best ever' category because I feel it's just as one sided as a series that's all sweetness and light.
Brittany wrote: "Definitely coming in here late, but I was talking about "Game of Thrones" with my roommate and decided to Google "why do people like a song of ice and fire" because I do not understand why, and thi..."I would *really* like to *like* this post! ;)
I wouldnt say it is one-sided - just the good things are better hidden and as of how things were going towards the end of AFFC/ADWD timeline, things did look quite hopeful for some of chars - Bran, Dany or the seemingly dead T******** (spoiler name) and Varys surprised me in a good way as well... so I wouldnt say it is only negative, I would say that for some the negative stood out so strongly as to blot out whatever good there might be
While everyone's free to like an dislike whatever they want, and I certainly don't think ASOIAF is a series without a good many flaws... I'm kind of baffled by this mystique that's grown up around it, among both supporters and denigrators, that it's some fantastically "gritty" and "realistic" and "dark", even "sadistic" set of books. It really isn't. It's actually a pretty romanticised mediaeval fantasy. People say there's lots of sex. But in approximately 1,800,000 words, there's about five or six actual sex scenes. Plus a dozen cases of someone having sex in the background but it not being described, or a brief 'they had sex' or fade to black - Martin's actually pretty prudish about sex, and rarely shows much (which is a good thing, as he's traumatisingly bad at writing sex scenes).
People say all the characters get killed off. But there have been, what, (view spoiler) POV deaths (not including prologues), with maybe another one at the end of the fifth book but we'll have to wait and see? Plus another couple of important non-POV characters. In nearly two million words. It's a proportional significant-character kill-count below that of the Dragonlance Chronicles!
People say that everything goes wrong and it's all depressing and nothing good happens to any of the characters. But actually, character after character survives incident after incident that really should have been fatal, and lucks into opportunity after opportunity. Look where the main characters end up by the fifth book: (view spoiler). Apart from the antivillain, everyone who's survived (which is almost everyone) is in a considerably more promising position now than when they started. [Yes, two of these characters do seem to experience reverses near the end of the fifth book, but again, we'll have to wait and see]. They frankly don't even go through that much trauma, relatively speaking. I happen to have just read a Robin Hobb book - and I don't think any of Martin's characters go through a fraction of the physical or emotional trama that Fitz is put through. Even a more traditional fantasy writer like Feist - the deathcounts and suffering in Midkemia far outstrip those in Westeros (and the Empire trilogy go off the charts!). And certainly if you compare Martin to older classic writers - to the Silmarillion, say, or The Once and Future King - Martin comes out looking positively benign and optimistic.
People say there's gore and violence and sadism and... what fantasy novels have you been reading up to this!? Martin's mostly pretty delicate about the entrails and the gore, I think.
In fact, in every respect other than the safety of the main characters, Martin is less 'gritty', sexy and violent than an awful lot of Dungeons and Dragons novels. And in that one respect, he's still not on the level of much classic literature, both within the genre and outside it.
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And then there's the other side: I'm also always puzzled when I see people saying how horrible Westeros is, and how they already live with all this bad stuff and don't want to have to read about it too. Where do you people live, Tripoli? Gaza? I'm afraid to say I've not seen a single hacked-off limb in my life, nor been to a single brothel, nor seen a single undead abomination stalking toward me out of the snow. I haven't even been thrown out of a tower by an incestuous royal couple. I'm quite glad about all this, actually. But when I pick up Martin, I don't go 'oh, it's all just like real life, I can't cope with more of this'. No, I have a mostly happy and almost entirely safe life, and frankly I think a little vicarious running around being chased by monsters, or being outmanipulated by evil courtiers, is a pleasantly exciting form of escapism!
Wastrel wrote: "While everyone's free to like an dislike whatever they want, and I certainly don't think ASOIAF is a series without a good many flaws... I'm kind of baffled by this mystique that's grown up around ...":-) Good points, Wastrel.
Wastrel wrote: "While everyone's free to like an dislike whatever they want, and I certainly don't think ASOIAF is a series without a good many flaws... I'm kind of baffled by this mystique that's grown up around ..."I agree with all of this. I only read the first book, but I didn't find it any darker than any other fantasy book I've read, and I don't read much else but fantasy.
