Infinite Jest – David Foster Wallace discussion
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Infinite Jest
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Mary wrote:I'm a glutton for punishment. I poked my nose in that thread and the first thing I saw was "who thinks so-and-so died in the the end?" eeeek! Reverse. I need to stay outta there!+1 :((((
Moira wrote: "OH DEAR. I'm sorry, did I ruin it for you??"Nah, you give my memory span too much credit ;) But if you see me in there, kick me out!
Garima wrote: "Mary wrote:I'm a glutton for punishment. I poked my nose in that thread and the first thing I saw was "who thinks so-and-so died in the the end?" eeeek! Reverse. I need to stay outta there!+1 :(((("
OK, I have edited my first comment with lots of bold text, so people who haven't read IJ yet will see it and back up before they hit any spoilers.
Kris wrote: "OK, I have edited my first comment with lots of bold text, so people who haven't read IJ yet will see it and back up before they hit any spoilers."Oh, thank you. Duh, maybe I should do that with my comment too....
Moira wrote: "Kris wrote: "OK, I have edited my first comment with lots of bold text, so people who haven't read IJ yet will see it and back up before they hit any spoilers."Oh, thank you. Duh, maybe I should ..."
I think you should feel free to have unfettered spoiler-ridden conversation in that thread with no use of spoiler tags. We just have a bit of a Bluebeard's wife situation going in here atm. :)
Kris wrote: "We just have a bit of a Bluebeard's wife situation going in here atm. :) "//cracks up You mean like, Don't watch the cassette? Heh.
Kris wrote: "Garima wrote:OK, I have edited my first comment with lots of bold text, so people who haven't read IJ yet will see it and back up before they hit any spoilers. "haha! Oh Kris, I read clearly what you mentioned there, but I'm like that spoilt kid who do what they are told not-to-do! But from now on I'll mind my actions.
Ali wrote: "MJ wrote: "I've decided not to read the endnotes upon my re-read. I'm happy to be whipped for my negligence, but they added nothing to the book for me."I've thought about doing the same thing. I'..."
I can see its being an interesting experience to re-read at some time without the endnotes -- I'm wondering how it would affect your experience reading IJ.
Since this is my first time through and I'm obsessed with endnotes and footnotes (geeky historian alert), I'm definitely reading them -- but I have an e-version and a paperback, so I think I can negotiate the balancing act others have described.
I was always under the assumption that IJ was meant to be read with the endnotes. Like, it's not optional; it would be akin to skipping a chapter or something.
Also, where is Moira's kindle status? I have IJ on the Kindle and it totally includes endnotes.
Jason wrote: "I was always under the assumption that IJ was meant to be read with the endnotes. Like, it's not optional; it would be akin to skipping a chapter or something."Yup.
A few of the endnotes are a lot of fun! If you start thinking about endnotes in the traditional sense (extra info that isn't important to the work as a whole), then you might groan about a few of the monstrous ones and it'll be difficult for you. But if you think about them as just another part of the book that you have to read (what if one of the endnotes had been written into the main body of text as its own chapter?), then you'll be fine.
Yep, definitely read endnotes on the first read. Part of my problem was simply the UK IJ has the main font size in about 10pt, and the endnotes even teensier. I'll get the US pbk for the re-read which is taller and wider and so probably has a bigger font.
At B & N the other day, I went over to the W's to check out the book, IJ. After picking up and feeling the heft of this big ole puppy, actually feeling the weight of in my hands I thought, "I don't theenk so. My wrists would bend then crumble into dust, changing this to Infinite Disgust. I kinda sorta like my wrists right where there're at, I think I'm going with the Kindle format."You know, I've read many books this many pages and more that are not quite this...dense...this...hefty-hefty-hefty. Maybe it's larger than life? Larger than pages? More than ordinary?
No need to be intimidated. They're just words. Start there and you'll be surprised how far you'll get.
MJ wrote: "Yep, definitely read endnotes on the first read. Part of my problem was simply the UK IJ has the main font size in about 10pt, and the endnotes even teensier. I'll get the US pbk for the re-read wh..."Everything is bigger in America.
Stephen M wrote: "No need to be intimidated. They're just words. Start there and you'll be surprised how far you'll get."Hmmmmm . . . started Women & Men yet? It's just words!
