THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
Break Out Area
As a bio it is hagiography fighting tops to the keelson. After all his sister wrote it. But if the subject is "unexploded ordinance" and things beyond, I am kinda pushing:America's First Frogman: The Draper Kauffman Story
Recently finished 'The Fleet at Flood Tide" where Kauffman is one of the main characters covered. Phrodrick wrote: "As a bio it is hagiography fighting tops to the keelson. After all his sister wrote it. But if the subject is "unexploded ordinance" and things beyond, I am kinda pushing:[book:America's First Frog..."
Liz V. wrote: "Summary on unexploded ordinance https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43061244"
I came across the above article while reading about a large bomb in a Polish canal. No one hurt when the bomb detonated during attempt to defuse remotely
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-545...
John wrote: "A long, long time ago...GI Combat and Sargent Rock were two I remember from the 60’s..."Thanks. Would you say they generally have any merit, perhaps to teach the next generation something about WWII? What about the Captain America super hero versions or the like?
Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was a big fan of Sgt. Rock, Star-Spangled War Stories, and GI Combat. Less so for Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos -- I was getting older then. They did inspire me to read more WW II history, but it was an era when WW II was prominent in movies, TV, toys, and books. Every kid knew about what their dad, uncle, neighbors, etc. had done in the war. It was a common topic especially among little boys.
Roma wrote:‘Thanks. Would you say they generally have any merit, perhaps to teach the next generation something about WWII? What about the Captain America super hero versions or the like?’
From what I remember the characters were like superheros. The settings were in actual battles so I think some young readers would have their interest peaked and want to dig deeper into the actual battles and the real history. I know that’s how I got my interest in WW2 and eventually all history.
John wrote: "Roma wrote:‘Thanks. Would you say they generally have any merit, perhaps to teach the next generation something about WWII? What about the Captain America super hero versions or the like?’
From ..."
Thanks.
Manray9 wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was a big fan of Sgt. Rock, Star-Spangled War Stories, and GI Combat. Less so for Sgt. F..."
Brings back great memories! I was a big fan of those (as a paperboy, I had lots of disposable income to spend on comic books). A great question whether the young now would find them interesting and instructive. Personally the Capt America does not lead me to look up anything WWII--although I enjoy the movies. But John is right--the characters generally were kind of super.
I also had all the Dave Dawson books too. When I got older, I remember going deer hunting and the WWII and Korea vets used their M1's. As MR9 said, WWII was all around the culture at the time.
Mike wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was a big fan of Sgt. Rock, Star-Spangled War Stories, and GI Combat. Le..."
Thanks.. I see the US Army is issuing some new comics / graphic novels as they say now, on Medal of Honor winners. But I imagine the current crop of young boys (oh yes, and girls) go for the animated smartphone based versions if they do at all. Or video games of the war.
My favorites are Sgt. Rock, Haunted Tank, Enemy Ace, Sgt Fury and His Howling Commando's, G.I Combat, there was another comic about an American WWI balloon buster but can't remember the name.
Doubledf99.99 wrote: "My favorites are Sgt. Rock, Haunted Tank, Enemy Ace, Sgt Fury and His Howling Commando's, G.I Combat, there was another comic about an American WWI balloon buster but can't remember the name."I liked "Enemy Ace" too. Baron von Hammer.
Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"In the UK in the 70's and early 80's we had a couple of weekly comics, Battle and Warlord which ran a number of serialized stories over a number of weeks, or in the best cases months or even years. A lot of these stories were pretty forgettable, but there were a lot that still stand up even now (in reprint form, in a lucky few cases). The absolute standouts, mainly because they were well researched, illustrated and written, were Johnny Red (a British pilot flying unfeasably with the Russians), Charleys War (the First World War feom the Somme to the British intervention in Russia in 1919), HMS Nightshade (a Flower class Corvette in the Atlantic, Arctic and West African waters) and Darkie's Mob, a pretty brutal pre-Apocalypse Now tale of a cut off unit in Burma.
Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"Do you know the work of Italian master Hugo Pratt?
Hugo Prattor
Micheluzzi
Also good: the adventures of Buck Danny (just one example):
Tigres Volants by
Victor Hubinon and later
Francis Bergèse who also did a series on Biggles
Biggles , tome 3 : Le Bal des SpitfireI guess you know
Steve Canyon, Vol. 1: 1947-1948 by Milton Caniff
Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was never a big comic-book reader, generally speaking; although I did read them occasionally I much preferred more substantial reading material from the moment I thought I could handle it- I started reading stuff like the Hardy Boys & Nancy Drew in kindergarten, and the Chronicles of Narnia the following year, so comic books were usually a last resort. That being said, I did read a few issues of 'G.I. Combat' and 'Sgt. Rock'. By the time I was a teenager, there were few war comics left, although I bought the first few issues of 'The 'Nam', which was a brand-new series toward the end of the 1980s. The last mentioned started out somewhat better written than most of the others, but that didn't last very long; I believe the original writer, who had served in Viet Nam, was fired after about a year, and the comic devolved into the usual sort of idiocy- every story seemed to be nothing more than stacking up dead "Commies" and then making the obligatory stop to drop off extra C rations at the local orphanage.