I also don't understand the vehemence on both sides. I get loving or hating a particular book or series, but I just don't understand some people getting offended when others share a differing opinion about a book. So someone loved the book and someone else didn't? Big deal. Someone else's feelings about it don't reflect upon anyone else or their choices.
Personally, I found Game of Thrones a bit boring. I probably would have stuck it out but GRRM takes too long to write his books. So did Robert Jordan and I gave up on WOT years ago too, around book 6 (though I own them all). I read GOT when it was first released, liked it but didn't love it, and moved in to other things. And it had nothing to do with the violence, the death, or the darkness. It has nothing to do with the complexity. I adore Robin Hobb, Raymond E. Feist, L.E. Modesitt, Jr., Tolkien, R.A. Salvatore, and many others. Steven Erickson's Malazan Book of the Fallen is one of my favorite series ever.
Honestly, I found GOT a bit boring. If the books were released closer together I would probably have given it more of a chance, but I don't have any desire to repeatedly reread them when new books are finally released (like I do with most series). I just don't care about the world, the story, or the characters enough. There are too many other books I'm more interested in and just not enough time to read them all. Maybe I'll revisit ASOIAF one day, maybe I won't. If I do, it won't happen until the series is finished.
Some people eat noodle salad by a lake
I hated the way great charactors are killed off. I get very involved with each charactor and feel somewhat betrayed when they die.
It's not the sheer quantity of the characters killed off that's the issue. It's the fact that the ones that people to tend to get emotionally attached to, are the ones most likely to meet an untimely end. Then when you've moved on to the next character, he/she dies too. That's what really gets some people riled up. I haven't read any of Robin Hobb's books yet so I can't compare or comment on your points. The way GRRM executed it is amazing, even if it's really annoying (to have your favorite characters killed off). As readers we all have that one guy who we root for or vehemently dislike, and an abrupt removal of them from the story line would have an emotional impact on us.Maybe it's because of the wrong preconception of people going into this story expecting a typical straightforward story where the seemingly "good" guys triumph over the "bad" (most of the time), that's caused this much of a love/hate relationship over the series as a whole.
As I've commented upthread, I didn't love this book, although I didn't hate it either (I say "it" because I only got through the first one). For me, it wasn't that the characters got killed off - because I didn't really care about any of them, so I didn't care when they got killed off. Yes, the graphic sex scene with the 13-year-old girl turned me off. I didn't care that much about the violence, though (hey, I read true crime) and I love unconventional stories, so it's not that either. And I started reading it with no expectations; I had no idea what it was about.But for me, the big thing was that it was boring. Many of the character arcs seemed to be returned to just because it was time, not because there was anything else for that character to pass on at the moment. I know some people have said, "well, that becomes more clear in future books", but why would I read those future books if I was bored by the first one?
Anyway, not hate, but not love either. Moved on to other stuff.
The consensus to the poster's question seems to be, "Yes, it is over-rated."Makes me wonder why it's so overwhelmingly popular then. Of course, I wonder why a lot of different things (reality TV, for one) are so wildly popular.
The Honey Boo-Boo of the fantasy world?
Hardly. One thing that does annoy me is people talking down to ASOIAF fans as though they're idiots just following whatever's popular and fashionable - actually, one reason the books are so popular is that they're able to appeal to people who aren't normally into epic fantasy - in particular to women and to more 'high-brow' readers.A few years ago, I ran a poll on the biggest ASOIAF fan forum, to find their top 100 genre books. The most popular author after Tolkien and Martin was Gene Wolfe. Followed by Bakker, Herbert, and Mieville. Orwell, Borges, LeGuin, Peake, Vance, Garcia Marquez and Vonnegut were all pretty popular. JK Rowling was on the list, but way below Lem, Saramago, Miller Jr, Valente, Atwood, Rushdie, or Homer.
From a little over 100 voters, over 600 works were nominated - and not a single person nominated a Twilight book.
I'm not saying this to say 'ooh, Game of Thrones fans are soooo smart'. Because you may well get the same results from fans of other books, and also no doubt a lot of ASOIAF fans are indeed just reading them because they're popular - particularly people who have started reading because of the show, which naturally has pushed the books toward a lot of people who normally wouldn't read fantasy.