Jason wrote: "I was always under the assumption that IJ was meant to be read with the endnotes. Like, it's not optional; it would be akin to skipping a chapter or something."Yeah, I think it's actually not so much what's in the endnotes - they're not that qualitatively different from what's in the book, except for maybe the length of the list of the dippy-sounding movies or whatever - but the way you have to work your way back and forth, the same way you get disoriented in time trying to figure out what's happening when. It's part of the narrative structure. - It'd be interesting to see them printed as actual footnotes; those used to be down at the bottom of the pages. These footnotes would probably take up pages and pages of text!
Jason wrote: "Also, where is Moira's kindle status? I have IJ on the Kindle and it totally includes endnotes."I don't think I dloaded it onto the Kindle yet (connecting the wireless eats my battery) - I just remember some nightmarish experiences with footnotes _and_ endnotes on the Kindle. But who knows, maybe it's something with my specific ereader, it freezes a lot too.
ETA It's dloading now....ha, I like to imagine it will take longer to dload than a regular book. Probably not. Hmm it does seem to be taking longer....
Of course I also have a shitty wireless signal in this room, so that might be it.
-- Here we go. WTF is this? A Foreword? "The book is like a spaceship"? Who the fuck wrote this?
....ever-inward, into the depths of memory and the relentless conjuring of a certain time and place in a way that evokes -- it seems so wrong to type this name but then again, so right! -- Marcel Proust. There is the same sort of obsessiveness, the same incredible prevision and focus, and the same sense that the writer wanted (and arguably succeeds at) nailing the consciousness of an age.
HA. OK, that's awesome. - Wait no, Wallace is not like Sufjan Stevens, the hell. And you don't mean Shoah, buddy, you mean Wiseman. - OH it's Dave Eggers. Hmph.
....and wow, the Kindle, my Kindle at least, makes an ugly mess out of "creatus." Maybe this thing is busted. Click, click, click, click. Many clicks and "2%" of the way in, there is the crystal meth footnote. More click click up the lines of text. More click click click over the letters of the line. -- OK, it does work fine. It's weird not to see them in tiny print, tho.
MJ wrote: "Hmmmmm . . . started Women & Men yet? It's just words!"Nah, dude. I knock that shit out no prob.
Moira, how long do you expect me to patiently wait for you to ask me to be your friend? It's been a looooooong time.And fuck Edward Rochester and his middle name.
(Fairfax, though, I think.)
I never meant to dismiss difficulty. I just wanted to dispel anticipatory anxiety because after all, all books are just words. Now certainly there are books that are extraordinarily difficult. But I really believe in people on this site (people who care enough about books to post and discuss them I think are up to the task of Infinite Jest). Would I say that about Gravity's Rainbow? I would not. I just really believe Infinite Jest is the kind of difficulty that most people can handle. More than most people give themselves credit for!
Stephen M wrote: "I never meant to dismiss difficulty. I just wanted to dispel anticipatory anxiety because after all, all books are just words. Now certainly there are books that are extraordinarily difficult. But ..."There's the actual time and effort and critical engagement that it takes to read and understand a challenging work, and then there's the myth that grows up around it, which often keeps some readers away, or intimidates them to the point that, even if they do read the book, they do so without leaving space to have their own reactions (what is the right response to this etc.) I thought that was what you were getting to with your comment, Stephen - and I think it's good to keep that in mind.
Jason wrote: "Moira, how long do you expect me to patiently wait for you to ask me to be your friend? It's been a looooooong time.Aww! Well jeez, I thought I had friended you already. No? Let me fix that!
And fuck Edward Rochester and his middle name.
twss
(Fairfax, though, I think.)"
Yes! I think it's his mother's maiden name, or whatever.
Ali wrote: "So for about two months, I read five or six books of increasing length to ease myself into IJ. And that worked, because I saw the way it was written, and how inviting the text was (at least compared to the book I finished just before starting it, Gravity's Rainbow), and it didn't matter that there were a thousand pages of this writing, because I would gladly have spent a thousand pages in that kind of prose. "I think that's a really good way of approaching it. I sort of got into reading Dostoevsky the same way: first I read Notes from Underground, and then some of the novellas, and then I think Demons, and then we were off to the races. It's sort of like training, I guess. Eventually your brain just seems to get used to handling longer and longer works.
Oh, cool group crossover! Welcome, Proustitute. I think a few of us might try to knock off DFW in December so we can be ready for your Proust group in Jan.I cannot even believe I'm attempting this.
this is making me laugh. i was so *ashamed* to have joined both IJ and Proust for 2013. i guess it's 100% safe to come out of the nerd closet now.
