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If you've recently watched a movie, or read a scene in a book, where someone says "I love you" or something similar, we'd be very grateful if you briefly noted it here. We need more examples before we can proceed to the next phase of this study. Genre and language don't matter, we'd like it as varied as possible. Thank you again to everyone who's already contributed...
In War and Peace, wealthy, hapless Pierre is bewitched by the beautiful, idiotic Helen and her designing family, who conspire to see her married to Pierre (and his immense fortune). Pierre, in response to what seems to be a done deal, is confused about the situation and feels a sense of dread mingled with attraction, but tells himself that "all this had to be so and could not be otherwise.... therefore there's no point in asking whether it's good or bad. It's good because it's definite, and there's no more of the old tormenting doubt." Casting around for something to say to her in the moments when it becomes clear that he is inevitably fated to marry a woman whose physical allure is her only attraction, they have a moment of total awkwardness in the place of intimacy, after she asks that he remove his glasses:Pierre took off his spectacles, and his eyes, on top of the general strangeness of people's eyes when they take off their spectacles, had a frightened and questioning look. He was about to bend down to her hand and kiss it; but she, with a quick and crude movement of her head, intercepted his lips and brought them together with her own. Her face struck Pierre by its altered, unpleasantly perplexed expression.
"It's too late now, it's all over; and anyway I love her," thought Pierre.
"Je vous aime!" he said, having remembered what needed to be said on these occasions; but the words sounded so meager that he felt ashamed of himself.
A month and a half later he was married and settled down, as they say, the happy possessor of a beautiful wife and millions of roubles, in the big, newly done-over house of the counts Bezukhov in Petersburg" (2007, p. 214).
Pierre recalls these words -- expressed in the artificial, affected French of high society, rather than his soulful native Russian -- several times throughout the novel, as representing the point at which he bound himself to a life of misery with a cruel, stupid woman.
Thank you Jessica, what an excellent example! I had completely forgotten this scene, it's so long since I read War and Peace. I wonder if it's correct that a Russian at that time would need to say "Je vous aime" rather than "Je t'aime". Did you have use the formal version, or was there a choice? I'd have thought that, having kissed her on the lips, he'd be allowed to use the familiar form.
If he did in fact have a choice, I can see even more reasons why he'd be annoyed with himself...
Hi Manny and Everyone,This is from my novel, Reason Reigns:
Not far from Ivan’s medical clinic was Pit’s new home built a year ago. Waiting on Pit’s porch when he arrived home was an adorable young lady, wearing a pearl necklace with matching earrings. She had just completed an engineering degree at the Ibelyn Science Institute. Pit invited her in.
“Pit, thank you for my graduation gifts. The pearls are beautiful.” The young lady had stopped calling him ‘Coach’ two years ago.
“You are welcome. You did a great job at school. You make us proud.”
She stepped closer to him. “May I thank you with a kiss?” She wrapped her arms around his neck and kissed his lips. Pit’s body came alive with passion. He broke away. He battled with himself as he burned with raging desire.
“Pit, I love you. Will you marry me?” She was very much aware why an exceptionally discerning mind had included Pit as one of the subjects in a portrait named Beau Ideals.
“Your father is my best friend, my family. I am your uncle.”
“I’ve never called you that. You are not my blood relative. I choose you as my husband, not as my uncle.”
“You are half my age. I can’t take advantage of your youth.”
“I am wise beyond my years. I have waited since I turned eighteen, but for two years, I have longed for no one but you.”
“I can’t betray your father.”
“Father will be honored to have you as a son. He fervently wants your happiness. He loves you. I love you passionately. I want you.”
“I have loved you ever since you were born. I will always love you. But I shouldn’t want you.”
“Barely a teenager, you then had the mettle to defend Father when the powerful persecuted him and the public shrugged in apathy. Does it take greater courage to want his daughter?”
“It is my greatest battle. For the last two years, I have battled everyday not to think of you who have brought so much joy into my life, because when I do, my body burns with passion. It is monstrous of me to want you.”
