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Why are you interested in Christian Apologetics?
message 51:
by
Rod
(new)
Dec 11, 2013 10:21AM
Yes, the truth is a bit of a curse.
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Brent wrote: Comfort is hardly a prerequisite for t..."I don't believe comfort is a prerequisite. However, I do believe that when someone has a want and/or need to be fulfilled, then he/she person will grasp and accept anything that will fill them; while committing cognitive dissonance in the process. Thus, as you put it, the delusion(s) will begin.
Robert wrote: "Judy - I'd like to see your link. I fear I've become cynical. "Love" has stretched to epic proportions. Just last night I learned from a commercial that the perfect man always picked up a rescue pu..."Robert, what link is it you'd like to see? You have to excuse me if I missed something in one of my approaches. I haven't gone over all of them because I have a page at FB where people are waiting to get the link here. So hopefully we will be welcoming new comers who are interested in Biblically based facts.
I started a page or group on FB about Christian Talk but it is not active. I can't understand why some people don't want to discuss the most important aspect of their lives. As for myself, God and everything that entails is my greatest joy. Plus it is our salvation.
It is so important to be in God's Word continuously. I know that I want my soul clothed with Christ and to be truly ready if I'm here when He returns or when I die. It is so easy to become complacent and lax. I don't ever want that to happen to me. I want Jesus Christ in my life; mind, heart, and soul, everyday. I want my soul clothed with Him.
I think there is much integrity and respect here so I bragged you up a bit. So, now I return to FB to give the link here and invite others to join in.
Lee wrote: "I began to wonder today if life is better as a Christian. I mean, what Christian would not agree? Wouldn't that be convincing enough ... that your life will be better if you follow Jesus? To that e..."Wordly, I don't think it is necessarily better. Even the Bible says we will suffer. I am disabled and have a new and emerging illness, however, this does not take away my joy of being a Christian. Being a Christian is what has kept me from taking my own life, to be honest.
I believe strongly in what Jesus says and I believe in acting upon what He says in a good fruitful way. I want to live my life per Psalm 119. I think it is just beautiful and had tears in my eyes the first time I read it.
There is nothing more important or precious in life than being a Christian. These are my beliefs. I love god with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, just as the Bible says we should do...and I feel this with my heart.
I have no more inhibitions about talking about or Lord anymore. I use to. I was always afraid of what people would think, you know, how they use to call people Jesus Freaks. But it took me reading the Bible too to understand that "born again Christian" is not a sarcastic way to refer to people who speak Biblically. Actually, it is a necessity in one's Christian walk. I learned this in the NT. I never knew that before. How naïve was I? But now, if the scenario arises, even in a grocery store, I will talk about Biblical matters. I am proud to speak about it and to be sure, to know what I am saying is truth, tangible, and most important than anything.
I would like to say that I love everyone here as my brothers and sisters in Christ.I am very much enjoying being a part of this community and glad I stumbled upon you.
May God look down upon everyone here with favor and shower His blessing upon you daily.
Yours' in Christ,
Judy
Judy, if I may be blunt, then if Christianity doesn't make life better it's worthless. Why bother? And why believe Jesus was right about anything else, if he was so wrong about the gospel being good news?
Sorry Judy but Lee doesn't really get IT. He's very liberal - to the point where Jesus is nothing more than a nice idea.Thank you Judy for sharing your heart and challenges with us. We need more of that around here.
I just finished Joni Eareckson-Tada's NEW book (a biography of her marriage through disabilities). the best thing I've ever read for dealing with health issues in a Christian life.
Precisely what do you think the "good news" is, Rod? Look it up in the Bible if you're not sure. ;)
According to Easton's Bible Dictionary, "gospel" mean: "the welcome intelligence of salvation to man as preached by our Lord and his followers" (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources...). Being a Christian doesn't mean sunshine and roses, read Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
Lee wrote: "Judy, if I may be blunt, then if Christianity doesn't make life better it's worthless. Why bother? And why believe Jesus was right about anything else, if he was so wrong about the gospel being goo..."Christianity takes you to Eternal life. This world is not our home. Our true home will be when this world is demolished and a new Heaven and Earth made where there will be no sorrow, no problems, no sickness or pain. It will be perfectly sinless. It will be perfect. Isn't this future worth a little suffering here and now.