No, my point is simply this: if you imagine that the people who like A Game of Thrones do so because they're stupid, or poorly read, or trend-followers, or lack taste and discernment, or in some way represent the low-brow and populist end of the market... then you're very seriously mistaken. And so, if you think that the book could only be liked by those readers, then I suggest you look more closely, because there's something you're missing.
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K.A.: I won't try to convince you they're not boring. They are slow-paced, they're epic fantasy. I would say, however, that the first book is the worst of them, and I found it quite boring until the twists near the end hooked me. I then read the second book, which wasn't thrilling but was compelling, and the third book is the peak of the series, and I remember that being pretty thrilling. It's a slow build series. Although I entirely respect that you may not feel it worth the investment of time and energy - to be honest, if I were pressed to start the series today, I probably wouldn't make the effort to read it. [I had more reading time back then, and less awareness of better books. I don't regret having read it - it's a good series, even if I don't think it's a great first book - but I probably wouldn't take a chance on it today]
I think people are getting the wrong idea because someone created a thread about ripping apart a series, so a bunch of people who agreed joined in, thereby making it look like everyone agrees. In my opinion, most of the people who disagree are simply choosing to take the high road and let people grip about it without chiming in.
Ya know, these books are popular FIRST because people loved them. I don't feel, in any way, that ASoIaF readers are on any bandwagon. GRRM writes an addictive story. I recognize that. I just don't like it. (I am still mad at Joss Whedon for Serenity . . . but I digress . . .) It is nice, when a story reaches the amount of love that this tale has to find a group that agrees with you! Every time you mention you love fantasy, this series (and WoT) come up. I would never try to dissuade anyone from reading a series that he or she loved. (Even Twilight . . . or 50 Shades . . . ) I think the point is always to READ. Doesn't matter what!
Sonja wrote: "Ya know, these books are popular FIRST because people loved them. I don't feel, in any way, that ASoIaF readers are on any bandwagon. GRRM writes an addictive story. I recognize that. I just don't ..."Well said.
I think people are getting the wrong idea because someone created a thread about ripping apart a series, so a bunch of people who agreed joined in, thereby making it look like everyone agrees.
I don't think the thread was meant to rip it apart. Just shed some light on why it's been embraced so well and often by so many people and if such treatment is unfounded. I don't think that can really be answered because it's a matter of personal taste. I like plenty of books (the Soldier Son trilogy by Robin Hobb, for ex.) which people routinely skewer. I know I'm in the minority when it comes to the Thrones books b/c it is so popular.
I do think GRRM is an incredible writer and I give him huge kudos for breaking new ground in the genre. In the end, though, the material of this series just wasn't for me.
Sonja wrote: "Ya know, these books are popular FIRST because people loved them. I don't feel, in any way, that ASoIaF readers are on any bandwagon. GRRM writes an addictive story. I recognize that. I just don't ..."Well said.
I agree that this thread is currently slanted toward those who don't care for ASOIF. If you only read this thread it will look like most believe the series is overrated, when that is obviously not borne out by the sales and popularity. I do not think that those who like the series and choose not to reply here are taking any high road by not participating.
I'm really tired of the claims on both sides that certain books are only read by those of certain intellectual capacity. Plenty of us who enjoy long, complex epic fantasies are also quite happy to read lighter, less involved stories. Quite a few people are equally capable of enjoying the Illiad, ASOIF, Mistborn, the Malazan Book of the Fallen, Tolkien, Wheel of Time, etc., as well as Paolini's Inheritance books, David Eddings, and, yes, even Twilight (gasp!).
☃❄ ~Thena~ ❄☃ wrote: "Sonja wrote: "Ya know, these books are popular FIRST because people loved them. I don't feel, in any way, that ASoIaF readers are on any bandwagon. GRRM writes an addictive story. I recognize that...."Well, my intent was never to say that people who like the books are in any way wrong. I just explained why -I- didn't like them. I think tastes in books are very individual things. No one would lambaste me because I don't happen to like eating fish. :)
Jute wrote: "Well, my intent was never to say that people who like the books are in any way wrong. I just explained why -I- didn't like them."Yep. We just wanted a place where we didn't feel like the odd man out. Never EVER intended to dis anyone who LIKED them. :D
I'm more than a bit late to this. I liked the series as I read it--the first three books. I have no interest to read the fourth and fifth novels. As I see it, Martin jumped the gun and killed his own series by trying to retain his air of ruthless abandon. I have no desire to wade through another two thousand pages of shitty (am I allowed to use that word here?) B-characters for a few tiny glimpses at the two remaining characters I enjoy.