As to your question, particularly for many of the post 1945/Cold War era conflicts, but even with regard to the somewhat less ambiguous Second World War, comic books are by definition dumbed-down to such an extent that not only is there little opportunity for background & perspective, but even the simple facts are usually too complex to be reduced to the length of even a large comic-book. Our educational system in the U.S. already has a pronounced tendency to produce ignorant, semi-literate fools. The last thing we need is to have the teaching of history further devalued by resorting to comics as educational materials. I used to help some of the kids in my neighbourhood with their history assignments some years ago, and can therefore speak from experience- even kids from the inner-city "ghetto" are absolutely ravenous for knowledge. These kids were not "magnet-school material", were racially mixed, and had been ill-served throughout their lives by underfunded and routinely poor-performing schools (not to mention incompetent and uncaring teachers), but they were far from stupid and used to literally beg me to teach them more and more and more about history, for hours on end. I did what I could, and hopefully kindled a desire in them to do their own reading later in life, but the point is that even kids who are quite literally written off by society are perfectly capable of excelling if we only give them the competent instruction & access to knowledge that will enable them to do so.
Comic books are not the way...
Back in my day DC ruled:So of course Sgt Rock, but also Flying Cloud, Hauntred Tank and Pt Skipper -Capt. Storm. I think Black Hawk sorta straddled the line
Once Jack King Kerby and Stan the Man Lee moved up the Marvel Collection I sorta followed Sgt Fury, but it was the then "New Age Comic super heroes what had real life problems that turned me into a card carrying Marching Marvel Maniac.
I guess they did rot my brain as I only have two masters degrees and a Bach from USNA. Donno, may the rot is from only having ever attended public schools, from Kindergarten to the last degree program.
Aa for my YA books type reading the first books I can remember spending myown money on was Mike Mars, Astronaut
As for WW II history from a graphic novel I can suggest the series that begins with: Showa, 1926-1939: A History of Japan.
All this talk of war comics and no one mentions "The Unknown Soldier" or "Weird War"...or was I the only one who read those?
Marc wrote: "All this talk of war comics and no one mentions "The Unknown Soldier" or "Weird War"...or was I the only one who read those?"read them but a lot of those have slipped my mind.
Manray9 wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was a big fan of Sgt. Rock, Star-Spangled War Stories, and GI Combat. Less so for Sgt. F..."
In my view, Sgt Fury did have one redeeming quality. It was a diverse group and had a black soldier pulling combat duty. A very rare thing for the War. Although I can't say that I remember any of them as being all that good or informative. More of a gateway.
Liam wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was never a big comic-book reader, generally speaking; although I did read them occasion..."
I couldn't agree more.
And just so everyone knows, on Veterans Day this year in the US, Netflix is releasing a graphic (intensely real and amazing technology) of Alex Kershaw's book, The Liberator. I just saw the promo.It looks to me as if they used real actors then "graphiced" them, which I suppose is a new verb. Why after all that they didn't just use the real thing I'm not sure.
Rona wrote: "Thanks.. I see the US Army is issuing some new comics / graphic novels as they say now, on Medal of Honor winners. But I imagine the current crop of young boys (oh yes, and girls) go for the animated smartphone based versions if they do at all. Or video games of the war."The US Naval Institute Press is publishing some graphic novels of its own, as well. For WW2, it has just released
Stringbags by Garth Ennis. I think it's also released some of Maximilian Uriarte's work, who is (in)famous for his modern-Marine webcomic "Terminal Lance". In its Naval History magazine, it has included Medal of Honor stories for the Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard, under the Acts of Valor subtitle.
Lee wrote: "Rona wrote: "Thanks.. I see the US Army is issuing some new comics / graphic novels as they say now, on Medal of Honor winners. But I imagine the current crop of young boys (oh yes, and girls) go f..."The USNIP is releasing graphic novels? I've lived too long!
Liam wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was never a big comic-book reader, generally speaking; although I did read them occasion..."
Liam, I guess you don't read French or Dutch - Italian? - because if you did you might have a completely different opinion about what comics can and do transmit as to in depth stories...
