The Sword and Laser discussion
Is the idea of "Lem"ing a book bad for the S&L Community?
I agree. Maybe you didn't like a book up to ch. 2, or 5, or 10...but who knows what the ending might do for you. I feel like unless you finish a book and can look at it as a whole you can't really comment on anything more than "I didn't like it up to ch,2 or 5 or..." And yes I think giving the act of not finishing a book a title makes it something to aspire to (for some at least). It makes a reader sound sharp and discerning, maybe even cut throat.
I grant, however, that this is only my opinion and I have a hard time not finishing books, even the ones I don't like. An unfinished book haunts me until I finally read the last page (which is sometimes a relief).
I think the term lem has evolve to something that wasn't. Before it was when you left a book to finished latter, or something like that, it didn't mean you dislike it and burn it...
I think giving the act of not finishing a book a title makes it something to aspire to (for some at least). It makes a reader sound sharp and discerning, maybe even cut throat. I absolutely agree. I think we've got a big enough community here that nobody should feel forced into reading a book they really dislike - there will always be enough people who did read the whole book to keep the discussions going - but the "lem threads" have this bizarre bragging-rights tone to them that really puts me off.
Alterjess wrote: " but the "lem threads" have this bizarre bragging-rights tone to them that really puts me off."THat phrases it well. It's the bragging aspect of it that I dislike too and what I think makes it a dangerous trend. I think people will be quicker to drop a book they might eventually like or come back to.
I'm relatively new here, but I only consider a book to be lemmed if I have no intention of going back & finishing it. I read strictly for pleasure. The pleasure of a book club is twofold: finding good books you may not have chosen for yourself; and discussing the book with others. If you want to get the most out of the discussions, you should at least try to finish the book. That said, it shouldn't feel like another dreaded homework assignment. While I would certainly encourage people to read enough of the book to give it a fair chance (50 - 60 pages should be enough to get past the introductions & setup & into the meat of the story), if it gets to the point where you would prefer to gouge your eves out rather than turn another page, by all means put it down & move on to something else.
I don't like lemming a book, I see it as a shame on the books side, as well as letting myself down from a readers perspective.I had to lem A Feast for Crows recently, I'm a huge ASOIAF fan and was disappointed that I couldn't get through it.
But life's too short to read the vast amounts of books available, shouldn't waste time struggling through one you're not enjoying. :)
For me seeing the lem thread and people who had lemmed the same book I was struggling with was encouraging. I don't like feeling that I am the only one who doesn't like a particular book and the lem threads let me know others had the same problem I did.I don't see it as something to aspire to, but when you are reading for fun it should be fun. If you find a book frustrating or annoying and decidedly not fun to read its time to lem it and move on to something more enjoyable.
Ohhh please - how many of you have turned off a movie or tv program before it was done? It doesn't mean you're ADD, but simply have a notion of your tastes, and enough experience to know you're not getting/going to get your "bang for buck" from it. This is not to say you should walk away just because it's slow/difficult - some books/styles are going to be acquired tastes. However, there are plenty of books/movies/tv shows that don't click for you, particularly if they are badly written (IYHO). It's a part of valuation. There's a distinct difference between being challenged by a book, and dragging yourself, like a snail, along the edge of a straight razor.
I don't think anyone was suggesting people should be forced to read a book they don't enjoy. I try to finish every book I start because I find not finishing more frustrating than making it to the end, but this a personal decision not a dictate for others. But I do think that in some cases what started out as a thread (host of threads) in which people could discuss books they could not make it the finish with has become a place to glorify in how many books have been tossed aside.
A term for a book that you completed despite it being tough to get through that would be seen as a badge of honor? Hmm...Tolkien'd?
I broke my no threads with lem in the subject line rule, but I couldn't help myself. :)but the "lem threads" have this bizarre bragging-rights tone to them that really puts me off.
That's exactly my feeling. It feels as if its the cool thing to abandon a book and then brag about it. I've been half tempted to go back through the various book discussions and take a tally of how many and who have abandoned a book and look for patterns. Sadly that would require a lot more time and effort than I have available.
I do think it would be neat to setup polls for the books we read. That way we could maybe get a more realistic picture of how people are rating the book and how many are abandoning it. Are a majority of the people really disliking the books that much, or is it just a very vocal minority?
I know its a dampener on enthusiasm when the lem threads show up before the official start dates.
Note - I have no problems with someone not liking a book and wanting to discus why they don't like a book. I do have problems with people throwing hissy fits because the book chosen isn't the book they wanted.
