A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
This topic is about
A Dance with Dragons 2
Sansa...Queen in the North...
Sansa lost her Direwolf. I think that alone says she can't be queen in the North. Just saying. Seems like any Stark that's gonna rise to power will have one of those. I started liking her too around Storm. She wasn't being such a brat all the time then. One of our fellow readers here has a theory that she's gonna loose her shit & kill LF. Which might be cool depending on whose side he is on. :)
I don't see Sansa being Queen of the North, with or without a Direwolf. She is still under Littlefinger's finger. :)
If Sansa became queen of the North, i would feel sorry for the North, they don't deserve a stupid girl like her as their ruler.
doubtful, really doubtful unless she does something totally unexpected.
As much as I pity her for being the wide eyed victim of circumstance, she has shown precious little, not because she can't or isn't capable of doing so, but rather her position is one of such difficulty that he has little option but to play the puppet or the ornament. They say discretion is the better part of valour, and Sansa, and manipulable as she is has done rather a good job of staying alive in dangerous circumstances. I would like to see her be more proactive and less of a pawn for other's schemes, but perhaps she is smart and astute enough to turn those designs so that they favour her, in that she's going along with Littlefinger's designs just as long as they do not betray her.
You've got to agree prophecy can be pretty important in this series...can she be queen? I don't know but she will play a part in saving the realm I feel sure.
Sansa is like this little sponge right now, soaking up all that is around her, good and bad. let's hope that includes survival skills.With Ned Stark beheaded, and the rest of her family supposedly all either murdered, missing or gone, there is precious little ( mind the joke ) to filter out what is right or wrong.
I only hope that all the time she had with them was enough to instill in her what she needs to survive, and win!
I wonder if she will finally see Littlefinger for what he is, and torture him to death, or should we leave that to Cat Tulley? OMG, now that's a scene I'd almost love/ hate to read!
"nasty plans" Neida?Mmmmm just hugging myself thinking of it...lolololol!
It would be better if Cat tortured Littlefinger. After all, he is the one that loves her. So it would be sweet if she stuck it to him.
Ohhhh we are getting BAAAADDD in here. I just hope. Cat lasts that long.The last time we had contact with her she had one foot in the grave and another on a slippery rock or two.
What I'd really like to see is a plot!George.... Please give us a plot!
There is a plot. We just don't know how it is going to end.
SHOOT me now with a giant cross-bow PLEASE!!!!This is why I don't like jazz.... It has NO PLOT!
I need at least some breadcrumbs to follow, I don't mind
surprises along the way, just pick a plot and stick to it,
Although..... Life is like this too..... Ah hell, now I have to wait
4 more years for the next book.... I could be dead
before this all gets sorted out!
GEORGE! I'm coming for you!... I KNOW I CAN RUN FASTER THAN YOU!
I've seen your picture! You lazy fat %#@&$+€!
Sorry...... I got carried away...... I'll be good I promise!
I like to say I don't hate Sansa. I just don't see her becoming Queen of the North unless all the other Starks are dead.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "I like to say I don't hate Sansa. I just don't see her becoming Queen of the North unless all the other Starks are dead."I don't know - I think she is on a big growth arc. I adore Jon and Arya and Bran, but the only person who could actually defeat Sansa's claim (naively assuming they all live) would be Rickon.
I don't see Bran coming back south of the wall, his fate seems to be to influence things from where he is. Arya rocks but is younger than Sansa. Jon has the wrong parentage for a claim, no matter which theory you subscribe to.
My read on that bastard Littlefinger is to eventually try to reveal who his "daughter" really is and try to gain the throne, any throne, through her.
I just hope that by then, Sansa has grown / learned enough to him in his place...
If Sansa ends up being Queen in the North, this whole series is shit. I'd relocate to Dorne so quick.
Sansa for Queen of the North! She has my sword.
