Is the idea of "Lem"ing a book bad for the S&L Community?

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Rickg wrote: "Not a bad thought jenny... but you make the classic mistake that posting constructive criticism is trolling. It's not. No one here is trolling unless, perhaps, you are trying to.."
Nope, you tried connecting two statements that had nothing to do with one another. Being critical should be welcomed in a reading community, and I don't think anyone does it "wrong." I personally don't mind lemming discussions, and when I dislike a thread, I just don't read it. It's simple!

Tom and Veronica lem books too, after all.

As far as trolls, that is general advice that goes with the idea of a vibrant community, not anything to do with criticism.

[Travis]

People who brag about lem-ing a book are missing the point. It doesn't prove your discerning taste or the lack of it in others. Novels should be read for pleasure. If a book pleases you, finish it. If not, lem and move on. Its neither a good thing or a bad thing to lem. No brag and no shame.

[Jane]

Travis wrote: "People who brag about lem-ing a book are missing the point. It doesn't prove your discerning taste or the lack of it in others. Novels should be read for pleasure. If a book pleases you, finish it...."

I very much agree

[Gordon]

For what it's worth, I don't think I have yet seen anyone actually brag about lemming anything. The original concern looks like it's someone thinking that things are moving in that direction, but that doesn't mean that it's gotten to that point yet.

[Mike]

Mark wrote: "Life is too short to spend on a bad book. But stopping at Chapter 2 is just lazy. As a general guideline, I try to give a hardback at least 100 pages and a paperback at least 50. If the author ha..."

I agree completely. I don't blame the author because I don't like a book for whatever reason. I don't rate a book I didn't finish and I don't post in or read Lem threads in general. I pick up a new book (for me) and start reading.

[Heather]

I found it interesting to read some of the struggles with Tigana because it reinforced my perspective that the plot development was problematic. People giving a good try of enough pages are relevant but then only to say a few choice reasons why they let it go beyond just not liking it. I decided not to do LW but why would I think the community cares about why?

[Travis]

Gord wrote: "For what it's worth, I don't think I have yet seen anyone actually brag about lemming anything. The original concern looks like it's someone thinking that things are moving in that direction, but t..."

True enough but sometimes getting defensive can give written words a similar feel. I don't think too many (if any) people are actually bragging so much as strongly defending their choice. The flip side are the people who seem to apologize for it. I just want people to see it for the non-event it is and read what they want.

[Ken]

Tassie Dave wrote: "You are not truly lemming a book unless you toss it off a cliff into the sea. :-)"

Of course there's still Amazon, or Barnes and Noble or the library, so it can still call to you unless you have it wiped from your memory.

For me, it kind of depends on what my brain cells want at the time. Sometimes I want mental bubble gum and sometimes I want some depth. I was able to blast through War and Peace because although it's a burner, it's written to be read easily. Moby-Dick, A Tale of Two Cities, or (S+L-wise) any of the Neal Stephenson from the last few years has been put aside until I finally wade through. Reamde took me forever. The lemmed books are those that found there way back onto my bookshelf or into my kindle archive, but they still call. Guess if I just checked them out from the library I could just forget, but since I own them I'll get back someday.

[Art]

I never make a conscious decision to lem a book, but there are books I have started and never finished. I have such a big list of books I want to read I always pick up which one I'm most enthusiastic about and that interest drives me through the book and makes me pick it up again. If I'm reading something that's not for me my interest will drift and I may pick up another book and before I know it I haven;t read the first book in over a month and will probably never go back to it (but that's not to say I give up on hard books. If they still have my interest I push on)

What I am saying is I don't think I have every slammed down a look and announced I'm through with it. If a books not for me it just drifts back onto my bookcase and eventually finds itself in a charity shop, hopefully where it will find the type of person it was meant for.

[Ian]

So I think I better understand the complaints here having just read a certain other lem thread.

I don't think the problem is lemming, as I implied in my other post I want everyone to be honest.

I think the problem is basically when are people using 'lemming' to troll and just be obstructive and negative. That comes down to established rules and moderation.

Seeing the group rules

"Please introduce yourself in the welcome thread!

New? Please read the FAQ:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

When making a new discussion, make sure to put it in the correct folder category!

Please don't post spoilers unless explicitly stated in the heading of your discussion!"

nothing really outlines expected level of civility, positivity or anything else people may be expecting from the community.

And, as its the internet, we all know that despite our best ideas that adults all should be able to get along and be nice, the larger a community gets the more noise and negativity it attracts.

So if we have certain expectations they need to be clearly outlined in the rules, and then enforced by moderation. Moderation is a tedious, thankless and time consuming job to get right.

