Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
Policies & Practices
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Should books that only exist online as a series of messsages on Goodreads be considered books?
many of the authors have published these books through ARe and the rest are planning on getting theirs up there after they are released for the event
Mod
No. If they are then also published elsewhere, that's fine. But posts in the writing section or posts in groups are NOT books by GR standards.
Rivka - so how does this affect serialized fiction on websites that people sometimes list - should it also not be NAB'd?
Mod
Fiction published on other sites is fine if it is complete and book-length.
These are not just messages that we've listed as books. These are short stories that are free and available to download from Goodreads and other sites such as ARe. A large number of them will be compiled into an anthology just like we've done with our previous two events. The authors get a lot of exposure, readers get to discover new authors and Goodreads member not familiar with M/M romance get the chance to discover a new genre they may not have tried before. I don't understand what the harm is in that.Are you really going to delete these? Even the ones the have been rated and reviewed?
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "These are not just messages that we've listed as books. These are short stories that are free and available to download from Goodreads and other sites such as ARe. A large number of them will be ..."They are not all downloadable on Goodreads. And very few of the "books" are downloadble anywhere,
I counted over 80 stories that only exist as M/M Romance discussion group messages.
The vast majority of the downloadable books are only downloadable from the M/M Romance Discussion Group.
I agree with RIVKA who wrote, Fiction published on other sites is fine if it is complete and book-length."These are all short stories. I don't know if that qualifies a book length. However, I think the small minority of the "books" that are downloadable on legitimate ebook stores (not a website solely designed to get around the issue by using a loophole) should remain as books on Goodreads.
In considering the problem librarians have to consider where can this precedent lead. Anyone can start a Goodreads discussion group. If you allow one discussion group to do this than anyone can start a discussion group and enter their messages into books listed on Goodreads.
In this M/M Romance group messages this one shows the "books" in question:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...
rivka wrote: "There's no need to NAB an item without an ISBN; deleting works fine.Fiction published on other sites is fine if it is complete and book-length."
That's good information. Does that mean that Goodreads librarians can now go ahead and delete these group messages entered as books?
Just my two cents - It seems like these stories would be considered "short stories published online" and thus qualify as "books" for GR purposes.See the Librarian Manual under "These Items ARE Books," the third to last listing: http://www.goodreads.com/help/librari...
"* short stories published online (the format should be "ebook")"
Audrey wrote: "* short stories published online (the format should be "ebook")"I guess the question is, does this posting of the stories qualify as "publishing"?
For that matter, if it is publishing, would these be individually published stories or would the challenge itself be better considered an anthology published by the group? (Is there an editorial board?)
they have it the past released anthologies of the various stories - Stuff My Stocking: M/M Romance Stories that are Nice and… Naughty was the first one that they did and the current one under question is the 3rd such one
Dee wrote: "they have it the past released anthologies of the various stories - Stuff My Stocking: M/M Romance Stories that are Nice and… Naughty was the first one that they did and the current one under quest..."That sounds like a great idea! When is the event?
To all: Since it looks like the book(s) are to be published shortly, why not give it a little bit of time. GR allows entries for "coming soon" books all the time.
MrsJoseph wrote: "To all: Since it looks like the book(s) are to be published shortly, why not give it a little bit of time."I agree. There's no sense in mass-deleting things that could very well be "legitimized", so to speak, within a few days/weeks/whatever.
If the decision is made to delete these, I would suggest that an attempt be made to notify the authors and give them some time to find another home for the work. Or at least give them the chance to grab the content.
Audrey wrote: "Just my two cents - It seems like these stories would be considered "short stories published online" and thus qualify as "books" for GR purposes.See the Librarian Manual under "These Items ARE Bo..."
If we don't want people to use GR as a platform for distributing their books (if sheet music is considered a "book" then a short story certainly is) for free, why is that option available? However the option to give away your book (through download) is there, so it seems rather petty to pick and choose what is eligible or worthy of being a download and what isn't. It doesn't say you must also offer the book in other locations. If that is the route GR is taking, they need to inform ALL authors who offer free downloads that it must be found on-line elsewhere "in addition to GR".
Audrey wrote: "Just my two cents - It seems like these stories would be considered "short stories published online" and thus qualify as "books" for GR purposes.See the Librarian Manual under "These Items ARE Bo..."