There's nothing wrong with lem'ing a book, even in a book club. Sometimes its poorly written and/or drags on too long before getting completely enthralling. Sometimes its a matter of taste or patience for the reader. It's fine. The occasional bragging about lem'ing though was actually pretty offputting to see as a newer member though. Especially the one for Leviathan Wakes that didn't even have the poster explain that she at least tried to read it in a store and just didn't like it until her second or third post in her own thread about lem'ing pre-purchase or pre-library loan.
I really like the term lem for not finishing a book I think its kinda cute and it and other phrases/terms makes me feel part of the sword and laser community.I actually feel bad if i do lem a book I feel kind of guilty and its not often that I do lem a book as sometimes you can force yourself to the half way point in a book and then really get into the story, though that didnt happen with gabriels ghost I had to force myself through all the book and veronica knows where im coming from there! Realistically though there are bound to be some books that I will really dislike and will lem such is life so for me lem is here to stay.
I like the term lemming and what it stands for, but I also think it has been used for cases that I wouldn't call lemming. Lemming in the original context was always considered giving up on a book at least half way in or something along the lines. It always implied some time spent trying to struggle through it and deciding to give up when it turned out it just wouldn't work.In a book club as large as this one I think it's fair to assume that there are always people who don't like the book and won't read it at all or give up sooner or later. I think that's okay and wouldn't worry too much about it.
Yet I don't especially appreciate any early lemming threads for two reasons: First, lemming in this context is usually not what I would considered lemming, it's mostly "Didn't sound like it was for me, so I won't read it".
Secondly and more importantly I also think that it sends a negative vibe for the group. If you don't like the book, fine, don't read it. If you started and decide you don't like it later on, feel free to start a thread and discuss the issues you had with the book.
I don't believe that lemming is either cool or uncool, it's just a thing that happens and if you have something worthy to say about what made you stop reading. For all others I'd say, please ignore the threads that you feel are too negative. As long as I've been here it has been a marvelous group of avid readers and I'd like it to stay that way.
Jeff wrote: "OK - just a theory here after reading a few threads on people not finishing books, but I am worried that now the idea of not finishing a book has a cool sounding label, have some people come to see..."For me sometimes it just happens. We're busy people, lots of things draw on our intentions. My approach to book reading has lately aligned itself with my approach to video games. New and exciting titles are constantly coming out, however we always make time for the ones that have impacted us.
I've lemmed books, heck I've lemmed some good books. And there have been times I've un-lemmed them later. I see your point about early-lemming though, I think this is more close-mindedness than anything, and I try to have an open mind about new books, even though there are specific things that attract me more than others. Having an open mind is a crucial part of being in a book club, in my opinion, and will always foster positive experiences for the reader and community. There are times though when books don't cut it for a reader and that's ok too.
Mod
Tassie Dave wrote: "You are not truly lemming a book unless you toss it off a cliff into the sea. :-)"
Or setting fire to it in a ritual cleansing.
Or setting fire to it in a ritual cleansing.
Mike wrote: "A term for a book that you completed despite it being tough to get through that would be seen as a badge of honor? Hmm...Tolkien'd?"
While I wouldn't feel any badge of honour for lemming a book (I'd feel ashamed I couldn't finish it) I do like this idea. Let me try this out:
I really want to Tolkien Tigana so that I can get onto Leviathan Wakes.
Yes, that works I think. :D
Mike wrote: "A term for a book that you completed despite it being tough to get through that would be seen as a badge of honor? Hmm...Tolkien'd?"
How 'bout Tolstoy'd?
tolkien'd and tolstoy'd are making me lol but no no no I gotta be faithful to lem!!
I feel that the concept behind "Lem" has been really overused lately. Almost to the point of it overshadowing the reason we are all here, to read, appreciate and discuss books. I'm getting tired of seeing so many Lem-threads, especially those which spring up up before the monthly discussion has even begun.In saying that though I don't have a problem with those who do give up on a book. People should never feel obligated to complete a book. This group is here for the enjoyment of books and if you're not enjoying it then you shouldn't force yourself to continue. I've ever given up on one book in disgust but there's others that I just grew bored with and put down that I'll probably never pick up again. It doesn't bother me as there are countless other books out there to read.
So I don't believe people should be boasting, but they also should not be ashamed or worried to give up a book. And if you're going to start a thread about it at least give a thought-out reason why, not just "it's stupid".
Life is too short to spend on a bad book. But stopping at Chapter 2 is just lazy. As a general guideline, I try to give a hardback at least 100 pages and a paperback at least 50. If the author hasn't managed to at least pique my interest by then, the fault is with the author, not me.