“It is my greatest pride that I want you. I am proud that my whole body longs for your touch. My desire for you is my most sacred thought, my most beautiful emotion. I am not a monster for feeling passion for a wonderful man. Neither are you for wanting me.”
“You are an angel. I will cherish you always. But I shouldn’t hold you, not even in my mind.”
The young lady kept still for minutes and then resolved, “I respect your decision. I will stay away from you.” ...
Well, I'm certainly no linguist, but I assumed that he could've chosen the tu form if he'd felt at all, you know, close to her.... I read the stiffness and formality of the statement being much of the point.
Thank you Ilyn! Will check out your novel :)
Jessica, the rules on when you can say tu have changed a lot over time. These days, there would be no question about him being able to say it. Things used to be stricter. I'm wondering about whether he was forced to say vous because he had chosen the wrong language, or whether he made bad choices on both language AND pronoun. Though my instinct is to agree with you.But I've just realized I know someone I can ask, who will almost certainly know for sure! Will post when I've found out.
Does Russian have a formal and informal second-person thing? Maybe he couldn't have used "te," but I got the sense that the phrase wouldn't have sounded so forced and distant if it hadn't been in French.I really love that scene! So amazing!
I agree, the scene is indeed very fine! I must re-read this book.Russian does have a distinction mirroring tu/vous, but my knowledge of the language is extremely basic, nowhere near good enough to know about the nuances of this kind of thing. I googled around a bit, and it is quite complicated. The best reference I've found so far is the following posting from LISTSERV, which leaves me still uncertain... it isn't clear exactly what degree of physical intimacy is required to switch pronouns, in particular whether a kiss on the lips is enough. The author seems to be saying it isn't, but I'm not completely certain, all the more so since this would have been early 19th century aristocratic Russian. Aren't we English-speakers lucky not to have to worry about this minefield?
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 91 21:29:17 EST
From: [log in to unmask:] (Victor Raskin)
Subject: Tu/vous
The Russian ty/vy, calqued directly from French a couple of centuries ago (I am not sure of the exact time), is different from the French original in its current usage. When I was in France in the late 1970s, French friends whom I did not know too well, were quite tolerant of my French and even generous in their praise of it, but they did eventually ask me to switch from vous to tu. They told me that they had actually expected me to start out with tu because vous meant detachment, arrogance, "I am not like you." I had, of course, been using my native Russian honorificity rules.
In Russian, vy is common and unmarked. Ty automatically applies to friends of the same age when young. It applies to children, but teachers are instructed to switch to vy when talking to an individual student in seventh or eighth grade (14-15). It also applies to parents and grandparents, but not necessarily to aunts and uncles (not in my family).
If you are addressed in the ty form, otherwise, it is a very marked and often unwelcome claim by a stranger to be exactly like you and, therefore, close, familiar. A blunt and openly hostile response to that is "My s vami na brudershaft ne pili!" /You--the vy form--and I did not drink to bruderschaft--a reference to an old German ritual of switching from sie to do in a special toast drunk with intertwined arms/. A subtler way to discourage the unwelcome ty usage is to continue to respond with vy, very similar to the American insistence on using Mr Doe instead of John.
Alexander Pushkin wrote in the 1820s, "Pustoe vy serdechnym ty/ona obmolvyas' zamenila" /She replaced the empty vy with an affectionate ty, but it was a slip of the tongue/. This notion of ty/vy is still there today. It has also resulted in a peculiar literary translation practice. When a man and a woman meet at the beginning of an English-language story or novel translated into Russian, they must start out with vy. At the end of the story or novel, after having become intimate, they must use ty. When to switch them becomes the translator's decision because, of course, the English original often lacks a usable clue.
The standard practice is to do the switch when the heroes go to bed together for the first time. But what if it is not entirely clear in the original or left deliberately ambiguous by a modernist author as to exactly when it happens? The translator does not have the luxury of being vague or ambiguous about that--either way sends a clear yes or no message.
