A Song of Ice and Fire- Overrated?

[David]

Perhaps one of the things that puts people off is that there are few (if any) characters who are trying to do good – or who have an ethical or moral system that puts value on anything other than their own, immediate interests. As various people have said, this is a novel about people (men, in effect) trying to gain a throne; and trying to see that under that throne there is the widest, richest span of land possible. And I’ve seen people function like that too – though these days the results don’t turn out quite so violent or bloody as they do here. But anyone who’s been in a competitive firm for a while will recognise many of the characters in ASoIaF, even if Martin paints them in more lurid colours than we see in daily life. But in daily life we also see people who do things for reasons other than personal interest; such people are scarce in ASoIaF, and what they do generally fails to accomplish its purpose.

For me, this is not so much gritty (because gritty has at least one foot in the real world) as intentionally dark. And why not?

[Benjamin]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with disliking a popular book series, just as long as you don't get personal about it.

ASOIAF isn't for everyone, and that's just fine. I really enjoy it, but I'm probably not going to read anything else that's as gritty and grim, because ASOIAF just about fills up my gritty 'n' grim quota for this decade. Just because I adore this one particular book series doesn't mean I want everything I read to be that way, or even that I think that ASOIAF couldn't stand to be just a shade lighter.

[Becky]

I always tell people new to the series to pay close attention to details. Every single person and place that GRRM put in the story is more than likely there for a reason. It may not be immediate, but there is a reason.

I found that I didn't pay close enough attention the first time through, but once I had listened to the audio books in addition to reading the books, I started to get more understanding of the depth of Martins world. Although, at times, I still don't believe I have a clue.

I have read some pretty amazing group discussions on the series and I am absolutely amazed at some readers grasp of the people and places. One such discussion was a far reaching discussion on the paternity of Jon Snow. It was incredible, they even had people versed in microbiology and genetics envolved in the discussion. But, what fascinated me was the understanding these people had on the different families, their characteristics, and how they played into the discussion.

As you can probably tell, I really enjoyed the series. I bought Dance the day it came out, I havent read it yet, but I think I have plenty of time.

[James]

It's perfectly fine to not like a popular book series as long as you give it a shot first, which you did (my problem series is Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad williams. I dread starting the second book). I, for one, really enjoyed the first 3 books of the series due to the complexity of the plot and the scheming by different parties to win the throne. I also like that there are very few characters who are truly good or evil. Most are just gray and generally have their own motivations.

One thing I do not like about the series is it seems like there are too many cruel people in Martin's world. Most of them, including knights, have absolutely no problem murdering women and children. That bothers me a lot.

[Evilynn]

James wrote: "One thing I do not like about the series is it seems like there are too many cruel people in Martin's world. Most of them, including knights, have absolutely no problem murdering women and children. That bothers me a lot.
"

It's one of the things I love about it. It reads more like historical fiction in that way, I suppose.

[Michael]

I wouldn't classify it as overrated - I think the writing style is very good, but I also think some will have problems connecting with the work because most of the characters are unlikable. For me I want to go to worlds I find interesting, and spend time with characters I would like to know in real-life, and I just didn't get that from these books.

[Brian]

I made it all the way through A Dance With Dragons. That will be the last I read of the series.

My two biggest problems with it were:

1. What I love about fantasy series is really getting to know a set of characters. With this series, as soon as you get to know someone, they're killed.

2. It was so difficult for me to get into the books because the POV and plot shifted with each chapter. Benjamin's book (he posted above) changed POV with each chapter but, by not jumping to a new plot point each time, he drew me in.

[[deleted user]]

Brian wrote: "I made it all the way through A Dance With Dragons. That will be the last I read of the series.

My two biggest problems with it were:

1. What I love about fantasy series is really getting to kno..."

Killing characters left and right was my problem with the series as well. It became so bad, Martin ran out of good guys eventually.