Jason wrote: "oh, we are nerds. >this is us considering how to manage the reading commitment of both groups."oh yes, it appears that in message 74 i was still in denial, pretending like i couldn't *possibly* get through all of ISOLT next year. but you guys set me straight with all your reason and logic and whatnot. i've been a little quiet, but i'm most definitely present. and very much looking forward to one hell of a year of reading!
Jason wrote: "I cannot even believe I'm attempting this."Haaaaah yeah me neither.
Moira wrote: "Jason wrote: "I cannot even believe I'm attempting this."Haaaaah yeah me neither."
BUT WE ARE NOT ALOOOONE!
Moira wrote: "Jason wrote: "Also, where is Moira's kindle status? I have IJ on the Kindle and it totally includes endnotes."I don't think I dloaded it onto the Kindle yet (connecting the wireless eats my batte..."
After reading the hardback book Susanna Clarke's "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell" filled with pages of HER countless use of footnotes and tidbits that did contain the odd little bit of absurdities within the endnotes, which was her way of divulging much of the back storied history into her magnificently created world of magick and faeries, I thought, "Well that's one way of imparting a sense a "real" to the reader. Sometimes a bother to read, but in the end, they brought so much more into the story.
BUT...when I decided to DL it on my I-Pad for posterity sake—what a bust. The clicking back and forth on the footnotes-endnotes—honestly was more like a chore. I would have much preferred they had been at the bottom of each page like the book. Clicking back and forth,—surely there's a better way!
What does this mean to Infinite Jest? Probably nothing. *oops-grinning-oddly bizarre group mood sharing fest?*
I'm still planning to go Cyber-Jest jumping full into the Infinite. Bookmarks and Highlights Galore. I value my wrists more. Click click. Click click.
Ali wrote: "Oh, yeah. I think so too. I've said before on another review that it seems as if when talking about IJ, a lot of readers get so caught up in the length and the unconventional structure that the act..."I love the idea of a spoof review. I wonder how many people would realize it is a spoof, though? :)
Kris wrote: "Stephen M wrote: "I never meant to dismiss difficulty. I just wanted to dispel anticipatory anxiety because after all, all books are just words. Now certainly there are books that are extraordinari..."For me, the length of a book is not relevant, I say bring it on. I'm going to be reading anyway, might as well get my money's worth, ; ) BUT, whosoever wrote the voluminous tome, had best make it worthy of my time—or else...well...well...okay PUNCH—BAM—POW fewer stars from me. So there.
That being said, there are a few books I do find intimidating. A few of these are not long paged books at all, one is - definitely, and one is five volumes, not to mention written and drawn about 5 centuries ago. A different mindset altogether. I also shiver at the thought of discussing amongst the more learned folk, books written by those so esoteric, so extreme in their European arty exclusive underground nature not even The Literary Review, The NY Times or The New Yorker has deigned to speak their name.
Proustitute wrote: "Happy to be here! What a wonderful group read. It will be my first trek through IJ.My only worry is keeping up with DFW while convening the Proust group. Hopefully accountability here will help."
Welcome - I'm so glad you're here! We're committed to making sure members can belong to both groups and still maintain (at least some) sanity. Whenever you have the schedule set for Proust (no rush on that at all), we'll put together the IJ schedule with start dates in December and/or January, and make sure the schedules work together. We have plenty of IJ veterans here to lend their expertise on scheduling and threads, so I think all will be well.
And thanks for undertaking the huge Proust read. The caliber of discussion is impressive already, and we haven't even started reading yet! I've been ordering auxiliary readings and listening to playlists.
Jason wrote: "oh, we are nerds. this is us considering how to manage the reading commitment of both groups."Yes, Jason and Marieke - proud nerds. Let our geek flag fly. :)
Wordsmith wrote: "Moira wrote: "Jason wrote: "Also, where is Moira's kindle status? I have IJ on the Kindle and it totally includes endnotes."I don't think I dloaded it onto the Kindle yet (connecting the wireless..."
I love it that we are discussing the physiology and logistics of reading IJ. We have resources, suggestions, etc. I think it's great that even aspects of reading that we usually don't think about require planning and attention when it comes to IJ.
I have an e-book and a paperback, so I think I may try to find a way to read both to handle the text/endnote problem. I've been doing something kind of like that during my read of Ulysses with Gifford's Annotations, and it is working fairly well.
