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Things we have problems with in GH Novels
message 51:
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Karlyne
(new)
Jan 09, 2014 05:13PM
Well, I like the redemption part... But bad boys are always so very arrogant and that makes me want to smack 'em down!
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Yes, rakes can be obnoxiously arrogant. I can see how this would be off-putting. But I like em.However, due to my effusive praise of bad boys/bad asses, rakes etc., I must say in my own defense that my fave male of all HR fic is a wonderful guy, with a heart of gold, though not a GH character. GH is my fave author but another HR author has created what I feel is the perfect man.
So, who is this perfect man and the author? Don't leave us hanging. :)
He is Billy Blade AKA William Spencer Albright, Lord Rackford in Lady of Desire, 4th book of the Knight Miscellany Series by Gaelen Foley. These books take place during the regency. I have to warn you though, Billy's love interest is only 18 to his 28. A lot of people can't stand young heroine's in HR. I don't have "these problems" with age in HR. In addition, be warned, GF is not a "Clean" romance writer.
I too love a good gentleman-like hero now and then! Mr. Knightley from Emma is one of my favourite heroes of all times, and I also loved Sir Gareth Ludlow from Heyer's Sprig Muslin (which I just finished). He was quite perfect!
I love Sir Gareth too! He was a handsome prince in looks and behavior . I have not read Emma yet. However, I will be participating in a group read of it here in GR-land.
He definitely was a prince yes :) Oh I will be participating in an Emma group read on GR as well! I'm very excited, I love Jane Austen.
Emma is a beautiful book, so I wish you both lots of joy in reading her!
Karlyne wrote: "Emma is a beautiful book, so I wish you both lots of joy in reading her!"Thanks Karlyne! :)
I've just been reading the posts on Vidal in Devil's Cub and realised something. I'm not so keen on that book, and don't really like Vidal, but it's not specifically because of the scene where Mary's shoots him or the body on the highway. When I'm reading historical novels I don't apply modern morals or mores. It's because of the whole way he is, the spoiled brat. He gets better, of course, but I can't help feeling he's fundamentally flawed. I don't object to bad boys in general, as long as they're really nice guys underneath and have a reason for behaving badly. I like Damerel very much!
I'm looking forward to reading Emma with other JA fans!
Who is Demerel? What book is he from? I agree with you about Vidal as a spoiled brat. However, wealthy, idle young men (to say nothing of the ones who had titles of were heirs to titles) were very entitled at that time and in that part of the world. With the exception of having so bad a temper that he was always in duels, GH made Vidal everything that the son of "Satanas" should have been. If you recall, Vidal's father did not seem to be surprised by anything his son did except for upsetting his mother by causing her to fear for her son Vidal's safety that he, Avon/Justin banished him to the continent.
In addition, Vidal's father had attempted or tried to abduct a young woman he wanted. It isn't spelled it in DC, but I believe that Vidal's father Avon/Justin *only* cared that his son abducted a young woman, Mary, because Mary's grandfather was a crony of Justin's of long standing.
Oh. I have not read Venetia yet. When I discovered GH and fell in love with her romances, I "inhaled" them all so quickly that I have deliberately held off reading about 4 of her regencies to savor at a later date. My dream is to do a buddy read with someone in the future who has not read them or some of them or one of them.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "I liked it when Vidal shot the highwayman and left the body on the road. The conversation with his coachman asking if something should be done with the body and Vidal responding by asking if the co..."I think some darkness in a hero character, like Vidal, adds spice and makes things more interesting...tension, a flaw to be subdued etc. But, on the flip side, I am completely repelled by the 'boxing' of the ears that Hero suffers at Sherry's hands. I wanted to box his ears, quite frankly, and kick him out the door.
But, as someone else pointed out, it's a testament to Ms Heyer's powers with the word that we can gloss over these lapses and enjoy the overall writing.
I think GH can make nearly anything palatable. However, I have not read the book with Hero as a character yet. That is one of the books I am saving to savor later.
GH has made characters whom if written by other authors I would find annoying. But GH knows how to do it!