[Wastrel]

Disagree - very few characters are killed in Martin's books. Or, yes, a lot of background characters are killed, but not the ones you care about.

Question: ignoring POVs who are only POVs for one chapter anyway (usually the prologue) and only counting people we actually know are dead rather than those who seem to die in a cliffhanger or are rumoured to be dead but we haven't seen the body... ignoring those, how many POVs have actually been killed off over the course of the series?

Spoiler answer: (view spoiler)[One. Or effectively though not quite actually two. Or, wait, no, three, but the third one is killed in the same book they're introduced in and we don't get much time to get to know them anyway. Plus it's not 100% clear they're dead though I think it's very unlikely they're not (hide spoiler)].
Martin does a surprisingly good job of persuading the reader than anyone can die, without actually killing many POVs.

[Sandra]

Ned Stark wasn't someone you cared about, Wastrel?

[Brian]

By the end of Dance, I pretty much did not care what happened to any of the characters.

[Sam]

I read Game of thrones AND a clash of kings right through to the end and felt it was a terrible chore but I felt I had to keep going because the reviews were so good. It took ages to get to the point and was far too dark for my liking. I felt that too many awful things happened to the main characters and nothing good happened to anyone at all, I wont be reading the rest.

I don't mind realism but I just found the series to be depressing. It is good that so many people liked it but it is also good to know that I am not the only one who did not, thanks for starting this discussion Lilyan, it has certainly been lively.

[Wastrel]

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Ned Stark wasn't someone you cared about, Wastrel?"

*stares*
Did I say 'no-one'?
*checks*
No, I said 'not many'. Those aren't the same thing.
(I'd suggest maybe spoilering that as well? Not everyone has read it, I imagine).

[Sandra]

Wastrel wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Ned Stark wasn't someone you cared about, Wastrel?"

*stares*
Did I say 'no-one'?
*checks*
No, I said 'not many'. Those aren't the same thing.
(I'd suggest maybe spoilerin..."

Well one would hope anyone who hasn't read it wouldn't be reading this.

[Jute]

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Wastrel wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Ned Stark wasn't someone you cared about, Wastrel?"

*stares*
Did I say 'no-one'?
*checks*
No, I said 'not many'. Those aren't the same thing.
(I'd suggest..."

People thinking of reading it might check out this thread to see an opposing opinion.

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

I thought I was missing something, when I neglected to read any GRRM books, until a little over a year ago.
The first kept me interested, the second less so.....and the third....well let's just say, I doubt I will read any more. I can think of a couple more character deaths that were more than background characters. (I won't mention them, as perhaps they were resurrected later.)
With soooooo many characters, I suppose one could expect a few deaths. Okay....and there is a war going on....I just prefer more advancement in stories.
I've read other authors, that readers claim have little or no action....but I feel this series is much to slow getting to the point.

[Jessie]

I've only read the first book but I would have to agree with Brenda about it being slow to get to the point. It translated very well to television because they cut out the very long and boring conversations that took place between the exciting incidences.

Unfortunately, the action was too few and far between for me. Though I still have much respect for Martin as an author; I guess his paticular style was just too slow paced for me.

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

Jessie wrote: "I've only read the first book but I would have to agree with Brenda about it being slow to get to the point. It translated very well to television because they cut out the very long and boring conv..."

"Though I still have much respect for Martin as an author;"

I can agree with that Jessie...
:)

[John]

Great books but not at the top of my list. The tv series is quite awesome

[Razmatus]

Jessie wrote: "I've only read the first book but I would have to agree with Brenda about it being slow to get to the point. It translated very well to television because they cut out the very long and boring conv..."

try Esslemont then... Erikson is awesome but if you want a lot of action without too much of philosophy etc, Esslemont might be a good choice... Night of Knives is a fast read, and Return of the Crimson Guard is a nice read as well (am like third of the way through and loving it so far) :)))

[Preston]

I read it a while ago and it was not one of my favorites but I didn't despise it either. I was impressed by the large scope and the complexity. I didn't relate well to any of the characters (Stark just seemed like a stupid/honorable cliche to me so I am not a fan of his), the sex scenes didn't really work for me and the shifting POV is not something I enjoy. That said I think the author tried to do a lot of great things so although I gave it a "meh" I was happy to see somebody trying to break out of the standard high fantasy rut a bit.