In other words, the translator cannot help informing the readers, ordinary people, not just the literati, that the heroes have been to bed the moment the switch from vy to ty occurs. Needless to say, the translator can make a mistake or disambiguate a situation against the author's attention, and you definitely do not want one translator's personal interpretation imposed on you. But there is not much choice: leaving the heroes on the vy basis precludes intimacy.
I am sure people familiar with various honorific systems can tell many anecdotes about the horrors of translating from a language with less honorificity into a language with more. This may be the beginning of a new list.
Jessica and Manny, back in the day in Russia it was fashionable to use French. I think (trying desperately to recall year 11 English here) there was at the time a sort of backlash against Russian culture, which was seen as backward and unsophisticated compared to that of places like France, Germany and Britain. As a result, members of the Russian nobility often spoke as many as four (?) languages, and mainly used Russian only to talk to servants and commoners, while conversing in French (I think the most popular), German and English with one another. As such, I think it would have been entirely normal for Pierre (note he is Pierre and not Pyotr) to tell Helen "Je vous aime". The use of 'vous' rather than 'tu' seems to fit with my perception of the formality and distance between men and women of that class at the time. In other words, I don't think he used 'vous' to show that he didn't really love her, but because that was what was expected of him by society at the time. Maybe it comes from transference of the Russian ty/vy distinction, or maybe they were just more formal in those days. Jessica's thought that if he really loved her he would have chosen Russian is really interesting, though, and I wonder if it would have happened given the constraints of society. I'm pretty sure this is all pretty much true in essence, but I'm a little hazy on the specifics. Also, I apologise if you already know some or all of what I wrote. What we need here is a real expert in Russian lit. Houellebecq examples coming up!
I was surprised to realise that the characters in Houellebecq's Platform never really told each other they loved each other. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised, since it's more of a porn-fest than a love story.The closest thing to a declaration of love occurs while Michel is busy extolling the virtues of Valerie - namely, everything that makes her a totally unrealistic character - and Valerie replies by saying "I feel happy with you, I think you're the love of my life, and I don't ask for anything more than that."
Later, as Michel muses over the busyness of Valerie's schedule, he shows his magnanimity and, gasp, love, with these words: "Her orgasms were more muted, more restrained, as though muffled by a curtain of fatigue; I think I loved her more and more."
Later, Jean-Yves (Valerie's boss) recalls his father, and realises that the only time he remembers him being truly happy was when he was showing a young Jean-Yves how to use Meccano. "Yes, his father had loved engineering, truly loved it..."
So, that's it. Another interesting point is that they always use 'make love' when talking about the sex Valerie and Michel have together.
Yeah, the upper classes used French, but there was a lot of ambivalence and resentment about this. I know Gogol really freaks out about it, and Tolstoy seems to have less of a bone to pick, but he definitely reflects some criticism of the practice. In War and Peace, there's a very funny section later in the book, when France is invading Russia and the new trend of national pride and anti-French sentiment pressure the aristocrats to return to their native language -- which many of them have forgotten how to speak properly!I definitely think it's intentional and significant that he says it in French, and so formally. Given the situation, French must have been the appropriate language, but that speaks a lot about the context of what's going on. I mean, he really doesn't love this woman, and his actions in marrying her are basically in response to social convention and pressure, rather than strong personal feelings. His use of a foreign language associated with artificiality and fashion must purposely reflect that!
I gotta run to work so I can't check right now, but I'm sure that much later in the book, when Pierre expresses his honest and heartfelt love for the epitome-of-Mother-Russia heroine, it's in his native tongue....
Choupette, thank you for the Houellebecq examples! I'm sorry if this is the exact opposite of what you intended, but now I'm curious to read this book :)Jessica and Choupette, the mother of a friend of mine is a professor of Russian literature. Her specialty is Dostoevsky, but I'm sure she'll know all about the issues with French and Russian in Tolstoy. Will see if I can get hold of her to ask! I saw her not that long ago.