In France and in Belgium, even the Netherlands there are numerous fine examples of comic books dealing with all aspects of the war. Not just the military and the fighting, but also espionage, civilian life - before during and after the war in Belgium, France, Germany and other countries...., the underground, of course the Shoah, but also the political background, the psychological suffering on all fronts etc. etc.
The Franco-Belgian comic book culture is much more diverse than the American and British you seem to know/think of - although in the US and the UK there also are some great books on WW2 you apparently do not know....
There was one Sgt Rock that stayed with me for decades, from 1989:What Color is your Blood?
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/sgt-ro...
André wrote: "Liam wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was never a big comic-book reader, generally speaking; although I did read ..."
André, first of all, figuratively kicking me in the balls based on the well-known stereotype that Americans are invariably ignorant of any language other than "American English" is fairly pathetic. I get really tired of that sort of thing. Fuck you and your condescending European attitude. Many of us here, including myself, never had a chance to obtain an education that would even measure up to that provided as a matter of course in the worst schools in Western Europe. In addition to which, unless one has wealthy parents or is willing to take on a lifetime of crippling debt, university is out of the question. Although I was luckier than most, having spent my early childhood in a German-speaking church & having the incredible good fortune to have two years of Latin in high school, all of my limited knowledge of Spanish & French is self-taught. In answer to your actual question, mein Deutsch ist rüstig, und paßent sehr schlecht heute, aber ich habe ein bischen dennoch, und es ist besser dann mein Franzosen; mon Francais c'est tres limité, mais suffite pour les légends d'image, par exemple... Or, in many if not most cases, for comic books. And when I come upon a word with which I am unfamiliar, I have a nice shelf of Langenscheidts & the like, as well as the grand-daddy of them all, DICTIONARIUM BIBLIOTHECARII PRACTICUM/WORTERBUCH DES BIBLIOTHEKARS in zwanzig Sprachen/THE LIBRARIAN'S PRACTICAL DICTIONARY in twenty languages Third Revised and Enlarged Edition .
Please note, by the way, that in the above post I was referring to traditional comic-books only, not the more modern "graphic novel", which did not yet exist (in the U.S., anyway) when I was a child. Also, you are correct in stating that there are comics with which I am unfamiliar, and I'm sure some of them are quite good. As I stated above, my tastes tend more to traditional books- as I have gotten older, I rarely even read any works of fiction due to the existence of innumerable works of history, biography etc. which I would like to read, and to the facts illustrated in that old saying "VITA BREVIS, ARS LONGA". I may not be truly multi-lingual, and I am obviously lacking in formal education, but for a working class autodidact I believe I've educated myself considerably better than most, thank you. If you would ever like to learn how the real world works outside your privileged existence in the EU, come to Detroit on one of your vacations and I'll be happy to show you. When I was unemployed my wife and I nearly starved to death and lost most of our teeth from malnutrition, but I easily read more than 100 books a year; now, I struggle to read half that total. During the years when I had to work 2 or 3 jobs instead of only one, I was so exhausted I could barely read at all.
Phrodrick wrote: "There was one Sgt Rock that stayed with me for decades, from 1989:What Color is your Blood?
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/sgt-ro..."
I remember that one too. The wounded German is given a blood transfusion from a black American soldier.
That reminds me of Otto Skorzeny's memoir, when he was describing how the Black American soldiers treated him noticeably better than the white ones when he was a prisoner before his war crimes trial after the war...
Manray9 wrote: "Lee wrote: "Rona wrote: "Thanks.. I see the US Army is issuing some new comics / graphic novels as they say now, on Medal of Honor winners. But I imagine the current crop of young boys (oh yes, and..."If it's any consolation Manray, Garth Ennis is probably as well read as us on here on the subject of World War Two. Think on his works more as historical fictIon with an awful lot of pictures perhaps?
Anyhow, thumbs up to the USNIP for commissioning a book about the FAA...
Liam wrote: "André wrote: "Liam wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was never a big comic-book reader, generally speaking; althou..."
Wow Liam, a little sensitive, heh? Some kind of language you're using there.
I stopped reading your post after the third sentence.
Please keep it civilized will you.
Thanks.
Just for your information - I wasn't kicking anybody anywhere and certainly wasn't and am not any of the things you imply.
It's always very surprising to have people suppose things of other people without knowing anything about them. Obviously you don't know anything about me.
I posted my thoughts because there are and have been comics - many of which have apparently not been translated - then again many others have, that you did not seem to know about.
The original post was about if someone knows comics about WW2. Since I know quite a bit about illustrators and comics I added just a few that I think might get people interested.