[Razmatus]

yes, at the early stages of th series... but Starks have undergone a lot of development later, which if you havent read or didnt care to read would escape your attention, for example

[Jessie]

Yeah, the cast and scope of the first book was staggering, PM. I could picture Martin in a large room with all of this red string connecting the characters/places/plots etc..
Like in that Sherlock Holmes movie, hehe.

I've heard that he was a historian of sorts. I would have to say that no, these books are in no way overrated.
Only, his prose did not suit me, personally as it was a little slow moving.

Thanks for the recommendations! I will have to check them out:))

[Mailingtoravi]

@Lilyan
i have read about half the first book and i quit it for now to read it it later...but i kind of share the same opinion as you..but so far i can clearly see the book as a great work of literature critically examining 'the gray' shade of human nature.. the hopping between good and greed and so on.. it is a great series no doubt..its just that the book might not be my type..
but i wanted to assure there is nothing wrong with you not liking the series..for me when i was past the child marriage and betrothal..i couldn't continue..it set me at unease and wanted to read a tale of a brave boy fighting against evil along and making the world a better place to live instead of analyzing human nature at depth..i wanted to see there is good in predominance in human nature and i want to believe it.. may be it is denial or may be it is wishful Thinking i don't know. but i concluded that what kept me at unease is the fact that human nature is indeed 'grey' and none of the characters thus far (the half of the first book) have shown no signs of conquering their own evil in their hearts..
i don't know where i am going with this anymore but please do remember that i appreciate the quality of the series being really high..may be it is that you felt the same, you wanted the world to be good,people to be kind as you believe the world must be full of kind people like yourself..
i am gonna stop here..i am not sure you would see my comment after so long but i just came here :) i am just a fantasy younglin' about 4 series old..so bare with me,thanks for reading anyway.

[Prue]

I love it when authors defy the tropes of fantasy. It makes the reading of a new novel exciting because it ventures outside the so-called rules. As long as the world they have built is a credible one, then all that matters to me is that the fable is structured strongly and that characters are three dimensional.
I like the story to be about the character/s' journey. That may involve politics/religion, but I much prefer to see the character arc developing.
Martin's books were bleak for me and I struggled with that. But there is no denying his ability to build a damn good chronicle.
Re the TV series: Peter Dinklage carried what I saw. Brilliant actor. But I did hide behind a pillow an awful lot.

[Lilyan]

Mailingtoravi wrote: "@Lilyan
i have read about half the first book and i quit it for now to read it it later...but i kind of share the same opinion as you..but so far i can clearly see the book as a great work of liter..."

It's not that, I've read some gritty realistic fantasy like Joe Abercrombie and I thought it was great. The ending upset me, yes, because I AM a sucker for happy endings, but I was able to enjoy the books.
ASoIaF is an epic for sure, but it is boooorrinng. Nothing happens. It's bleak, the setting is bleak, the characters are bleak, the conversations are bleak. The first book was such a drag, IMO.
I like exploring people's natures and It's interesting what Martin has introduced in the fantasy genre, but I personally found myself dozing every time I picked up the book.

[Scott]

ASoIaF is an epic for sure, but it is boooorrinng. Nothing happens. It's bleak, the setting is bleak, the characters are bleak, the conversations are bleak. The first book was such a drag, IMO.

I remember liking the first book but I'd agree with your points otherwise. I did read the second book, but that was it for me. Assuming it was an indication of the story to come, it was just too slow and nothing happens. He could have chopped 500 words or more out of it and told the same story. In the end, I wasn't willing to commit so much time to such a series that only gets longer as GRRM continues to get more years out of HBO.

