A Song of Ice and Fire- Overrated?

[Lilyan]

You know, it's really starting to bother me that I am apparantley the only person I know who has despised A Game of Thrones from the bottom of my heart.
I feel there is something wrong here, the books popularity is mad. What am I missing?! I couldn't even give it a second shot, it's that terrible.
Can someone please reassure me that I am not the only one that really disliked this book!?

[Tracy]

Since I'm a huge fan of both the novels and the series, I'm curious to know just what it is that has engendered such emotion in you to express such an attitude toward ASoIaF? Please know that I'm not criticizing your opinion. I'm honestly curious to know why you feel so strongly in the negative toward these books, specifically. I've not encountered anyone else who has expressed such an opinion toward ASoIaF and I really want to know just what it was that encouraged your strong feelings. Can you elaborate ... please?

[Lilyan]

That's whats bothering me, that everyone I express my severe dislike towards the book to does not understand what I'm talking about. Well, I read it about a year or so ago and the story is already fading, but I just found it extremely boring. The characters felt dull, the plot fell flat, the writing didn't grab me. I just could not get into it! I remember it took me about a month to finish the book and it felt like the biggest obligation EVER. and then I come on GR and it's apparantley the god of all fantasy and I'm thinking.. "but, what's wrong with me!?"
And I mean I understand, people have different tastes, but I'm starting to feel like the only person in the world that did not fare well with this book!

[Kris43]

All I can say is that at least you read it, so you have a right to a opinion, positive or negative. I can respect that. It would be a whole different thing if you disliked it on principle without ever bothering to read the thing.

The thing is that you cant like everything. A book can be a 'perfect' example of literary ideal, but there is something about it that pushes the wrong buttons in you....so you don't like it. That's ok.

When it comes to ASoIaF, I cant say how it is, because I never read it. There are books that are wildly popular that i don't like, so I can understand your dilemma.

[Hayley]

Congrats on perservering with a book you disliked so vehemently - I hate it when that happens but you feel you have to finish the book!

Although I personally am a fan of the first book (not yet carried on with the series) I can happily state that I know a good few people who would not get on with it. This isn't to say that there's something 'wrong' with them, just that it wouldn't be their cup of tea, and that's fine.

Everyone has different opinions on what a great book should be - and sometimes they differ from the rest of the world. Just be happy that you can say you tried & it didn't work :)

[Pickle]

i watched the first 3 episodes of the TV series and couldnt believe this is so highly rated, it was something i might have enjoyed as a spotty virginal teenager but as an adult it left me shaking my head.

I have no plans to read the books after watching that cheeseyness.

Rant over :)

[Hayley]

I've not watched more than the first episode of the series but, as with books turned into films, I tend to go with judging them separately as there is never going to be a way to get everything written on paper to come across through screen. Though that's just my opinion :)

[Traci]

Not everyone loves them, don't worry. Some readers find them too dark and bleak.
I fall somewhere in the middle. I like them, and rate them high, but they will never become my all time favorite fantasy. My opinion is they're not fantasy enough.
I can see how they might be boring. But I like historical novels, and strange as it sounds that's how I think of ASoIaF.
Plus the characters are great, but if you don't like anti heroes, and grey heroes/villains that might be another problem.

[Sandra]

I enjoyed A Game of Thrones well enough,, but got frustrated and bored with #2. Then I found out about the long break before #5 finally came out and decided to wait to read any more. Meh. As for the TV show, I watched Season 1 but have decided not to bother with Season 2, as HBO trashes it up and doesn't spend enough time on the characters that interest me most.

[Valerie]

I agree, Sandra. HBO does tend to go for the shock factor to attract viewers (actually, so does GRRM), but what keeps me tuning in is the quality of the cast. Sean Bean (Season 1), Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey, Maisie William, just to name a few. Spot on casting as far as I'm concerned.
But, I can also easily see where the gritty realism of the book and the show will not be the cup of tea of all.

[Marilyn]

I have not read the books but am thoroughly enjoying the show. I agree that the actors and actresses are spot on and I like the intrique and plotting. I have been told by GRRM fans that the books are better than the show but I am still not planning to read the books in the near future, at least until final book is close to being published.