Manny, please read it! I find it very confusing that in so many circles it's seen as brilliant and all that, but I find it so awful. Knowing your point of view would be nice.Jessica, sorry that I told you all that stuff you already knew. I haven't actually read War and Peace, but I'm really interested to do so now! The length kind of put me off, and also I found Anna Karenina a bit of a struggle.
Make sure you get the right translation, because I know at least some of the other ones don't distinguish the French, and make it all into English!!
Death Cab for Cutie have written one of the most touching songs about love I've ever heard called I will follow you into the dark. There are a lot of examples of how difficult it can be to simply say "I love you". And I'm sure most people can attest to the fact it can be hard to say in real life. But I think that expressing sentiments like this are taking I love you to a whole new level.Love of mine some day you will die
But I'll be close behind
I'll follow you into the dark
No blinding light or tunnels to gates of white
Just our hands clasped so tight
Waiting for the hint of a spark
If heaven and hell decide
That they both are satisfied
Illuminate the nos on their vacancy signs
If there's no one beside you
When your soul embarks
Then I'll follow you into the dark
"Tsukiatte kudasai" has reminded my of the Bob Marley song 'Is this love'. I find the title to be the most interesting part of the song. It's pretty obvious to anyone listening to the song that it's definitely love yet he still seems to be unsure. Which is a pretty accurate description of real love come to think of it.I wanna love you and treat you right;
I wanna love you every day and every night:
We'll be together with a roof right over our heads;
We'll share the shelter of my single bed;
We'll share the same room, yeah! - for Jah provide the bread.
Is this love - is this love - is this love -
Is this love that I'm feelin'?
And just one more. This is from Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte. Mr Rochester is asking Jane why she looks troubled and is wondering if she is nervous about their upcoming wedding.'I think it is a glorious thing to have the hope of living with you, because I love you. No, sir, don't caress me now - let me talk undisturbed.'
She then tells him about the troubling experience of seeing a strange woman come into her room at night and rip her veil in half. It turns out to be Mr Rochester's mad wife who he keeps secretly locked away upstairs. I like how the declaration of love is made so effortlessly. It wasn't even the point that she was trying to make.
Perkin, thank you for all the examples! I particularly liked the one from Jane Eyre. Had quite forgotten that scene...
In the movie version of The Reader, Michael and Hannah have just had a huge fight. He has no idea what her feelings for him are."Do you love me?" he asks, angrily.
She inclines her head unwillingly in a brief nod. As the story unfolds, it becomes clear that she is an unusually truthful person.
Returning to the War and Peace thread (post #64 and subsequent discussion):OK, I have a partial answer from my friend's mother. She thought it was unlikely that Pierre would have been able to say Je t'aime just on the strength of having kissed her. Je vous aime was the only alternative if he was going to use French. Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to ask what the deal was in Russian - she was looking after her grandchildren, who were apparently in need of attention. But I will see her (and them) tomorrow. More soon.
This is fascinating, I feel like a character in a David Lodge novel! All that's missing is to have some romantic association of my own which crucially depends on the answer.
In Hiroshima Mon Amour, Riva meets a Japanese man while she is in Hiroshima filming a fictional documentary. They have a one-night love affair. The next day the Japanese seeks Riva out at the film set and says to her as a parade passes them "I hate to think about your leaving. Tomorrow. I think I love you."A little more context is required to understand this example - it's weird, and more than just a one-night fling. Both are "happily married, not looking for a substitute for an unhappy marriage." But there is "an overlapping of Nevers and love, of Hiroshima and love... they look at each other, completely in love. A hopeless love, killed like the Nevers love. Therefore already relegated to oblivion. Therefore eternal." (Nevers is a city in France, where Riva grew up.) "It's really love... in each others' eyes, they are no one. They are names of places, naems that are not names. It is as though, through them, all of Hiroshima was in love with all of Nevers." [emphasis original:]
Continuing from #85, I now have full details. It would have been odd for Pierre to have said Je t'aime as opposed to Je vous aime, since the engagement had not yet been formalized, and he hasn't known her very long. Perhaps not completely out of the question, but it would have shown that his feelings for her were so strong that he was willing to bend the rules considerably. It would not have made any difference if they had been talking Russian instead of French.Later, when he makes his declaration of love for Natasha, they are indeed talking Russian, and he uses the familiar form. The critical differences are both a) he has genuine, deep feelings for her, and also b) they have known each other a long time. One of these on its own would probably not have been enough.
