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Gabriel's Ghost
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May 2012 - Gabriel's Ghost: On Air Comments Questions for Monday: POST HERE
Imperial Ale, wine in a glass labeled honeylace, or Blue Curacao
Which of the characters would each of you pick to have as a love interest in a romance novel starring you?
Since it's 5AM for me when you guys start, I'll probably stick to a strong cup of coffee ;)As for questions or things to discuss; I would like to hear your thoughts on the secrecy/trust/acceptance in Sully and Chaz's relationship. Personally I felt like it was all way too easy. Every time Chaz was exposed to one of Sully's secrets she accepted it too fast for my liking. Plus, like Rachel pointed out very well in post 32 on http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8..., Sully invades people's mental privacy, which is a pretty big no-no in my book.
I'm really interested to see how you and others feel about that.
Felicia wrote: "Also: What are you drinking Monday? I need some blue liquor or something Spacey!! "Given that it's Towel Day today, surely your only option for such a weekend (which includes both Eurovision and my birthday - hic!) is a Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster?
Earth recipes are here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bartendi...
More seriously, I'm curious to know whether the panel feels the romances were even necessary in both of the books. Personally I felt it was all a bit crowbarred in and could have been left out (or existed as tension a la Mal & Inara, or even - heavens forfend! a friendship) in favour of a more adventurous plot. Do we really need consummation, particularly when it's as badly handled as these were? Doesn't it just add to the myth that men and women can never be friends; there must always be sex involved?
Much like Chaz, do we as readers only have faith in Sully (and his ridiculous antics) because Ren has faith in him? Wasn't that, after all, Ren's job?Would you read a romance book with Ren--alien sex god that we all suspect him to be--as the main character/love interest?
Karly wrote: "I googled "space booze" and apparently a lot of intelligent people are trying to figure out how to get drunk in space. Beer in zero gravity has some problems...But never fear, they are working on i..."Four words: Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster :D
did anyone else get sick of chaz 'sending rainbows'?!!When she first used the rainbow term it was in connection with learning how a blind stolorth (Ren) still functioned as an empath and I thought it was very fitting but then she mentioned it like every other page by the middle of the book I wanted to scream!!!
did anyone else want to take Ren home?! I just loved him I thought he was so so sweet, I think someone mentioned a later book in the series thats all about ren which Im excited about
Did anyone else have issues with the f word being used ? I didnt in the Iron duke book but did in gabriels ghost maybe because its a sci-fi book i felt it didnt fit right, like they should be saying frak or some other made up word like that.
@felicia you should get some blue wicked, thats a vodka and fruit juice alcho-pop, I get teased about drinking it cos it's so blue lol
I want to know what you guys thought about the overuse of the words rainbows, obsidian eyes and Angel. Love that in another thread a reader actually went through to see how often this came up. Obviously it was quite the topic of discussion here while reading it! :)I had a cocktail the other night called an Aviation - it was a purple hued drink. Totally spacey!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation...
Patricia wrote: "...Sully invades people's mental privacy, which is a pretty big no-no in my book.I'm really interested to see how you and others feel about that."
I'm curious about something similar. In Gabriel's Ghost, being able to read minds is a huge point of angst for Sully. Chaz fears and hates the ability, although less-so towards the end. He is very aware that it's bad and people hate it, even though he does it anyway sometimes.
In Grimspace, though, March occasionally delights in invading Jax's thoughts. And she, in turn, sometimes hopes he's "listening in" because she's thinking something mean at the time and/or wants to get his attention.
Very different dynamics between the two couples as far as the whole mind-reading ability goes. Which do you think is more realistic? Which do you like better, in terms of developing plot and the relationship between the characters?
Why do we accept, or at least, why do we see, lower writing standards, socially unacceptable or morally objectionable behaviour, and Ren not being naked & chained to my bathtub when I woke up this morning, just because of the "romance” aspect of the genre. Most of the comments I've seen touch on at least one of these things and yet it's what gets published over & over again. BTW, we should all be drinking tea. Lots of tea. Sure, they'll be Long Island Iced Teas, but definitely tea!
I would like to hear how you all think Sully compares with our other "alpha" male leads. As far as space drinks go, Tang is the original space kool aid and I have a friend who loves to drink it with vodka!
I always imagine the interiors of starships to be identical to the Louvre, but that's because I read too much space opera, so I'm guessing something along the lines of wine and brandy will be in my choice.
Something tea-related seems apropos given how often it's mentioned, but if you decide on "spacey" I agree with the poster who mentioned "Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster":http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bartendi...
I've had a version of it before and it was quite yummy, though I don't know if it matches any of these. It was from a bar called Zaphod Beeblebrox in Ottawa, Ontario.