[Tz]

I am a huge fan of the series and also the show for a number of reasons, the biggest ones being the characters and the plot. That aside, I can certainly relate to feeling that widely acclaimed series are overrated. I found this to be true for Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy. I suffered through the first two books finding them increasingly dull with characters I truly did not care for or about, and finally resorted to looking up what happened in the third book on Wikipedia.
But most people love Hobb and her books. I guess some series don't work for individuals, for you it's a song of ice of fire, for me Farseer trilogy, and I'm sure everyone else can point to a personal example of their own

[K.A.]

Lilyan, you're not alone. I read Game of Thrones and did not like it. It was well-written, and the author obviously spent a lot of time "in his world", but it felt less like a story and more like following the characters around while they lived their lives. The multiple points of view were not only confusing, in many cases they were unnescessary. The book was chock-full of steretypes and tropes. I didn't particularly care about any of the characters (perhaps because I spent so little time with any one of them). A number of the scenes were so unlikley that I had to quit for a while (scenes with the children were particularly unlikley and stereotypical). I gave it 3 stars for quality of writing and world development, but I can't say I enjoyed it. As far as the plot, I was left thinking "what plot?" Given the length of the book, not much happened. So don't worry - you are not alone!

[Igor]

You're not alone Lilyan. I too can't get past first few chapters. After first try I tried watching series which are not bad to be honest but still on my 2nd try I simply couldn't get through... Something's missing there and that something is precisely the reason why I'm reading fantasy.
For example my latest reads were The Way of Kings, Mistborn, The Malazan Book of the Fallen (oh Malazan is waaaaay above Martin in my opinion) and those books were like tornado blasting through my head and I immeditely got hooked on...
Still I think I will go for the 3rd try once I'm finished with few more series I want to read.

[Sean]

I read half of the first one when I was in high school and got really bored, so I dropped it and started reading The Dresden Files instead. Now that all of my friends are reading them and telling me I need to give them another shot, I will probably attempt them again but am not holding out high hopes.

[Sean]

The cynical side of me instantly responded: Because people are stupid.

Fifty Shades of Grey and Twilight also have a gazillion people reading them. :)

[Tz]

I had the same thought...
Let's not compare those though. Different genres. Zayne makes a very fair point though, sometimes books are quite difficult to commit to, especially 1000 page epics, and without this commitment it will not be the same experience

[Terri]

I agree with Zane - so much of what draws me to the books (and the show) are the machinations of the characters, the greed and ruthlessness of power.... I love the different POVs myself. I like the different voices and sides of the events.

[Razmatus]

K.A. wrote: "Lilyan, you're not alone. I read Game of Thrones and did not like it. It was well-written, and the author obviously spent a lot of time "in his world", but it felt less like a story and more like f..."

as for "unnecessary", I will use a paraphrase of something S.Erikson said in an interview regarding such expressions - advice is cheap, but vast majority of it doesnt survive the closer scrutiny of if it is indeed valid in certain cases... series like this one have a lot of details some readers dont notice or think "unnecesary" or "redundant" or "nonsenical", that they disregard, and then they dont get some things further up the plot cos they didnt pay attention

stereotypes and tropes? I'm sorry, ASOIAF is a lot of things, but not THAT... is Tyrion your usual cute and stupid dwarf or one whose looks deceive and whose wits are as sharp as a sword? are knights there heroes who defend the weak and poor or just highly-armored bastards who raid and rape? do the lords care for their subjects or dont give a **** about them? do the good guys always win, or...are there even clearly good guys at all? are the dragons there majestic beasts or gigantic unbound monsters who seem to revel in destruction?

you may not like the series, but it is anything but stereotypical... and as much as Erikson may best Martin in so many things, Martin is still a bit above Erikson when it comes to the extent to which he does exploit the POV narrative

[K.A.]

Sorry Raz, but there are tons of stereotypes in Game of Thrones. Perhaps you can't see them but I can. I'm not the only one who thinks this; read a few of the reviews.

And there's no "advice" in here - Lilyan asked if others have a similar opinion, and I do. I stated why.

As far as your "tropes" paragraph - I'm confused. Are you trying to point out all the tropes in GoT?

[Wastrel]

Lilyan wrote: "You know, it's really starting to bother me that I am apparantley the only person I know who has despised A Game of Thrones from the bottom of my heart.
I feel there is something wrong here, the bo..."

Really don't understand your view.

I think A Game of Thrones has faults.