Does anyone else thing that if Arya becomes a Faceless (Wo)man, will she be snt to eliminate Sanss? After all she's being trained to forget Arya, might it be possible for her to forget her sister?
Woolfie wrote: "Does anyone else thing that if Arya becomes a Faceless (Wo)man, will she be snt to eliminate Sanss? After all she's being trained to forget Arya, might it be possible for her to forget her sister?"She still has Needle. I don't think she will forget. If anything Arya should be Queen in the North tho...
I agree Ayra should be Queen of the North. I don't foresee Arya killing Sansa. I think too much has happened and Arya isn't the same person.
If Sansa becomes of Queen of the North, it wont be because of her doing. She would most definitely be a puppet leader. She has no sense for anything. She assumes there is only one bad guy on the board, anyone who isn't currently making her suffer is instantly good and trustworthy. She immediately took to the Tyrell's when clearly it was fishy, them wanting to marry her off. (how do they have that right?) Then Ser Dontos wants to save her, really? She doesn't even consider motives or well anything. Tyrion acts like a gentlemen during their marriage and he's saved her multiple times from Joffery but b/c he's an ugly dwarf Lannister he is instantly evil. The saying out of the frying pan and into the fire, perfectly describes Sansa. Except she willingly jumps into the fire. If Littlefinger (or anyone) positions her to be queen she won't even consider it's not to help her "claim her right" or whatever b.s. they tell her. Clearly I'm not a fan of Sansa. I don't see a feasible storyline that makes her grow and mature into a player or being worthy of the Stark namesake. Sure LF is going to teach her the game, but do we really think she will learn it, turn it back on him and everyone and restore her family or the realm? No, not on her own.
Sansa Queen of the North hahahaha what a joke, The only hope for this would be for Ayra to get word of it and go back to be with her sister, and Sansa dying shortly afterwards, or renoucing the throne to Arya but giving the story so far probably dying. I think Arya will end up meeting with Dany and returning with her to claim the North.
Elizabeth wrote: "I'm pretty sure Sansa could be queen, she just can't be queen with someone like Littlefinger around."As much as i can't stand littlefinger, without him she has no shot at obtaining the throne
Bran can still take the throne. Granted someone would have to be regent.
Kati wrote: "If Sansa becomes of Queen of the North, it wont be because of her doing. She would most definitely be a puppet leader. She has no sense for anything. She assumes there is only one bad guy on the bo..."Give her break, she is just a 12-year old girl, seperated from her family, surrounded by
And in my opinion she is acting quite smart considering her situation and her young age. She learns to adapt perfectly, to trust nobody and to always keep her feelings in check... and that's exactly what kept her alive. Sansa is a survivor. She doesn't have any dragons like Dany, she isn't able to wield a sword like Jon or Arya and she also doesn't have any powerful allies... yet she still managed to survive. Sansa may not be physically strong, but neither are Littlefinger or Olenna Tyrell.... it's not really a quality you need in order to become a player.
So in a nutshell, I think Sansa has great potential.
Sansa is a very flawed character, yes, but so are most of George's characters.... which makes them extremely real and interesting (at least in my opinion).
I'll agree that she keeps her feelings in check, but I'm not sure she's completely learned to trust no one. She may have potential for some things but I just don't see her contending on a large scale on her own. Yes, she is 12 which is why I don't see a feasible story where she dramatically changes in the next 2 books or 2-3 years story wise. (Also, in this world she is almost a "women grown" this isn't the 12 yr olds of today.) In 5 books she has yet to show us she can think for herself, or decide what she wants. Surviving is one thing, commendable even, but you need to do more than survive to play the game. If she were playing chess, she wouldn't be someone who plans out her moves 10 steps ahead. She would play in reaction to the other person.
Her story and plot is interesting to read, but as a character she is lacking.
I can see her being queen of the north to Little Fingers King of the North. He clearly has plans to replace/shift his love for Cat to her daughter. Marry her, and own half of Westeros through Harrenhall, Lord Protector of the Vale and lawful right to Winterfell through marriage.
