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message 51:
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Claire
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Apr 06, 2014 03:45PM

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There is no guarantee of success.
So she goes on her nearly impossible quest to rescue Pritkin, and strives and fails...or does she?
After challenging the "stars" of the demon council, she loses, and then at the very end. or after, she gets one more chance.
Like a real tarot reading, the ones in the Cassie books tend to resonate on several levels at once, as we saw with the Emperor-Death combo discussed earlier.

I'm guessing it would protect C from dark fey, but would the light fey honor it, too?
Seems like that blessing might be important if/when C goes to faerie again to find her dad?




But still, though, Cassie's Pythia power comes from a God, so shouldn't it work in the heavens as well?

The Pythian power over time comes from Apollo.
Artemis was out of power and was dying. That's why she joined the Pythian Court---to get access to that power.
Cassie's innate magical abilities were inherited from her father, who was a mage, a magical human.


I wondering now why it *doesn't* work. I hope you will ask her.
Poor KC. Does she get quizzed more than most authors about these kinds of details, does anyone know?
If so, I guess it's a tribute to her world-building and her story-telling that we care so much.


She mentioned in past interviews that she used to be a history professor, and still was while writing Touch the Dark, but after that she quit so she could write full-time.

Cadbury, Dove, Godiva, or whatever makes you happy.

SOMNIUM!!! Welcome back! :D
Glad to have you back around these parts again! Did you read Masks yet?

In a war, morale can make the difference between winning and losing, bout internal morale, like that of the English people let by Churchill in World War II, and external morale?
Like the whole Spanish nation getting behind Lord Wellington and his army to defeat Napoleon's generals and army who had committed so many atrocities that thousands of men who had lost their women and children to cruel slaughter formed guerrilla bands in the mountains to fight them. The English could not have one without their assistance and support. Morale, just not theirs.
How much would having THE MERLIN leading the Silver Circle energize the war effort by enheartening the whole light magical community (and other good guys)?
It would be HUGE. We keep thinking of Protein as a scruffy, antisocial war mage. A nobody who wants to stay anonymous.
I'll bet it never occurred to him, because he doesn't think he's anything special, but he really is.
He could be the most powerful and important character in the whole story, and all the story dynamics could turn on a dime.
Someone a few months ago on this thread made an interesting case that Protein could be Fenrir. That is not out of keeping with the Merlin Effect. The two could work together....
Vesides we have seen how the Children of Loki so far sometimes been metaphors, like representing Artemis's giant spell as Ouroboros, a giant snake wrapped around the Earth to protect it.
He could be metaphorically Fenrir....and instead of dying once the world was saved he could simply disappear back into obscurity if he chose to.

The problem in my opinion is that these "hints" are either waaay too small and seemingly inconsequential to pick up, or valid conspiracy theories that fall in line with prior info or logical speculation. It's probably like the "Things they would never say" thread: to the person coming up with the hint, it is evindently clear, however, others may interpret the clues differently or even apply them to a different character! Like KC also probably has all these plot bunnies hiding in the grass, which would be obvious to us too, if we only knew what the plotline is eventually heading towards... Speculation is always fun though, and I agree that Pritkin doing something other than self-suppression and avoidance would be interesting :)
Oh and I know it's just autocorrect (I assume? xD)... but Pritkin being "Protein" is just genius!!!

I love Plot Bunnies!!! They are my new favorite thing!