Plus, what we go through is nothing compared to the anguish Jesus suffered a s fully human. He felt those nails, thorns, etc. just as any of us would. But it was His love that he did it and also because he wanted to do His Father's will.
I can't explain the Triune Godhead to you. No one can. We don't have the intellect to comprehend such a matter. But I believe the Holy Spirit has entered my soul and moves me to do things I may never have thought of doing. Even with disabilities and illnesses, I want to live my life with them to the Glory of God's name. It is all for Him. He created this world to have a relationship with people and look what He got. Is it any wonder He wants to clean it all up in the End Times and have what He intentionally started out to do. God id fair and just. He hates injustice. Because of this He has to punish people at the End Times and He had to have the perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins; Jesus Christ. Not like in OT times where they used sheep and such. It had to be a human.
I think Christianity makes life better not by changing your circumstances but by giving you the attitude to handle any circumstances. As St. Paul said, we can be joyful in plenty or in want.My thought is that receiving grace, being in relationship with God through Jesus, living as a disciple of Jesus, is the most fulfilling way to live. For example, it is more satisfying to give then to receive. God does not command generosity and call greed a sin as a sort of arbitrary choice; one is definitely better then the other.
Along with that is the hope of a better future, as Judy touched on. I don't think eternal life is just future, it begins now, but you have the hope that this world of evil and suffering is not the end of the story.
A few other points:
*Rod, do you even read what Lee says? I've engaged with him long enough to know he thinks Jesus is more than just a nice idea.
*Anthony, I think "gospel" is much more than just salvation by grace through faith, if that's how you were defining it.
David I'm still piecing together how confused Lee is towards the Bible & theology. (Same goes for you David.) But basically Lee does the same thing Satan did in the garden of Eden: "Did God REALLY say...?"
Gospel and salvation are two different things to me. The gospels teach us about salvation and salvation means different things to different people. For myself, salvation is freedom.
I agree, AW. Gospel and salvation are two entirely different things. The "gospel" Jesus brought was not afterlife-oriented. It was directed at everyday people all around him, bringing respite to the poor, the marginalized, the hungry, the cold. The good news is that the Messiah has finally arrived, and the world was going to be different now under God's rule. So, Judy, I disagree with you 100%. I don't know if there is really an afterlife; I find that irrelevant to my walk with Jesus. I personally am agnostic. I am not saying that Jesus didn't believe in life after death. I am saying that Jesus' vision for this earth, his "Kingdom of God" and what he taught, was this-worldly. It was about improving our world. Christianity and the Gospel, if we go clear back to Jesus' message, isn't about life after death at all.
So how much did Jesus talk about life after death? A whole bunch. Did he speak of Hell? Heaven? A Kingdom? How did you miss all that Lee?
(I realize he also spoke about many other things.)
My favorite verse in the Bible:
Luke 23:43
…42And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
I would call that the afterlife. :D
Maybe we should count them, Rod, to see where the emphasis was. The most important message of Jesus is the Kingdom, of course, but that has nothing to do with life after death.
I don't see much of a Kingdom NOW. Has he failed? All I see is chaos and sin (even in the church).Jesus had many wonderful messages. I like the one where he's our savior and beats sin. :D
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Mark 7:20-23 ESV
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
That's just in-case some of us forgot what SIN was. That was a huge part of Jesus message.
N.T Wright said best: "To say that Jesus was a good moral teacher would be like saying Mozart wrote some good tunes." Anyway, you're not a alone in this discussion David; you and I actually see eye-to-eye on some stuff. I believe in an afterlife but I (unlike others) don't obsess about it. I mainly deal with things that are in the here and now. When I read some of the stories in the New Testament, I see Jesus dealing with situations that arose in the moment, however the lesson(s) and solution(s) given have the ability to be applied in modern times.