By the way,
Milton Caniff - an American - is considered by many US, British and European scholars and illustrators as one of the great masters of the genre.
He started drawing in the thirties; stories that took place before and during WW2: Terry and the Pirates
Later he started Steve Canyon which takes place during the Korean war and after that.
Even if you don't seem to like comics maybe other members of the group might want to take a look.
Milton Caniff
Glad that everyone has gotten that stuff off their chests, and we are being nice to each other in this discussion. Lets make sure it stays that way eh!
André wrote: "Liam wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know if anyone here reads or has read any of the WWII in comics books?"I was never a big comic-book reader, generally speaking; although I did read ..."
Interesting André- I'm aware of Tardi's It Was the War of the Trenches although I've yet to buy a copy.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Glad that everyone has gotten that stuff off their chests, and we are being nice to each other in this discussion. Lets make sure it stays that way eh!"Ahhh, and I was getting ready to sharpen my swords. You're so mean you never let me play rough.
And to be honest, I find that living in the US most individuals that go through the public school system, like me for example, do not have a firm grasp on another language. For me, it is sad on occasion since I have seen so many books in different languages that I can't find in English and would love to read.
At 57 though it would be hard for me at least to go back and start picking up new languages. Heavy Sigh. No new language and no rough stuff. Guess I will have to learn to live with disappointment.
Or maybe not. LOL.
Jonny wrote: "André wrote: "Liam wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know .."Jonny, Tardi is fabulous. Although his drawing style might not be all too appealing for people starting with the comic genre I think he is a master storyteller.
Personally I think his WW1 series, although quite heavy to digest might help people learn and understand more about the suffering in the trenches and the men's everyday lives and how that affected millions and in turn led to WW2
Tardi will stay with you forever, I'm sure.
By the way, his crime books are also fabulous.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Glad that everyone has gotten that stuff off their chests, and we are being nice to each other in this discussion. Lets make sure it stays that way eh!"Rick-
I would like to point out that I was merely responding to André's absolutely unprovoked obnoxious condescension. It ought to be abundantly clear to you and everyone else who actually reads the relevant section of this thread that André (with whom I had never previously interacted so far as I can recall) chose to address me, specifically, in a rude and condescending manner, rather than to engage with the community as a whole by responding to Rona's original question as he disingenuously claimed he had done in his subsequent post. I'll freely admit to being "a little sensitive" on the subject- not only when I am the target, but when anyone is. As far as that goes, I have a gigantic chip on my shoulder in this regard. Mea Culpa.
André-Gee whillikers, I certainly didn't mean to be uncivilised; please pardon me for using the "f-word" (quelle horreur, quelle scandale!). I was under the obviously mistaken impression that we are all adults here. I am sure you will believe me when I say that I am always impressed when someone ostentatiously claims not to have read my post (usually because they don't want to respond to what I actually said), then proceeds to set up straw-man arguments based on things I didn't say.
I also find that it is "always very surprising to have people suppose things of other people without knowing anything about them". You are correct that I don't know anything about you. As you know quite well, your Goodreads profile is set to private, and your profile picture appears to be some sort of “action figure” (it looks like ‘The Spirit’ to me, but I’m certainly no expert on comic-book characters). My profile, on the other hand, is public. My profile picture is actually a photograph of me (an old one, admittedly, but there are more recent photos in my profile as well), and I use my real name. There is a reason for this- I stand by the things I say, rather than hiding my identity and making gratuitous rude remarks to individuals about whom I know absolutely nothing. While we are on this subject, I would like to point out that I did not “imply” anything about you, nor did I intend to do so. One would think that such a civilized polyglot as yourself would understand the meaning of the word, but apparently that is not the case. What I did was to presume (based solely on your name & what you wrote, since that was all the information I had) that you are European. If in fact you are one of my fellow Americans, you are not only a pretentious, ill-mannered snob, but also a hypocritical poseur. If you come from somewhere else entirely it makes no difference whatsoever; the issue is your snobbery and gratuitous rudeness, not your nationality.