Sexy times in Gabriel's Ghost: does him dicking around with her brain count, because that would double the scenes we can highlight?
It seems like most people agree that the writing in this one was pretty weak--I think it would be interesting and fun to discuss why, specifically, the writing fell short. Most people have commented on the extensive repetition--rainbows, my angel, obsidian eyes, etc. I felt that it was a problem how little I as the reader cared about the main plot point: the jukors. I just didn't feel the urgency I was supposed to. Why is that--what went wrong with the writing that caused it all to fall flat?
If you want something blue, and don't want your brains smashed out by a lemon wrapped gold brick, how about a Blue Whale (which kind of also goes with the Hitchhiker theme if you think about it HEH).As for questions, I would like know your opinions about the Alpha Scale for the two "love interests" in Chaz's life.
My opinion:
Sully - I have read opinions that he is Alpha. I think he is an Alpha wannabe. He was really more weak and frightened than overbearing. He ends up controlling her, but in a totally underhanded way. A true Alpha would have said "This is the way I am, dig it or fuck off." (but that wouldn't have made him a sympathetic character at all) LOL
Phillip - Exhibited EVERY deplorable Alpha characteristic available. Plus he's just a buttoned up prick. And yet I have read opinions that he would have been the better choice for Chaz.
Personally, I think she should have just spaced them both and gone home with Ren.
What do you think?
@molly I cared about the main plot and I kept wanting it to get back to that and for things to pick up which they did but it didnt really have that I dont want to put the book down cos im now hooked on the story until they hit marker which was chapters 28-39 those chapters I really enjoyed. I think I felt that the romance side of the book spoilt the sci-fi side of the book and it made the plot not that strong, what do you guys think ?
Sharon wrote: I think she should have just spaced them both and gone home with Ren.Yup - the author does seem to tempt Chaz with option a: ordinary human jackass, and option b: jackass who won't abuse his skills and mess with your head. Except when he does.
Alpha: Sully seems like a typically irritating romance-alpha, but notice that Philip almost immediately puts him in his place. He uses Sully as a sniffer dog but accords him even less respect & Sully quietly falls into line. Phillip also provides Chaz with more info about Skeevy Sully in 5 minutes than she's had from Sully himself in months. He may have been a shitty husband, but at least she knew she was getting married to him & could divorce him. Better the evil you know?
Would anyone else consider Sully "mind-raping" Chaz as bad as physically raping her? Others might say no, but it really bugged me as much as a physical rape scene. This could be a point for discussion (if it hasn't already been covered in another thread).
I agree about Sully being annoying. Whenever he said "Mine" I just thought of the seagulls from Finding Nemo.Did anyone else find Chaz to be lacking in character a bit? I couldn't find much to like or dislike about her. Would have preferred it if she didn't mention her dagger every 5 minutes.
Mondays beverage will be wildberry tea because it makes me look like a classy lady.
Charlotte wrote: "Whenever he said "Mine" I just thought of the seagulls from Finding Nemo.Oh, I do this for *every* book we read... Otherwise, I'd probably throw my ereader/book in disgust.
So let's turn that into a question: What characteristics in a lead love make YOU want to throw a book in disgust (or, if you're normal, just put it down)?
Sully annoyed the hell out of me. Was anyone else all about Ren?! Blue hair, hello?!!
I totally agree that the best thing in this book was Ren (so sensitive and yet subtly sexy) and it’s gratifying to come on to this thread and read that so many other people thought the same :)Generally I thought the book was entertaining but there were some moments that were so cringey they were actually really distracting-as has already been mentioned the constant talk of rainbows is one of the more obvious ones. And I’m sorry can anyone tell me what colour Sully’s eyes were? I don’t recall the author mentioning it at any point.
Wow, I didn't get *any* Mal vibe off Sully. Mal is deeply sexy because he's trustworthy, a real gentleman in every sense of the word. Mal never pushed Inara into anything - he waited forever for her to make up her mind. And he let her go gracefully. Sully's a slime. He couldn't wait to get into Chaz's head, bed, and forced her into a kind of marriage without her even knowing!
This is a recipe from the Quarks Bar at the old Star Trek experience at the Hilton here in Las Vegas:Stardrifter
1 oz Smirnoff Orange Twist Vodka (you can substitute another orange vodka, but Smirnoff seems to taste the best for this one)
1 oz Alize Red Passion
.5 oz Banana Liqueur
about 1 oz Orange Juice
about 1 oz Pineapple juice
This drink is also layered so pay close attention to the order on this one. First, get a tall glass and fill with ice. Next, pour the vodka, then the orange and pineapple juice (you can mix the juice in advance if you like). Add the Alize next, so that it sits on top (it will mix a little, so don’t worry if it’s not perfect, it will still taste great). Last, float the Banana Liqueur on the top and enjoy!