[Vanessa]

I find the series to be disturbing in that any remotely good/honest/moral character has to be either killed, mutilated, or humiliated to the extent they are no longer who they were. If one were to analyze this from a psychological standpoint I'm not sure what it says about the author.

The main problem I have with the series is that book one indicates this will be a conflict between the Starks and Lannisters, but this is out the window as the books progress and endless new characters appear, most of which should be irrelevant to the narrative from a storytelling point of view.

I enjoyed book 1 a lot. Book 3 was just too cruel. And book 2 and 4 were painfully boring. Book 4 especially. I have not read book 5. Not sure I will go on with it.

[Lára]

Overrated or not, it´s so popular that I can tell you this: I won´t read it. Ever.

If people goes for it like a sheep, it tells you something´s gotta be wrong somehow. Same thing with 50 shades of gray or whatever it´s called.

[Razmatus]

Lára wrote: "Overrated or not, it´s so popular that I can tell you this: I won´t read it. Ever.

If people goes for it like a sheep, it tells you something´s gotta be wrong somehow. Same thing with 50 shades of..."

No matter what you think of ASOIAF, throwing it into one bowl with Twilight, Eragon (Brittany) or 50 shades of gray (you) is just twisted :D

and I tend to be suspicious about popular stuff as well, but I find this series as one that deserves the attention... and it brings a lot of ppl to read Erikson, which is even better :P

[Robbe]

@ Lara: That is one of the dumbest reasons not to read a book. You are missing out on one of the best series I have ever read.
And apparently you are one of those "sheep" too, because you read Harry Potter. ;-)
The fact that something is liked by a lot of people doesn't make it is bad.
Disliking something just because it is "mainstream", without checking it out yourself, is a sign of narrow_mindedness in my opinion. :-)

[Sam]

calling some one narrow minded because of a personal choice is a bit extreme,although not reading something because it is popular is rather naive in my opinion,just because a book is popular isn't a case for reading it,there are some books that are quiet popular and mainstream and yes they are not so good example being eragon,but putting game of thrones in that category cos of its popularity is wrong,the malazan book of the fallen series its starting to become popular now would u apply the same argument to that?

[Sam]

calling some one narrow minded because of a personal choice is a bit extreme,although not reading something because it is popular is rather naive in my opinion,just because a book is popular isn't a case for reading it,there are some books that are quiet popular and mainstream and yes they are not so good example being eragon,but putting game of thrones in that category cos of its popularity is wrong,the malazan book of the fallen series its starting to become popular now would u apply the same argument to that?

[Robbe]

@Lara: I'm sorry if I sounded offensive. English is not my native language. Perhaps there is another, less offensive word for what I meant.
However I got the feeling that you think only "sheep", for lack of a better word, read ASOIAF, while in fact many die-hard readers read and loved it. People who read books from small, lesser known authors too. Yes many people started reading it because they loved the tv series, but that doesn't imply it's a bad series.
I also fail to see why you would read the Twilight and The Inheritance Cycle series, but not give ASOIAF a chance. :-)

Edit: you posted your reply while I was typing mine. You first post said you would never read ASOIAF because it is popular. That triggered my reply. But now you say you actually tried reading it. If you tried and didn't like, that's something completely different than not trying and not liking. The former I completely understand. The latter not so much.
There is no reason to feel offended. We are just having different opinions. No biggy.