As used by perplexed speculators in another forum devoted to a series that lurched to a stunningly unsatisfactory conclusion, I will offer my own WAG (Wild Asp Guess) about the two Tarot cards - the Emperor and Death. Winter said that Ms. Chance stated that Mircea, whom I adore, is the Emperor in the Major Arcana.
I think the card encompasses not only the death of Cleo and the accession of Mircea as leader of the six Senates, but also the "death" of the despotic governance of vampires by the most powerful. Mircea will implement reform of the autocratic system, analgous to adding the Bill of Rights amendments to the US Constitution and also issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. Perhaps other supernaturals/dimensions will see and emulate the actions.
After all, this is all presaged by Mircea's reaction as a young vampire in "Masks" to the abuses under the old Consul.
Thank you for reading my WAG for the UWHAT theory (Utopian Windup to HEA for All Things)!
(I'll go quietly now.)
I think the card encompasses not only the death of Cleo and the accession of Mircea as leader of the six Senates, but also the "death" of the despotic governance of vampires by the most powerful. Mircea will implement reform of the autocratic system, analgous to adding the Bill of Rights amendments to the US Constitution and also issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. Perhaps other supernaturals/dimensions will see and emulate the actions.
After all, this is all presaged by Mircea's reaction as a young vampire in "Masks" to the abuses under the old Consul.
Thank you for reading my WAG for the UWHAT theory (Utopian Windup to HEA for All Things)!
(I'll go quietly now.)

And Kathleen: I find the "things they would never say" thread quite interesting (though I myself have run out of ideas), I just thought it could be an example of how much different perspectives matter - the author's take on a hint vs. how fans perceive it, for instance. I sure wish I could get a glimpse into KC's mind...


However, Nancy said that KC mentioned that Mircea equates to the Emperor card, and I was wondering if KC said that in a Q&A or somewhere else??? Because that would be quite a hint for a future book - either as literal death or figurative change.

Tarot deals with current, recent and near future events, so I wouldn't read too much into it as a predictor of events in future books.
Then, too, there is a card that sums up each person's character and represents them (or someone like them) in readings. So Mircea is The Emperor, but the Death card might not apply to him personally, though it did represent the "death" of his obsession with punishing Drak, and maybe Drak's actual death, too.
It just occurred to me that Mircea and the Tarot are about the same age. Hunh!
Since this discussion (re)started, I've been thinking about some of the other Major cards and whom they might equate to.
In a real life pattern of acquaintanceship it would not be neat and tidy. Several people might have the same card, while some cards would not be represented. In the Cassie books, for example, I don't think anyone would have The Empress.
But there could be other Emperors: Caedmon. Anthony?

And Artemis may be The Priestess.
But Pritkin does not fit the Magician... That might be Marlowe.
Could be an interesting exercise for those with enough knowledge of tarot and enough tolerance for ambiguity and irony....
I can see Jonas as The Hierophant.
Winter in message 52 of this thread was the one who gave the info about Emperor/Mircea, and she also said Karen had said in a blog rambling that the tarot cards were possible Easter eggs to the plot line. (I haven't seen any further comments from Winter, so I don't know her source.)

@Nancy: Ah, so that's where that came from! Good to know, thanks! It just wasn't clear to me if KC implied that the Death card applied to Mircea then (I thought it was Apollo or Drac), but as Kathleen said, there could be many potential Emperor interpretations in the Cassieverse...
Someone (a group member?) asked KC about the tarot cards and here's her reply.
I once said Cassie is on the "Fool's Journey", which your friend may have misunderstood. The journey is one way the tarot has traditionally been explained. The tarot is seen as a map through life, from innocence to maturity, from ignorance to knowledge, and from vulnerablity to power. The Fool card is at numerical value 0 in the tarot, because that's where we all start in life, optimistic and clueless and pretty powerless. But then we meet people who challenge/instruct /obstruct/help us on our way, and learn things from them. In each Cassie book, there is a card or cards that shows up, describing the lesson she is learning/challenge she is facing. And as she meets those challenges, she moves further away from the Fool card where she started. So no, I don't think it describes her very well any more.
I once said Cassie is on the "Fool's Journey", which your friend may have misunderstood. The journey is one way the tarot has traditionally been explained. The tarot is seen as a map through life, from innocence to maturity, from ignorance to knowledge, and from vulnerablity to power. The Fool card is at numerical value 0 in the tarot, because that's where we all start in life, optimistic and clueless and pretty powerless. But then we meet people who challenge/instruct /obstruct/help us on our way, and learn things from them. In each Cassie book, there is a card or cards that shows up, describing the lesson she is learning/challenge she is facing. And as she meets those challenges, she moves further away from the Fool card where she started. So no, I don't think it describes her very well any more.
What part will the Irin/the Fallen/the Watchers play? The Irin told Dory that she was playing out of her league and that was true for her people as well. He also said, "Tell them to leave it to us." Dory had wondered if the Irin were really fallen angels or merely a demon race with better-than-average PR. I hope this doesn't portend a magical solution that makes everthing all better instantly. That doesn't seem to be Ms. Chance's style, so I am hoping that the Irin learn that witches, vampires, demons, mages and the fey are to be respected and not to be treated lightly.

