Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
The Lobby - Introductions
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Why are you interested in Christian Apologetics?
Very aware of the councils. It's just that it takes a while for the religious to catch up with God.
YES, in some scenario's it is UTTERLY INVALID. Weren't the Apostles sent out in all directions? Why assume one direction gets to be in charge?
Didn't we ALL get the divine commission?
David are you saying we ran out of Apostles? OR brand NEW Apostles appeared... going out into all the world? Not sitting in one place?
It's simple, the Church came right out of Christ, Into the Apostles, into the LAND.But for some silly reason you assume it stopped at...?
WE now have a Bible that declares the truth and core of the divine commission. We CAN'T trust Mormons, Muslims, Charismatics, Catholics, Episcopalians, United Free-thinking Spiritists... We have God's WORD.
Only Christ's followers have Divine Commission - not endlessly babbling Popes and Social Gospel humanitarian do-gooders who mock God's word and decrees.
I'm just curious. Please show me your lineage of Popes (or even church buildings) from Jesus to Peter to... 2 Popes fighting over indulgences and hot chicks.
And I'm NOT an anglican. I'm a Bible believing, Jesus worshiping, predestined sinner, Saint of God.
"Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom."
Jesus said, "Truly, I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
I'll be more like Jesus. I doubt I will be more like Rome and:
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
Let's just stick with Jesus.
Not even purgatory for Judas. That is why Jesus had 11 others.
David, is Jesus and the Bible not enough for you? Why a faulty institution? Is the institution of the Saints not enough?
I'm against the Catholic Church: does that mean i'm going to hell? Official historic doctrine says YES. Or do they change it daily?
When was the Old Testament scrolls? When were the Gospel accounts? When were the New Testament letters? When were the Apostles who were filled with miracles and authority?...and later came a Catholic church. We've always had OTHER churches and councils. Why assume that one as the only one?
David have you put all your eggs in a broken basket? Why?
People were saved through Jesus blood, not a church necessarily.A church is the GATHERING of the saved. Not a means to the saved. (not necessarily).
The church is wonderful David, but Jesus is even MORE wonderful. I Never Knew You
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Religion won't save you. A church won't save you. WE need to know Jesus and His law personally.
You don't need to read the Gospel to have salvation. Just hear and accept it. Actually, all Jewish kids and Romans were most likely literate. What the Catholic church did with literacy is a whole nuther disgrace.
The Catholic church had a few good years in history. Some great people came out of that institution... But then there was nothing left to come out of. Remember when YOUR church put William Tyndale to death? Was it for sharing the Bible or not agreeing with the churches leaders? Either way --- time for a new church.
I've given you endless answers - you just don't want to accept (or think about) them. By all means make it interesting. So far you've had zero impact on selling me on your church. Please keep trying.
Sell me on how: My Jesus is nice, the Bible is nice, The Holy Spirit working in me is nice, Paul's doctrine and writings are nice...But if you aren't Catholic then you are GOING TO HELL!
What exactly do I need your church for?
Please know that the Mormons, J.W.'s, Muslims, Charismatics, and general cults have all tried the same thing on me. They failed too!They all made the same claim: Jesus just wasn't enough...
So I take it your Apologetic method is to easily give up when somebody doesn't argue the way you insist? There are no rules David. You should be endlessly inspired that you have a guy who's VERY willing to chat for months. Yet you failed to show the love of Christ and share the Good News. You simply FAILED.
Is that your church?
I take it you've had even LESS success with atheists and muslims? You have a lot to learn David.
Good thing you aren't thinking of becoming a Priest, or Apologetics teacher for Catholicism. Now go read some Peter Kreeft. OR better yet - read your BIBLE.
Rod, why can't you answer a simple question?"Before literacy and before the bible - who was saved and how?"
If you don't know the answer just say so. There's nothing shameful about that.
I recall posting THIS to your question: "People were saved through Jesus blood, not a church necessarily.
A church is the GATHERING of the saved. Not a means to the saved. (not necessarily)."
You asked that question twice David. Slightly differently as well.
I know you were probably expecting a dry instruction manual response to your attempt to pimp up your church --- but i'm more interested in your heart David.
David i'm trying to help you straighten OUT your thinking. At this point i'm not sure you are thinking at all. You are very stubborn and biased and not even slightly open to adding or subtracting from your thinking. You've posted almost no books on Goodreads - so i'm assuming you have read very few until proven otherwise. Especially books for AND AGAINST your biases.
I'll answer once again... just because Lee missed it as well.Question:
Sure Rod, now before literacy and before the bible - who was saved and how?