Hj wrote: "I've just been reading the posts on Vidal in Devil's Cub and realised something. I'm not so keen on that book, and don't really like Vidal, but it's not specifically because of the s..."I agree with everything you've said here. Now with Damerel, I always saw him as being a bad boy more from his reputation than from anything he did in the book or to Venetia, except perhaps when he first meets Venetia before he comes to know her. This was one of the few romances that had any heat in it, by the way, though in a subtle and suggestive way. But getting back to bad boys in general and what's acceptable or forgivable, any physical abuse or threat of it on their part is a deal breaker for me. And no amount of rationalizing it works for me. On the other hand, I seem to have a high tolerance for verbal abuse, if there is a good explanation, such as with Alverstoke in the book Frederica. Alverstoke uses his words to hurt people, but also to protect himself, if he even suspects someone is out to use him. I really liked how Heyer gave her readers insight into why this was so, when giving them details of his upbringing and history as an adult. It was a very modern, psychological analysis that enriched the story and allowed me to forgive Alverstoke for nearly anything, though I couldn't help wincing a few times at his cutting remarks and behavior toward his family and certain women.
I think, too, that "reporting" someone's bad behavior is not the same as condoning it. If the hero doesn't at least attempt to reform, then the author is, subtly or not, saying that the behavior is justified. And it's true, too, that verbal abuse, although certainly reprehensible, is not the same as physical. Rape doesn't equal a cutting remark, for instance!
I thought Alverstoke was justified where his two elder sisters were concerned, esp. his sister Buxted who demanded he pay for a ball and clothing for her bran -faced daughter's come-out (Alverstoke's description of his niece).
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Oh. I have not read Venetia yet. When I discovered GH and fell in love with her romances, I "inhaled" them all so quickly that I have deliberately held off reading about 4 of her regencies to savor..."I haven't read Venetia either, but it sounds very good! As a matter of fact, there are still a lot of Heyer's romances that I haven't read. If you ever want to read one together, I'd be happy to :)
Thanks Anne! I'll take you up on that, but I'll have to wait a bit. I'm involved in a group read of Gone with the wind now and I'm slated for a group read of Emma both with other GR groups.I'm looking forward to it!
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Thanks Anne! I'll take you up on that, but I'll have to wait a bit. I'm involved in a group read of Gone with the wind now and I'm slated for a group read of Emma both with other GR groups.I'm lo..."
Perfect :) I have other books/group reads too to finish up first, so we can set a time later! I'm very much looking forward to it also!
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Yes, Barbara, a lot of romance readers of present times do not tolerate threats of rape etc. in historical romances. Authors of HR written in these times write for readers similar to you in mind. ..."
Hmm, not entirely sure on this Andrea . "Readers similar to you " sounds a bit as if I'm a prude who can't take the tough stuff , swearing etc etc. Not that at all, I just hate rape and all acceptance of it in any age or style of book . I think my having worked as a rape crisis counsellor for some years colours my views, but I never did have tolerance for it .
I can remember years ago when mainstream novels began to accept rape as a tolerable situation, and one of my friends was immediately and positively disgusted with a best-selling author's treatment of it. Her attitude caused me to examine my own thoughts on it, and completely changed my reading habits. And, although you're not a prude, Barbara, I think that I might be! The older I get the more I enjoy the witty dialog of my favorite authors and the less I'm inclined to pick up the tough stuff.
And although I may be a prude, that doesn't extend to my judging negatively what other people read! I don't care an iota what other people read, just as I don't care what they eat for dinner or wear to work. I'm not in favor of censorship. Taste is subjective, after all, and we're all different..
Barbara, I don't think anyone is a prude. I can't judge the majority people who read romances (which I love to read) as prudes. These authors are in the business of making $$, so they don't want to turn off the majority of people. I'm probably wayward in my sensibilities for what I will tolerate and most people (HR romance readers in particular) in our times will not. In addition, if GH were writing now, I am sure that Vidal in DC and Belmanoir in TBM would not be threatening to rape anyone. These two books would have been very different stories.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Barbara, I don't think anyone is a prude. I can't judge the majority people who read romances (which I love to read) as prudes. These authors are in the business of making $$, so they don't want to..."I know what you mean by 'wayward in sensibilties' Andrea - I find myself feeling a tad ashamed that I can tolerate nothing even remotely approaching cruelty to animals and will turn two pages unread if I even think it might be coming ... but can read about bloody murder et al relatively unmoved !
