A Game of Thrones

[Jonathan , Reader of the fantastic]

Here's where you can discuss this month's read. Feel free to express your questions and thoughts about the book in an orderly way.

[Jenny]

I'm only 90 pages into this, but enjoying it so far--its very graphic and visual (albeit harsh). Just trying to keep all the families straight at this point! Who is who and how they are related or connected.

[Tuolivia]

I'm almost through with Game of Thrones and it has certainly grown on me. It took reading through the first couple of chapters for me to be able to really accept the world in Game of Thrones but now I can't imagine not finishing A Song of Fire and Ice.

I was unfortunate enough to read some of the reviews before I started (my, there's quite a few super-haters!) but I am lucky enough to be able to understand that fantasy and sci-fi are genres that are not meant to be clones of the present-day world. They follow their own rules.

[Jonathan , Reader of the fantastic]

I understand that but for me every created world has to have some kind of morality behind it and I didn't get that in this book...

[Tuolivia]

It certainly is missing a lot of morality,(that's one reason it took awhile for me to get into the book). I never would have been able to read it through if it weren't for the Starks and some other characters that have decency and honor.

[Jonathan , Reader of the fantastic]

Perhaps if I'd seen those characters near the start I would have been able to get further into it then. I had to give up less than halfway...

And I hate giving up on a book.

[Cleve]

We are each the hero in our own personal fairy tale.

There is morality in Game of Thrones. There is decency and there is honor. What was great about the book, for me, was that no matter how disgusting their actions (I think of Cercei in particular), each character had absolute belief in the righteousness of their actions. In life, each of us is shaped by his or her experiences; our understanding of right and wrong comes to us through the prism of perspective.

I think of Ned Stark beheading the Night's Watch deserter at the beginning of the book. This seems a horrendous act, and if it must be done, surely there is someone else to do it. But when Ned explains why he must do it, it all makes ethical sense--much more ethical sense than the way we commit executions in a modern world.

This is often a genre of absolutes, heroes of pristine virtue vying against ancient malignant evils. And while this genre is my first love, those old tropes no longer move me as they once did. Irredeemable shadowy evil is not nearly as compelling as a human need and the steps one takes to meet those needs.

[Jonathan , Reader of the fantastic]

Hmmm we all have different perspectives on these things so if you were able to see something completely different from me excellent.

I simply found it on the whole overly gratuitous I guess I would say. And I personally dislike gratuitous books. However I know that many others will like it and have and who am I to judge what they like?

[Jeff]

I think that most (or at least many) of the characters in the series have a strong sense of morality, but until you are further along, you may not have the background to fully understand their motivations and see seemingly immoral or gratuitous choices as ones that are driven by a sense of morality.

Having read all of the books available thus far, I'm hesitant to really provide any support for that statement out of fear spoilers, but one way to think of it might be that the series takes place in the aftermath of traumatic events. Most of the characters are injured in some way, physically or psychologically, and this has influenced what they value and their vision of what is good in the world. Most characters act to promote what they believe is good, but much of the conflict stems from conflicting ideas about what a good or just society looks like. From this perspective, a world that may seem initially immoral or amoral (especially from the stark perspective), is inhabited by characters that act out of distinctly moral motivations.

[Xdyj]

Just finished the book today. I don't think there is no morality behind it though e.g. characters like Catlyn, Varys etc. has shown their disapproval of the brutality of the rulers and their armies, and at least in this book several viewpoint characters like Arya, Jon Snow and Daenerys are quite decent and likable people imo.

[Jonathan , Reader of the fantastic]

Not 'no' morality. It just seemed on the whole rather empty but moreover it was more gratuitous. For instance the sexuality was just very much an 'I want someone to satisfy me' and not so much for love. But perhaps in many ways it was also the time I was trying to get into it. I'll give it another go one day. Same as Tigana.

[Xdyj]

Jonathan wrote: "Not 'no' morality. It just seemed on the whole rather empty but moreover it was more gratuitous. For instance the sexuality was just very much an 'I want someone to satisfy me' and not so much for ..."

I do agree with you on the sexuality. There is almost no trace of romantic love and most sex is without consent in this book, but so are many other fantasy books e.g. The Mists of Avalon.

[Jonathan , Reader of the fantastic]

Yeah that's the one thing I hate about a lot of fantasy and it really lowers my love of a book. It's like you're reading the author's fantasy and it un-nerves me. Is that really what they think? That's kinda my reaction.

[Xdyj]

I do agree with you that such stuff is unnerving, although imo different people have different ideas about what counts as gratuitous. On the other hand, done properly, these kind of stuff can also serve a purpose imo, like in The Mists of Avalon (usually considered a seminal work in feminist literature) to show the evilness of patriarchy.