I can see how Mircea could be the Emperor, but technically, any male authority figure could pass for it, so your Caedmon could also apply (and perhaps Apollo too?), and maybe Anthony as well, though he seems to have a bit of a Devil edge to him.
Good catch with Marlowe as the Magician and Jonas as the Hierophant, I can totally see those matches!
The Priestess for me sounds more like Agnes than Artemis (at least the Wikipedia interpretation). Artemis in my eyes is more like a mix of Justice and the Hermit (following the events of her life perhaps). And the Lovers could maybe apply to Cassie's dad?
I think Ming-de's ambitions would match the Chariot, Strengh would be Louis-Cesare and maybe Death could be Dory? Both a psychological transformation and ending of old patterns seems to apply to her, she's just been made the first dhampire Senator!
And if the Fool no longer applies to Cassie, then perhaps she's the Wheel of Fortune? She's certainly steamrolling through a lot of fateful events!
For the others, I couldn't find anything that matched very well, as the other cards seemed to relate to an event in the series rather than a character... but I had 0 experience with Tarot until like a day ago, so I'm really curious what others think!

The thought of trying to actually fit even the main characters into that system gives me a headache, perhaps because I have been a student of the tarot---and sometimes professional reader---for over 25 years.
For starters only some of the major arcana represent people/characters. Many represent situations, for example the tower, the chariot, death, wheel of fortune, etc.
The Devil does not represent a person or metaphysical entity. The Devil is purely metaphorical. He appears to hold the man and woman captive, but they look complacent, and the tethers are big, loose loops that thé y could easily lift over their heads. The Devil actually represents being a prisoner of your own device, blaming your problems on a situation you could easily get out of---if you wanted to.
The Emperor represents someone who brings order, the rule of law, source of stability for civilization, not just power. So it does fit Caedmon, but definitely not the selfish, cruel and capricious Apollo.
We have a glimpse of Anthony's underlying seriousness and sensible nature at the convocation ball in 1890, when he bends the rules for Mircea, allowing Cassie to stay but making Mircea responsible.
The Emperor is also something of a father figure. Like many strong fathers, Anthony has weakened his Senate family by imposing order (using LC) at the expense of initiative and courage.
To really understand the tarot, you need to start with the Rider Waite deck, because it is the richest in metaphysical imagery. The best book to start with is The Complete Book of Tarot, by Juliet Sharman-Burke.
Once you have memorized the meanings from that book, you need to start reading for strangers and getting feedback.
Then you can start studying other important tarot courses, such as the books of Rachel Pollack, a therapist who uses the Tarot in her work.
You can't fully understand the tarot without absorbing it and using it, and until you internalize the Rider Waite, mixing in other decks, even most of the decks that are based on it, will just confuse you.
Once you internalize the Rider Waite, though, there are some very strong decks, such as the Cosmic Tarot and the Medieval Scapini that can be very valuable, including some decks that depend on visual references to the R-W for their meaning, such as the Alice in Wonderland tarot.
The major arcana of the R-W were conceived by AE Waite, one of the towering metaphysicists of his era, and the deck was executed by the brilliant Pamela Colman-Smith, another metaphysical adept, who was the genius who first conceived the idea of creating picture cards for the minor arcana, thus allowing them to display a wealth of imagery just like the major arcana.
The tarot is a tool for accessing the wealth of knowledge to which our normally only our unconscious mind has access. Though often exploited for fortune telling, the tarot is a tool for spiritual growth, but not all decks work.
Many decks are simply pretty or clever, but the designers don't understand how tarot works.
The unconscious/subconscious mind deals in imagery. By providing pictures rich in metaphysical imagery, the RW allows the reader to lightly trance out and let whichever images catch her/his eye at once convey the relevant messages from the subconscious for the person getting the reading.
That is how the same card can carry so many different, even conflicting, meanings at different times.
As for KC 's implication that we all go through every stage of the Fool's journey, in order, that is just way oversimplified. The first few cards can represent people at different stages, but there are many more meanings, and later cards represent situations that may or may not apply to everyone on different levels.
The tarot is not simple or superficial; it is very deep. That is why it can work so well if respected as a tool for spiritual insight and why it has survived for so many centuries.
NOTE: Many decks are labeled "tarot" that are not even close. Some may be decent oracles, but don't confuse them with tarot.
For starters, if it doesn't have 78 cards, it isn't really tarot. Even if it does, it may be simply an art deck, where someone tried to force a bunch of pretty pictures into a tarot framework. Those are not *reading* decks; they are collectibles.
Many psychics say they don't need cards to do readings. True, but a deck like RW helps access much more detail and boosts accuracy. Poor decks, though, can make reading more difficult and less accurate.
So start with the RW, study the best authorities, practice reading for lots of others, and then be flexible.
I hope that helps.
By the way, even a novice can give a good reading by truly dedicating herself/himself to being of service to the person being read for, even is the message you give is not one they want to hear.
Cassie gave real readings to people who just wanted to be entertained and flattered, and they often rejected them. Happens in real life, too.