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Ian, I think this is a great point. Perhaps T&V could delegate forum moderation as they have delegated book discussion leadership? Someone who would filter out trolls and encourage civil discourse (but not stand in the way of opinions, even negative ones)? I'm just not sure they would have the time!

[Nathan]

To quote Voltaire, some people are so discerning they do not like anything.

When talking about lem'ing a book, I usually look for two things: one how much of the book they read, and why they skipped it, e.g. "I lemmed The World is Flat about halfway through because of the author's bloviating style, and his annoying tendency to state the obvious as if it was a deep, eureka type realization. It was as of Friedman jumped out of his tub and suddenly realized people want to make more money for the first time of his life."

[Ian]

Agree with the original poster I think there is a bragging tone to a lot of the 'lem' threads. Of course one can just ignore those threads but I do find them a bit irritating

It's not like we are picking very obscure books most of them are pretty mainstream and very readable. Lemming should be a real exception not a race to see who can trash the book first.

in general I thought the point of a book club was to read the book and then discuss it...maybe my mistake :-)

[Kamil]

I can honestly say I lemmed sanderson's Mistborn. I confess i've been thgrough only something like 50 pages, but the world's construction just didn't speak to me. I really appreciate sanderson's skill but this book was like a prison. I just couldn't dive into it. I tried many times but whith no bether result. maybe if i wore white hooded tunics ( the kind of pointy hoods that cover the face) i'd like it.
Lemming a book doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it would be wise and fruit-bearing if the lemmer knew why he lemmed it. Just because one doesn't like it at first, it doesn't mean it's reason to drop the book down a shreader

[Bryek]

I like the lem book threads. I don't find them braggy or negative in any way. Seeing books on there that I personally lemmed that others did as well almost validates your own lem. It also gives examples of books that I was iffy about and lets me know what other people think of them as well.
I honestly like them the best because people aren't as fanboy about these books as you would find in a normal thread. You can voice your dislikes of lets say ASoIaF and not be burned at the stake for it.
I don't brag about lemming, lemming to me is very disapointing. I don't htink giving something a name is really that big of an issue, its just a lot easier when you have a nice little name that sums it up so nicely.

[Bryek]

Ian wrote: "It's not like we are picking very obscure books most of them are pretty mainstream and very readable. Lemming should be a real exception not a race to see who can trash the book first"

This is exactly why I like the threads. It could be something that EVERYONE loves but someone couldn't bare to read it. I like reading the why. I like to think back on the books I loved and go "oh yea, i see where your comin from"
I honestly think people just don't like it when their thoughts are chalenged on the awesomeness of a particular book

[Jonathon]

A lot of what I've seen in the Lemming threads is more "Read chapter 1, lemmed it" rather than "Tried hard to read this, got this far and lemmed it because..."

Personally, I have no issue with threads about why a book's been lemmed, but I think it needs to be a discussion of why a reader has lemmed a book rather than just being all "Lemmed"

[Bryek]

Jonathon wrote: "A lot of what I've seen in the Lemming threads is more "Read chapter 1, lemmed it" rather than "Tried hard to read this, got this far and lemmed it because..."

but to be honest, do you read all those ones? i just skip em.

[Jonathon]

Kp wrote: but to be honest, d..."

I see sorta the first dozen or so and after that I just give up reading them.

[Amber Dawn]

The term makes me a bit sad only because I actually love Stanislav Lem. But I've never read the book that spurred the name... I don't think it'll cause more of a behavior that isn't already happening. And the great thing about a forum is that if a topic's heading icks you out.. you don't have to go in there!

[Ulmer Ian]

Kamil wrote: " I tried many times but whith no bether result. maybe if i wore white hooded tunics ( the kind of pointy hoods that cover the face) i'd like it. "
wait wait wait, what?

Why would KKK folks like the Mistborn universe? Or did you mean parading Spanish Catholics? I honestly didn't see a racial element, the nobility and skaa have the classic lord/peasant relationship. And it was nice to see a book explicitly regarding downtrodden peasants (as opposed to Tigana, which was really more about finding lords who are fair to their peasants....)

I could see why someone could have trouble getting through Mistborn. It's a slow beginning and the books are quite long. It was beachtime reading for me though, so I liked long. :) Just don't grok you seeing racism!

[Boots]

That's a good example of why lemming a book is bad. The Mistborn series was against slavery and racism, not for it. One of the last groups to endorse the Mistborn series would be the KKK, and I think even parading Spanish Catholics would have a hard time endorsing it considering how many Mormon references are in it.