The prose style is never brilliant, and is particularly bad early on, when Martin is clearly coming to terms with the faux-medieval voice. [That said, it's bad only by contrast with good prose - compared to many popular books it's perfectly fine, and as the series goes on I think it becomes mostly unobjectionable (apart from the bad habit of repeating certain words or phrases too often). By fantasy standards it's not bad, and includes some good turns of phrase (including some quite funny dialogue now and then)].

The characterisation, while complex, engaging, and sympathetic, is not particularly sharp or delicate at first. The characters are built up over time through their thoughts and actions - he's not one of those writers who makes their characters instantly vivid through prose skill alone.

The setting is pretty dull and cliche.

The plot, while fantastic, does take a while to get going.

----------

So, I understand anyone who struggles to get through the first book - I did, repeatedly, although by the end I was hooked by the plot and the characters.

I understand how people could think it over-rated - although of course that depends on how highly you rate it before reading it. I can understand thinking that it's not very literary in execution, or feeling that the pace was a bit slow, or disliking the lack of a clear, morally unambiguous, uniting narrative.

But "despising it from the bottom of [your] heart"? - What am I missing here? Your description of it makes me think that you found it a little dry, but despising it from the bottom of your heart? Huh? I don't understand.

[I'm surprised you felt the plot fell flat, since that's the greatest virtue of the series, I think. I found the plot complex and unpredictable. Some of the characters are a bit more nuanced than in most pulp fantasy, and I suppose if you're used to simple characters in primary colours, you might find these people a little 'dull'. I agree that the writing shouldn't grab you. In my opinion, all three things get better with later books - but my idea of 'better' might differ from yours]

[Alu]

Zayne wrote: "Oh you guys are so silly :). A Song of Ice and FIre is definitely not overrated. Lilyan, the plot is a game of thrones. It's about a bunch of people fighting to rule a kingdom. Now if you're not in..."

I absolutely love ASoIaF but I feel some of your points are a little unfair to Lilyan. In my opinion she gave it a fair shot. She gave it a fair shot. Reading the first book in a series from front to back qualifies as justification for an opinion. Yes it is a big political story and to some it might not be what they're interested in. I don't think she should need to read more and more of the same thing if she already knows it's not what she's interested in.

I know a few people who don't like it as well, but I understand the reasons. For me I love the slow pace of it. It allows me to get really invested in characters. It just depends on your specific interests.

Kudos to you Lilyan for reading the whole thing and forming a valid opinion.

[Ena]

I'm ambivalent about this discussion.I read first two books of ASoIaF. After second book, I decided I cannot go back to Martin's world, probably ever again. I tried to follow the tv show and cannot past a couple of episodes. Problem between me and series is purely personal taste. I don't mind that a lot of people love the books. For the fans of the books; I'm happy for you that you have a great and long series you enjoy. I enjoyed Hobb's Elderlings universe immensely and I imagine readers that don't like her universe must be feeling similar to what I feel toward ASoIaF.

Personal gripes below:

For books, there are some parts that I quite liked, and a lot of parts I didn't care at the time POV decided to change and POV changes... a lot.

Ever since gritty become fashion thanks to ASoIaF, I'm suffering greatly :D Series are too gruesome, too bleak. I love Starks, I wish them to have usual fantasy bliss, not the torture they receive from Martin. If one day Hobb adopts the poor Stark family and gives them their own three trilogies, I would love to read that. I know she would make me miserable while putting Starks through harsh trials but her trials would be better than Martin's sadistic grit, for the sake of grit. Martin's stile of grit feels too forceful to me. I can hear him laughing " Mwahahah...Because I can!" at every twist.

So, this series is something I love to hate in my own little universe, not because they are bad, but they are so very opposite taste than I usually like.

[Razmatus]

K.A. wrote: "Sorry Raz, but there are tons of stereotypes in Game of Thrones. Perhaps you can't see them but I can. I'm not the only one who thinks this; read a few of the reviews.

And there's no "advice" in ..."

then give at least a couple examples... or maybe our understanding of what a stereotype is is different? for me it is portraying a character in a fashion where some type of character is shown as having "typical" traits for their kind

and as far as I checked, I didnt find those - e.g. Tyrion, he uses the stereotypes other characters think him to be to take advantage (using his wits when ppl think him stupid, judging by his appearance)... or the Hound - he is a knight, but he is far from the perfect portrayal of a knight, and by his appearance, he should be pure evil, but then, what of the things he does to shield Sansa from harm at times?

or are women stereotypically portrayed in this book, or series? like weak beings that need protection? maybe I didnt notice but wasnt it Sansa's chapters where he systematically laughed such stereotypes in the face?

so you may not like his writing, but stereotypes and tropes? thats like saying Erikson isnt any different from some pulp fantasy novel

[Lilyan]

Sean wrote: "The cynical side of me instantly responded: Because people are stupid.