Before literacy? Just because some folks don't read doesn't mean they can't think, or listen to a sermon, or chat over dinner.
Now i'm not (supposedly?) chatting with an atheist. So we can brush past the history of salvation from Adam & Eve to Enoch, up through Abraham and the attempted sacrifice of Isaac... and just jump to Jesus dying and living again after the cross, paying the price for our sins that we could never pay. God's absolute Cosmic justice that is demanded by a Holy and Righteous deity.
Who was saved? People. More specifically - repenting humans.
How were they saved? By having God given faith in the Only Son of God (member of the Trinity) who died for our sins and Rose again.
Basically the Thief on the Cross scenario.
And this has WHAT to do with your Catholic Empire of chaos and sin? Even with nothing written down and no church Empire - WE still have the message as Jesus and the Prophets gave it.
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David, hopefully you aren't going back to day 1 with this question. Or day 8 with Adam & Eve.
"now before literacy and before the bible - who was saved and how? "
Cause then literacy wouldn't be such a big issue. People chatted like always - God and angels chatted as well.
David, just because you don't like an answer (and desperately fuddle around it) doesn't mean it isn't a very simple one. Joyfully IT IS!~Your very complaints tell me a great deal about the failure of Catholic theology and doctrine.
David the Bible has always been in Print. From Moses to today. And YES - million/billions have went to hell without it.
Did the 12 disciples have Print? Not really - they had Jesus and the Temple and those blessed and used by the Holy Spirit. As well as their parents and culture.
David what exactly do you think the Holy Spirit has been doing for 6000 years? What book did Abraham have? How much theology did he require?
Are you assuming the ENTIRE message for salvation went to ONE CHURCH and that was it?
When Paul, Peter, Timothy, John etc went out into the BIG WIDE WORLD do you not assume letters went with them? Everywhere? All the church did was collect some of these letters AGAIN at a later date. The letters kept going - with or without the church. Remember the Dead Sea Scrolls? There was much more than that.
We've always had preachers and missionaries. Don't assume Rome was the only starting point. What about India? Africa? China?
I think this is the Boast of your argument David:"Who taught the teachers in 800 AD Rod?"
Certainly NOT the Popes. Do you assume there was only ONE Bible? Apparently a lot of superstition and people going to hell happened in AD 800 (thanks to the Catholic church).
But again, thankfully Christianity was not located in only one room.
Here's a funny article I found:
Western History from 800 to 1073 was truly the dark ages, for there was political, economic and religious chaos. It may well be described as the medieval muddle.
The amazing thing is that the true church survived at all during this period, for the professing, external church (Roman Catholic Church) was sick, corrupt and ungodly. This is a period in church history that all church historians would like to strike from the pages of history.
The only mysterious process is The Gospel Message and the working of the Holy Spirit. We don't need a printed Bible to have salvation delivered - we simply need its contents.
David what do you think is God's part in all this?
You haven't yet convinced anyone that I misunderstand the Catholic chaos and failure. Your Golden Calf is destroying your Egg-basket cult.
David when your church leaders (Popes) and Councils disagree with itself - what do you do?
Lets have you answer the question put to you first Rod. Who taught the teachers in 800 AD - for the 3rd time.
Who taught the illiterate teachers in 800 AD Rod?
David do you DEMAND I say "the Catholic church was only place of literacy and all teachers were blessed by God through Roman Catholic Holy methods?"David you keep assuming the Church is one thing. One gathering. One building. IT never was - even in the Bible the church went numerous directions. Remember the churches in Revelation: 1.
4John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen
David i'm not saying The Roman Catholic church didn't occasionally do wonderful things and be used mightily of God. Many say it has.But the Catholic institution has INSISTED that ONLY THEY are of God. That's just silly (since we know they have endlessly abused their power and responsibility).
Here's a disturbing factual quote:
593 - belief in purgatory doctrine
600 - prayer to Mary and the Saints crept in
709 - the practice of kissing the Popes feet
995 - canonization of dead Saints
1079 - celibacy of the priesthood
1090 - praying the Rosary
1215 - transubstantiation and confessing sins to a priest
1439 - belief in the seven sacraments
The church wasn't always BAD. But after-awhile: there was basically no Biblical Jesus Gospel left in the church. Martin Luther didn't want a separation -- He wanted a Reformation BACK to the Biblical message and doctrine. The Church still had hope. The Catholic hierarchy refused to get back to the Bible... the end. God has now moved on.
God still moves on from many churches. EVen protestant churches drop the ball and become basically pagan at times. But the gathering of Saints has never died totally.
