The Sword and Laser discussion
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Hyperion
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Hyp: Chapter Four: Time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin'...
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There are real medical conditions where one continually loses short-term memory. Very hard to deal with.
This was the most affecting story, for me, for that very reason. I cannot imagine telling a child every day that their mother has died.
Good topic. Kassad's memory is invaded in a sense during simulations (chapter 2). Memory also plays a key theme in chapter 5 with the detective's tale.Time and memory are linked in our world. Each memory is from a specific time, but sometimes we have imperfect recall. False memories are also present.
The characters are each sharing their stories as their memory recalls and through their perception of the events. Also, the priest purposefully lies in retelling his story.
Peter wrote: "Time and memory are linked in our world. Each memory is from a specific time, but sometimes we have imperfect recall. False memories are also present."Pain, too. And isn't the Shrike called the Pain Lord?
aldenoneil wrote: "This was the most affecting story, for me, for that very reason. I cannot imagine telling a child every day that their mother has died."That was one of several points during the Scholar's Tale where I actually cried.
The last time I read this book was several years ago, long before I became a parent. It's been incredibly different, reading this story as a college student vs reading it with my kids asleep in the next room.
terpkristin wrote: "Peter wrote: "Time and memory are linked in our world. Each memory is from a specific time, but sometimes we have imperfect recall. False memories are also present."Pain, too. And isn't the Shrike called the Pain Lord? ..."
*cough*Tree of Pain
The Shrike is the Lord of Pain. He impales people on the Tree of Pain.
Jess wrote: "reading this story as a college student vs reading it with my kids asleep in the next room."Absolutely. Even with the shallowest/cheesiest of stories now (a group that does not include Hyperion, for me), if there's a kid in it, chances are it'll affect me somehow.
I can't stop playing videogames, mostly by happenstance, where the protagonist is a dad searching for his child (Silent Hill, Heavy Rain). I need a God of War chaser or something.
Needless to say this chapter was rough.
Jess wrote: "aldenoneil wrote: "This was the most affecting story, for me, for that very reason. I cannot imagine telling a child every day that their mother has died."That was one of several points during th..."
I also cried during the Scholar's tale. This was one of the few books that have brought me to tears. I think that is a testament to Simmons ability to transport you into the story.
Sol's story is told in the voice of Simmons or another entity. Deliberate or incompetence of the author.
Its like Wil Wheaton said about this book: If your a parent the scholars tale will destroy you.
The Scholar's tale was very effective for me as well. Another reason why this story was not only appealing to me, but also the one I've found most interesting so far was because of the obvious love that the couple had for each other.The one thing that I found refreshing was that Sol and Sarai were together through this whole ordeal and the only reason why she too isn't on this pilgrimage is because of an accident.
It seems to me that relationships and family is so devil may care throughout this book. All of the pilgrims up to this point are divorced men or in the case of the priest, unmarried. They don't really have any families to speak of. If they weren't to return from this pilgrimage then it doesn't really seem as if there would be anyone to miss them.
I have to admit that up until the Sol's story I wondered how a woman would allow her husband to take their infant daughter on such a perilous expedition. I've just finished Chapter 5 ( Brawne's story) so I'm not sure how this will turn out. I do have to admit that if something happens to Rachel in this I know I will be quite upset.
Wheaton is known for hyperbole.
The Scholar’s tale didn’t really do it for me. I have no kids, so maybe that’s the problem ;) The reverse living thing I’d already seen in Benjamin Button and Merlin stories, so the whole tragedy of that kind of got lost in a sense of not reading anything new. Not being much of an old testament type, the Isaac and diaspora themes also didn’t appeal much.I did like Sarai’s revelation which I felt was a great kick in the nuts, realigning the story subject from fatherhood to parenthood with an air of ‘what, you think you’re so special?’. You go, Sarai!
Tiffany, I agree that this is the only story that Simmons has any real relationships between people. I think he was writing of people he knew. Some writers write best of people they know. The other stories are rather trite and superficial. A lot of people seem to like them all the same.
None of it is really sci-fi but more like fantasy. Castles and gods and saviours and politicians and brave warriors, oh my. Plus an occasional wiring tunnel to make it science. LOL.
Karly wrote: "I think this is my favorite chapter so far. It was so sad but it was such a quick read and I got so into it: it made me feel more for the characters involved than any of the previous chapters. Mayb..."This was mine too, particularly since up till then I'd been more than a little upset with him for bringing "infant" daughter with him. Realizing the reason for her being with him made his story even more heart breaking to me.
I believed this was a well told story but was essentially a sort of retelling of The Curious Case of Benjamin Button short story which is a much older book (published in 1922). The deterioration of the main character also mimicked that of Charlie in Flowers for Algernon where you had someone so bright eventually revert to a earlier state.
Ok I know this is somewhat irreverent, but what happens to Rachel's hair each morning? Does it get shorter? I had a difficult time listening to this one, I imagine Sol's story is similar to what my parents have gone through with me to an extent, was mostly listening while driving to my parents' house for Mother's Day. But the entire time, part of me wondered what would happen to her hair...
Well since she was living life backwards her hair would get shorter and shorter until she got to a day where she had a haircut in which it would get long again. Plus it seems to pretty specific, given she remembers midterms, friends saying stuff, etc.
I felt so bad for Rachel and her parents.
Just finished the Scholar's tale. Wow - that was an emotional trip following on from the Poet's tale, and by far the one where I felt the most attachment to the characters.As for the concepts of memory, I agree that Simmons does appear to be focusing on them - in some respects subtly, in others quite blatently. It's interesting to see how there is the loss or invasion of memory and in a way I think that is linked into the issues of time - how people are aging at different rates due to FTL travel etc - as well as the advancement of technology. Maybe it is hinting at the prospects of losing parts of what makes us human, in some respects, as we become more technologically advanced - perhaps echoing the sentiments behind Silenus' Hyperion Cantos?