Fifty Shades of Grey and Twilight also have a gazillion people reading them. :)"

Sean <3

[Lilyan]

Wastrel wrote: "Lilyan wrote: "You know, it's really starting to bother me that I am apparantley the only person I know who has despised A Game of Thrones from the bottom of my heart.
I feel there is something wro..."

Very harsh, right? I dont even know why I hate it so much. I think I just had a really misreable time reading it.
BTW, I'm extremely anti bashing any author/book/review on goodreads, what with all the madness going on lately, so I hope noone regards this post as that. I'm simply baffled by my own dislike for the series, and was looking for some diverse opinions to see whether I should pick it up again.

[Lilyan]

I've tried reading The first law, after reading ASoIaF, I understand that is also gritty fantasy, and I really enjoyed it. I finished the whole series, wasn't too happy with the ending, but I don't have any issues with morbid realistic fantasy. And I actually like the diff. POV format Martin uses.
So I guess, the book just.. bored me.

[Tracy]

After reading all that everyone who's responded to this topic has written, I'm far too incensed to respond to anything. In all honesty, I cannot believe that such vehemence and such polarity have been expressed regarding a FANTASY SERIES! FANTASY NOVELS! FANTASY READING!

[S.J.]

I didn't have a problem with the writing style in this series and the first few books really grabbed me. So did some of the characters...Tyrion for example is one of my favourites. I did have to put it down though because the story eventually became too dark and bleak for me to want to finish it. In my opinion, that is not a fault of the author, just a personal preference of mine. I don't enjoy reading content that disturbs me. I haven't read Dances with Dragons and I doubt that I ever will.

[Snarktastic Sonja]

Nope. Can't stand this series. For a variety of reasons. Don't like the fact that he wanders from character to character - drives me crazy. Don't like all the death and destruction. I do not read to be sad.

But, mostly, this:

Ena said, "Martin's sadistic grit, for the sake of grit. Martin's stile of grit feels too forceful to me. I can hear him laughing " Mwahahah...Because I can!" at every twist."

And, would someone please explain to me why in order for something to be "literary" it must be difficult to understand, hard to follow, and require interpretation by those smarter than I? I do NOT get this. Why can't it be just an ordinary pick up and take off on a journey?

Also, I think there are a lot of people out there who love it because everyone else loves it.

:D

[Wastrel]

Literary things don't have to be difficult to read or require interpretation - nobody would deny, I think, that Dickens or Shakespeare are pretty literary, despite being easy reads for mass consumption. [OK, Shakespeare sometimes needs explanation, but that's because language and pop culture have changed, not because he was 'difficult' all along]

Rather, literary things CAN be difficult to read, and CAN require interpretation. If a book is easy to read, it can be bad or good, literary or non-literary; but if a book is difficult to read it must be either bad, or else good but literary. Because being literary (i.e. having more to it that just the superficial) is the only excuse for being hard to read (i.e. not being superficially good).

I don't see how this applies to ASOIAF, though, since the series is both easy to read and a long way from 'literary'. It's pulp fiction for a mass audience. [Although from what I've heard of Twilight, ASOIAF is considerably better and less populist]


Ena: I'm surprised by your reaction, since Hobb and Martin fans have a very large amount of overlap. In particular, if you find Martin sadistic, presumably you must find Hobb terrifyingly psychotic? She not only puts her characters through far worse things than Martin does, but she seems to describe the bad things in a lot more lingering detail.