Anthony - is this another attempt to paint Jesus as liberal activist? All he did was see some poor and heal them, encounter sinners and let their faith save them, and preached God's word to the multitude. He was briefly IN the world doing His Father's work but not OF the world. History is replete with iniquites and injustices. It is not the Christian's duty to fix them, but to minister to the victims and introduce them to the Savior. People like Nelson Mandela fix injustices, but they are not above planting a few bombs, shooting a few people in the way, and employing other tactics Christians shouldn't be involved with. If you follow Christ, you pick up your cross and follow Him, not keep your finger planted on the social pulse and aim your good deeds at whatever is popular within the present culture. Unfortunately, you won't be invited to all the glitzy parties for Save the ?????????, but at least you'll be able to focus on the Lord's message for you.
Maybe we should go back to what Jesus actually said his mission was:The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Your anti-liberal blinders, Robert, are keeping you from seeing what Jesus was trying to accomplish on the earth. It was very this-worldly. As AW put it, "obsessing about the afterlife" is a distraction from the Christian purpose.
But Jesus is so much more than that Lee. Luke 20:34-
34Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Jesus was a teacher of the after life. He mentioned it many times.
My Bible verse is bigger then yours!LOL.
My point is that all Bible verses are the same size. And should be considered.Most people ignore huge portions of the Bible because it helps them sleep at night. The god they have made in their own image is tucked in nicely for a long winters nap. :D
Robert- I'm not trying to paint Jesus as a left-leaning social reformer. What I meant, was that everyone that Jesus encountered had a crisis at the moment and the way He solved the crisis is still applicable to the here and now. Which places the books of the Bible as living documents, rather than dead ones. What I mean by my afterlife comment(s) is that I'm not a Christian because I'm worried about going to Heaven. I'm a Christian because I believe and accept what Jesus did at Calvary. If someone is a Christian just so he/she can dodge hellfire, then that person might need to do some praying and introspection.
ROd (in response to 62) - I am very confused on most things. All I know is I am a mess and my only hope is in the risen Jesus. You said in the first post here that all you want is truth - well, Jesus is the way and truth and life. So you already have it (or should I say, Jesus has you). I suspect we know a lot less then we think we know in terms of theology. I think God is okay with that. The disciples did a lot more great work then we do and we could probably out-theology them. I saw a quote once of someone saying John Owen would destroy Polycarp in a theology contest, to argue the early church was a bit shallow. To be fair, John Owen could probably wreck most authors of scripture in a theology contest. Doesn't mean a thing.
Rod, you are saying that if someone asks Jesus a question about the afterlife, he should refuse to voice his opinion?I'm merely pointing that Jesus told us what his mission on earth was, and it was not to steer people into a pleasant afterlife. His mission was to change this world.
I am not particularly concerned about the afterlife. Today's beliefs are as ambiguous and tangential as those of the early church, who could agree on heaven and hell no better than we can. This does little to inspire any particular belief in me toward the afterlife.
What I AM concerned about is helping Jesus build the Kingdom of God on earth that he envisioned. This is what Jesus wanted.
I don't think Jesus is building a Kingdom on earth at the moment. This world is getting worse everyday. It will never incrementally get better. WE are not making progress. Here's why:The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
I'll wait for the end of the age.
David comment:" All I know is I am a mess and my only hope is in the risen Jesus. You said in the first post here that all you want is truth - well, Jesus is the way and truth and life."
Great post David. It's true that we do not need to know everything. But the little we know must be the truth. for instance:
How many religions say they love Jesus? Islam, Mormon, JW, Branch Davidians, Mooneys etc... I bet they all claim Jesus is the way, the truth and the life as well. So what the HELL happened after that?
That is the difference between people who just settle on the milk and never move to the serious meat of the Word of God. God gave us a huge Bible for a reason. WE NEED IT.
I don't think God is ever okay with us not questing for more knowledge about him. The Holy Spirit should be directing us to his Word daily.
You made a great point Rod. Different groups cite Jesus but do their citations measure up with the gospels? The short answer is no. I had a conversation a few hours ago with my brother, folks tend to conform Jesus and God with their personal view points rather than allowing the formers to do the latter. Also, I agree that it is important to ask question and seek out the answers. Although some stuff requires faith, there are other subjects that beg for further research.