Sonja wrote: "Jute wrote: "Well, my intent was never to say that people who like the books are in any way wrong. I just explained why -I- didn't like them."Yep. We just wanted a place where we didn't feel like..."
Seriously? Calling the series the literary equivalent of Honey Boo Boo, saying that the series could only be liked if you were still 'young enough' to find sadism 'cool', comparisons to Twilight and Eragon and 50 shades of grey, saying the fact of its popularity is 'mad', saying that its popularity is proof that lots of people are 'stupid'... you don't think anyone's been 'dissing' fans?
Omg! All this... Love, hate, rage., (not to mention spamming my mailbox, lol) What ever it is, it sure is passionate. I got to finally start reading this series!
I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest, as I love ASOIAF and don't really understand why someone would hate it. And I wanted to understand, I really, really did. Some (very few) posters here have given fairly cogent arguments as to why they didn't like it, and it seems like the majority just didn't like the style, and that's fine.But let's be clear, here. Certain people have complained about stereotypes, tropes, and predictability. Absolute nonsense. These things are exactly what this series openly defies. Anyone who suggests otherwise is plainly just being contrarian.
Some have complained about the sex. Why is it more acceptable to portray violence than sex? I find this attitude baffling, and more than a little disturbing.
Now, there are those who have whined about the level of violence. This gripe I understand a bit more...but here's the thing. Fantasy fiction tends towards violence. It's escapism, and it's the closest most of us will ever get to this sort of thing. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative, but it's somewhat inherent to the genre, so one would have thought you'd be used to this sort of thing by now.
And then there's the pacing of the story, which I get. Slower paced, character-driven stories are not for everyone. I'm confused, though, because I'm seeing love for Robin Hobb on this thread as well, and she writes a similar style of slow paced, character-driven story.
Anyway, that's my two bits.
Wastrel wrote: " . . . saying that its popularity is proof that lots of people are 'stupid'... you don't think anyone's been 'dissing' fans?"Um, yea, well. Ok, *I* never meant it that way? :D [ducks as she passes olive branch]
I, for one - and it may be a group of one, frequently feel insulted and looked down upon because I do not enjoy these books or the wheel of time. (And, then people go off on why these books are so awesome. Typically, those are the things that cause me to dislike them.) I could handle this, but then they dis the books I *do* like saying they are ya or tropes or tripe or whatever. So, I find it interesting that others are saying the same thing here (I also feel (and you may actually know this) that it is not true - but I have learned to read over the top of it so much that I didn't even NOTICE! I apologize. In my oh so humble opinion, to each his own. I won't dis your books if you won't dis mine!
:D
I think the problem here, after reading the past few posts, is that the people who love the series are trying to justify, and convert, and convince, and the people who hate the series are trying to justify, and convert, and convince. I doubt anyone's comment is going to change anyone else's opinion, so why bother? You like the series for your own reasons, or you hate the series for your own reasons. In the end, it is still your opinion, nothing more. You can't piss on others' opinions and expect them to change their own. It's just not going to happen.
Some have complained about the sex. Why is it more acceptable to portray violence than sex? I find this attitude baffling, and more than a little disturbing."Ya know, I have often wondered this. But, as a mom with young kids, I found it to be very true. As a mom with older kids, I find sex just plain embarrassing to watch with my kiddos. Or my parents. It is a generation thing.
The best explanation I can determine (and, please, forgive me if any of this sounds naive) is that sex is more personal. And private. And, for most of us, not a group activity.
As to the violence, I think it isn't *real* to most of us. We haven't experienced it. So, maybe, just maybe, we don't understand the depth of it. As one who just spent a day at the "Die Hard" marathon, watching all the blow ups and kick butts, and laughed frequently at the implausibility of a great deal of it, this really hit home to me.
Dunno if this makes sense, but it is the best I can determine.