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "I love Devil's Cub and These Old Shades. I like the 17th century equivalent of a bad boy. Bad boys/bad ass's in velvet coats and flowered embroidered waistcoats, haha! I also liked that bad guy Bel..."Great sentence - wish I had written it.
I've been reading this thread and I guess I have comments about several things. First of all, why read historical romance if you don't want the historical part? Except for the past 40 - 50 years and mostly in the US, life was really racist, sexist, violent, etc.
Having said that, the thing that bothers me in GH books is the incredible wealth of the incredibly few. I can't think of any of her romances that were about "normal" people. They're all rich, entitled, snotty people (haha) But I love them! Go figure.
As for the boxing of ears, threats of rape etc. I think she sort of had to use those words to get the emotional idea across. How else do you indicate in a pithy, amusing way that a character is reacting in a childish, temper tantrum sort of way? It’s like when GH uses the expression “making love” to describe a romantic interlude. I don’t think the characters are actually engaged in sex, as we would take that expression to mean these days. I mean, I just don’t think that (pre-marital sex) happened in those days and that social class, did it?
And just to take a side: I like the bad boys!
Oh dear Pat, I should have said 18th century!Yes, those rich people in GHs romances and are obnoxious, aren't they? But I am addicted to her romances and those by other authors! I just love escaping from reality into the silly concerns of these rich people ;-).
I forgot to mention, I love the historical part of HR. I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that what I hope an author will do is to create an illusion (to some degree) that the characters behavior and attitudes etc are how people would behave etc as people would for the time. In addition to my wayward sensibilities, I think that hope for this illusion allows me somewhat to tolerate stuff we have been discussing that is probably unpalatable to many more readers of these books.
I have no doubt in my mind that Heyer created accurate portrayals of a variety of people living during the time periods she wrote about. And I certainly appreciate all her attention to detail whether it's in characterization or costume. But what I do dispute is the appeal of a character like Vidal as a romantic hero. My advice to Mary is to run away as far and fast as she can in the opposite direction of such a man. Though I respect everyone's right to read and enjoy Devil's Cub for the escapism it provides and whatever else they find appealing about it, including Vidal and the romance.
Although I like DC, I have to agree with your advice to Mary. In addition, Although Avon, Vidal's father was worse than his son could have ever been, Avon turned out to be a good husband when he married in his 40s. I do not trust Vidal to be able to "pull off" becoming a good husband at 24 or 25, even if he does love Mary.
What I liked about Avon was that he knew that he was rotten and not nearly good enough for Leonie. And while he used her in his scheme, it was to her advantage, as well, and he did what he could to discourage her feelings for him, even sending her away. I really enjoyed their reunion when he humbled himself while asking for her hand. I think he earned her respect and the reader's respect in the end.
Yes, well said about Avon. He admitted that he was awful and I liked him for it. He had sense of humor about reprehensible life of debauchery that Vidal lacked. Vidal took himself seriously. The only thing Vidal admitted to was having a terrible temper and not being good enough for Mary.
I agree, I loved Avon's declaration! And I think Léonie was such a good match for him because she didn't let her attraction and feelings for him blind her, in the sense that she knew what he was, yet she still loved him and kept seeing the good in him.I admit that, as much as I enjoyed Devil's Cub, I was always a little puzzled as to why Mary fell for Vidal. I second your advice Donna, she should have run away from him!
Anne, none of us can probably tell what was on GHs mind when she wrote her books, but I would not be surprised if she struggled with finding a reason for Mary to love Vidal as he was written that did not have to do with his wealth of title. In other words, now that you mention it and I think about it perhaps you are right in you puzzlement over Mary falling for Vidal.
Fascinating discussion! @Barbara- well, Goodreads will only send a notification for a thread once, and then until you visit that thread again, it will never send you any more notifications. So if you didnt click through the first time, then you would not have got any subsequent notifications, and it is easy to miss a single one!
@ D.G.- about Sherry boxing Hero's ears, which didnt bother me because it seems he was reverting to brattish childish behavior rather than spousal abuse, we had a long discussion that you might find interesting here, in the Bath Tangle thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I haven't yet read the book with Hero as a character. Which one is it?
Friday's Child- one of my top 5, it is just hilarious!
Oh . There are about 4 of GHs romances that I have not read yet and this is one. I will look forward to it .