Here's a fun challenge David:If you were put in a huge room with a million Muslim scholars (this could easily happen!) would you defend your Biblical beliefs no matter what they threw at you? Or would the majority cause you to alter your opinion based on Peer pressure.
Personally I am preparing myself to take on every opposing force.
But the same challenge can easily be applied to the mormon university. They could throw endless scholastic dribble at you until you would rethink what you know - unless you've done your homework.
I look forward to taking on the Vatican someday. Those old farts aren't as smart as they think. (i'm not that smart - i'm just rebellious and defiant and loyal to the Bible.)
I think what I hear you saying in 77, Rod, is that you consider Jesus a failure at what the Bible says he came to do, so you regrouped and decided Jesus must have come for some other reason? There are three other possibilities:
1. Jesus really did fail.
2. Jesus didn't fail because what he did was set in motion a process that has not yet ended.
3. You misunderstand or cannot see what Jesus did or is doing.
Lee and Anthony - I didn't mention the afterlife in msg # 69 so you 2 must be bringing your own biases. All I said is I'm trying to pick up my cross and follow Jesus (the entirety of Jesus in his most broad sense which Rod advocates, not the alter ego Jesus social activists favor), and trying to persuade unbelievers to do the same. Judy - just be thankful your son married someone redeemable like a Catholic and not someone REALLY slimy and repulsive like a liberal!
when new people show up and catch our verbal sparring here, it's a wonder they don't turn tail and flee.
Lee's fun thought:1. Jesus really did fail.
2. Jesus didn't fail because what he did was set in motion a process that has not yet ended.
3. You misunderstand or cannot see what Jesus did or is doing.
So what exactly do you think Jesus is doing Lee? How's YOUR world? Is it getting better?
What did they think apologetics was going to be - a completely civilized garden party?
As a matter of fact, Rod, the more I follow Jesus' example of making life better for others, the better my own life gets. Maybe karma is real.
Robert,I agree with you about the "alter ego Jesus" that most, like John Spong, try to push. Which is why I quoted N.T Wright. If someone oh thinks that Jesus' only purpose was to teach social reform and that's it, then that person is missing the point of His time on earth. As I said before, the bible is a living document that can be applied in every situation. If we truly love Jesus then we need to live out the teachings He brought forth, but it should be done out of love; not trying to dodge Hell.
Rod, I agree we ought to seek to grow in our knowledge of God. But I don't think just acquiring more information = growing in knowledge. We tend to separate belief and action, and I don't think that is a biblical separation. In other words, it is impossible to have faith without works. So "meat" is a whole lot more then just knowing theology and bible. Maybe meat is living more like JEsus. As for love, my point is more about God's love for us. I unconditionally love my daughter, regardless of mistakes she might make in her knowledge of me. Like when she peed on the floor or put her lollipop on the couch, I don't stop loving her. Its a wee bit of grace, God is much greater. There is no fear in love, perfect love drives out fear.
As for being in a room with a million Muslims. That'd be a big room, eh? I don't think I would altar my opinion...well, it depends what we are discussing. I am flexible on a lot and think we might have a lot in common. But can someone convince me that grace is not real? That Jesus on the cross did not demonstrate unconditional love? That'd be like someone trying to convince a toddler daddy doesn't really love them.
We agree David: knowledge without love or actions is rather shallow.I'm glad to hear you would make a theological stand against one million Muslims. :D
What good would be having a faith that we cannot defend with logic and scripture as our tools? God has given us every defense necessary against all enemies. The greatest is when we can change their hearts and they no longer exist as an enemy./...it does happen.
Lee wrote: "As a matter of fact, Rod, the more I follow Jesus' example of making life better for others, the better my own life gets. Maybe karma is real."Lee; do you seriously consider yourself an agnostic? If so, how do you bode so well knowing that you are following a mad-man, who was praying to the His Father, the God of the Old Testament, whom you are unsure of His existence--notwithstanding your presupposition of objective moral ethics and intrinsic human value to the contrary?