[Jonathan , Reader of the fantastic]

Yes I do agree that. I recently read J.M Coetzee's novel disgrace which tackles a lot of those issues. He however handles the topic of abuse with sensitivity and care to prove his points. I don't feel that The Game of Thrones was written for any point like that though. It seems more a 'fun' adventure.

[Claude]

I just began, but the albinos wolf hooked me. The novel seems awesome, and I cannot wait to read more.

Claude Dancourt

[Terry]

Ok..I'm just curious, has anyone continued with the series? I'm currently on the 3rd book and I love how things are getting more complex. I can't wait to finish the series.

[Claude]

I'm into "Clash of Kings" now. I relish every chapter... Great great epic. Make me wish to write more fantasy :)

Terry, I think the series is not even complete in release, they are six books out and a seventh coming out this fall, or something like that.

Claude Dancourt

[S.]

Terry wrote: "Ok..I'm just curious, has anyone continued with the series? I'm currently on the 3rd book and I love how things are getting more complex. I can't wait to finish the series."

I've read all five and am on tenterhooks waiting for The Winds of Winter. The third book is in two parts; which one are you on? Either way, you're really in for a ride!

[[deleted user]]

Surya wrote: "I've read all five and am on tenterhooks waiting for The Winds of Winter. The third book is in two parts; which one are you on? Either way, you're really in for a ride!..."

After I read the first book, A Game of Thrones, I was eager for the second book. But it was three years before that finally came out, and by then my ardor had cooled enough to decide GRRM doesn't write fast enough. So I decided to wait for the series to be complete before I resumed reading. (Who knows, it may not end in my lifetime.)

Since then, I succumbed to watching the HBO series of the same name. And I have a feeling the TV series will finish the story before the books, and I'll have no enthusiasm for going back and reading them.

[S.]

G33z3r wrote: "Surya wrote: "I've read all five and am on tenterhooks waiting for The Winds of Winter. The third book is in two parts; which one are you on? Either way, you're really in for a ride!..."

After I r..."

Luckily or not, I started reading the first book in ASOIAF when A Dance of Dragons was released. By that time, the second season of the show was running. That way, I managed to work my way through the firs three books, then the first two seasons, and the other two books, then season three. But now, Season 4 is out in March and Winds of Winter still hasn't been announced (or has it?).

I feel your pain though. There was actually a song about it by Paul and Storm. Once, when they were performing it, GRRM and Neil Gaiman got up on stage, GRRM bashed their guitar, and Neil made them apologize. It was all staged, but still quite funny.

As for the enthusiasm, that's why we have shows and groups like these on top of fandom culture. Those should hold us for a little while longer. I hope.

[Deeptanshu]

I started this series late myself. So I just finished this series in a marathon a couple of years back. One of the best series I have read so far and the TV show is also pretty amazing.

[Hillary]

I just got an announcement from Amazon that the Season 3 DVDs are now available for pre-order; I've been intrigued by the adaptation so far and would argue some of the plotlines (e.g. parts of Danaerys'), at least in terms of pacing, are improved in the TV version.

While I really like the series, IMO A Feast for Crows is just not a good book. And Dance of Dragons is certainly not a well-structured book, though there's a definite uptick in the storytelling. Without fan & publisher pressures, would we have gotten a much later but better fourth installment? (Of course, w/out fan following & publisher contracts, GRRM might have just moved on to other things.) Of course, I'm hard put to name any series where I don't think the first book is the best. (Only Empire Strikes Back comes easily to mind.)

As far as reading the books, I'll probably wait for the series to re-read & finish. I still find it hard to think that all that needs to be accomplished to bring *most* of the current threads to a satisfying finish is going to happen in 2 volumes...

[Sharon]

I found A Song of Ice and Fire to be extremely well-written and plotted, the characters realistic and richly fleshed out, and the the world-building interesting.

That said, I didn't really like them.

I guess there is enough of the child in me that wants the characters that I like to survive their travails. (At least some of them!) There is simply too much horrible death in these books for me to find them truly entertaining. I've read all that have been published and I still can't figure out if there is a central message behind the series other than "Life is hard and then you die." Meh. I get that in real life. I don't want to hear it from epic fantasy.

Oh, and I don't watch TV much and I have never seen the miniseries. I've heard it's outstanding. Perhaps I will feel differently if I ever get the opportunity to watch it.

[[deleted user]]

Sharon wrote: "I have never seen the miniseries. I've heard it's outstanding. Perhaps I will feel differently if I ever get the opportunity to watch it...."

Just as full of hard life and harder death,... plus nudity.

Faulkner wrote, "In writing, you must kill all your darlings." Martin misheard it as, "you must kill all your Starks".

[Sharon]

G33z3r wrote: "Just a full of hard life and harder death,... plus nudity."