David, do you even care about Jesus? I don't sense any of that love from your arguments. That should horrify you. And it's not your kindness that i'm interested in - it's your Biblical priority on Christ. Like all religious cults - you seem to have left Jesus out in the car while you muck about with man's traditions and institutions. Please tell me how much you love Jesus. Just to make sure we are on the same team.
Lee pretends to love some still-dead failed Jewish guy from 1900 years ago that might have said a few wise things that weren't carefully recorded. Lee, I love you enough to waste endless hours sharing what a Loving merciful God has done to save your rebellious DUBIOUS sin-loving BUTT. Honestly, I can think of way more fun secular, humanistic, materialistic pursuits. But I actually care about your soul --- enough to show a few years of TOUGH LOVE.
I'm there for ya buddy!!!
Tolerance of evil IS NEVER LOVE OR COMPASSION. Be it towards liberalism or Catholic cults.
Ok Rod, you seem to feel the repeated need to demonstrate to us all that you know nothing of church history prior to Luther, and know far less about the early church, catholic doctrine, or history of the early church writings beyond the bible. We know you don't know. STOP TELLING US. We GET that you have no understanding of this which is WHY we are asking you to think past your indoctrination. Here it is one more time. You're in a field in 800 AD, and both you and your teacher of Christianity are illiterate. So are most of the people you've ever known. You've never heard of Luther, or seen a printed book. Nor has anyone else in 800 AD. Then you ask your teacher "How did you learn what you taught me about Christianity?" What does he say to you Rod? Answer with a question and we're done. Just drop your copy of "Poorly understood early church history for fundamentalists" turn off the TV and think... what does the teacher say to you. Remember, come back with a question - and we're done. Answer using your own mind....
David, you have proven you have given ZERO understanding or comprehension to any of my comments. You demand only one poorly thought about (and mostly unexplored) answer. That's simply sad.Yes, we are done. I have only one question though:
Please check which ones of these may apply to you (because i'm seeing some patterns here buddy).
9 behavior problem scales labeled Schizoid, Depressed, Uncommunicative, Obsessive–Compulsive, Somatic Complaints, Social Withdrawal, Hyperactive, Aggressive, and Delinquent.
There's a question Rod, I warned you... So we're done.
For the rest of you, here is the answer Rod simply couldn't say: The illiterate teacher learned what he knew from HIS teacher, who was also illiterate - by word of mouth. Some people today call this method of information sharing - TRADITION. Yes, there was a time before print, and people born before that time didn't all go to hell. We're done with this thread, but I hope you all can see the dangers of fundamentalism - and the extent to which it "cages" your mind. We seek Jesus who is the truth by EMBRACING the truth, not filtering our understanding through delusion or "Just the truths we'll accept."
David (event though we are done) That is a LOT of illiteracy in the house of Catholicism. Nothing to be proud of. Let me get this straight:
A bunch of Jewish fisherman managed to read and write. Some even gave us Gospels and church letters --- and yet once it was handed to the Catholic church EVERYBODY became illiterate and there were no more scrolls or copies???????????????
Thankfully: there was PRINT. Even Moses had that... unless you are meaning that the Catholic EMPIRE had no Bibles??? They had the blessing of God to be HIS church...and they had NO PRINT or literacy - WHAT, God ran out of paper? This is YOUR church David??? Then apparently it failed LONG LONG before the reformation came around.
Whew, Thankfully William Tyndale and Luther managed to create a WHOLE LOT OF PRINT for non-illiterate Reformers. (even if they are worshiping Satan: at least they have lots of paper.)
But since we are done... :cD
Now go see a counselor or physician. Please.
Then we can chat some-more.
And David, please post some books you read on your Goodreads account: you are coming across as not much of a reader or scholar. + I usually make a point NOT TO ARGUE with people who only read their OWN books. That's pathetic. Please get on that - I'm sure you've at least read some Catholic propaganda and Apologetics. Please post it.
Fun fact:I'm learning about the Bibles that Origen, Jerome, Augustine and Mesrop used.
How even in 404 AD the Bible was being translated and created to other languages.
David, are you in full theological agreement with Origen, Jerome, Augustine, and Mesrop? That would be interesting.
(please don't answer this - since we aren't talking anymore - and I obviously don't know anything about church history.)
Rod's version of history is utterly and completely false. In fact, there is the famous story of the "50 Bibles of Constantine" from 322 AD that dramatizes the lack of either a bible or even a resolved New testament to make such a bible. This is part of the "deception" of fundamentalism, that there were always lots of Bibles and lots of folks who could read them. http://www.ntcanon.org/Bibles_of_Cons...