The Librarians Manual says "short stories published online (the format should be "ebook")
These are not ebooks, they are messages on a discussion group's topics.
Preston wrote: "Audrey wrote: "Just my two cents - It seems like these stories would be considered "short stories published online" and thus qualify as "books" for GR purposes.See the Librarian Manual under "The..."
So would you consider all entries for fan fiction that is only available in html on a website should also be removed as that is not an "e-book"? Just curious as I think there is plenty of that on GR as well, I've seen links to some but not reading it myself haven't investigated it further.
The moderators of the group in question have stated that the books will be published after their group event...
Preston wrote: "Audrey wrote: "Just my two cents - It seems like these stories would be considered "short stories published online" and thus qualify as "books" for GR purposes.See the Librarian Manual under "The..."
Preston, you're a member of our group so I'm a little surprised that you are so eager to see these stories deleted. They are short stories. There are a lot of short stories that have been uploaded to Goodreads. Granted some of them are just placeholders at the moment because the story has not been through the process of having the ebook version created for it yet. But how is that different from allowing new releases put up on Goodreads. They are not a book YET. But they will be soon. This is a huge project and even with many volunteers it's a bit daunting.
MrsJoseph wrote: "That sounds like a great idea! When is the event?.."The event is going on now in the M/M Romance group. We do a similar event every year. The stories are an exclusive feature of our group but after the story has been posted, the author can do whatever they want with it and give it away or sell it on other sites. Once all of the stories have been posted, we'll be bundling them into anthologies that will be available to download for free.
I am with Preston, a line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise we will have people uploading their insurance policies, camera manuals and ISA annual statements policies(and some have tried to). If we allow msgs on a forum as a published book, are we also going to allow an entry for a users personal blog entries about their days which are published on a website? We have autobiographies - what is a blog about someones day if not a short autobiography. I certainly don't want GR full of entries to "interesting" daily blogs just because they could be classified as short autobiographies.
Edit to add: If the stories are published else where then they meet the criteria for GR but only as a msg in a forum then no.
Tam wrote: "If we don't want people to use GR as a platform for distributing their books (if sheet music is considered a "book" then a short story certainly is) for free, why is that option available? However the option to give away your book (through download) is there, so it seems rather petty to pick and choose what is eligible or worthy of being a download and what isn't. It doesn't say you must also offer the book in other locations. If that is the route GR is taking, they need to inform ALL authors who offer free downloads that it must be found on-line elsewhere "in addition to GR"."If a story is downloadable through the Goodreads, it's been put together as an actual ebook and so obviously counts as an ebook. The books in question here are those that have not been put together as "actual" ebooks (yet!) and exist only as a series of forum messages.
Preston wrote: "The Librarians Manual says "short stories published online (the format should be "ebook")
These are not ebooks, they are messages on a discussion group's topics."
I think you're misunderstanding the manual's ebook reference. Fiction published online, whether or not it's in "actual" ebook format, should be marked as an ebook for GR purposes. So as Cait said in message 10, the issue at hand is whether or not a story in a series of forum messages constitutes "published". (However, this doesn't matter if we start to look at these as upcoming releases instead of things that have already been released.)
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "Granted some of them are just placeholders at the moment because the story has not been through the process of having the ebook version created for it yet. But how is that different from allowing new releases put up on Goodreads. They are not a book YET. But they will be soon. This is a huge project and even with many volunteers it's a bit daunting."
Lori, I think a lot of the confusion is stemming from the fact that most of the records don't make mention of an upcoming anthology (at least not that I saw, it's totally possible that I just missed it) and have links to threads in your group as the official URLs. I suspect that's what is so seriously misleading people who aren't aware of how your group's fiction production works.
You're probably right Amara. Jen is aware of this issue, although unfortunately I don't think she is a member of this group. Once she gets home from work we'll figure out what we can do. Hopefully there won't be a mass deletion before we get a chance.
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "You're probably right Amara. Jen is aware of this issue, although unfortunately I don't think she is a member of this group. Once she gets home from work we'll figure out what we can do. Hopeful..."I'm sure there will not be a mass deletion. Once a question is raised, nothing changes until the proper solution is determined.