Wordsmith wrote: "That being said, there are a few books I do find intimidating. A few of these are not long paged books at all, one is - definitely, and one is five volumes, not to mention written and drawn about 5 centuries ago. A different mindset altogether. I also shiver at the thought of discussing amongst the more learned folk, books written by those so esoteric, so extreme in their European arty exclusive underground nature not even The Literary Review, The NY Times or The New Yorker has deigned to speak their name. "I know exactly what you mean - over the summer, when I was focusing on Classical Greece and Rome and Medieval Europe in my history of sexuality class, it took a lot of time and work on the part of the students to be able to understand a very different culture and mindset. Part of the challenge and the joy of studying history, but it can be off-putting and intimidating if you haven't yet developed some familiarity with context.
And as for elitists of any kind - well, I tend to get frustrated and feel like throwing heavy objects after a while. Many of my students enter my classes really intimidated by academic snobs, and it takes some time and effort to help them to feel empowered to develop and articulate their own views.
I'm not sure that I can read it in a month (although winter break helps), but I do think I can get a good head start by beginning in December. I think Nathan said earlier in this thread that he thought 3 months would be a good estimate. We'll keep discussing the schedule and timing.
i was thinking of starting in December....but not finishing until February or so....depending....i don't know...i have never read IJ. i started Lydia Davis's translation of Swann's Way and was loving it when i realized i had too many other things going on and i wasn't being fair to it, so i know i'll get settled into that just fine. also someone somewhere pointed out that most of the Proust books are not terribly long so moving at a pace of approximately one book every two months is very manageable. i think. i guess i'll find out!the thing i haven't been figuring in are all the extra books that i know i'm going to want to read. oops.
Yeah, I'm probably way underestimating the time it'll take. According to my kindle, Atlas Shrugged is even longer than Infinite Jest and I think I read that in a month, or maybe it took me longer but I remember reading other stuff at the same time? Whatever, I guess we'll see.
we'll set the stopwatch for you. i know people who can read it that quickly, so you might have no problem. my reading speed is medium, plus i tend to need breaks and/or read other things for other purposes. i'll definitely be reading other books at the same time, no matter what because i'm incapable of focusing on just one book.
Wordsmith wrote: "The clicking back and forth on the footnotes-endnotes—honestly was more like a chore. I would have much preferred they had been at the bottom of each page like the book."Yeah, I really really miss ACTUAL footnotes, which used to be at the bottom of pages so you didn't kill your wrists flipping back and forth in big heavy books. I don't know why they can't do it on the Kindle - I mean, I guess it's because of there not being actual "pages," just locations (still not quite sure how that works). But then some Kindle books do have "actual pages"? So I don't know.
John Updike I think talks about one old Boswell biography where there were like two lines of regular-sized text and then the whole rest of the page was taken up by a footnote.
Kris wrote: "I've been ordering auxiliary readings and listening to playlists. "I love that first playlist, so much. It's great.
Kris wrote: "I think it's great that even aspects of reading that we usually don't think about require planning and attention when it comes to IJ."YEAH. I think he meant to do that, too. It's a book about reading, as well as all the other things it's about too. The experience of reading.
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "I'll be reading the hd, because I'm too cheap to buy a pb. "Oh wow. It could be like an exercise ball. An exercise book.
One thing that really helped me during the Anna Karenina readthrough was the schedule - I think it worked out to a hundred pages a week, not sure. At the beginning I fell way, way behind but then managed to catch up. It just really helped a lot having a structure everyone was trying to stick to, even if I didn't always manage it. (That said, there were also thread discussions where people could go back and discuss certain parts they'd read already, so they weren't just stuck talking about the current reading only, which was nice.)
//squints I think it might actually be a scholarly edition of one of Boswell's late diaries....I'll have to check. I think that's in Hugging the Shore.
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Boswell's Johnson"....that's what /she/ Hesther Thrale said?
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Jason wrote: "According to my kindle, Atlas Shrugged is even longer than Infinite Jest"For shame. This is supposed to be a friendly forum. Keep it clean, please."
Laughing here.
Infinite Jest – David Foster Wallace
Books mentioned in this topic
Women and Men (other topics)The Quincunx (other topics)
Every Love Story Is a Ghost Story: A Life of David Foster Wallace (other topics)
A Suitable Boy (other topics)
The Devil's Details: A History of Footnotes (other topics)
More...
(the spoiler thread will make things ..."
This cracked me up.
Moira wrote: " I poked my nose in that thread and the first thing I saw was "who thinks so-and-so died in the the end?" eeeek! Reverse. I need to stay outta there!
OH DEAR. I'm sorry, did I ruin it for you??"
Don't worry, Moira - you were using the spoiler thread just as it was intended to be used!