As for your ridiculous assumption that I “did not seem to know about” “many” comic-books, you don’t have the faintest clue whether I know about them or not, never mind which ones. If you had actually read my post you would realise I only mentioned certain war-themed comic-books I had read and/or owned. For the record, I am quite well aware of Milton Caniff’s work; ‘Terry and the Pirates’ has been a legendary comic-strip (and cultural reference) since long before I was born, and anyone who has read more than a few books about World War II and/or the Chinese Civil War and/or the wars in Indo-China would have seen it mentioned somewhere. In addition, I seem to remember a large coffee-table book that collected those comic-strips which was published in the late 1960s or early 1970s, right around the same time as the similar collection of ‘Little Orphan Annie’. I read a much wider variety of books when I was a child, including books like those. Regarding comic-strips, comic-books and graphic novels generally, I used to love reading the old ‘Batman’ comic books during the ‘70s (although I always hoped the Joker would win); I especially liked those in which 'The Shadow' appeared. ‘Rima the Jungle Girl’ was another one I liked back then. I’m still quite partial to the work of Jaime Hernández (and also his brothers), to which I was introduced as a teenager during the mid-1980s. Aside from ‘Love & Rockets’, other comic-books I particularly liked included ‘The Sisterhood of Steel’ by Christy Marx and Howard Chaykin’s ‘The Shadow’. I also read more “mainstream” comic-books like the various ‘X-Men’ series. There were others, of course, but I am not going to list them all. Your statement that I “don't seem to like comics” is quite frankly idiotic- besides which, once again, how the hell would you know? In actual fact, I have simply always preferred to read legitimate military history books rather than war comic-books. All other things being equal, I'll choose a traditional book over a comic-book any day of the week…
André wrote: "Jonny wrote: "André wrote: "Liam wrote: "Rona wrote: "I'd be interested to know .."Jonny, Tardi is fabulous. Although his drawing style might not be all too appealing for people starting with the..."
Thanks Andre, I'll have to pick up a copy when the Boss says it's ok...
Tardi's artwork does seem a bit blocky, although I'm mainly out of touch with comics/graphic novels for a long while now (I worked my way through University in a comic shop back in the early 1990's - if only I'd been paid by the 'why are you working here but reading a textbook?')
The best of British comics always had a bit of educational value, a throwback to the likes ofEagle in the 50's. I'm not suggesting that we got a textbook through the letterbox every Thursday, but the best stories were actually properly researched - so Johnny Red featured the 588th Night Bombers (the famed 'Night Witches') back in 1978, and Charley's War drew heavily on the likes of The First Day on the Somme and other sources. I've included a few panels from Charley's War below; not a fantastic advert for Joe Colquhoun's art, but for my money the best three panels in an eight year weekly serial.
Jonny wrote: "Tardi's artwork.."Thanks Jonny - it very much depends on the book and the story.
If think the very blocky sometimes even ugly style fits perfectly with the horrors of the trenches - and yes, it is horrific.
But then again there are Belgian and French sites with original descriptions by the doctors and nurses with pictures of the wounded.... they will leave you speechless.
By the way there is a fabulous French film on the subject (based on a book by Marc Dugain with the same title) : La Chambre des Officiers
Marc DugainTardi also illustrated the classic Voyage au Bout de la Nuit by Celine for Futuropolis/Gallimard, a great novel on soldiers returning after war, trying to adjust to civilian life...
English translation without Tardi's illustrations: Journey to the End of the Night
.
Voyage au bout de la nuitThanks for the illustration :-) Did you know that Johnny Red and Charley's War have been reprinted/reissued, both as really nice HC series?
Are you familiar withEnemy Ace: War Idyll
by
George Pratt. An interesting take on how it is all connected, WW1 up to now....So many great books :-)
André wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Tardi's artwork.."Thanks Jonny - it very much depends on the book and the story.
If think the very blocky sometimes even ugly style fits perfectly with the horrors of the trenches -..."
Thanks Andre - I'll have to go with the translation, languages were never my thing (although some of our other British members might allege that English is my serving language...)
I'm aware of the reprints Andre... Charley has been re-reissued as a three volume paperback run, with the original colour pages reinstated (British comics were printed in black and white, with colour covers and centre pages. Enterprising parents could claim they were comics and colouring books!). I've inflicted both series on my eldest, and they enthused them as much as they originally did me.
I've heard of Enemy Ace, but not actually seen a copy.
IMHO one of the oddest of the WW II comic book was a English seriesJohnny Red: Falcons' First Flight.
The premise is taken from a true story and turned into a Series with some legs.
Fact: in WWII a lone British Hurricane was launched from the decks of a merchant convoy ship on the Murmansk run. It was always know that this kind of air cover was a 1 way mission. This pilot made it into Russia and eventually was returned to England.
Not Fact: stuck in Russia, he became a fighter pilot for the Russians mostly in his British aircraft.
It ran for a number of years- 1975-1988 I think.
IMHO the artist put a lot of effort into authentic depictions of WW II machines. Plotting however...
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John wrote: "I just came across a recent Daily Mail article about a Russian P-39 found and raised from the Black Sea. Being technically challenged I can’t seem to copy the link but if you Google Black Sea P-39 ..."