Cait wrote: "For that matter, if it is publishing, would these be individually published stories or would the challenge itself be better considered an anthology published by the group? (Is there an editorial board?)"In the past the M/M Romance Group has waited until the stories were made into anthologies by the Group (e.g. the five volume books staring with Don't Read in the Closet: Volume One before listing it as a book.
The last group message said there were 30 more short stories left to add and did not mention when the short stories on their messages would be turned into ebooks, let alone anthologized. It would be a good idea to as the ask the Group's Owner/Leaders when the anthology will be published. If it is a matter a days or a couple of weeks it may make a difference but they would still have to be removed after the short story anthology is released since the do not qualify on their own.
If the anthology is still not going to be published as a book in a month, the group should stick to it's past practices and wait until the anthology is published and then list the anthology.
They should continue that practice in order not to set a precedent where I can start a group, put my stories up as a series of messages and then enter them into the Goodreads database as actual books.
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "Once all of the stories have been posted, we'll be bundling them into anthologies that will be available to download for free."That doesn't mean that the individual stories have been/will be published separately, though. If the only "real" publication is the anthology, then the short story entries should be merged into it. Short stories don't get separate entries unless they've been published separately, so future anthology publication doesn't answer the still open question of whether or not the individual stories were published when they were posted to the group.
Preston wrote: "It would be a good idea to as the ask the Group's Owner/Leaders when the anthology will be published. If it is a matter a days or a couple of weeks it may make a difference"Nitpicking: There is no rule saying the publication date must be near future to lawfully catalog a not-yet-released book on GR.
I'd say that easily half (if not more) of the stories listed for the Love Is Always Write event are available as ebooks you can download and read (through the "Download ebook" link on the book page), and I know that there are still authors are working to put their stories up, too. Those downloadable ebooks are available to everyone, not just members of the M/M Romance Group. So no, it's not just the anthology that is published...
I believe the easiest solution would be to change the official URL where the ebooks are offered that doesn't lead to the M/M Romance Group. This way, these shorts are legitimized as proper online fiction on their own webpages instead mere posts in a
something like set up a wordpress blog where the different stories are all available?
Dee wrote: "something like set up a wordpress blog where the different stories are all available?"Yes. Exactly. LJ, Wordpress, Blogger. As long the ebooks have their own webpage. It could also be a download link like a pdf at Box.com.
"Amara wrote: "I think you're misunderstanding the manual's ebook reference. Fiction published online, whether or not it's in "actual" ebook format, should be marked as an ebook for GR purposes."I am not misunderstanding anything. The Manual clearly states in simple English under that a book can be "short stories published online if format is "ebook")"
The Librarians Manual also states as NOT A BOOK:
"all books by an author" or "all books in a series" where no published collection of these works exists"
In this case no published collection exists yet.
The question is not whether the project is laudable; it clearly is a wonderful endeavor. The question is whether or not to wait until the anthology is published rather than disregard the rules in the Manual.
If the Librarian Manual is to be disregarded the question is what kind of precedent is being set by doing so and does this mean anyone can start a group and list their group messages as books.
I believe if the Goodreads Librarians change/ignore the rule and allow this the precedent is set for every kid who thinks they can write to turn Goodreads into an amateur showcase for unpublished wannabe writers. While the M/M Romance Group is doing a good thing, others might not. It does not seem unreasonable to enforce the established rules and simple ask the M/M Group to wait until the anthology is available as they have have been willing to do in the past.
Preston wrote: "I am not misunderstanding anything. The Manual clearly state in simple English under NOT A BOOK:"short stories published online (the format should be 'ebook')"
It most certainly does not say that short stories published online are NABs. It states:
These items are books:
* repacks
* F&C Sheets
* bound sheet music, scores, librettos, etc.