I don't think people should be forced to finish books, but even though I LOVE books and always have, I know there are a few in my past that I almost didn't finish. Had I dropped them at Chapter 2 or 3, I would've lost something wonderful with which I ended up falling in love. Yes, there were one or two that I didn't like even though I finished them, but if you don't give a book a real fighting chance, you could be losing something awesome.
Dawn wrote: "Yes, there were one or two that I didn't like even though I finished them, but if you don't give a book a real fighting chance, you could be losing something awesome."Or you could just be wasting your time. Or people can just decide for themselves whether they want to stop reading and should not feel pressured to finish it. It's this sort of guilt-tripping that I don't like to see. People shouldn't be feeling guilty for not finishing a book.
Take a deep breath. Now hold it. And release it, slowly through the mouth and feel the gritty tension leaving your system.If people want to read a book, they will. And if they want to stop reading a book, they will. I can't imagine that lemming a book is cool or uncool but rather an individual decision.
Personally I find it an act of sheer lunacy to read a book for pleasure if the only pleasure derived is from completion, unless you are at University. Equally so, if people are trying to wear their lemmings as badges of honor or the like, then they are just so many naked fools dancing around tall flames chanting "burn baby burn!" Pay them little mind and they will soon get tired.
But this is all part of what makes life and literature interesting. One person's lem is another person's love.
@Casey - Book clubs are meant to challenge you to try new material at least part of the time. So while the act of reading in a book club can be for pleasure it won't always be so. Sometimes it will be for the experience of reading a book you may not have read otherwise. In other words a book club should help open you to new authors and the like you wouldn't have thought to try on your own.I personally think if you are going to speak about a book in a book club you need to A - specify how far you have read or B - have read the whole book. I also feel it is a disservice to authors to bash a full book when you've only read 50 pages. That at least to me is laziness and frankly rude. If you have only read 50 pages it only qualifies you to speak about those 50 pages and not the full book.
Sometimes 50 pages tells you all you need to know. If those 50 pages are badly written and horrible to read I wouldn't expect anyone to continue.And just because this is a book club does not mean one has to read for other than pleasure. I joined this club because I like reading sci-fi and fantasy books. I will only ever read them for pleasure. If I'm not getting pleasure or enjoyment from reading it then I will stop reading.
I don't think anyone's objected to people giving up on books they aren't enjoying - the issue is when the first few threads on a new book all have "Lem" in the title as though not reading the group pick is something to show off about.
@Kim - I don't object to people not reading a book but I personally don't care about your opinion on anything but the portion of the book you read. I hate the fact that people rate books they don't finish.
@Nick – I agree! book clubs are designed in principle to expose you to material you might not normally discover on your own. I didn't think I suggested anything different in my post?
@Casey - I was just pointing out pleasure isn't going to be guaranteed. At least not at first. I was forced to read Shakespeare in high school. I didn't appreciate it at first but as I worked at it the experience became something that I wouldn't have done on my own and I enjoyed once I got past the writing style and language to which I was unaccustomed. Given this isn't always the case but when it happens its totally worth the bad books you have to go through.
Nick wrote: "@Kim - I don't object to people not reading a book but I personally don't care about your opinion on anything but the portion of the book you read. I hate the fact that people rate books they don'..."I think their opinion can be as valid as anyone else's if they provide reasoning behind their decision.
@Nick – Understood and I agree. But I think it's silly if the only pleasure you get out of reading a book is the actual act of finishing it. Reading shouldn't be an act of stoic resolve. Reading is an active romance, both for the reader and for the book. (I tend to subscribe to the critical theory of Wolfgang Isère wherein the material and reader enter into a dynamic interaction and what is then interpreted is a product of the interaction)Would a rational person remain in a crappy relationship just to prove they can endure? I would hope not.
Oh look, it's another "Lem" the "Lem" discussion. For a minute there I thought I was having déjà vu. I get the feeling these threads will be happening more often.http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
I have to agree. I joined this group back when The Magicians was being read and have waited for a book that seemed like something I would enjoy before jumping in. It is very discouraging to find people trashing a book before the first episode on it. Also, I have to agree with @Alterjess, the bragging tone bothers me. I wonder if this isn't just a side effect of an American Idol world. It is not enough to just dislike something, rather in judging it you have to somehow appear superior and reign fire down on it.