Since I can't drink right now I will have to live vicariously through everyone else!
Karly wrote: "I googled "space booze" and apparently a lot of intelligent people are trying to figure out how to get drunk in space. Beer in zero gravity has some problems...But never fear, they are working on i..."The suggestion of jello shooters being appropriate takes into consideration the challenge of alcohol ingestion in space ( though lidded cups and closed, straw accessible containers will solve this issue for any non foaming drinks I'd think).
The real question to consider is how can we avoid the alternate reality that so often occurs after over indulging - how do we prevent vomit comets from becoming just that?
I'm thinking watermelon vodka jello shooters are my drink of choice in space.
Okay well first of all if you don't know thedrunkenmoogle.com get on it! This post in particular is for portal themed drinks, so bright orange and blue!
http://www.thedrunkenmoogle.com/post/...
Also how was your trip? Any major VF encounters at the cons?
Do you feel the authors were successful world builders?
When do you know a particular VF/Romance book is bad (in the relative sense) and just a waste of your time?I'm not familiar with this genre (err... First Book!?), so figured that maybe it was just me and I continued to read through the whole thing. However once I had, I knew I was finished with it long before ever reaching the literal end.
[See my thoughts on it at http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8... ]
LadyCello wrote: "Would anyone else consider Sully "mind-raping" Chaz as bad as physically raping her? Others might say no, but it really bugged me as much as a physical rape scene. This could be a point for discuss..."You aren't the only one. I couldn't like his character no matter how I tried. The violation of her without her consent mentally and the fact that he knowingly trapped her into a "marriage" without giving her all the information just grated on my nerves.
Were you convinced of the urgency to the whole "while jukors are born and takas die" thing? Did you find it kind of silly? Since it's sci-fi, I was hoping for a little more background of why either of these races were important. I know it's a series, so the author probably explains more as she goes... But in GG, it didn't really seem like the characters themselves were convinced it was important most of the time. "Bad things are happening...let's drink tea and have sex." Plus, we had to be reminded of it with the phrase over and over like we'd forgotten (Sometimes I had.).
Truthfully, I didn't read this month's book as I'm just not a fan of sci-fi and had quite a few other books I wanted to finish. But I will be tuning in to listen because it's just fun to listen and learn! And I'll be having Mike's Hard....lemonade, that is.
The ethics of mind-reading is a complicated subject, so I'm not gonna touch it. I just got tired of bombshell after bombshell. If I were Chaz I would have washed my hands of Sully out of sheer frustration. It interrupted the flow of the story as well as being entirely too repetitive. I can't respect a character that gives in too easily… that means YOU, Chaz. Did anyone else feel that the Chaz-Sully relationship was unequal? Chaz was the one who had to put all her trust in Sully. He didn't trust her with a damn thing.Go for the jello shots.
There were a number of things about this book that, when looked at from a purely storytelling/world structure/character building pov, are a bit...lackluster, I think. I can tell what the writer was going for, but there a few kind of large issues that make it difficult to get fully immersed in the word and invested in the characters.My main issue was really Chasidah. Considering it's first person, it's amazing how little we really get to know her. Her emotional state seems to be perpetually on "confused" and not much else. Yes, she seems like she was a competent captain. But in terms of a personality...there's honestly not much there. She reveals very little about herself even in her own head. And what she does reveal is not that compelling. It's not bad, it's just a little difficult to figure out what it is that makes 2 men want to fight for her. Based on her own narration, there's not a lot of depth or nuance. Now, she does have flaws, she's not a Mary Sue or anything. But she's also just not that engaging.
Part of the problem is that a lot of the story relies on telling us about things, not showing them. Sully tells us she's an "interfering bitch" but we don't really see that. And because we're jumping into an established relationship midway, but don't really see those moments, it makes their love story seem flat. You have to build that with the reader or it's hard to suspend your disbelief. It's like when Chasida confronts Philip in space. She tells us she's upset and, okay, she used some angry words. But I didn't get the real depth of emotion I was hoping for. She just always seems slightly removed, and not because she was Fleet trained.
That brings me to the world. I think there are some interesting ethical and racial questions here, but they're a bit too random or haphazard. The way things are revealed in the story feels less like peeling back layers, and more like stumbling on things by accident. Without more context of the war it's difficult to really get a sense of how bad the jukor's are, or the Empire's issue with mind readers. We're told, rather than shown, that it's a Big Deal. And I think some of that is developed well with Sully, and the choices he makes with his abilities, but because their relationships is so odd, and the world doesn't have enough context, I had a hard time with it.