Did you seriously just throw in Karma? How can one cleave to so many logical contradictions and still claim not to be dillusory?
haha. Yes, I'm an agnostic, Brent. I suspect Jesus' religious beliefs were a bit quaint, even by today's standards. Even though he was ahead of his time, he was probably mired in first-century Judaism. It is not Jesus' religious beliefs which inspire me, but his humanitarian vision. I can say the same about Martin Luther King.I am an agnostic liberal Christian. I do not see Christianity as a religion, but as a way of life.
For the record, I misused the word karma, knowing its real meaning (that we are reincarnated into a caste reflecting the way we lived our last life) and instead appealing to its silly popular meaning (that what goes around comes around). Of course it was in jest.
Lee have you considered joining up with the Baha'i faith. I'm not kidding - what you choose to believe seems to fit very well with many of their teachings. Why hang around Christianity when you could have 2 million brothers all in agreement?OR would you miss ME? :D
I would miss you and Jesus both, Rod. But thanks, I'll check it out.
Lee wrote: "haha. Yes, I'm an agnostic, Brent. I suspect Jesus' religious beliefs were a bit quaint, even by today's standards. Even though he was ahead of his time, he was probably mired in first-century Juda..."I figured as much about your quip concerning karma, Lee.
Curious and curious: Please explain to me how your humanitarian ethics are warranted given the absence of God--assuming you a truly an agnostic and not a theist who just hasn't clearly defined his theism.
Brent - this is like Groudhog Day - we've suffered through Lee's tortured reasoning for his worldview on this board before. However, if one needs a living bad example of how Not to follow the Lord, perhaps he'll once more provide it so we can show it to our children as a prima facie example of a false prophet.
I don't recommend you join the Baha'i faith Lee. I see it as demonic. :DBut rather than endlessly adjust the Bible (and cherry pick it) for your personal biases it would save you some effort.
I meet many Christians who really should join other religions. The most popular is the ones who assume they are going to a heavenly paradise if their good outweighs their bad. They should just become Muslims. Neither are really appreciative of what Jesus has done for them.
The worst is the charismatics who really long for Witchcraft and Harry Potter spells - yet complain like Voldemort that they are the good guys who know what's best for everyone.
Religion makes people crazy. That's why i'm just a Bible believing Christian. So simple.
Robert wrote: "Brent - this is like Groudhog Day - we've suffered through Lee's tortured reasoning for his worldview on this board before. However, if one needs a living bad example of how Not to follow the Lord,..."HAHAHA ROBERT! You have be ROLLIN in my chair. Literally laughing out loud because I sense your disgruntled head-ache through my computer screen. I think even Bill Murray would have gone crazy if things were never set back straight!
One thing I know, is that I'm definitely raising my kids up in the fear of the Lord--God willing I have kids someday (:
Brent McCulley
P.S. LEE, you don't need to answer my question! I'll save everyone the pain and anguish of groundhog day!
(:
haha. Well, recognizing first that I try not to entangle my religion with my discipleship of Jesus (best to keep the two completely separate, for one is of practical value and the other is purely amusing speculation), you may be on to something, Brent. I may be a confused theist.I am quite happy using the word God to describe the things attributed to God: Love, compassion, beauty, awe, wonder, even religious experience. I can say "that's a God thing" when I see my daughter-in-law holding her newborn son. I just don't pretend to know anything more about him/her/it. I certainly see no reason to believe this God is also our creator. In particular, it's very hard for me to imagine God as an intelligent being who interacts directly with us. Pantheism feels more logical at this point in my life.
Nevertheless, I admit Jesus couched his vision for this world in very religious language.
Robert wrote: "Caleb - if you start from the premise that everything we say is rigidly self-serving, you will be able to pick up a few useful maxims, some of which may even line up with Christianity. You're alrea..."I'm am reassured to see guidance and encouragement like this. I must say, this whole group is very intimidating, but there is great wisdom to be found here. I decided to check it out because I write faith-based books for non-faith based readers (I wouldn't dare mention the books here!) and, after getting my MA in Theology, came to understand that this work is often folded under the heading of Apologetics. After reading many of the threads over the past month or so, I'm not so sure. If these discussions are mainly what Apologetics are about then I think the field is a little too "insider baseball" for me. When trying to connect with the culture I think we need—in the Spirit of Pentecost—to speak to the culture in a language they understand. But I'll keep listening:)