* atlases
* reference books (including books on CD-ROM)
* book group discussion guides
* workbooks
* calendars or something-a-day books with additional content
* "blank" books with additional text or collectible artwork
* advanced reader copies (ARCs)
* boxed sets (sold as a boxed set with one ISBN)
* multiple distinct volumes (sold together as a set with one ISBN)
* book-length fanfiction which is complete (no WIPs, please), and self-published
* forthcoming books with only partial information
* books withdrawn from publishing if enough information was ever provided to make a book record a useful resource
* periodicals and bound comic books with ISBNs
* periodicals without ISBNs but substantially similar to books (eg, perfectbound literary magazines)
* single-issue magazines and comic books on an individual and unencouraged basis, although they should be typed as "periodical" in the work: media type field
* short stories published online (the format should be "ebook")
* audio productions, not recordings of theatrical productions (the format should be "audiobook")
* podcasts of books
i guess i'm wondering how the LiAW are different from say For I Have Sinned - which is only available online and you have to join the website in order to read it...and yet it is listed as an ebook and marked as a series book here on GR....and there are likely many other examples
Dee wrote: "i guess i'm wondering how the LiAW are different from say For I Have Sinned - which is only available online and you have to join the website in order to read it...and yet it is listed as an ebook ..."Whether the ebook is available privately or publicly is not the concern here, it is the medium they are available in that is the concern. Are posts in a message board legitimate enough to count as an ebook format?
No, I am not a Goodreads Librarian. I was an Assistant Branch Manager at a local library for several years. I don't know the specific rules for posting books and would appreciate if someone would post a link to them for everyone to read. I am going by what has been stated above.I am suprised that this thread even exists. It shouldn't matter where a story is written or posted as long as it is considered a story. Chapters posted on Livejournal, Wordpress, etc are considered stories.
As to short story and publish, look up the definitions. Last time I looked, Merriam-Webster didn't set a minimum word count and publish meant to make publicly available. The stories written for the Love is Always Write event fall under both of these categories.
The way I see it, these short stories that are listed are works of fiction. They have a beginning, middle, and end. They are not just random posts and writings. I am ashamed to think that there are people that do not considered them real works.
Lori, if you are still following this thread, if you need any help converting the LiAW stories or any others, let me know. I will help out any way I can.
Lioness7 wrote: "I don't know the specific rules for posting books and would appreciate if someone would post a link to them for everyone to read. I am going by what has been stated above."Current guidelines for what is and isn't considered a "book" for GR purposes can be viewed here.
Lioness7 wrote: "Chapters posted on Livejournal, Wordpress, etc are considered stories."GR agrees and we do catalog them.
Lioness7 wrote: "As to short story and publish, look up the definitions. Last time I looked, Merriam-Webster didn't set a minimum word count and publish meant to make publicly available. The stories written for the Love is Always Write event fall under both of these categories."
I agree but Merriam-Webster doesn't make the rules for GR. The GR staff do.
Lioness7 wrote: "I am ashamed to think that there are people that do not considered them real works."
As far I can see, no one has said these shorts are not real work. Moreover, GR is in the business of cataloging books under their private definition of books, not the business of judging which work is legit (a.k.a. real) or not.
"Amara wrote: "Preston wrote: "I am not misunderstanding anything. The Manual clearly state in simple English under NOT A BOOK:""Amara please not not misquote me.
What I wrote was: "The Manual clearly states in simple English under that a book can be "short stories published online if format is "ebook")"
In no place did NOT A BOOK appear in that sentence. Do not put words in my mouth that I did not say.
Where to start. First, Preston, you are not correct. Every story in the anthology you mention in post 25 was a database entry before it was an anthology for the Hot Summer Days Event that you reference above. The Anthology was an afterthought.
As for this event, I don't understand how these short stories (although short is relative) are any different from a freebie story on LJ or Smashwords where there are thousands of those listed here. They are a short story published online. In fact, unlike LJ in many cases, all of these stories have gone through a "publishing process". They have been beta read, edited and formatted for publishing. In these cases they are specifically formatted in a medium that fits the goodreads medium, but they have gone through the process of "publishing"
Why does anyone care about our listing of 150 books that are widely popular in the grand MILLIONS of database entries in Goodreads? These database entries have over 8880 reviews combined and these should be discounted and deleted why, exactly? So we don’t encourage other groups to grow their membership, sense of community, share their enthusiasm with other goodreads members and offer authors/writers a wide viewership? Oh, and to deter others from creating subpar reading material that can be easily published anywhere anyway?
If they are legitimate stories to this many GR Members that they feel compelled to rate them, talk about them, review them, where is the issue? This doesn't count the tens of thousands of views each story has had combined. This is only those members that stopped to rate it. I think anything read as widely can and should be considered a short story by definition.
Additionally, an anthology is not a guarantee with the event. At this time if one is published, every story will not be included in its entirety. These are short stories published on line. It shouldn’t matter.