In Manon des Sources, Soubeyran and Ugolin have ruined Jean and his family by secretly blocking up the spring on which their farm depends. After Jean's death, they take it over, unblock the spring, and proceed to make a fortune. Unfortunately for him, Ugolin falls in love with Manon, Jean's beautiful daughter. He can't think how to approach her, and decides that the best way will be to start by offering her the chance of moving back to her old farm, in exchange for doing a little work. What he doesn't know is that Manon is aware of his duplicity in blocking up the spring. She scornfully rejects his offer - she isn't interested in being his servant. Completely losing his cool, he runs after her, shouting:
Manon! Ne cours pas! Ecoute-moi une minute! Manon, c'est pas vrai! C'est pas pour te faire travailler! C'est parce que je t'aime! Manon, je t'aime! Je t'aime d'amour!"
[Manon! Don't run away! Listen to me a minute! Manon, it's not true! It's not to get work out of you! It's because I love you! Manon, I love you! I love you and I am in love with you!:]
Manon stares at him, astonished and disgusted. He continues:
Manon! J'ai pas osé te le dire de près, mais j'en suis malade! Il m'étouffe! Et il y a longtemps que ça m'a pris!...
[Manon! I haven't dared tell you, but it's making me sick! It's strangling me! And I've felt like this for such a long time!...:]
I am not sure how best to translate the stock phrase Je t'aime d'amour. I rendered it above as "I love you and I am in love with you". Literally, it is "I love you out of love".
In The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, Benjamin has an affair with a married woman played by Tilda Swinton. One of the requests she makes before starting is that they are never to say "I love you" to each other.It seemed fairly clear that Benjamin does in fact love her. I thought that the film left ambiguous the question of whether or not she loved him. When she leaves, her note says only "It was nice to have met you".
Hi manny, I wanted to put up a song by Animal Collective, I like the fact that the expression I love you is not used, but the whole song reflects an intimacy (and love) with the person written about...Bluish
I'm getting lost in your curls
I'm drawing pictures on your skin,
So soft it twirls.
I like your looks when you get mean
I know I shouldn't say so but when you
Claw me like a cat, I'm beaming
I like the way you squeeze my hand
Pulling me to another dream,
We should dream.
I'm getting lost in your curls
I'm getting crushed out on the things
that only I should see
They're not for boys, they're just for me
Hurry to talk, from far away
I can't see you
You curl your fists when you pull your hair
When we're alone, I wanna say
Let's just stay in, no one's here in our apartment babe
Put on the dress that I like
It makes me so crazy, though I can't say why
Keep on your stockings for a while
There's some kind of magic in the way you're lying there
I'm getting lost in your curls
I'm getting rushed back on a whim,
Our breath gets weird
Back to the time when we were green
I know we have changed
But I still grin 'cause I can wake to see you
Back to the time I touched your hand
When I was so scared to look that mean
I think it's weird
Put on the dress that I like
It makes me so crazy, though I can't say why
Keep on your stockings for a while
There's some kind of magic in the way you're lying...
Blue eyeshadow
It's not exactly blue though
I refuse to call it anything but your blue...
Thank you julieta! I have reorganized the collected examples on my writing page, so that they are now divided into four groups: explicitly saying "I love you"; saying something similar; explicitly NOT saying "I love you"; others. I found it quite interesting to compare the examples in each group...