But different cards apply to the same person in different situations right now, as well as in different eras of their lives---especially the Majors. For example Mircea is not the Emperor in relation to Cleo or Caedmon.
A possible Easter egg lurks in EtN, in a thought Cassie has as (1793) Pritkin and (future) Mircea are fighting over the Codex or map. She wants to stop the fight before either one is killed. Her thinking follows:
"Mircea rarely lost his temper, but when he did, it was scary. I'd already seen it twice and really didn't want another demonstration. Especially since Pritkin couldn't die tonight. Neither of these men knew it, but one day, they would work together to make some pretty impressive history. Some of which would be mine."
Pritkin and Mircea working together? In some of Cassie's history? Zounds! I see a plot twist ahead! Will Pritkin take up his responsibilities in the demon realm? Will Mircea lead the vampires as supreme consul? Oh, or could Pritkin lead the demons AND the Silver Council? My mind boggles at the possibilities!
Is this leading to a Cassie standing alone as a super-strong Pythia? Maybe as a special concession to Pritkin's and Mircea's heroic efforts, each is given a time waiver. Mircea gets a HEA with Elena (or at least saves her from impalement) and Pritkin gets a "do-over" with his wife. Maybe she lives and gets a power boost from him, enough to be able to live in Hell as she wished. Leaving Pritkin to Cassie, of course.
What other possibilities does anyone see?
"Mircea rarely lost his temper, but when he did, it was scary. I'd already seen it twice and really didn't want another demonstration. Especially since Pritkin couldn't die tonight. Neither of these men knew it, but one day, they would work together to make some pretty impressive history. Some of which would be mine."
Pritkin and Mircea working together? In some of Cassie's history? Zounds! I see a plot twist ahead! Will Pritkin take up his responsibilities in the demon realm? Will Mircea lead the vampires as supreme consul? Oh, or could Pritkin lead the demons AND the Silver Council? My mind boggles at the possibilities!
Is this leading to a Cassie standing alone as a super-strong Pythia? Maybe as a special concession to Pritkin's and Mircea's heroic efforts, each is given a time waiver. Mircea gets a HEA with Elena (or at least saves her from impalement) and Pritkin gets a "do-over" with his wife. Maybe she lives and gets a power boost from him, enough to be able to live in Hell as she wished. Leaving Pritkin to Cassie, of course.
What other possibilities does anyone see?