[Sam]

I wasn't giving out in the slightest,I was only saying that u shouldn't paint all popular books with the same brush,the fact u read the book n didn't like it is a completely different story,plenty of popular books I don't like,n authors for that matter,all I was saying judging a book just on popularity is wrong from any1,if ur looking for a good fantasy book/series I would suggest the painted man/demon cycle by Peter v Brett,or the night angel or lightbringer series by Brent weeks,all good books,and no vampires or wolves in them,again if u thought I was giving out or anything like that I apologise cos I genuinely wasn't,

[Sam]

I have the wheel of time book 1 and book 2 sitting on my self for a few yrs and I can honestly say I haven't read them and the reason i think after what every1 says bout how great day are will lead to them being a massive disappointment

[Razmatus]

Sam wrote: "calling some one narrow minded because of a personal choice is a bit extreme,although not reading something because it is popular is rather naive in my opinion,just because a book is popular isn't ..."

people are getting at MBOTF cos after they read ASOIAF they usually hunger for sth of that level, I mean, the complexity and all - and MBOTF is one of few that can match it, and, IMO, even "outpiss" it, although I gotta say that both are complex on different levels

TV show only so to say "rediscovered" it - like in case of LOTR, the movies rediscovered it for the public... it wasnt like this was that much of a huge seller before, the TV show helped a lot in showing the general public that there arent only flowery happy ending fantasy thingies... that even fantasy can be a truly complex and adult experience

[DavidO]

Lára wrote: "The main reason why I actually stopped Game of Thrones is because of the word: direwolf."

Yikes. If the word wolf is on your "no read" list, there aren't a whole lot of fantasy books left. I doubt I could come up with 6 fantasy books which never use the word wolf.

[carol.]

David. We need to talk. ;)

[~Thena~]

Razmatus wrote: "Sam wrote: "calling some one narrow minded because of a personal choice is a bit extreme,although not reading something because it is popular is rather naive in my opinion,just because a book is po..."

What's funny is that I read Game of Thrones back when it was first released. I did like it, but also found it boring. I was never excited enough about it to read any if the others. I still have no desire to read them. I have nothing bad to say about the series. I'm just indifferent. Yet I adore Erickson's books and can happily read them over and over again.

*shrugs*

Different strokes, and all that.

[Lord Nouda]

I read ASOIAF long before the tv series was released and as a fan of high fantasy, I can say that it's quite unique. There isn't really anything out there (that I've read yet) that can quite compare to it. The series as a whole started to mellow down after all the major deaths (I nearly stopped at that point) but I have a tendency to want to finish reading a series that I started so I'm soldiering on. I can't say that I've been disappointed with my decision. The series does improve quite a bit and the plot expands with new possibilities. GRRM is a very good writer even if he does take FOREVER to release books. In fact, I think the average is five years between books. Maybe if he could stop blogging and wasting time on trivial pursuits (=P) then he could get the series done before he....dies. I mean the dude is pretty old now. GRRM has also stated that he doesn't want anyone to finish off the series if he happens to die so it could very well end up to be one of my most hated series in existence if that happens. I NEED to know how it ends.

[Vanessa]

spoiler - everyone is killed or mutilated horribly - ha.

[Jute]

Vanessa wrote: "spoiler - everyone is killed or mutilated horribly - ha."

Yeah... pretty much!

I think the thing that turned me away from this series in the first book is that every act of mercy ends up being a horrible mistake and just leads to awful stuff. So not only do you have bad things happening to people you like, but the message is that no good deed will go unpunished.

[Razmatus]

Vanessa wrote: "spoiler - everyone is killed or mutilated horribly - ha."

very funny... however, those that keep whining/making fun of those deaths either didnt read books/watch the show carefully or just plain miss the point... you just see people dying and getting hurt as if it was there just for that

but how about noticing WHY those deaths/mutilations/hurts happened? no plots in the background? no one had those deaths coming cos of what they did/said?

(view spoiler)[Ned Stark died cos he was too honorable and just wasnt able to play along with ppl who had no moral restraints... Bran got hurt cos he saw something he wasnt supposed to see... Joffrey got killed most probably cos Tyrells were afraid he could be as bad to Margaery as he was to Sansa, or he just stood in the way of some Littlefinger's scheme... Tywin got killed cos Tyrion was on the loose and just plain acted on vengeance when he had a chance... Oberyn got his weapon turned on him...