Sonja wrote: "Ya know, I have often wondered this. But, as a mom with young kids, I found it to be very true. As a mom with older kids, I find sex just plain embarrassing to watch with my kiddos. Or my parents. It is a generation thing..."I'm not sure it's generational, I'd rather not have either parents or kids around for something that's meant to be sexual titillation, because I'm not a Lannister. Parents/kids get to watch that on their own, no involvement from me and vice versa.
However, that only applies to TV series and movies, and not books (unless you're reading out loud, I suppose). I don't really see why reading about it would be a problem. Although as mentioned by Wastrel, in the case of ASoIaF there isn't really much sex happening on page, I think the HBO series's frequent use of it has coloured people's memory of the books.
Bryan wrote: "I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest, as I love ASOIAF and don't really understand why someone would hate it. And I wanted to understand, I really, really did. Some (very f..."I've never complained about the sex, the violence, the 'tropes' or any of the things you've mentioned. My dislike is based in the unremitting darkness as I see it.
In the first book, every gesture of kindness or mercy seemed to be met with horrible consequences. (view spoiler)
Nobility isn't celebrated in this book, it's trampled.
I'm not trying to convince you to see my way, I'm trying to explain my takeaways from reading this. The people who love the books, obviously, do not see what I see in them. I'm not ashamed to admit that I like happy endings, or at least mostly happy.
I love Robin Hobb's books. Although they are often painful to read, in the end there is joy even if it's bittersweet. I'd prefer sometimes that she not drag her characters through so much, but I'm always confident that in the end they will celebrate the things I feel are good in humanity.
Jute wrote: "Bryan wrote: ". . .I'm not ashamed to admit that I like happy endings, or at least mostly happy.Me too! And, I like characters for whom I can root. I lose people in my own life far too often, and I read to escape that. I want the characters I love to be with me always. And, I want them to be happy. I am very irritated with the current generation of entertainment that insists things must be *real*. Why?
I love Robin Hobb's books. Although they are often painful to read, in the end there is joy even if it's bittersweet. I'd prefer sometimes that she not drag her characters through so much, but I'm always confident that in the end they will celebrate the things I feel are good in humanity. ."
I simply cannot read her. I will be in tears for weeks.
Bryan wrote: "I'm confused, though, because I'm seeing love for Robin Hobb on this thread as well, and she writes a similar style of slow paced, character-driven story."Since I mentioned Hobb... The difference for me is the sheer ruthlessness.
Hobb creates some wonderful characters and then takes you on a journey with them. (Butterflies are flying around my head right now)
As many have already said, GRRM has some great characters as well, but he kills off the few likeable ones far too often and too soon. Hard to go anywhere with a character when he's lying in a pool of his own blood with his head chopped off. :-)
Bryan wrote: "I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest, as I love ASOIAF and don't really understand why someone would hate it. And I wanted to understand, I really, really did. Some (very f..."I love Robin Hobb's books. I love Steven Erickson's books. I love Glen Cook's books. Obviously, I have no issues with dark, gritty, violent, complex, or slower pacing.
But I have to admit WoT dragged on and on. Robert Jordan was in desperate need of a good editor who would have put a stop to his rambling. I was done after 5 or 6 books. I may revisit the series one day, but only because I adore Brandon Sanderson and want to see what he did with it.
While epic fantasy and space opera has been my first love since I was a child, I also read UF and PNR when I feel the urge (though I'm pickier than most I know and care more about the story than the romance), so have no problem with graphic sex. I have also read and enjoyed quite a few of the books that many in this group like to disparage for being lesser, for one reason or another. I enjoyed the Inheritance books by Paolini, as well as the Tamuli, the Balgariad, the Mallorean, Terry Brooks, the Sword of Truth, etc. Even Twilight and some other YA books.
I am a fan of all sub-genres of fantasy, which I suppose makes me a non-stereotypical woman. ;-) Sometimes I want a deeper, more involved book, sometimes I want something lighter and more fun. It just depends on the mood I'm in.
*shrugs* GRRM just doesn't do much for me. When I finished A Game of Thrones I decided I liked the book but didn't care if I never finished the series. By the time the years passed and the second one was released I had forgotten all about it and moved on to other things (and I had given away the book long before). Now there are finally five books available and I just don't care enough to start again. I simply have no interest in the series.