For instance, compare Tyrion to Fitz. Tyrion is (view spoiler)[injured in battle, has his nose cut off (hide spoiler)]. Fitz is (view spoiler)[psychologically and magically abused, leaving permanent mental scars and inabilities, and mind-controlled, then near-fatally-poisoned, drowned, and beaten, leaving him permanently scarred, with brain damage that results in debilitating and uncontrollable seizures, then imprisoned, frozen, tortured, poisoned again, beaten to death, resurrected into a corpse, left mindless and bestial for several months, substantially mind-controlled several more times, oh I forgot to mention multiple war wounds along the way, then captured, beaten, then almost dies of thirst, imprisoned again (was he beaten that time? I'm guessing he was, but don't remember; his only friend at the time is raped at this point), shot in the back leaving him in a coma and then incapacitated for ages, driven almost insane by magic, injured a few more times, by the end of which he's said to have the body of an old man despite being only about thirty, various further bruises and injuries, culminating in a should-have-been-fatal agonisingly painful sword through the guts. That's not mentioning losing all his family and loved ones, being mentally broken, developing a crippling drug addiction, and being entirely isolated in a friendless self-imposed solitude. And most of the other characters have a pretty nasty time of it as well! (hide spoiler)]
Or poor Sansa, (view spoiler)[stripped naked, beaten, intimidated (hide spoiler)] versus, say, Serilea, (view spoiler)[raped and gang-raped through weeks or months or captivity (hide spoiler)].
Heck, look how many female characters in ASOIAF are running around in dangerous places. If ASOIAF were written by Hobb, then Arya, Sansa, Catelyn, Asha, Dany and Brienne would all have been violently raped by strangers a hundred times by now.

[Razmatus]

I like how the series defies the usual tropes of fantasy, how it is not all fancy and above-us-all but more realistic and all... that the characters have strengths and weaknesses, flaws and virtues, that sometimes it is hard to tell who is a likeable bad guy or despicable good guy, that sometimes a good-looking appealing guy/dudette does atrocities with smile in the face and someone looking like a monster oozes with positive emotions... also that things turn often in unexpected directions

here I had a thought of how both Erikson and Martin manage to sometimes baffle their readers - Erikson says only enough for the reader to have some little ground to hold on to, and creates the "unexpected" often by subtle foreshadowing that many readers pass by, sometimes surprises cos we simply dont know enough to judge, or we judge and fail in that cos we based our expectations on too little info, as we often do in real... Martin, however, does it similarly to his character Littlefinger - he shows us things in overwhelming detail, how the character sees it and thinks it, often based on their own lack of knowledge or such, we make our assumptions, only for them to fall apart because we failed to really see things - as Arya is taught - not only to look,but to see

so yea, both have their way of creating the seemingly unexpected... and I kinda like this, it is different from many books where you know halfway how things are going to turn out - like the main hero meets someone and you know almost instantly that once they fall in love they are to stay towards the end of the book or series, and here, as heartbreaking as it sometimes is, it rarely happens, if ever


but even this kind of dark fantasy has hope in it, however small... another reason why I probably enjoy it so much - it fits one of my beliefs which is that the greater the darkness, even small light may burn blindingly bright there... in many fantasy novels, you have some darkness, enough for the light to show at the end nicely... here you have a LOT of dark, and however the light is small there, seemingly, it burns the brighter I think, the fiercer

:)))

[Lord Nouda]

I find it incredibly enjoyable to read due to the plot complexity that requires me to actually use my brain and think about the consequences of these events, the resultant deaths/machinations that suddenly throw my previous assumptions out the window and then keep me reading wanting to know what happens next!? I find it a better read than the more linear books out there where the author feeds you every single detail.

I think it's a more suitable read for those who are more accustomed to multi-tasking and shorter attention spans who get bored easily and need a change of scenery every now and then. I'm used to reading multiple POV series like the Gone series by Michael Grant or The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson so I don't have any problems with the constant POV change.

I do agree with certain negative points raised in this thread. It is incredibly dark and the rate at which characters are being killed off is just staggering. I no longer have anyone to root for, every character I've supported is no longer alive. That is just annoying. Now I'm just reading it because I have a compulsion to finish off a good series I've started until the very end.

[Martha]

Sonja wrote: "Nope. Can't stand this series. For a variety of reasons. Don't like the fact that he wanders from character to character - drives me crazy. Don't like all the death and destruction. I do not read t..."

I admit, killing off the 'heroes' of your books does make one wonder if ANYBODY is making it out alive. But that's one thing I like about ASoIaF - it's real grit. Good guys don't always win and the bad guys just might turn out not quite so bad in some cases. And I love that he has some really strong female characters - even if they don't all have their heads on tight.

[Martha]

Lord Nouda wrote: "I find it incredibly enjoyable to read due to the plot complexity that requires me to actually use my brain and think about the consequences of these events, the resultant deaths/machinations that ..."

I don't know that they're ALL dead. He kind of left us hanging about one of them there at the end of Dragons. Keeping my fingers crossed that that person is still breathing.