I think Mardsden was pegged as a likely candidate for dying in another thread, so there could very well be some exciting changes in the Silver Circle's leadership - Pritkin is obviously 'man enough for the job', though he would need his attitude readjusted... maybe embrace his superhero status and get on with the "RAH, I'm Merlin, rally to me, rah!" routine :D
As for Mircea, I'm all for the 'he's hung up about something - have him fix it' plan, though I have no idea what and how it would work. Maybe his Pythia-interest is not about his past at all, but the future... though my gut is going with the Elena or Dory theory. Fingers crossed for a resolution / closure though.
Also (not sure who's idea it was originally) but there is a C+P+M threesome theory floating around here somewhere :D, so that could also be the 'work together' bit, lol.
And Cassie is already kinda totally badass, she just doesn't know it (or can't really play the game very well), but in the last book she seemed more determined so perhaps she'll start taking charge and get stuff done. On that note, anybody else feel frustrated with Cassie sometimes? xD She has so much potential, so I don't know how much more avoidance and shuffling around she'll need to go through before she establishes herself as the 'best Pythia ever'.
@Zoltan
Don't encourage me. I just reread the moment when Pritkin made his vow of protection to Cassie as Pythia. The last part of the oath is Easter-eggish, in that it held as long as she remained true to the ideals. It seems a difference of opinion as to her remaining true to Pythian ideals could divide Cassie and Pritkin, and lead him to disavow her.
I hope KC isn't taking that path, but the extended wait for RtW gives too much time for anxious ly mulling over possible plot hints.
Don't encourage me. I just reread the moment when Pritkin made his vow of protection to Cassie as Pythia. The last part of the oath is Easter-eggish, in that it held as long as she remained true to the ideals. It seems a difference of opinion as to her remaining true to Pythian ideals could divide Cassie and Pritkin, and lead him to disavow her.
I hope KC isn't taking that path, but the extended wait for RtW gives too much time for anxious ly mulling over possible plot hints.

As for disagreements, I don't know for what purpose Cassie would break her principles so badly that it makes Pritkin turn away from her, it would have to be pretty drastic. And she's already broken regulations several times, not in the least to save him, actually! But it would be interesting to see a philosophical difference emerge, if only because it seems so unlikely at this point that those 2 won't end up as HEA.
But for the Pythia part, I don't think Cassie will remain Pythia for long. On one hand, because it would make sense to have a "she came to us in a time of war, turned out to be a godess, restored balance, then left" kinda saviour arc (lol) and on the other, I think she already found her successor.

Marlowe said the consul was worried about how quickly Mircea was accumulating power. He has plenty of power and status of his own, with his name, Radu, Dory, and LC, along with a close association with her greatest rival Ming-de and now a pythia loyal and marked by him? At first it was as if they were happy to have a pythia tied to a member of their senate and therefore their consul, but I wonder if Snakes would be more relieved if Cassie ended her association for whatever reason with Mircea?
Also Marlowe explained to Cassie in one of the shorts when she was receiving gifts what the people sending them wanted in return and how previous pythias responded, coincidence he was also the one featured with Mircea at Tony's when Cassie caught a snippet of their conversation where Marlowe asked Mircea about all the gifts he was sending the pythias through the years and if it was on the senates behalf why so many undocumented visits, especially with one he visited before even joining their senate? Nothing or Something? Though if Marlowe or the Consul really wanted to relieve Mircea of his part in Cassie's life on a personal basis, I'm sure there are quite a few things they could tell her to at least put a strain on their bond, if not an outright shove. Unless Mircea outsmarted both of them in that aspect and in a way kept his hands clean they'd have nothing to tell her that would emotionally bother her or have her break her allegiance with him, yet keep it with the NA for the war.


Well, remember in HtM, the scene when she's trying to age the apple? Couldn't that be a hint? I mean, if she can fast forward something like that, manipulate something's time in a localized way with a time bubble instead of jumping... I mean, we saw it can work both ways (when she de-aged Jules). I know it doesn't necessarily follow but, couldn't it mean that maybe her other power works in a similar way, thus allowing her to jump in both directions? After all, both abilities have to do with time, and are closely related. I have no idea how would that work, though...

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