[William]

Jenny beat me to my point. I would take the lemming threads as places to encourage readers to completed the book. My wife is reading a book that she was considering lemming until a coworker said that book gets better but you have to suffer the first half to enjoy it.

[Rick]

Darren wrote: "I agree with Jenny. Also, the truth is that threads about lemming have "lem" in the title. They're easy to avoid.

And Rickg, I think you missed Jenny's point."
I did miss Jenny's point. I can't even blame lack of coffee. Oops...

But while threads about lemming do tend to be obvious and so one can avoid them, seeing a lot of threads about lemming a book/not liking a book can give a forum a certain slant that can be a turnoff. To be clear, not everyone should feel obligated to read everything to the bitter end nor should they refrain from saying that they didn't like something, but honestly, a LOT of threads in the past few months seem to have been kind of downers and that gives the community a slightly 'complainy' feel. Maybe I just started reading here when the group hit a couple of books that don't generally resonate (Rule 34/Hyperion/1Q84).

This month is actually very different as, one notable thread aside, people seem to be talking about Leviathan Wakes in a generally engaged, interested fashion. So much so that I bought it last night and am about halfway through.


I like reading the why. I like to think back on the books I loved and go "oh yea, i see where your comin from"
I honestly think people just don't like it when their thoughts are chalenged on the awesomeness of a particular book

I agree with the first sentence, not really with the second. If someone really give a book a chance, can't get into it, stops and posts that AND WHY, the ensuing discussion can be interesting. However, that really presumes that they did give it a decent chance (not 20 pages) and that they post something that does spark discussion (not "I didn't like it").

The OP's point, though, wasn't about when/how to lem something, but about the effect of lemming on the S&L community.

[Jeff]

Rickg wrote: "The OP's point, though, wasn't about when/how to lem something, but about the effect of lemming on the S&L community. ."

Thanks Rick - that is indeed my worry. As I said, I completely understand that not everyone will gel well with a given book, and I don't mean to say that people should *never* stop reading a given book - it's a free world, and you can do as you please! I am only concerned that, as mentioned by quite a few people, if the predominant discussions about a book are about why people are *not* reading the book, then is that a detrimental force on the community overall? I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong answer ...

[Andy]

Jeff wrote: "Rickg wrote: "The OP's point, though, wasn't about when/how to lem something, but about the effect of lemming on the S&L community. ."

Thanks Rick - that is indeed my worry. As I said, I complete..."

Jeff, I agree. I read through the Leviathan Wakes Lem thread and I was disheartened.

I thought about it and I am with Jenny now, lets just drown out the "Lemness" with good, constructive threads. Lets have the best discussions be about the book rather than about why not to read it. Anyone can find a million reasons not to do something, lets work to give them reasons to give it a try.

There are a lot of us here now, very few are vocal about disliking books, most of us love to read, and love to read new and different and sometimes challenging books. Lets change the tone by being productive and prolific (and courteous) posters.

PS I envision my post to be read like the St. Crispin's Day speach from Henry V :) like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-yZNM...

[Jenny (Reading Envy)]

Powers for good! *triumphant fist pump, and I dunno, trumpet music?*

[Micah]

Ooohhhh can we have a parade? If I know one thing about sci-fi/fantasy worlds is tht when good triumphs there is always a parade. I can't wait!!!

[Ian]

There should be threads about lemming the lem threads where everyone talks about how they got half way through the first post and couldn't make it through the rest.

[Scott]

Here's a thought to kick around.

I, too, am fairly new to S&L (started with Hyperion), and I must say that I find all the lem threads to be negative and demoralizing. For instance, look at the number of posts to the LW lem thread. Now, compare the number of posts to threads actually discussing the book other than dumping on it. (Disclaimer: the LW lem thread is all OVER the place, topic-wise, descending even to a heated debate about methods of martial arts training. Disclaimer #2: ONE of the posts in that thread is actually from me. It's a short post, saying, "Book discussion, anyone? That might be interesting...")

Given that an increasing number of posts to lem threads seem to be less a discussion of the merits of the selection, and more a place where excess spleen may be vented (or perhaps a deficiency in dietary fiber intake) and thus giving the community a "complainy feel" (in the words of a poster above), what about the following idea:

Resolved: Any and all lem threads pertaining to a given month's selection will be started no earlier than the last week of that month.

Benefit #1: It will encourage group members to give the book more of a fair chance, not being dissuaded by nay-sayers.

Benefit #2: It will still provide a place for those who had honest difficulties with a book to discuss those difficulties together. They will have the opportunity to know that they weren't alone. At the same time, the discussion will likely be deeper, because the lem'ers will likely have spent more time with the book before discarding it. They will also have more time to formulate their thoughts before the lem thread's start date, thus contributing to the potential quality of the discussion.