I figure it's similar to the reactions to the Malazan Book of the Fallen. There are passionate people on both sides of that series. Personally, I love those books so much it baffles me sometimes to see the seething hate some have for them. But I know the series can be tough to get into. If you can't immerse yourself in the world and just let yourself be taken along for the ride and accept that confusion is the normal state of affairs while reading, the wait for everything to come together can be too much. I annoys some people and bores others. And it is dark and graphic and that can be too much for some people too.
I have a question. Even though I do not like it, I have never found this series to be trite, stereotypical or predictable (ok, well, I can cynically predict that ever one will die. Please forgive me!). So, for those who DO, why? The reason I ask is, I read the first book when it was first published. It was definitely the first book I read that could be considered "dark" fantasy. At least by me. Cuz, I hate death.
So, I wonder if GRRM didn't set off a bunch of copy cats. And, therefore, if the work that is considered stereotypical isn't actually the leader of the pack rather than a follower. He certainly writes at a slow enough pace that other authors have written whole series, heck more than one whole series, in the length of time it has taken him to write 5 books.
Note, please, I am truly interested in the opinions of others - not trying to start an argument - just a discussion. Cuz, y'all made me think! (And, I guess, in the end, thinking something overrated is a totally different thing from not liking something.)
Jesse wrote: "I think the problem here, after reading the past few posts, is that the people who love the series are trying to justify, and convert, and convince, and the people who hate the series are trying to..."That is a very mature point of view, bravo sir!
Coming very late to this party but I finally found a home for my dislike of "Game of Thrones". I will be honest, I did not read every 143 posts so here it goes as to why I agree that its Over Rated. First i am going to list what i didn't like and explain why after:
1) unlikable characters
2) pointless violence
3) too many POVs
4) too much description when its not needed
5) age of the characters
6) too dark
7) too many characters
1) to be honest the only characters I liked were Jon, Ayra and Ned. I will use Sansa as an example. She's a vapid princess with no redeeming qualities (as of book one). she's a clueless bimbo who only cares about her looks and getting what she wants. She is extremely self centered. A classic princess archetype of "I am better than you so you must do whatever I say when ever i say it because Im a princess!" and that is all before the whole Joffrey business! she sees nothing but is grandeur when it is clear to every other human being that he is a little shit that deserves to be spanked or smacked upside the head a few times as well as being one of the most evil little s***'s I have ever read. and she somehow loves him! but yes I know teenagers right? that's how they act right? gah, if I wanted that I would just get work as a middle school teacher.
2) I think we all have hashed this one out. i'm good for violence but its got to have a point and Martin takes the violence and then tries to up it to make it more gritty, more lifelike. it comes off feeling fake and only there to make your gut twist. it just feels over-the-top.
3)Book one has 8 POV's. Book two 9 povs, book three 10, book four 12, book five 18 povs! The more points of view the author adds the more the story gets dragged out. WoT and SoT are perfect examples of this. You buy the next book thinking "I wanna know what happens to Jon" and then end up reading a 1000 page book that only has less than a hundred pages on the character you are about.
4) Every time they enter a dinner Martin has to explain what every last dish on the table contains. Unless someone is going to jump out of a cake I don't really care too much on what they are eating
5) the starks are all (i'm pretty sure) under the age of 15! and they are dying deaths like that?! I get brutality but seriously he goes too far. especially since a lot of these people are under 15 (chick across the ocean is 13 and is raped by a man leading an army and her brother? I get rape but leave children out of it)
6) overall, i find the entire series overly dark. Darker than it needs to be. and it only seems to be that dark because its "gritty and Real." Eh, call me old fashioned but I am not into reading something where I know all of the characters I like are just going to end up violently dead.
7) too many characters. I need an index just to keep them straight!
I read it and it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
On a side note, I think it would make a great tv show as it seems to be written like a tv show heavy with characters.
On another side note, I think if Jon had had his own series based on his story on the wall it would have been something I would have loved. The wall and the Nightwatch are a cool idea but it doesn't get any of the attention it needs to make it a truly great storyline. If it was its own book it could have been awesome rather than just cool.
ASoIaF started out promising but it fails to capture me because I know, at the end of this book that it is going to be another Wheel of Time or Sword of Truth where the reason i am reading the book is either killed off or "barely there".