And last, the narratives use of repetitive phrases, which I think was meant to offer a kind of beat or thread...ended up just being kind of annoying. And it also made Chasidah seem kind of one note, since it all takes place in her thoughts.
I don't, by any means, think it's a "bad" book or story. I just think some streamlining would have have helped the narrative, and more time spent on showing rather than telling to engage us with the characters.
Mariah wrote: "there a few kind of large issues that make it difficult to get fully immersed in the word and invested in the characters."Issues indeed. I started Karen Marie Moning's Fever series and despite a few quibbles I got through all five books in a weekend because the author did get me thoroughly immersed and invested, as you said. 5 Books later I still wanted to buy the heroine a sense of self-preservation and my loathing for the hero had festered and grown ... but I stuck to it because book #1's faults were potentially important character traits or plot points and not a result of inadequate editing.
With GG, tighter writing and I might have actually cared that many Takas died to bring us this story.
Mod
Issues indeed. I started Karen Marie Moning's Fever series..."
I was thinking the Fever series would be a good pick, but it's almost NECESSARY to read all the books in the series, and that is kinda not great for us? I dunno. Now I'm scared to pick a book after this month's installment, haha.
Jane wrote: "did anyone else get sick of chaz 'sending rainbows'?!!When she first used the rainbow term it was in connection with learning how a blind stolorth (Ren) still functioned as an empath and I thought..."
Agreed! I was tired of the "rainbows" almost instantly.
Hey, Grimspace was a great pick! I'm up to book 4 in the series already. Also, it's fun to be exposed to different stuff. I'm sure we will all have a great time tomorrow night in the hangout and chats talking about Gabriel's Ghost!
Felicia wrote: "Now I'm scared to pick a book after this month's installment, haha."Actually, this book evoked some really good discussions. Sometimes the best discussions come from less than stellar books because it lets us talk about what didn't work. That part is really helpful for the writers in the group. I notice we have a few.
Readers who didn't like it can see it's not the genre as a whole and that they are not the only ones who had issues.
Your batting average is good enough that you can go a few more innings ;)
Looking forward to tomorrow... I'm bringing Jack ;)
*~MAJK~*
This was my first foray into sci-fi romance and really only about my 3rd steamy, non-Evanovich-type romance book in general. From the beginning I felt like the romance was rushed and a little over-the-top and really too easy, as other reviewers have mentioned. I wasn't sure if that's just how romance's are written. I'd really like to know if this is a good example of a romance genre book? Do you think Chaz would have fallen for Sully without him using his little tricks of warmth and reading her "rainbows?" In the end she feels she uses her own mind, but can it really be her own mind if she's been manipulated from the moment they meet on Moabar? Men and women generally use manipulation in the wooing process, so are his tricks any different than a non-Ragkiril approach to romance?
Also, Ren is hot. Need more Ren. Did anyone else picture him almost like a Na'vi? Only with gills and webbed hands and feet? I'm sure this question will come up anyway, so who would you cast as Ren, Sully, Phillip, Chaz and Sister Berri Solaria? I pictured Karen Gillan as Sister Solaria almost from the beginning. I have no opinion on anyone else.
I really, really wish I could be there for the discussion, but being in EST with a 2 year old that wakes up at 6:30 a.m. makes that impossible. Sad face.
Felicia wrote: "Now I'm scared to pick a book after this month's installment, haha."No reason to be! The whole point is to give us a book to discuss. Mission totally accomplished (EVERYONE has opinions about this one LOL). :D
Love the Fever series. What's the genre for next month?
I also belong to the Ren fan club, but I love him far too much to stick him with Chaz (or as I like to think of her: 'the wet towel'). I wasn't exactly thrilled with Sully either, but I figure misery loves company, so they're welcome to each other. I'd like to see a discussion of Ren fan club t-shirt design. As long as there are no rainbows, I'm in!
Felicia wrote: "Now I'm scared to pick a book after this month's installment, haha. "No way, don't be scared - I'm really excited for your next pick, whatever it is! I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussions here and it's fascinating to see all the different perspectives. Not everyone hated Gabriel's Ghost! and those of us that weren't keen were able to articulate *why* very clearly. I think that's actually very very important for the whole genre and perhaps with more discussions like this (and hopefully some writers listening in) we'll start to see some really creative characters - both male and female - rather than flat tropes.