Benefit #3: Trolls may be encouraged to spend their...energies...elsewhere (please see above comment concerning deficient fiber intake), because most readers who truly enjoyed the book will have moved on to the next month's selection. They will find their victim pool is much fewer, and those with legitimate and intelligent beefs with the book will find a troll's comments irrelevant and easy to ignore.

Discuss!

[Casey]

Look, I don't like people dumping on a book any more than most folks. I possess a deep-rooted love for literature. But putting so many restrictions on what other people can and can't do with respect to voicing their opinions, good or bad, is in itself, restricting expression. Isn't it?

I wholeheartedly agree, book clubs are meant to expose a person to literature that they might not normally discover on their own. But is it a book club's duty to enforce personal preference or to restrict book-hating assholes from being book-hating assholes?

I'm guessing we all can point to posts where we know a blowhard is just spouting off and trying to get attention. Equally so, I'm sure we all can recognize when someone is just frustrated with a book they genuinely aren't into. I don't quite see why this is such a huge issue. Ignorance attracts ignorance and if people want to boast of their lemlings, how does it impact those who are able to make up their own mind?

I'm not trying to be funny here. But trying to come up with so many ways to control something that can't be controlled seems a mismanagement of positive energy.

[JoJo]

I have personally never walked away from a book no matter how much I wasn't enjoying it. I think it's just a personality trait, my need to complete anything I start. Some books/series have made me glad I have this quirk, because I found the later pages/books to be enjoyable.

[Bryek]

Scott wrote: "Resolved: Any and all lem threads pertaining to a given month's selection will be started no earlier than the last week of that month.

Benefit #1: It will encourage group members to give the book more of a fair chance, not being dissuaded by nay-sayers."

By not allowing a book to be discussed in a lem thread that isnt started until the end of the month won't make people try to read farther into the book. To be honest, they will put the book down whenever they want to and probably get annoyed that they can't talk about it. then there will be "why can't I make my Lem thread?" threads. I do not see the difference between a lem thread at the beginning of the month and a thread discussing the end of the book at the beginning of the month. People should get to discuss whenever they decide to discuss and not be limited to a certain time zome.

Casey, that is exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't put the words together so elegantly.

[Jim]

I only use the term "Lemming" if I plan to go read it later but just can not get into it now. Someone gave me a list of top SF books and Gray Lensman is on the list. I got to that book and read the prologue alone and decided to lem the book until I had read the first 3 books in the series. I absolutely intend to read the book, just not right now.

To me, this seems like how Veronica uses the term "Lemming." I know she wanted to read the Stanislaw Lem book Tom gave her, she just couldn't get into it. And later, when she cleans her bookshelves or under the bed or wherever and finds that book, she will try it again.

Here on Goodreads I made sure to put "books I have Lemmed" as a bookshelf in my list, just so I remember the ones I will try again later.

IMHO, Lemming a book doesn't mean to Lepton a book, if I may coin a new phrase that means I read a chapter and then decided I would rather put a wild badger down my shorts than to continue on reading this pile of excrement. And that is what a lot of the "Lem Threads" feel like to me.

[Jane]

Jim wrote: "I only use the term "Lemming" if I plan to go read it later but just can not get into it now. Someone gave me a list of top SF books and Gray Lensman is on the list. I got to that book and read the..."

I really like the way you wrote this Jim I wish that everyone else would view it as you do and move on and I love the last paragraph and so agree with the sentiments!!

[Patricia]

I think the Lem discussion can go both ways. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

When we were reading Hyperion, I was among the people who lemmed the book. Now, I am one of those people who tries her hardest to finish a book. I feel bad when I don't make it to the end, even if I had to struggle to get there. I think Hyperion was actually the first book I lemmed. The fact there was a thread where people discussed why they lemmed the book actually made me feel a bit better about myself, seeing I wasn't alone.
Last month I also had a bit of a tough time getting into Tigana. There was a thread that started out as encouragement to people who considered lemming the book. While eventually it became fairly saturated with people merely stating they had lemmed it, I ignored those posts, focused on the encouragement and finished the book. I was glad I did because I ended up really enjoying it.

In the end it comes down to everybody's own mindset. The people who are unwilling to finish a book they don't (immediately) like will lem it, as is their right. The people who want to make it to the last page of the book, no matter what, will do so. Lem threads or not.