Hah. Well, I suppose copious nudity might compensate somewhat... *G*

[Michele]

Funny how it seems the Starks are all killed off when actually it's only 2 1/2 out of 7, 8 if you count Jon.

[Ben]

I really enjoyed the first book but by the time I got round to the second one my tastes changed. I used to love epic fantasy with multiple POV characters but I grew increasingly tired of hoping around from character to character. This is to say nothing of the quality of what GRRM wrote but rather about my tastes in reading. When I got really ill 2 years ago my tastes changed again and now reading multiple POV stories is not just something I am disinclined to do but rather something I find really difficult to do.

I do not have as much difficulty coping with multiple POV's in TV (particularly using wikipedia character lists) so I have been enjoying the TV series more but I do feel something is lost in the adaptation from something as a book to something as a TV series as no TV visuals can ever match the imagination.

[RachelvlehcaR]

I read A Game of Thrones a month ago, then A Clash of Kings last month, and I'm currently reading A Storm of Swords. I liked both A Game of Thrones and A Clash of King, so far I'm enjoying A Storm of Swords.

[Kevin]

It's a fantastic series, but the amount of time that GRRM takes between each book makes me feel like I'm in Tartarus being punished for some crime. The really bad news is that there's a real risk that the television show will catch up to the books before he can finish - even if they split each book into two television seasons.

[Caitlin]

I just started Clash of Kings and while I love the battles and the political intrigue...the way Martin writes female characters really bothers me. So many of the female characters are so emotional that they appear stupid. Arya and Daenerys are really the only consistently strong female characters (at least so far) and yet when I read Daenerys' sections I often feel like I'm intruding on Martin's personal fantasies. Don't get me wrong, I love the books so far, but the women are definitely a sore point for me and not just because of the constant rape.

[[deleted user]]

Caitlin wrote: "So many of the female characters are so emotional that they appear stupid...."

Interesting. I've only read the first book, A Game of Thrones (I may "you finish it, then I'll read it" person.) That was so long ago I no longer remember details, which have long since been overwritten by the TV series.

But I know a lot of fans think Martin writes female characters well, one of those "accepted wisdom" things. Example: this TV interview with GRRM (on the Canadian George Stroumboulopoulos show) (cued to relevant quote.)

[Jay]

I was neither pleased nor surprised by the turn of events last night. Danerys made a huge error in sending her advisor away. Now her enemies have an opening to exploit against her and they know that she can be manipulated by their actions. Sansa may prove to be stronger than anyone expected, given last night's episode.

[Caitlin]

My problem with the way Martin writes the female characters, at least in Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings, is that too many of them seem to be overly emotional and jealous. I get that some women are like that but when you have as few women in positions of power as Westeros does, it's extremely noticeable. I like Arya, although admittedly because she's a total tomboy and that's how I always was. Sansa drives me absolutely crazy because she's so embedded in her fantasy world that I struggle with believing anyone could be that naive. Not saying it's impossible, it's just...how do you know not wake up from what happens in Game of Thrones? I really hope it does get better with her. I haven't seen Brienne yet so hopefully I'll like her as much as Arya. Suppose I'll just have to see if it keeps bothering me or if they get better with time.

[Jim]

Many women were spoiled & sheltered, thus would be amazingly naive. I got the impression that the Stark girls were, but Arya didn't want to be & fought hard against it. On top of that, they were raised out in the boonies, so the game & the city life was hugely different.

[Alexander]

The Song of Fire and Ice is quickly becoming one of my favorite book series, and I am finding Martin to be a very talented author. I think most people can agree that Martin has a great deal of skill, even if they do not enjoy his writing style.

You cannot really expect woman to have equal equality, considering the setting and you certainly will not be seeing many of them marching into battle on horse back with a sword and shield in hang, at least not as far as I have read. You do have a couple female warriors, but unfortunately it might be too early on to see these women flourish. You have Arya Stark, Brienne of Tarth, and Meera Reed thus far, and you have Margaery Tyrell soon to bloom (heh, get it? Soon to bloom, and she's of House Tyrell...I thought it was funny...). Women in Game of Thrones are equally as fierce and as large of players in this setting as the men, they just work in a more subtle and less blatant manner. You even have fierce Mothers such as the Lionesss, Cersei, and the fiery and passionate Catelyn.

