Wizard's First Rule -- Torture *SPOILER ALERT*

[Zen]

When you get this far... how do you feel about this part of the book?

[Steven]

I can't say that I was really fond of it, but in many ways it helped show the character and personality of Richard.

[MATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT]

I agree with Henry.

[Suzanne]

I totally agree with Henry. I think it was a necessary part of the book. It explains Richard's character and the character developoment progresses so much farther because of Richard (and let us not forget Kahlan's) experiences with Denna, both in Wizard's First Rule and the later books.

Richard would not be the Seeker he is unless he went through that experiece with Denna, and most importantly *SPOILER* learning the other side of the magic of the sword and learning what he personally is capable of. It makes him more real as a character and a person.

[Kait]

I agree with everyone else. It never really bothered me, as I tend to believe that most author's aren't going to kill of their hero. At least not this early. I figured that it would shape him into who he had to be.

[Eric]

I loved how in the paperback, one of the craziest torture scenes happens on page 666. :-)

[Hayley]

Jumping in with my two cents here... I'm all for a good gritty scene when it furthers the plot, but in my opinion the torture section of this novel departed character development and dove into personal indulgence pretty quickly. I don't have a problem with reading something like this sort of torture in a novel, but I don't feel like sitting through pages and pages of the author getting kicks off his own personal fetishes.

At least.. that's how it felt to me after a while ;)

I've read scenes of similar traumatic and character-altering experiences (torture, abuse, rape, etc) in other works, and the goods ones never feel like they have to spend *this* long going through the details. It's like the difference between a good sex scene and unnecessary sex to grab a reader. I think Goodkind could have given us plenty to justify Richard's changes during and after this section, without needing nearly as many pages of an already too-long book.

[Shannon]

Jumping onto the bandwagon and agreeing with Henry here - this is still my favourite book in the series and the torture section made it so much more ... adult. It went places where fantasy sometimes goes but often doesn't, which is a shame.

Extreme experiences do help delve into characters more, and it's not gratuitous or anything because it's so necessary for the entire series-long story, really.

As Suzanne said, "It explains Richard's character".

[Rae]

I 100% agree with Shannon. Goodkind created some horribly graphic scenes in my head that many fantasy writers would fail at. But while the scenes were graphic, they we're gratuitous. He walked that fine line between terror and suspense and anguish and pain, and an outright horror scene.

[Richard]

I didn't like the book too much, and don't expect to read the sequels, but this was one of the highlights (along with the seduction scene). But even so, I've read better.

Oddly, the word torture never occurred to me while reading this. Living in San Francisco, I might have a more nuanced idea of the difference between sadism and torture. Of course, my "nuanced ideas" might be completely bogus, too.

BTW, anyone have any recommendations as to what author/book exhibits the best erotic S&M in a fantasy setting?

[Jim]

Have you read any of Laurell K. Hamilton's books? The latter part of her Anita Blake series & most of her Merry Gentry series have a lot of sex with bondage & sadism. Ruins the story for me, but apparently a lot of folks like it. She's getting steamier as she goes on.

[Richard]

No, it's a subgenre I definitely haven't explored, with the exception of the rather startling discover of A.N. Roquelaure when I was in college long, long ago.

[Richard]

I added one of Hamilton's books to my TBR shelf -- the appropriately titled Guilty Pleasures, book one in the Anita Blake series. But then I noticed it was shelved in the Teen section at the library, so how naughty could it be?!? (although this is the San Francisco Public library, which might change things).

FWIW, the Anita Blake series deals with vampires, whereas the Meridith Gentry series apparently deals with faeries. That latter series starts with A Kiss of Shadows, for anyone that is keeping track.

While I was browsing, I came across Jacqueline Carey, who seems to just add BDSM into straight Fantasy. Her lead-off was Kushiel's Dart.

Most stuff labeled 'fantasy' that has adult content seems to fall into the bodice-ripper category, which isn't too surprising.

Just thought y'all might want to know. :-)

[MB (What she read)]

Laurell K. Hamilton's "Anita" books don't turn into orgies until maybe 4-5 books into the series. The "Meredith Gentry" does (maybe) in the second book if I remember correctly.

The Anita series changes entirely in quality and focus about 5 books in.

[Richard]

That explains: I was just at the library today, and noticed that the later Anita books were in the "regular" fiction section, even though the catalog has the earlier ones in the teen area. Sending mixed messages a bit.

[MB (What she read)]

There's lots of controversy about this, actually. Evidently, (warning: I have no verification of this fact), she wrote the first five Anita books with her now estranged ex-husband. Many long-time readers have commented negatively on how badly the quality of her writing suffered after he was no longer around. I read her books up to a point, then just gave up. The later books are a mess!

Sorry to all you LKH lovers out there, but I'm sticking to my opinion. The later books are incredibly bad, (in spite of all the orgies.)

[ajah]

I appreciated the dark torture in these books, if for no other reason than that it was completely original. Young person discovers magical powers, runs from village and faces the world to save it from great evil? Not original. Even the Sisters of the Light were a pale reflection of the Aes Sedai from Jordan's Wheel of Time. But the Mord Sith were completely surprising and dark and I loved them. Especially later when Goodkind makes them have good hearts. !

[pauliree]

Richard wrote: "I added one of Hamilton's books to my TBR shelf -- the appropriately titled Guilty Pleasures, book one in the Anita Blake series. But then I noticed it was shelved in the..."

The whole Kushiel series is definitely BDSM but definitely not a standard romance. It is a very well written fantasy series with a strong lead character who goes on to be more than just a whipping girl.