Many of these stories are by first time or newer authors and the stories belong wholly to the authors/writers. We do not hold any copywrite. They are free to offer them however and wherever they want to offer them. Some do, some don’t. The authors are free to edit the description to point the URL to wherever they prefer.
Anyone is eligible to join our group and read them, assuming they are 18 or older (again no different than blogger or LJ). I still don’t see why goodreads is less than LJ or Smashwords in this case.
Preston wrote: "Amara please not not misquote me."For your information, I used the "reply" button to automatically place your exact words into my comment. As everyone can clearly see, you edited your comment since I posted mine in response. I did not put any words in your mouth, I replied to the ones that came out of it.
Preston wrote: "What I wrote was: "The Manual clearly states in simple English under that a book can be "short stories published online if format is "ebook")"You didn't write that in your original post. We can plainly see that you edited that post of yours 8 minutes ago.
Jen, no one (or at least me) is questioning whether these stories are real stories. We're questioning whether posts on message boards count as an ebook format to catalog these stories so on GR.Blog posts containing stories can be ebooks.
Individual webpages containing stories can be ebooks.
Downloadable documents containing stories can be ebooks.
Posts in a message board containing stories? We're not sure. Nothing in GR rules forbids it, neither does the rules accept it.
It seems to me that the rules accept it by them fitting into the category of "stories published on line". They are stories. They have gone through the publishing process. They have been posted online. When added to the database they were listed as format ebook.
I have to ask how a "book group discussion guides" is allowable (and probably only published in the book group) and we are debating these stories?
Moderatrix Lori wrote: "Preston, you're a member of our group so I'm a little surprised that you are so eager to see these stories deleted."You are correct I am a member of the M/M Romance Discussion group. I don't see how that matters in the context of the goals of the Librarians group of which I am also a member as are you.
I am not eager to see these stories deleted. "Love is Always Write" is a excellent and laudable project by the all hardworking group members who participated.
I don't want to delete the stories I just want to remove database entries for unpublished works to conform to the Goodreads Librarians Manual which states that something is Not A Book when
"all books by an author" or "all books in a series" where no published collection of these works exists"
When the M/M Romance group publishes the Anthology a published collection will exist so as I have said it would be appropriate for the M/M Romance group to continue their previous practice of publishing the Anthology first.
We have NEVER published an anthology first. It has always come months and month after the original story was published and entered into the database. We probably won't publish one that contains all the stories of this event this time around. There are too many and they stand alone just fine. The anthology was simply for ease of reading for our members and it was a complete afterthought.
If we are seriously debating if these are real stories deserving of a database record with anybody seriously considering deleting the database records, then I have to say I am very disappointed.
I think the issue here is the understanding of the criteria "published" and "online" -- and whether Goodreads Messages (or Comments on a Group) can be considered as similar as blogs or individual message. The way I see it, since Goodreads platform IS online, I think those stories can be count as online fiction.Can we just put the "Not-a-Book" or "Online Fiction" instead of ebook format, IF the story is only available in the forum?
If the story is available as downloadable ebook OR if it's being published at retailer's site (as individual story) OR if it's being released and published as Antohology, then the librarians can mark it as "ebook".
Just my two cents ...
My original post (message 1) to the Goodeads Librarians Disussion asked "Should these be considered actual books and continue to be listed as such on Goodreads?"I think the Librarians who make the decision have enough information to decide what to do so I'm no longer following this discussion because the my goal of posing the question has been fulfilled.
If you haven't read any of the stories you should take a look because there is some excellent work.
Take a look at:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...
Bye folks.
Best, Preston
If they are bundling them into an anthology, I don't see a reason to have 30 placeholder listings open. Yes they are a book, but they shouldn't be posted until they are all bundled and released as the anthology they are talking about.
There has been no decision on the anthology yet per Jen above
Goodreads Librarians Group
Books mentioned in this topic
For I Have Sinned (other topics)Stuff My Stocking: M/M Romance Stories that are Nice and… Naughty (other topics)
Their series of 130 short stories (with 20 more to come) from their event "Love is Always Write" has a few books that are in formats which can be downloaded from their group; however, the vast majority of these "books" they have entered into the Goodreads books database exist only as messages in a thread on one of this group's discussion topics.
Should these be considered actual books and continue to be listed as such on Goodreads?
Can every Goodreads discussion group put a story in its messages and then list it on Goodreads as a book?