The Bookhouse Boys discussion
This topic is about
Sometimes a Great Notion
Sometimes a Great Notion discussion
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Also, I think it's really awesome.
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That was first thing I thought when I realized I was loving it. "Great, now I'm going to have to gut Jason and ride his carcass like a sled down Jerkface Mountain!" ;)
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That was first thing I thought when I realized I was loving it. "Great, now I'm going to have to gut Jason and ride his ..."
I realize I hated Ragtime, Heart is a Lonely Hunter, Affliction, The Third Policeman....hell, all of the books we've read. Naturally I'd hate this one too...jerks. ;)
I'm not very far yet (42 pages, I think) but I like it so far. The prose has an interesting rhythm to it. It feels like one of those books that has the kind of narrative density that convinces you these must have been real people, living their real histories. I'm definitely drawn in.
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message 8:
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Matt, I am the Great Went.
(last edited Mar 04, 2012 10:15AM)
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rated it 5 stars
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One's all slanty and the other makes the words look like they're in a hotdog bun. Next?
I'll write a real reply later...sorry. :\
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It feels like I'm reading Dune again sometimes with all the nested thoughts.
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message 12:
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Matt, I am the Great Went.
(last edited Mar 04, 2012 02:55PM)
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rated it 5 stars
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Me, too. I haven't dedicated much brain-space to figuring out the pattern, but I have been trying to notice what moments are being juxtaposed when there's leaps (view spoiler) Wow. This is blowing my socks off. Pure poetry.
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I think I smell another one of them there unreliable narrators in Leland. (To say the least.)
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We seem to have a changing narrators situation going on. First chapter was (I think) told in the third person omniscient; but that narrator doesn't completely go away, even in the following first person narrative chapters. Instead, he seems to interject random observations about what other characters are thinking in italics or in ALL CAPS. For instance, in the third chapter, when Hank is trying to connect with Lee over the sunset, we get this:
"There. Look there. There where the sun is."
"There what?" WATCH OUT. "Where?"
I start to tell him but I see he just can't see it, it's clear he can't. No more than a color-blind man can see color. Something is really haywire with him. So I say, "Nothing, nothing. A salmon jumped is all. You missed it."
"Oh yeah?" Lee keeps his gaze turned from his brother, but is alert to his every move: WATCH OUT NOW...
Not sure yet why Kesey has chosen this approach, as it seems to undercut his decision to go with changing narrators. Guessing (hoping?) that'll become apparent as the book goes on.
Where the second chapter was told by Leland, the third is told by Hank. At least, I think it is... Hank seems to speak about himself in the third person as often as not (though not exclusively). I'm trying to suss out why exactly Hank drifts back and forth between referring to himself interchangeably as "Hank" and "I." Do certain events trigger different ways of telling his story? Or is it meant to be a colloquial thing I'm just not picking up on? For instance (italics mine):
He stared at the dark pool of fur as at a dark window, trying to see through it, as Hank entered the house...
When I got on in the kitchen I saw the old man's already up to his elbows.
This technique seems to be unique to Hank, at least thus far. Any ideas?
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In your exaample dialogue above, the "WATCH OUT" is not, IMO, a third person omniscient narrator; it's Leland himself, remembering the tricks that Hank used to pull on him when he was a boy (and his own panicked reactions to them.) That's consistent with many other places in the book where Kesey uses italics, caps and parenthesis to denote internal thoughts. Exactly how and why he chooses which of those methods to use at which times, I haven't stopped to figure out.
It's complicated, for sure. It's easier to follow than to explain, at least.
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Dave wrote: "I haven't detected any rhyme or reason to how any of the conventions are used. Might not be easy to explain, but it sure isn't easy to read, either. This book shoulda come with a decoder ring."When I first read this book, the first 40 pages or so really pissed me off. And then somehow, I slid into it and I understood how to read it, and I absolutely loved it. Re-reading it now, it's really interesting to hit my stride right off the top. I kind of miss the struggle.
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The more experimental, italicized voice has returned after a revelation, of sorts (view spoiler)
When I first read this book, the first 40 pages or so really pissed me off. And then somehow, I slid into it and I understood how to read it, and I absolutely loved it. Re-reading it now, it's really interesting to hit my stride right off the top. I kind of miss the struggle. I'm a bit relieved to hear this. I thought my struggles were an exclusive lot and this encourages me to continue with the book.
message 21:
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Dave Alluisi, Evolution of the Arm
(last edited Mar 17, 2012 07:07AM)
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rated it 3 stars
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Here's the trailer. From the studio that gave you Airport: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vCQtr...
message 22:
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Matt, I am the Great Went.
(last edited Mar 17, 2012 08:54AM)
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rated it 5 stars
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You can rent it through Amazon or iTunes. I could also take to the high seas for you. I don't want to watch it until I've finished the book. I wish I hadn't known the cast, because it's affected the way I visualize it.
I forgot to say how trippy it was that the Wakonda Theater/Laundry was screening a Paul Newman movie!
EDIT: Hmm. It's not available at those places anymore. Weird. It used to stream on Netflix, too.