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Anne, none of us can probably tell what was on GHs mind when she wrote her books, but I would not be surprised if she struggled with finding a reason for Mary to love Vidal as he was written that d..."Well do you remember the scene between Vidal and his valet? It's very witty and clever (Heyer's stock in trade) and the valet is going on (and on) about the different men he has had to dress and their individual flaws and how he had to create optical illusions to hide their inadequacies. It ends with Vidal asking what his physical deficiency is and the valet says "none my lord. You are perfect" (or something like that). All I'm saying is that Mary isn't the first woman, in or out of fiction, who fell in love with a good looking' fella, rich or otherwise. And these characters are YOUNG. Mary is only 19 yrs old I think. Maybe the rest of you bloggers had great judgment at that age but I sure as heck did not.
Also, Mary herself sticks up for Vidal and points out the various kindnesses toward her including providing an emesis basin when they crossed the channel. I bet that wasn’t an everyday act on the part of a nobleman. I’ve been watching Downton Abbey, which is a good reminder of what these aristocratic types thought was beneath them.
One more thing…if any of you have read “An Infamous Army” I didn’t think Vidal turned out so bad. And he and Mary are still having adventures together in their sixties or seventies. He loses his temper and she tells him to put a lid on it. It’s pretty endearing.
Pat, I had not considered all of these things that you pointed out. Now that I have been reminded of them, I think you are on to something. It's easy to forget Mary's youth since she was so mature and sensible. She was indeed young enough to be susceptible to handsome face and form. And even if readers don't care for Vidal as a character, he was hot hot hot. Also early on in the book when Mary is talking to her feather-brained sister about Vidal, it comes out that Sophie, the dumb sister Vidal is chasing, does not think much of Vidal's looks, and if I recall, Mary is surprised that her sister does not admire his "dark stern beauty."
I also enjoyed Mary and Vidal, who was now the Duke of Avon in An Infamous Army although there was too little of them. They seemed to have enjoyed a happy marriage. I can't say that I liked Barbara though. Although I liked this book, Lady Babs was not a part of its charm.
Thanks for pointing that out Pat and Andrea! I too tend to forget Mary's youth because she was so sensible! Vidal definitely was extremely hot, and I understand that it helped him gain favour with Mary! Also, it is very true that he did many acts of kindness towards her :) I think what I maybe meant to say was that it is said pretty early on in the story, that Mary is in love with Vidal...Had she realized it later on it would have made more sense, in my opinion, but anyways they were such a cute couple, that in the end, whatever, I'm just so glad all ended well for them! I loved them in An Infamous Army, they are soooo funny! I wish there had been more of them too! Vidal was still pretty much the same though, but now he had Mary to control him ;)I actually liked Lady Bab! For once it was the lady who was "a rake" and the man who was the sensible one! :)
Anne, I guess you are right about Lady Bab, she was a "rake" I just hated her pairing with the sweet Charles Audley. Maybe I am sexist though in that I can take a rake (male) with a decent girl, but I could not take Bab as a rake with the decent Charles. I guess I'm guilty of holding women to a higher standard of behavior than men. However, I see Bab in a different light as a rake now . And with that awful marriage she was forced into and her terrible upbringing with her father I guess I can see her point now a little. But just felt sorry for sweet Charles for falling in love with her. At the time she accepted his proposal, I did not believe that she loved him.
I did not really mind her painted toenails and other antics. I just did not think she would do Charles any good.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Anne, I guess you are right about Lady Bab, she was a "rake" I just hated her pairing with the sweet Charles Audley. Maybe I am sexist though in that I can take a rake (male) with a decent girl, bu..."I admit that I felt the same way too, I thought that Charles was too good for her and felt bad that he was in love with her. I don't think she loved him either when he proposed, but as the time passed by, she realized that he meant more to her then her other admirers. Also, she isn't the kind of woman to swoon at the sight of blood or fall into a fit of the vapours, so I think she would make a very good soldier's wife. When the war struck she showed a more compassionate side her personality, and she was willing to help Judith with the wounded soldiers. Charles and her may not be the best suited couple, but I believe that Lady Bab truly did love him in the end.
She certainly stuck by him while he was ill and missing a limb. That is to be commended.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Unflappable Miss Fairchild (other topics)Devil's Cub (other topics)
Venetia (other topics)
Devil's Cub (other topics)
The Black Moth (other topics)
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