While editing this collection, I keep thinking of the movie Cinema Paradiso. Their collection of screen kisses...
Thank you for giving me a reason to read Manon des Sources.
Have you already read Jean de Florette? They are both great...
Nah, I was underwhelmed by La Gloire de mon Pere.
I think Jean de Florette and Manon des Sources are generally acknowledged to be his best books. A really satisfying story, beautifully told. The movies and the books complement each other well, each contains some things the other lacks. I saw the movies first, but I'm sure you can do it in either direction.
VALENTINE’S DAY GREETINGS FROM THE LOVE AND SEMANTICS THREAD!First, thank you so much for all the wonderful examples you have already contributed! We will be delighted if you send in more of them, but we now have enough that we can also start on Phase 2, where we ask you to analyze them. We will post entries in the Polls section of this group, where we ask questions about the examples. There will be three polls for each item. If you answer a poll, please answer the other two that are connected to it as well, otherwise we won’t be able to use your responses.
We will post a first set of three polls shortly. Please try them out, and feel free to add comments if you want!
Manny and Beth Ann
Happy (Belated) Valentine's Day!I spent it alone in the city... I suppose that's better than what happened to Peter Gusenberg...
Matthew, if it makes you feel any better, Beth Ann and I (her in California, me in England) spent Valentine's day sitting in front of our respective laptops, working on the Love and Semantics project. I suppose it was at least meta-romantic. So please vote on our initial polls, or comment on them if you feel that the methodology is in some way insufficient!
If it isn't obvious where to find our first three sample polls, they are at http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/95... http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/95... and http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/95...
The first set of polls is about an incident in the movie Sideways. Since many people don't appear to have seen it, I've just added three more polls, about a passage in Jane Eyre. Hopefully that will help. In general, please only answer if you've read the book/seen the movie. The Jane Eyre polls are at http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/96... http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/96... and http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/96...
We should've started a topic on math-related pick-up lines. PERFECT FOR VALENTINE'S DAY.Ex. "Let's take each other to the limit to see if we converge."
OK, we now have polls up for three situations, and votes are starting to come in. It's interesting to see that people are far from agreeing all the time. More votes please! Go to http://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/12...
As I walked out one evening,
Walking down Bristol Street,
The crowds upon the pavement
Were fields of harvest wheat.
And down by the brimming river
I heard a lover sing
Under an arch of the railway:
'Love has no ending.
'I'll love you, dear, I'll love you
Till China and Africa meet,
And the river jumps over the mountain
And the salmon sing in the street,
'I'll love you till the ocean
Is folded and hung up to dry
And the seven stars go squawking
Like geese about the sky.
'The years shall run like rabbits,
For in my arms I hold
The Flower of the Ages,
And the first love of the world.'
But all the clocks in the city
Began to whirr and chime:
'O let not Time deceive you,
You cannot conquer Time.
'In the burrows of the Nightmare
Where Justice naked is,
Time watches from the shadow
And coughs when you would kiss.
'In headaches and in worry
Vaguely life leaks away,
And Time will have his fancy
To-morrow or to-day.
'Into many a green valley
Drifts the appalling snow;
Time breaks the threaded dances
And the diver's brilliant bow.
'O plunge your hands in water,
Plunge them in up to the wrist;
Stare, stare in the basin
And wonder what you've missed.
'The glacier knocks in the cupboard,
The desert sighs in the bed,
And the crack in the tea-cup opens
A lane to the land of the dead.
'Where the beggars raffle the banknotes
And the Giant is enchanting to Jack,
And the Lily-white Boy is a Roarer,
And Jill goes down on her back.
'O look, look in the mirror?
O look in your distress:
Life remains a blessing
Although you cannot bless.
'O stand, stand at the window
As the tears scald and start;
You shall love your crooked neighbour
With your crooked heart.'
It was late, late in the evening,
The lovers they were gone;
The clocks had ceased their chiming,
And the deep river ran on.
W.H. Auden