Lisa died cos she revealed to Sansa something she shouldnt and thus Littlefinger disposed of her (hide spoiler)]

and others... author, in most cases, either foreshadowed those deaths and such, or if you read carefully, could see that some characters just had it coming

you dont like many deaths/mutilations, well, that doesnt make the series bad

dont even start with Malazan books then, even though that series is different... but I guess you would whine about many deaths there as well, so dont even bother

[Scott]

I read the first GRRM book back when it was a SFBC Pick of the Month (or whatever they called it). I saw that particular book going for $100 on eBay once. Too bad I gave it away. :-(

I read the second not too long after that and, as mentioned, gave up on the series after finishing it. In fact, I remember skipping whole pages cause the damn thing just wouldn't end.

I've tried the Malazan books as well and stopped reading the second book about mid-way through. Too all over the place, IMO.

Maybe the grand, ten book epic fantasy tale just isn't my thing. I guess I'm a traditionalist. Give me a trilogy and I'm set.

[Jute]

Razmatus wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "spoiler - everyone is killed or mutilated horribly - ha."

very funny... however, those that keep whining/making fun of those deaths either didnt read books/watch the show carefully..."

Oh I read the cause of the deaths...but I think you might miss what some of us are saying. It's the unremitting bleakness of the series that's the problem. Not that people die.

[Sandra]

Razmatus wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "spoiler - everyone is killed or mutilated horribly - ha."

very funny... however, those that keep whining/making fun of those deaths either didnt read books/watch the show carefully..."

Well in Malazan, no one is ever really dead. They keep popping back up in some form or other. Like a video game.

I read the first two books also. Loved the first, the second not so much as it didn't seem to advance the plot much. I planned to finish after A Dance with Dragons was completed, but then I found out that's not the final book and I sighed and thought, "Oh well, if GRRM doesn't die before it's finished, I certainly will. I'm even older than him, after all."

[Vanessa]

hmm I wrote something earlier, I think on this thread, getting into the psychological need to mutilate or demean every good character - to take away what it is that made them them. Pretty sure I get it. Everyone is very gray to dark black. If I want to experience that, all I need do is walk out my door or look out the window. Not interested in reading about it.

[Sandra]

Vanessa wrote: "hmm I wrote something earlier, I think on this thread, getting into the psychological need to mutilate or demean every good character - to take away what it is that made them them. Pretty sure I g..."

^Like^

[Razmatus]

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Razmatus wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "spoiler - everyone is killed or mutilated horribly - ha."

very funny... however, those that keep whining/making fun of those deaths either didnt read books/watch t..."

only some... and they dont do that just cos Erikson doesnt like to have characters dead - having read through the entire series plus the other malazan books, those things have a purpose there, each time

@vanessa - I see your point... although, thats kinda one of things I liked there, it isnt a perfect world where everything gets eventually solved out, where wrongs are answered immediately, where the injustice eventually goes away etc... it isnt a world where you dont have to be afraid cos the "heroes" would eventually come out safe at the end... it is bleak, distressing whatever you want, but then, I found myself in a way enjoying the uncertainty, what will happen next? and pls dont go on joking that they all die, see (view spoiler)[how everyone thought Brienne was dead and then she suddenly pops up in ADWD - shows how he mindfucked ppl... also the thing about a seemingly dead Targaryen popping up (hide spoiler)]... so, all in all, I can see why you didnt like the series, but then, I still dont think it is overrated

and then, some of ppl's fervour on the series is I think caused by some of things you dont seem to enjoy - this kind of fantasy, while being in a less concentrated form being present earlier, is still quite new, and authors writing in this "gritty" vein (Abercrombie, Bakker, Erikson also) are just emerging into the knowledge of the wider public, that explains the hype I guess?

P.S.: Glad you seem to like Tolkien though, hehe :)))