Arane, an excellent point, she's been in the lion's den far longer than any of her siblings, some f whom have encountered danger, but how many of them have to endure a psychotic narcissist and his fear-mongering nymphomaniac mother? In that sense she has very little room for anything, as a Stark, daughter to a traitor, any hint of her actions being other tha passive could land her in trouble. It's interesting to see that even after the Starks have been removed as a force to be reckoned with, she still retains her value. Do the Lannister's see her docility as the perfect attributes for a puppet Queen? How will she react if given true power? Will she be submissive and naive?Sansa has had to absorb a lt of terrible things, yes she has been relatively lacking when it comes to facing hardships of travel and forming new alliances, and we don't know how she would fare where her situation swapped with Arya, because she has never been given that opportunity, she's always been a Lady in the castle. And if like Arya she could run away, where would she go? Arya and Bran have gone of on their own little adventure both somewhat divorced from the reality of Westeros. Bran's gone to live in a tree (or as a tree as it were) and Arya is off learning what she thinks she eeds in order to enable her to fight back at those who she could not revenge herself on. Sansa does not of that, she adapts,like a stick insect she blends in in the hopes she'll be spared further horror, and looks to more cunning practitioners like Littlefinger and Olenna to help her out.
Hers is a different kind of bravery, one that is easily overlooked in a world where opportunism is rampant, as honour and justice mere empty words for the most part
Sansa has survived by doing NOTHING. If her and Arya were switched, both would be dead; Sansa would've been too naiive to survive what Arya went through, and Arya's too hot-tempered to make it a week alone in King's Landing.
I don't think there will ever be a " Queen " of the north. Not without a king anyway. That being said if there was, It probably won't be Sansa. She doesnt have the guts, fortitude, or the now present madness of her mother and certainly not the blind ambition or drunken insanity of Cerci ( I think ONE of each one of those is enough.)
Kati wrote: "I'll agree that she keeps her feelings in check, but I'm not sure she's completely learned to trust no one. She may have potential for some things but I just don't see her contending on a large sca..."I agree
Seed wrote: "Sansa has survived by doing NOTHING. If her and Arya were switched, both would be dead; Sansa would've been too naiive to survive what Arya went through, and Arya's too hot-tempered to make it a w..."She was smart enough to serve as Tywin's cupbearer.
Sansa queen of .... Flea Bottom. LOl thats the only place she deserves being queen of.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "She was smart enough to serve as Tywin's cupbearer"That was only in the HBO series, right? Am I remembering wrong, or wasn't she Bolton's cupbearer in the books?
Stephanie wrote: "Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "She was smart enough to serve as Tywin's cupbearer"That was only in the HBO series, right? Am I remembering wrong, or wasn't she Bolton's cupbearer in the books?"
Think you got it, Stephanie. I remember a lot of stuff about leeches in the book. ;p
That's where I'm getting confused lately. There seems to be a lot of switching characters around. They REALLY seem to like the prostitute " Rose " so she's bound to be around for awhile. She was switched for another character that was tortured right?
Sorry I got off the subject of Sansa. But I do think she is maturing, watching a manipulative master like Littlefinger surely is a great study for her.
Maggie wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "She was smart enough to serve as Tywin's cupbearer"That was only in the HBO series, right? Am I remembering wrong, or wasn't she Bolton's cupbea..."
That's Arya
Kenneth wrote: "Maggie wrote: "Stephanie wrote: "Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "She was smart enough to serve as Tywin's cupbearer"That was only in the HBO series, right? Am I remembering wrong, or wasn't she ..."
We were talking about Arya.
I am pretty sure Arya was Tywin's cupbearer in the books.