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How far into the Tale did it take you all to connect Rachel with the baby Sol has been carrying around? I admit I felt like I was slow on the uptake when I made the connection mid-way through reading about Rachel's regression.
I can sympathize a bit with hard science-fiction grumblers in terms of the plausibility of the backward growth. With things like the farcasters I can more easily imagine my own partial explanation (eg, fine-tuned, stabalized connected wormholes), and even the Shrike's ability to choose the speed at which time flows for it I could see being an advanced technology that still could fit in with known physics -- but it's much harder for me to imagine a plausible explanation for Rachel's regression -- it is the most 'magical' element of the book for me so far. That said, it doesn't ruin anything for me -- I'm just wondering if there's some attempt to explain it in the later books? And story-wise, it is echoed nicely by the time distortions around the Time Tombs, and the Shrike's ability to move at chosen speeds of time-flow, and as others have mentioned, the theme of memory.
Also really liked the parallels of the Sol's Shrike dreams with the Old Testament Jehovah demanding Abraham to sacrifice his son - and all the questions that raised for Sol about religious obedience, cosmic justice/injustice etc. And the fact that both he and his wife had (received?) the same dream was tantalizing as well. Of all the Pilgrims, I'm probably most interested in seeing what happens to Sol and Rachel at the end of this pilgrimage.
Jlawrence wrote: "How far into the Tale did it take you all to connect Rachel with the baby Sol has been carrying around?"I thought it early on when Rachel was introduced, but then she got older and I thought, "Oh, there goes that idea."
aldenoneil wrote: "Jlawrence wrote: "How far into the Tale did it take you all to connect Rachel with the baby Sol has been carrying around?"I thought it early on when Rachel was introduced, but then she got older ..."
Rachel = baby = somebody else we know - but that's book 2 - though the clues are there in book 1 and you'll slap yourself that you missed it(if you did). The tales are more intertwined than is immediately obvious.
David wrote: "Rachel = baby = somebody else we know - but that's book 2 - though the clues are there in book 1 and you'll slap yourself that you missed it"Rachel is Keyser Söze?
aldenoneil wrote: "David wrote: "Rachel = baby = somebody else we know - but that's book 2 - though the clues are there in book 1 and you'll slap yourself that you missed it"Rachel is Keyser Söze?"
Ha Ha - Not unless she is a "Hungarian" Jew.
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Tassie Dave wrote: "Huge spoiler clue. I'm glad I'm finished "Fall of Hyperion.""Is it if you haven't read the second book? I thought I was being cryptic enough. Just trying to pique interest - if everyone read book two we would be having some very different discussions.
I'd go back and edit with spoiler tags but am not sure how I would do it without erasing the whole post.
Karly - Keyser Soze was a character in the movie "The Usual Suspects" - A Hungarian(I think) crime lord whose identity is a mystery that everyone is trying to solve.
So far this was my favorite of the stories, and I really liked the first one a lot.I teared up several times during this story.
I loved how Sol had discussions with God. Very biblical, very human.
Since I'm listening to the audiobook, I'm surprised his name is spelled Sol (sun/son) instead of Saul.
Again with the themes of obedience vs. disobedience. My heart breaks for M. Weintraub (no idea how it is actually spelled).
And now you have to read book 2 right? Mission accomplished?
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It's a potential spoiler if you want to read "The Fall of Hyperion" (view spoiler) I'd have used spoiler tags just to be safe.
I love this story and the way it tears at you emotionally. Really made me wonder how I would cope in Sol's situation. I am amazed at how rational he seems and how he holds himself together, its almost unrealistic in a way I think most people would have lost the plot long before. It seems like mostly it's the love between him and his wife that gets them through it and you would understand if her death had pushed him further over the edge.In a way it's a very optimistic story in how he clings to hope and keeps going through it all
The bit where she forgets the 'see you later alligator' always hits me for some reason - I guess it's because you always have little rituals with your kids and losing that would be heartbreaking
Damn that chapter was one depressing read. I had originally thought that 'the baby' in the present was to be Rachel's sister, created purely for the sacrificial purpose, but then cottoned on while the doctors were stammering about the accident to Sol. I would probably say that having my own kids at various stages in their lives while reading this makes it a bit...harder.
David Sven wrote: "And now you have to read book 2 right? Mission accomplished?"Well, that worked on me.
This chapter had to be one of the most depressing things I have read in years.
Add me to the teary-eyed list. I gotta go hug my daughters now.
My God that was gut wrenching. If you're a parent you will recognize a lot of your life in this one. I don't know if I could do it. Fuck you Dan Simmons for making me cry like a little bitch.
This one is going to give me nightmares.
I'm way behind on this one, but so far this has been my favorite chapter by far. So good!
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button (other topics)Flowers for Algernon (other topics)
The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales (other topics)
The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat & Other Clinical Tales includes an anecdote called "The Lost Mariner" about a man who perpetually exists in 1945. Every five minutes or so, he loses all memory of what has just happened to him and he reverts to the state of mind and memory he had at age nineteen. At one point the author presents him with a mirror, showing him his grey-haired reflection, and the man responds with, "What's happened to me? Is this a nightmare?"
Simmons is dealing a lot with time, but also with personal memory (the Bikura have none, Rachel is losing hers, people are constantly cutting themselves off from making any by traveling in deep sleep) and subjective experience (dreams, internal conversations with God/a muse/the Shrike).
Despite it being a sci-fi novel, this stuff is very much still poorly understood in Simmons's world. Discuss.