Dave wrote: "Anyone have access to the film version of this novel? It was made in 1971, directed by (and starring) Paul Newman. Also stars Henry Fonda, Lee Remick, and Michael Sarrazin, among others. Doesn't se..."I have promised myself that I will never watch that movie. As much as I like the actors, I know there's no way it's going to measure up to the book in any way. I'd rather not be disappointed.
And I know I'm probably a little behind everyone, but I just had an interesting thought: (view spoiler)
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Hmm, I didn't think of it like that, but I like the idea, dramatically speaking. I thought of it more like the final way to fail for Lee. He can't even kill himself right, unlike his mother, so he rises from the ashes of that ultimate failure to go and wreak vengeance on the believed source of the source of all his problems: Wakonda, Henry, and most especially HANK.
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I'm interested in the weird dynamic between Henry, Hank, and Lee. It's very much as though Henry is Lee's grandfather and Hank his father, even though that's not the case. I think Lee even makes a comment to that effect early on, about his Oedipal feelings towards Hank. Is pregnant Viv more than just a way for him to get revenge, but a stand-in for his dead mother?
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In a way, yes, although I also get a Wade Whitehouse vibe from Hank, in the sense that his intentions often outpace his actions. There is (by page 180) enough evidence to make me believe that Lee was treated as an outcast/object of ridicule by Hank, enough to make Lee bitter and revenge-minded. Hank is obviously not a villain, and he wants to be closer to his brother, but he also admits many times to himself that he's his own worst enemy.
If we weren't in Hank's head, I don't think we'd look as kindly on him.
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The book definitely started with the Stamper vs. the union aspect, and that's important, but for me it's become all about the inter-family relationships. I have a feeling the latter will inform the former by the end.
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Thanks, bromigo.
Working on a pitcher of ice-cold Olympia and watching a bug zapper while listening to classic country sounds pretty good right about now.
Hmm, appears I have some serious catching-up to do. At least I'm reading it again.
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April 3rd - Skip Week. Talk amongst yourselves
April 10th - Mini
April 17th - Mini
April 24th - The Grifters with special guest
May 1st - Conclusion of Sometimes a Great Notion
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Nice! I hope it grows on you like the moss up the side of an Oregon pine.
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Matt wrote: "I accidentally spoiled the severed arm's owner. I should really be sequestered when I'm reading a book."
Are y'all way ahead of me or did I miss something?
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Huh? We talked about it on the show. I said it was clearly described as being a human arm with the fingers tied down to have the middle finger extended. I asked you guys who you thought it might belong to? You didn't think it was grown in a cloning lab, did you?
Jesus...now I know how DAP feels. Why do I bother talking?
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Huh? We talked about it on the show. I said it was clearly described as being a human arm with the fingers tied down to have the middle fin..."
What I meant was that by confirming that the owner of the arm is the person you speculated it was during the show, you made the speculation a proper spoiler. Make more sense?
There's only room enough around here for one "nobody loves me" guy and I've already staked out that territory. And you'll never know how DAP feels. He's a private, tortured soul. ;)
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Huh? We talked about it on the show. I said it was clearly described as being a human arm with the fingers tied down to have t..."
I didn't confirm anything about my speculation, actually. I spoiled it for myself by carelessly Googling something like "Sometimes a Great Notion & severed arm" and it came up in the search results.
Nothing has been spoiled for others except that there's a human arm flipping the bird. That's it.
I can be tortured all I want.
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http://bookhouseboyspodcast.podomatic...
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We agree. Never assume...weenus. ;)
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He was on his 11th joint in a row when he wrote that.
(I'd pay a thousand petite morts to see Jason write a Lee/Floyd fuckface-off.)
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He was on his 11th joint in a row when he wrote that.
(I'd pay a thousand petite morts to see Jason write a Lee/Floyd fuckface-off.)"
Floyd could beat him with one hand tied behind his back and cut off and tied to a pole.
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That's what I was wondering... Lee's is the first POV voice we hear, and as the narrative goes on his language begins to soften and remold itself in places to adapt to Wakonda's dialect. I've also been thinking about, well, how mentally unstable Lee is portrayed as being right from the start, and how his ongoing letter to Peters (especially on the 3-doob night) is deliberately intercut with conflicting perspectives, especially Hank's (with whom Lee is obsessed).
I guess that last point is what's making me wonder the most... there are several POV changes throughout the book, but certain major characters are conspicuously absent from that sort of reading. Namely, Viv and Henry, the former of whom Lee struggles to be able to read and the latter of whom Lee seems to have little regard for (Henry, far more so than any other character in the book, is a complete cartoon).
Again, could be way off, but the more I think about it the more it makes a weird, disturbing sort of sense to me....
The Bookhouse Boys
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The Sound and the Fury (other topics)
Affliction (other topics)
The Crossing (other topics)
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I started this today and already feel like I want to take a few days off and immerse myself in it. I grew up in a coastal Oregon town that depended upon logging & fishing, so this is tailor-made for me, but the prose and imagery are captivating, so far.