I'm new to posting but have been following the podcast and group for a few months and... yeah. The almost bragging tone of people lemming books is a definite turnoff for me. No, I'm not saying people should force themselves to read things they're not liking... but I DO feel people who are going to join a book club and thus try out things that are picked by the club need do do a few things:
1) Be open to new things. That might mean a writing style you're not generally a fan of, a subgenre you'd not read normally, etc. Especially in SFF it feels really odd to read some pretty unadventurous posts.
2) Give the book at least 100 pages or so. I'm sorry, but I have to roll my eyes when I read a post that says something like "I'm through chapter 2 and kind of bored..." Oh really? TWO chapters...? I'm not a particularly fast reader, but 100 pages is a couple of hours for me. I think it's fair to expect people to put in a couple of hours.
3) Say WHY you're stopping. Not so people can judge you - your time, your decision - but so we can have some discussion. It's not really interesting to just hear "I'm stopping" but hearing a perspective on why someone doesn't like something can spark good discussions sometimes.
Either we have a culture that lets people be honest about Lemming a book or it goes back to becoming a dirty little secret.
While I can agree that people sometimes don't give a book a fair chance reading 100 pages is not always a good solution either. That is bigger than ebooks sample sizes and if i am not liking the book when the sample ends I am not inclined to spend $10+ so I can read 50 or 100 pages before lemming it.
Haha, funnily, I seldom actually read samples to decide if I want a book or not. I usually download them when I already want them but can't afford them, then I will remember to grab them at a later date....but reading them would normally result in me wanting to buy them right away, so I avoid doing that. >.<
I guess pirating for longer samples works for some. I would rather support the author and publishers so they will keep putting out good books. I don't always like the prices but I like the service publishers provide as a quality filter.
Ian wrote: "Either we have a culture that lets people be honest about Lemming a book or it goes back to becoming a dirty little secret."Being honest doesn't mean people need to be all
about it. Most of the lemming discussions I've seen are people kvetching about the choice of book, proclaiming that they're lemming it because it's not the type of sci-fi they like, and adding nothing constructive to the actual discussion.
@brandon - I was assuming one had the full book. Of course, if you're dealing with a short sample 100 pages won't work. I was pretty much just objecting to the tone of some of the lems where I got the impression that they'd read 20 pages and were posting about how they might lem the book.@ian - see Sean's take. While I don't think people need to hide the fact that they didn't like the book and stopped reading it, simply stating that is no more interesting to read that the inverse... that they finished the book. The difference is that the person who finished can talk about the book. The person who lems after 20 pages can't, really. The person who lems after some substantial investment CAN though and that can provoke interesting discussion.
Jeff thank you for starting this thread. I haven't been with the group for long (since Hyperion); but man is it disheartening to see the top thread for a new month's book choice be a Lem thread. (Especially when the OP of the LW Lem thread went on a similar crusade against Hyperion when it was up too.) I don't begrudge people their choice of quitting a book early, but this is a book club after all; we are supposed to be reading things we don't normally read so we can generate a broader discussion. I haven't been too involved in the SF/F book genre, so every month's pick has been a great chance of broadening my palette.
Although there are a few exceptions, most Lem threads are just full of people saying the equivalent of "+1" or trying to think of the coolest way to say they didn't read the book without giving any substantial insight. It almost makes me wish that the threads had an upvote/downvote system ala Reddit, so people who can voice their agreement or disagreement by voting, freeing up the actual comments for more fleshed out opinions and comments.
I have a great solution. Rather than complaining about lemmers and their lemming practices, you could decide to be the person to offer a more interesting thread. If lemming is the most popular thread, maybe the people who love the book aren't chatting enough. You could encourage the lemmers to try again, or maybe suggest a similar book that might be more accessible to them. I'm throwing down a gauntlet... What have you done to make it better? Just complain? Not good enough; try again. Constructive contribution always makes a community better.
P.S. Don't feed the trolls.
Not a bad thought jenny... but you make the classic mistake that posting constructive criticism is trolling. It's not. No one here is trolling unless, perhaps, you are trying to.I'd hope it's valuable to hear that some of us don't participate much because of the lems and the general negativity around a lot of the books. Unless you happen to feel that the S&L community is perfect, talking about issues isn't trolling and it shouldn't be out of bounds.
Oddly, the last couple of books have less of this than the prior bunch.
@Rickg - Jenny has been in this club for several years now. I've only been in it for a year or so. I can say if you know Jenny then you know she doesn't troll. She was just posting a suggestion.Also, just because you may not be trolling doesn't mean that someone in the a 10k member base might not be.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
War and Peace (other topics)Moby-Dick or, The Whale (other topics)
A Tale of Two Cities (other topics)
Reamde (other topics)
Thoughts? Am I reading too much into this?