Hey again, all you ASiIaF lovers/haters and those in between. I gotta tell you that you inspired me to finally start reading this and so far i love it!But I can see right away, its not for everyone. And if I where to not like it and forced my self to read it...whole, I can see where all the hate is coming from, its a HUGE book. I imagine I would be physically hurting by the end of it:)
I got a little bit tired through the last book. So i stopped. But i am too curious about the way some characters will develop, so i'll continue reading later.
I can't say I hated it but I understand what Lilyan is saying. With the exception of the dwarf, the characters lack a sense of agency. They're more like archetypes on autopilot. There's a stiffness to the prose too, which along with the general high seriousness had me riffing it in my head as I read. And I gotta say that it's not anywhere near as dark as people claim. It would take too long for me to explain this in depth so I'll just say if you want to see dark, read Michel Houellebecq.
It is an interesting story though. Especially the frost zombies beyond the wall. The miniseries is an improvement as it adds more depth to the characters and does better, more organic expostion.
It is an interesting story though. Especially the frost zombies beyond the wall. The miniseries is an improvement as it adds more depth to the characters and does better, more organic expostion.
Jesse wrote: "I doubt anyone's comment is going to change anyone else's opinion, so why bother? You like the series for your own reasons, or you hate the series for your own reasons. In the end, it is still your opinion, nothing more. You can't piss on others' opinions and expect them to change their own. It's just not going to happen. "Æi, haí
I gave up on this book once before, said my opinion and people attacked... well, it does not matter now, not all are able to accept there´re those who just do not think the same, whether the reason. Some comments actually made me interested in the book over again, so I´ve decided to give it another chance.
Allt í lagi, before I pick it up again, I have one question. Would appreciate if someone could answer it.
Getur þú sagt.. should one start with the 1st book or it´s fine if I start with, let´s say, 3rd one? Is the story predictable so you can, reading the book one, tell what the 2nd one´ll be like? It´s important to me. I have serious problems with this. I tend to guess the last book´ story even before finishing the first. it happened with Lord of the Rings and this is a good trilogy. Anyone experienced the same with Game of Thrones? I´ll read it, just want to know should i read the 1st before or after the middle book
Já, "YA books" made me bitter, but let´s not forget "adults" are those that write them.
I have to write this:
If you can´t comprehend "my opinion", just don´t reply. I deleted too many of my comments in this group because of people who ignored the fact that words in particular comment were just "my opinion". And those who find smart and wise to tell me my opinion is "rubbish" again ... I won´t ignore it this time.
seinna, bye
I may not be the right person to answer because I also stopped reading this series. I did read up to th third book. You would miss a lot of storyline if you skip any books, so I'd say you should read from the beginning.
:)
This is why I use wikipedia. There is a plot summary on there where I can find out what characters GRRM kills off in each book and how bloody he does it without having to actually read about it.
Icelandic->English:Æi, haí= I believe this means "Oh, Hi" but the dictionary had problems with it.
Allt í lagi= OK or All right
Já = Yes
In case anyone else was slightly confused.
Oh I thought those were peoples names she was resonding to. Apparently I need to read back and figure out what she is talking about
I think you should read from the start, because the plot is really complex and interwoven and you would be missing a lot of intricate details, connotations...clues and the like. The books are brimming with them. Also you really must read from 1st book because some of the characters and events there are like, defining the whole series. You could read about it on wiki, but it would be a pore imitation and not have any of the books emotional charge. And that is mayor part of the series.
I only suggest the wiki if a person doesnt want to read it but wants to know what happens. To me the biggest emotion I got out of this series is disgust. It literally gives me a bad taste in my mouth. That's why I wiki it.
Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Game of Thrones #1 (other topics)The Emperor's Blades (other topics)
Dying of the Light (other topics)
Sandkings (other topics)
Portraits of His Children (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Neal Stephenson (other topics)Ayn Rand (other topics)
I was looking for something still being written to get into. I like epic stories. It seemed perfect. But after book 3 I just couldn't take it anymore. I read book 4 because I got the 4 book set. But man, nothing happened at all in that book. Could have been 100 pages. Oh I skipped the Island people and those ones from the southern region. Way too late to introduce them.