Literacy rates were often under 5% at the time of Christ and stayed that way for many many years - http://evidenceforchristianity.org/we...Even in Europe, many years later, reading and writing were rare skills - http://www.philiplaberge.com/FamilyHi...
The printing press was invented in 1451 to spread the bible primarily - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanne...
In 800 AD - there was just oral tradition, and you never need to pick up a bible to know that. But who could possibly believe that most people were literate BEFORE the printing press? What would they even have to read, if even the bible hadn't yet reached Guttenberg's machine?
David comment: (who's not talking to me anymore)" But who could possibly believe that most people were literate BEFORE the printing press? What would they even have to read"
You don't get out much do you? Ever heard of classic libraries and literature?
It appears you are changing your statement to MOST people weren't literate. How deceptive David.
Lets be clear to all of the readers here. 1.) Rod has submitted NO EVIDENCE to suggest a majority literate population in 800 AD.
2.) He has no explanation on how the illiterate could be saved apart from a virtually nonexistent bible (for the public consumption).
3.) Neither has he explained how any not exposed to the bible (even before Christ) could possibly be saved, as there appears to be no apparent other mechanism.
History forces people to realize certain fundamentalist conclusions are simply absurd. As you all have seen me demonstrate, it doesn't take much sophistication to completely neutralize the fundamentalist attack on actual history. Remember the method I used here - and repeat it when you encounter the same problem elsewhere.
" The name of the Rose" with Sean Connery shows a fascinating image of where books, libraries and literacy were in 1327 A.D. These Catholic monastery's held what little survived the plague. People burned many such things to the ground fearing infection. It's quite an eye opened for the modern mind, many of which have no real understanding of the dark ages that came a full 500 years after the time stamp for our discussion here. The thought that we were that "backward" less than 700 years ago is incredible. We have the catholic church and those monesterys to thank for much of what written history we have that WAS preserved. Make any point about this that you like... but attacking the Catholic church who preserved literacy and the very books Luther inherited to create protestant fundamentalism seems absurd on it's face.
See - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091605/
OTOH though, just curious, without Luther, Tyndale and the Reformation, would we ever have modern science and liberal democracy?
Even if 25% of the people were literate (or 15%) that doesn't mean they should all be Catholics or go to hell. Ordained "Literate" Priests didn't seem to be doing much good anyway. Thankfully there were numerous Bibles in a few languages throughout the ages. Here's my fun thought:
If I became a 80AD Catholic - would that be good enough?
If I became a 150 AD catholic - would that be good enough?
If I became a 350 AD Catholic - would that be good enough?
Basically i can mostly do that. Could YOU David?
The problem is being Catholic took a turn for the stupid. Remember this:
593 - belief in purgatory doctrine
600 - prayer to Mary and the Saints crept in
709 - the practice of kissing the Popes feet
995 - canonization of dead Saints
1079 - celibacy of the priesthood
1090 - praying the Rosary
1215 - transubstantiation and confessing sins to a priest
1439 - belief in the seven sacraments
How far will YOU go in with insane Catholic Silly Dogma and bad theology David? What if Catholics in 2017 start praying with Space Aliens? Riding Dogs and Cats in the Mass? When would you say enough is enough - NEVER?
I'm not protestant or Catholic: Just the Bible. Which doesn't appear to continually be written by either church. So we are safe to stick with the classics.
David wrote: "Xdyj, I suggest you ask Descarte... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04744..."Descarte lived after the Reformation & the subsequent secularization. Would Cartesian philosophy be possible had he not felt the need to defend the Catholic faith?
David, I believe those dates are when YOUR church OFFICIALLY started embracing and implementing BAD THEOLOGY AND DOCTRINE. But the dates really don't matter - the simple fact that you embraced it AT ALL is danger enough... then refused to reform from it. So apparently I AM Catholic. From AD 70 to AD 592 (perhaps). The question is: what are you? And when do you stop embracing unbiblical ideas?
Yes, Luther wasn't perfect. Notice how I'm NOT a Lutheran. I'm not really a Calvinist either. I go all the way back to the Bible.
"Rod - we know for sure the bible didn't come out perfect"
What is perfect? Do you mean simple - like how Jesus was born through the offspring of David, and almost didn't happen due to numerous villains and interference's? The Bible is beautifully messy AND WHOLE.
Don't assume we really NEEDED the church to put a stamp on God's book. Jesus didn't need an authorized stamp either: Other than GOD himself saying "and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Do you assume the Jerusalem Temple Priests should have authorized Jesus with a stamp? In some ways they did - they helped. Same as the later church HELPED with the Bible.