[Razmatus]

I am pretty sure that everyone or almost everyone who read up to ADWD was staring in disbelief at one of Jaime's chapters (view spoiler)[when Brienne suddenly appeared and they rode off to what we dont know yet (hide spoiler)]... which was a wtf moment of first class WTF :D

[Lord Nouda]

Martha wrote: "Lord Nouda wrote: "I find it incredibly enjoyable to read due to the plot complexity that requires me to actually use my brain and think about the consequences of these events, the resultant deaths..."

(view spoiler)[First it was Robb then Tywin (strange yeah, but bad guys are cool too!) and finally Jon. He killed them. Now I have nobody to root for. (hide spoiler)] None of the other surviving characters really interest me all that much. -.-



Jon might revive as one of those...snow critters or that fire zombie courtesy of Melisandre. There's no other way he can survive all those sword thrusts through his vitals.

[Ena]

Wastrel wrote: "Ena: I'm surprised by your reaction, since Hobb and Martin fans have a very large amount of overlap. In particular, if you find Martin sadistic, presumably you must find Hobb terrifyingly psychotic? She not only puts her characters through far worse things than Martin does, but she seems to describe the bad things in a lot more lingering detail.

For instance, compare Tyrion to Fitz. Tyrion is (view spoiler). Fitz is (view spoiler)
Or poor Sansa, (view spoiler) versus, say, Serilea, (view spoiler).
Heck, look how many female characters in ASOIAF are running around in dangerous places. If ASOIAF were written by Hobb, then Arya, Sansa, Catelyn, Asha, Dany and Brienne would all have been violently raped by strangers a hundred times by now. "

You raise some valid points and your comment made me think. Then I read the spoiler Lord Nouda wrote, since I don't intend to read rest of the series and my reaction can only be conveyed all caps WHAT.THE.HECK?!! (warning: from this point on, it's unstoppable rave to the series) (view spoiler)[Robb and Jon is dead? Seriously? (hide spoiler)] Why would I want to read this books anymore? (view spoiler)[There is practically no characters left for me to want to read the series. No Mr. Martin, I'm not the least interested to know Jamie's reasons and how a sweetheart he seems to be now, to the rest of the readers, it won't do I don't care about Jamie, I don't WANT to care about Jamie. I care about Starks and you seem hellbent on killing off every Stark I care, I find it sadistic (hide spoiler)] (end rave)

Now, to Wastrel's points...For one thing, Hobb's child characters are not so terribly without protection like Martin's. Sansa, though she is not quite a child certainly not an adult yet, is in the hands of a psychopath of a prince and his sociopath man who occasionally does not hurt Sansa for some twisted, unexplained reason. Arya is out in the world fending for herself and she is a mere child, not even old enough as Fitz. Hobb even didn't do anything so drastic to Althea, even what she did, she offered some sort of cure. I don't remember Serilea at all, google can't find the character for me either so I will assume she was a minor character, not Sansa-caliber main POV.

On the other hand, no matter how psychotic it went with Fitz, he had Chade, Verity, Burrich, Nighteyes, Fool and many other character that cared for him. He took damage but never half so defenseless as a child as Stark children. And I do find Hobb terrifyingly psychotic (and for the first time in my life, I deliberately sought spoilers to ensure that things would not stay as hopeless and terribly painful as they were, because at some point it was unbearable to read what Fitz were going through and I was considering to stop reading the series), but she redeems and balances all those psychosis with other things. I highly doubt all major female characters would have been raped by strangers a hundred times.

If Martin wrote Elderling universe, I doubt Fool's fate would be the same, or any other characters for that reason. I suspect Regal would cause tremendous amount of damage with Galen and the others. Or Shrewd would be more of a Lannister maybe. In Hobb's world, almost every suffering is choice and if characters knew better, if they had a chance to go back in time, I expect they would have made the same choices even knowing the result. But in Martin's world, I highly doubt Sansa would be so willing to put herself in the same situation, or Renly would be so careless. Unexpected things just keeps happening. And Martin smothers every single thing I find even slightly interesting.

First things that came to my mind are these.