Sword & Laser is the same way in terms of not everyone loving the picks - the last two (The Magicians and Hyperion) have been real "marmite" books; you love it or you hate it, and it's been loads of fun to deconstruct them and find out what works and what doesn't work for different kinds of readers.
Felicia wrote: "Now I'm scared to pick a book after this month's installment, haha."Why? It's been wonderful having something to rant about when, back in real life, you become the office pariah if you don't mindlessly yes-man the boss and radiate positive thinking even though it's not what the situation calls for. This has been fun and honest ...and it dropped me head-first into steampunk after way too many years of dragging my heels (thanks for that - you've broadened my reading scope!).
Also,I think you've underestimated the VFH crowd & your personal fan base if you think we won't read a whole series just to get the context for your pick of the bunch :)
Don't be afraid to pick! I love this group because I end up reading books I would never have chose before. Even if I don't like the pick of the month, I still enjoy the discussion on the forum and on the video chat. I also love the Fever series, I have read all of the books except I am not finished with the last book yet.
My mind couldn't reconcile the smart competent Captain Chaz, with the perpetually confused and disdressed damsel Chaz who goes back to creepy Sully again and again. I kept expecting her to punch him in the face. But all she does is just apologise for "not trusting him".... wtf??The "romance" between Chaz and Sully definitely gave me the heebie jeebies - did anyone else get the vibe that this was actually a story about an abuser and his victim?
Sully is secretive, demanding, posessive and has unpredictable mood swings. He isolates her from everyone else. And promises incessantly to never hurt her, yet constantly throughout the story drops one bombshell after another what would cause any sane person to run away(I definitely wanted to get away!). But when Chaz is even slightly hesitant to accept him for all that he is and potentially might be, he storms off like a petulant child.
Add to that his ability invade her privacy, directly maniuplate her feelings, rip through her memories. He pretty much gets her addicted to "gray fuzzy soft" by constantly touching her/and other sexy times (which were not as sexy as it could have been given that he can actually mind link with her - but that a whole other post).
Oh! Aaaand, on top of that, we/Chaz learn more Sully's true self in the 5 mins Philip shows up at the end of the book than all those months drifting around in space with Sully himself.
Overall the world building was subtle and those action scenes were fantastic. Their whole plan about exploding the lab, and the actually having things blow up - awesome! The chase scene after that was pretty intense as well... and I loved the twist with Sister Berri (even though I kind of saw it coming) plus the reason for the twist wasn't some lame cop out answer either! Double score!
I know some of you didn't like Philip, but I at least felt I could respect him. He's a douche but he doesn't pretend to be otherwise. Sully on the otherhand is just a creepy abusive coward trying to masquerade as some roguish swashbuckling pirate. Bleh. :P
I loved some of the supporting characters that got introduced and wouldn't mind getting to know their back stories.
I think if the story had left out all the creepy/love/lust/addiction bits and expanded more on about saving the world and destroying hell-monsters it would've been really great, I'd see the movie! (Although then it's not really VF huh?)
Okay, that's the end of my essay!
tl;dr
Can we pls pls, have an epic love story for the next one, pls? This one made me not want to have ppl touch me because Sully creeped me out too much. :/
I'm not sure where I'm going with this thought, bear with me...I read Zog by Julia Donaldson with my daughter this morning, which is about a princess who refuses to be rescued from a dragon because she wants to be a doctor (and it turns out the knight would rather be her apprentice anyway; the dragon volunteers to become their flying ambulance). I try and steer away from mainstream princess culture for my daughters because it's incredibly pervasive, so we have quite a few subversive little tales like this. As I was reading it hit me...stories like Gabriel's Ghost - full of coercion and possession and MINEMINEMINE - are they the grown-up version of the stories which I avoid; which tell little girls to submit to/be protected by/their opinion is worth less than men constantly? How do we end up with all these weak female characters in adult fiction?
No, still not sure where I was going with that thought and I have to go - anyone take it further?
Caroline wrote: "I try and steer away from mainstream princess culture for my daughters because it's incredibly pervasive, so we have quite a few subversive little tales like this. As I was reading it hit me...stories like Gabriel's Ghost - full of coercion and possession and MINEMINEMINE - are they the grown-up version of the stories which I avoid; which tell little girls to submit to/be protected by/their opinion is worth less than men constantly?" How do we end up with all these weak female characters in adult fiction?From another perspective though, Sully isn't the knight -- he's the dragon. He's demonized and hunted and will be killed on sight for no other reason than what he was born as. Is she really weak, then, if she falls for the dragon and not the knight (who would be her ex-husband)?
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Vaginal Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Grave Witch (other topics)Grimspace (other topics)
Also: What are you drinking Monday? I need some blue liquor or something Spacey!!