Possibly, but I seem to recall her being Roose Bolton's cupbearer, but I forget who came to Harrenhal first, but she was taken there when the Lannister's held it, but was Lord Tywin in charge at that point. A visit to a wiki of ice and fire ought to help
AH! The HBO series, as much as I enjoy it, is screwing with my memory of the plot! I guess yet another re-read is called for this summer.But on the subject of Sansa, I would like to see her emerge stronger at the end. Is she a firebrand like Arya? No, but my sisters and I are quite different. She doesn't have to cut out hearts to kick ass, eventually. I hope.
Arya hasn't cut out anyways heart. She gets people to do it for her :)
Ok, per the wiki: Tywin was @ Harrenhal when Arya was there. But, she was working in the kitchens under that Weese jerk. After she gets Jaquen to help her free the Northman the leadership changes over to the Leech Lord. She is cup bearer to him, but wasn't to Tywin.http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...
Anyways, I had forgotten Tywin was @ Harrenhal at all. Stephanie, you're right. Stupid HBO... :)
Oh, & I think Sansa needs to go coocoo banana's before she will get stronger. If she does. You know going crazy is like a brain re-boot. Would do her some good. Mwahahahaaha!
I hate Sansa..... she is so lame.. most of her chapters are lame.. she does nothing.. she is weak.. all she can think of is her songs.. and she cannot be queen in the north unless Dany gives up what she believes to be her right and Dany will never give up.. *spoiler* that's why Rob had to go.. I would have hated to see him fight Dany.. Only with book 4 and 5 Sansa seems to become more interesting....
I literally wanted to brain Sansa. What a pathetically weak little girl...THEN I THOUGHT WITH MY BRAIN...
She is literally without allies, any she would possibly consider are going to dupe her for a fool. She has no one... no knights, no allies, no skills, she was TAUGHT no skills. No combat experience like the boys, no safe haven like Bran or Rickon for a long while... nothing.
Oh, and she was in the city that was being sacked a few times as well, with a sadistic lil' boy and his mommy dearest threatening to kill her while beating her like an amusing dummy.
Dany has dragons... Dany also was around a barbaric tribe that taught her how to survive and endure pain and torment. Sansa never has this kind of experience. Bran breaks his body... he has a life changing experience. Robb has been groomed to be lord of the north, by his father. Arya has been groomed by the others letting her be unladylike and learn how to fight because it was assumed she wasn't going to be heir to anything or anything important really....
Sansa was the first daughter, and first daughters are wed to powerful allies... she was being groomed for THAT. Not the shitstorm that hit later.
The more I read her chapters as "this will shed light on what is happening in Lannister Town a.k.a. King's Landing" the more I can stomach her. I think she's growing... maybe the last two books she will finally turn the tables on everyone else... but WHEN HAS SHE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY? The Hound wanted to sell her for freedom, Littlefinger, to put it in Varys' words "Gods only know what game littlefinger is playing"... really? When did she have time to plan and plot? She didn't get that training... Arya, Robb, Jon, and the others had that training.
Sansa literally has to find this out HERSELF... No Syrio, or Lord Commander Mormont, or Jorah, or Bannister Selmy, or Dragons, or Age and experience, or Kingsguard... NOTHING.
That's why i'm starting to like her. I understand her position more that I have thought why she didn't do this or that... she has nothing and has done what she can, kind of like the female version of Tyrion. Tyrion had his nuts drop finally and that scene with Tywin was rediculously amazing... maybe something will happen with Sansa yet.
I still think Jon, Aegon, and Dany are the three head of House Targaryen's dragon, three making up the three headed dragon as the Azor Ahai reborn to stop the others... but GRRM is probably going to read this and do THE OPPOSITE just to piss me off :).
I see your point. Sansa wasn't my favorite to start but she is maturing so who knows.
And I'm actually convinced that Sansa will be queen at some point of the story. In my opinion, she is very likely to be the queen from Cersei's prophecy:
(view spoiler)["Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear" (hide spoiler)]
Cersei think that this younger queen might be Margaery and the reader is supposed to think it's Dany. But it might actually be Sansa Stark. Littlefinger has big plans for her...