[Jeremiah]

I've read them and enjoyed them, but they aren't the god of all fantasy, in my opinion. The first time I picked up book 1, I loved the prologue. Then kinda got bored about 1/4 of the way through. Picked it up again a few months later and managed to finish it. It's a little too brutal for me, in that nothing good ever seems to happen to the characters, and I find I don't like very many of the PoV characters. I like Jon, Tyrion, Dany, and Davos. But other than that, the other PoV characters are horrible people that I just can't sympathize with. Despite that, I enjoyed the plot and I want to finish the series to see what happens to the characters I like. Assuming they survive, of course...

[Derek]

I admit that I try and read fantasy to escape from the realities of life, and yet hypocritically rely on the reality of character reactions to keep me interested. ASoIaF seemed to have a few interesting characters in book 1, more in book 2, and more in 3 and so on. by mid-book 2 every single chapter seemed a complete end-to-end event. GRRM can really craft situations, more so than most authors.

[Lord Nouda]

The characters used in the POV change with every book. Even if some characters are a bore to read in the first book, it gets better in the other books and you might find one that you actually like (assuming he doesn't decide to kill them).

[Evilynn]

Ena wrote: "Hobb even didn't do anything so drastic to Althea"

...wait, what? (view spoiler)[Being captured and raped, and not even getting to captain her own ship isn't drastic? A reviewer put it better than me: "Althea loses so much, while Brashen only gains -- and Althea's gain of Brashen is portrayed as filling all the places in her life where she's lost, which troubles me". I was also troubled by how Hobb just glossed over the rape. (hide spoiler)] I kinda liked Liveship Traders in general, but really hated the ending and don't think Hobb was kind to Althea at all.

I can understand if people who only read Game of Thrones thinks ASOIAF is stereotypical, Martin doesn't really stand most of the stereotypes on their heads until further along. That said, I think you have to enjoy political shenanigans to fully enjoy ASOIAF, and if that's not your cup of tea it'll probably seem dull.

[Ena]

Evilynn wrote: "Ena wrote: "Hobb even didn't do anything so drastic to Althea"

...wait, what? [spoilers removed] I kinda liked Liveship Traders in general, but really hated the ending and don't think Hobb was kin..."

Even after sending the comment, I felt that I couldn't convey what I mean very well. I agree with the quote you wrote and as you said in your spoiler, Hobb was not kind to Althea at all. It's a different discussion though, at least I see it different from what I try to point. Let me try to clarify: (view spoiler)[ Paragon taking her memories onto himself (hide spoiler)] was sort of a balancing act for me, not making what happened ok but a move toward alleviating the scar. In Sansa's story, though, situation continues longer time(my knowledge is limited to up until the second book on this, but seeing Martin's style I would expect her situation to go worse), she has no way of getting herself out of the situation, or protect herself. She is completely at the mercy of others, on the other hand Althea starts her journey knowing the dangers and takes care of herself quite well, so I assume between two, Althea has better chance to cope with the struggle than sheltered Sansa can. So my theory is Hobb gives her characters tools to deal with the hardships they face or letting them developing necessary skills, sending other characters to support them. But Martin keeps this from his characters.

[Razmatus]

also, in many other series you got characters that have certain features that get shown in a relatively short time and then barely change - a guy thats handsome and skilled and has this and that emotion to him, that changes very slightly if any throughout the course... and here, take Jaime for example, who in first book or first two books would expect him to turn... how he became in the course of books III-V? and it wasnt an all of a sudden turn either as some other authors would do it lazily - he didnt suddenly change from an ego macho guy to some perfect knight... something BAD, or better said a series of BAD things had to happen to him so he would awaken and see things as they are, and force a slow change to himself - aka thats called learning things the hard way

and then the protection thing... do you think that among court schemes and all, that some ppl always had someone guarding their backs? many of those schemes were done precisely to leave the target totally exposed and helpless in the end - see Ned and his fate when he fought he is just going to save the situation with his honor and being all backed up, only to end up getting f***ed, right?

[Tracy]

This discussion goes to show just how many differing opinions we readers of fantasy fiction have on various series. It's certainly informed and lively! I have to say that my opinion aligns with that of Zayne. I just hope G.R.R.M. completes the series before too long.

[Ena]

Razmatus wrote: " he didnt suddenly change from an ego macho guy to some perfect knight... something BAD, or better said a series of BAD things had to happen to him so he would awaken and see things as they are, and force a slow change to himself - aka thats called learning things the hard way"

I imagined that change would come from our change in perspective when learning some past experiences or reasons that stem from past experiences of Jamie since Jamie seemed to me to be a rigid in his convictions sort of character. But what he lives through is where his changes come from, I might like that story. Now, I'm interested.