To me it's not all that different from coming on here, reading book reviews before or while reading a book and deciding whether or not to read or continue reading a book. The only difference is that it's been given a name by Veronica and it's more centralized and visible here. So while I do understand the OP's point of view, I think lemming and the discussion of 'why' is actually a natural part of a bookclub.

[Rick]

"...I think lemming and the discussion of 'why' is actually a natural part of a bookclub. "

I don't think anyone, even the OP, disagrees with that. It was the nature of the lems, not the fact of them. Saying "I don't know, I can't get into this, (some stuff about why)" is very different from "Eh, read 20 pages. Lemming."

[Patricia]

Rickg wrote: ""...I think lemming and the discussion of 'why' is actually a natural part of a bookclub. "

I don't think anyone, even the OP, disagrees with that. It was the nature of the lems, not the fact of t..."

Understood. I was just trying to find the right words to edit and mention that in my post when your reply popped up. It's 1AM here, my brain stops functioning, my apologies (also for this post) ;) But that's something I also compare to coming to GR and reading reviews; some people will have given a book a fair shot, some will have given up after the first chapter. Some will express their view very well while others leave a review that just said 'this writer sux, gave up after 20 pages'.

I feel like that's part of dealing with different people from different backgrounds. It's the part where my own background and point of view come into play when I assess what kind of value I give a certain post or review. I may not agree with the kind of words or tone they use to express themselves or the reasoning behind giving up on the book, but whether or not I let that influence me is well... up to me. As it is for all other members.
Which is why I don't feel like it's potentially bad for the community, even though the kind of tone that's being used goes against MY personal pov. If that makes any sense.

[Amber Dawn]

Patricia... I like your words. And your cat pictures.

[Jeff]

I think the threads help others not feel bad about not finishing a particular book.

I read for enjoyment, and if it starts to be an effort to get through it, I put the book aside. That doesn't make me a bad person. But some people will give you guff or try to push you (don't worry it gets better). Those people are antithesis of the braggarts.

Personally I think the last thing we need is an effort to suppress negative comments about a book so that everything is rainbows and strawberries.

[Rick]

Jeff wrote: "I think the threads help others not feel bad about not finishing a particular book.

I read for enjoyment, and if it starts to be an effort to get through it, I put the book aside. That doesn't mak..."

Once again, NO ONE here has suggested that people should feel bad about lemming a book. What we're asking is that 1) you give it a fair chance and 2) if you lem it and want to post about it, talk in some substantive manner about what didn't work for you. That's all. No one is trying to make everything 'rainbows and strawberries' at all. But, frankly, if someone is consistently not willing to try new things, what's the point of being in a book club where we read things that are new to us? If you're not willing to talk about why something didn't grab you, what's value does posting that you quit a book bring to the group?

People can lem a book after 5 pages and for no reason at all if they want - but posting that doesn't add value to the group. Negative evaluations with substance do... and should not be looked down on at all.

[Kristen]

Part of the problem with using a term like "lemming" is that not everyone is going to get the same meaning from what you say. I can honestly say I've never " lemmed" a book .. Cause frankly I don't think it's a true picture of anything. Does it mean hating a book? Or saving it for later? I've heard people use it to mean both. Seems more descriptive and helpful to others who want to know how you felt about a book, to actually say how you felt about it

Use your words! As I used to say to my son when he was a toddler :)

Not that I'm saying I don't think anyone should use it. I just am saying I might think you are saying something you didn't exactly mean if you don't elaborate.

[Kim]

To me it means quitting a book permanently for whatever reason. If I think that at some point, no matter how distant, I'll pick it back up then it's only hold in my mind.

[Jim]

I know that I depend upon recommendations from friends to discover new authors. Also I use anthologies sometimes.

I haven't been here too long (been listening to the podcast much longer) but I do depend upon Tom & Veronica's recommendations as well. And if members here don't like a book for particular reasons then it might be helpful to others to avoid spending the money and time on a book they won't like.

I was reading the Dune prequels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson a few years ago. I realized I didn't like some of the writing as well as a strange bi-chapter summary (every two or three chapters the writer would summarize everything that happened recently, almost as if the story had been serialized). When I mentioned this to my friend Jack he asked me why I was reading it if I didn't like it (I have hated Kevin Anderson's work for several years now). "Life is too short to read bad books" he told me and I realize it's true.

So anything we can do to help each other not read books we won't enjoy is useful IMHO.

[Matthew]

I have sort of noticed this as well. With the influx of people coming on board due to the video show, there are bound to be people who don't like books. But the Lem'd book title almost makes it where people feel the need to proclaim that they do not like the book. The forums have quite a few of these threads which could give the impression that this group is just a bunch of disgruntled haters.