[S.J.]

Ena wrote: "I imagined that change would come from our change in perspective when learning some past experiences or reasons that stem from past experiences of Jamie since Jamie seemed to me to be a rigid in his convictions sort of character. But what he lives through is where his changes come from, I might like that story. Now, I'm interested."

Agreed. The changes in a character that result from their past experiences are the best part of any story. It's what they learn from their journey that is intriguing. Cersei for example, seems never to learn anything useful but Jamie is a whole different ball of wax. That seems to be true in real life in my experience...some people are wise enough to avoid certain dangers, others have to learn the hard way and there are many who make the same mistakes over and over. What I don't always understand is why readers and authors want characters to undertake such a brutal journey to learn anything. Reading preferences are always specific to individuals of course but if I wanted to experience that brutal realism, honestly I'd just turn on the news. When I escape into a fantasy world I like to see characters that are noble enough to be something to aspire to. I'm not talking about Tolkein-type characters who are inherently "good" or "evil" right from the beginning, but those "grey" characters who face personal challenges and overcome them to become the kind of person we'd all consider to be honourable. Those characters don't necessarily have to be forged in GRRM's type of fire and ice brutality. I don't always find that fun to read. Shock value violence and psychological trauma can certainly be effective, but GRRM's is too dark and too unpleasant for my tastes. I like a more fairy tale world when I want to escape from reality.

[Razmatus]

S.J. wrote: "Ena wrote: "I imagined that change would come from our change in perspective when learning some past experiences or reasons that stem from past experiences of Jamie since Jamie seemed to me to be a..."

as realistic as it is, it is still a model thing, however complex - made as to point out certain things from our real life that gets lost under all the everyday mess... not every fantasy is made as a purely secondary world thing, meant for escape... some kinds of fantasy make a secondary world that is a model - a reflection of reality that points out certain aspects of real world

for example the character of Littlefinger - the one that is "honest" in a way that he isnt really saying lies, he says truths, just withholds certain parts of them that could lead to their better interpretation... so in a way he is disrupting reality... reflecting kinda the way how some ppl tell us truths but not every known fact, as to get a certain response from us

or take Cersei - the kind of woman who wants to be strong, equal, but twists those notions into need for domination... this reminds me of many so-called "feminists" who instead of pursuing the original notion of egalitarian feminism (the one that pursued equal rights for both men and women) are trying to force the domination of women as the better kind... and so Cersei falls into this - she tries to be like a man in a woman's body, to dominate over everybody the way Tywin does

there are still tendrils of hope in the series - for example Bran's complicated quest for the three-eyed crow, or hints of what-we-dont-know-yet between Jaime and Brienne, etc, that shine all the brighter thanks to the darkness around... or the whole character of Samwell, who despite of his suffering always brings a shiny attitude to everything

and it's not like everybody wants to read this or write this... it's a relatively new trend in fantasy I guess, and many ppl like it cos it is so different from the fantasy that used to prevail in the past...

and IMO authors like Martin or Erikson also make it on a literary level that meets up high quality standards not only within the genre of fantasy, but also in literature in general... and yea one could argue that it is not pure fantasy anymore - ASOIAF is in some ways like historical fiction in a fictional world, a fantasy series with strong hints of historical fiction; Malazan book of the fallen has in it the elements of more than one vein of fantasy, absurd drama, postmodern literature etc

if it was only for the brutality, I certainly wouldnt read it, if it didnt have all that stuff that makes one to follow whats going on and such

[Ross]

I've come into this thread a little late, but am Suprised by the passion of some of the opinions! I read Game of Thrones about five years ago and found it compulsive and exciting. Much in the way I felt obliged to watch all five hundred series of Lost I began munching through the series. Book four almost lost me- it was simply getting to unwieldy a format, but the last one (Dance of Dragons) pulled it back a bit.
Is it the best ever? No. Is it good? Yeah, he's done some great things and I like his style (although his potty mouth is getting a bit boring). What is great is how the TV profile of more 'adult' fantasy has been raised, which may facilitate others getting into the area or indeed bring people to our genre.

[Lys]

I don't feel as strongly as you do, Lilyan, but I can't say I'm a fan of the book(s). I read only the first one (half of the first one, to be precise, thanks to the idiotic publishing decisions Martin's publisher took here in my country), but it didn't grab me and I've never felt the desire to find and read the rest of the story.