The Song of Fires and Ice series is not going to be uplifting or joy-filled. Even the end is sure to turn out to be bitter sweet for who ever does win the game of thrones. It's realistic, and although many of us are sheltered from the most ugly aspects of the world, this is a series completely about war. War is ugly, it is brutal, and even to this day despite women having more equality you are not going to hear about men getting raped as much as you will be hearing about women being raped. Rape is often a crime that goes hand-in-hand with war, even in this day in age. It may not be pretty, and it certainly is not right, but it is an ugly truth. The reason George Martin has so much rape in his book series is to sink the message in that rape is ugly, that good/honorable people are unfortunately the ones to usually die due to their unwillingness to break their honor and take shortcuts for their own survival. Deception and evil is difficult combat with honesty and truth alone. Especially when lies, deceit, and fear manipulate and control so well. At least that is my thoughts on the matter. I'll provide the review I did for the first book in the series bellow for any who are interested in reading more of my thoughts regarding at least the first book, without giving too much detail. I did also write a review for Clash of Kings

A Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin

My rating: 5 of 5 stars



I first was motivated to read this book series after watching the HBO TV show. I had heard of the Game of Thrones book series, as its title of a Song of Fire and Ice series, which caught my attention. Primarily because I enjoy symbolic terminology and I have a healthy appreciation of Robert Frost's poem titled Fire and Ice. In a way, Robert Frost's poem Fire and Ice, fits in fairly well with Martin's Game of Thrones series. I'll post the poem bellow for those unfamiliar with the poem, but I'll save my explanation for my Clash of King's review, the second book in the Song of Fire and Ice series.


Fire and Ice
By Robert Frost

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.


George R.R. Martin is a wonderfully talented author. With his extraordinary manner of narration, story telling, and world building you can tell this guy is going to end up known through history as a legendary author, who has raised the standard of writing for his fellow authors. The book series is bound to go down in literary study as a classic. I find it quite telling how many new books seem to be coming out with the reviews/summaries stating, "similar to Game of Thrones".

What makes Game of Thrones extraordinary is the rich, diverse, and imaginative world building. The structure of this world is highly detailed, organized, and well thought out. This book has perhaps the most diverse cast of very "human" characters with their fair share of faults, quirks, and strengths that I have ever read. Game of Thrones is unpredictable, and will keep you at the edge of your seat, unable to put down the book.

Game of Thrones is not the sort of book to treat you like you are a dumb child who needs to be spoon fed all the answers. I can't just read Game of Thrones you have to really make an effort to read this book in-depth to really appreciate it. Learning more about minor characters can paint a clearer picture of all the links and connections between primary characters and tell a fuller story.

The way this book is written, is through a narration influenced by the character the chapter is dedicated too. That does not mean that a "Tyiorn" chapter for example, will not give some insight into what's going on with "Daenerys" for example, even if the two characters are on two different continents. It helps to keep a journal of notes, predictions, and questions while reading this series. It keeps you more engaged and helps organize the numerous details, and provide you with answers which may not come to completion until further on in the series. Do not expect all your questions to be answered until the whole series is finished, and even then there is likely to be a great deal of discussion to be had.

This may not be the most exciting out of all the books, but it certainly is interesting. This first book will primarily be setting the stage for what's to come.



View all my reviews

[Caitlin]

Mika wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "My problem with the way Martin writes the female characters, at least in Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings, is that too many of them seem to be overly emotional and jealous. I get ..."

I have noticed Martin's penchant for killing people. I'm honestly not sure I've ever read a series before this where I have to be constantly worried I'm going to lose my favorite characters. It does make things a bit more exciting when you're never sure if the main characters will be alive or dead at the end.

I don't really agree that Cersei is no different from Tywin though. Tywin is consistently level-headed, cunning and in control while Cersei is consistently jealous, irrational when provoked to anger (which Tyrion seems to be quite good at) and cunning when she's not angry or jealous. I can see it being a bit of a survival reflex but it still annoys me to see it in the majority of female characters. Having finally seen Brienne I am somewhat comforted though that Martin is introducing characters to balance the more jealous and sometimes irrational women.

[Christine]

Hi everyone,
who, like me, is into George RR Martin's incredible GOT series of books.
I've met the man himself on several occasions now, since he lives right here in my hometown of Santa Fe. He's a genius! Although he struggled to make a living from writing his novels for years... and then one day he apparently hit a popular nerve and HBO took it on. What a brilliant series. I was allowed to read from my new sci-fi novel at the JEAN COCTEAU theater (which is now owned by George RR) the other evening and it was great fun. I just purchased the discs and love it even though some of my most favorite characters got killed off early on.
My favorite is the 'Mother of dragons' the plucky Khaleesi or Deanarys Targaryen...her birth name. I believe she will rise to great powers as her dragons grow and prosper.

[Jim]

I read Fevre Dream when it first came out & then again a year or so ago. I'd completely forgotten that I had since it had been 30 years or so & it was a treat because I had memories of some book with a really creepy take on steamboats & the Mississippi, but couldn't recall it any more. While the rest of the story was fairly new again, the atmosphere was something I'd never forgotten. Wow!

[Caitlin]

Mika wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "Having finally seen Brienne I am somewhat comforted though that Martin is introducing characters to balance the more jealous and sometimes irrational women. "

Don't lose hope. Ther..."

I'm too invested now to even think about giving up, regardless of which characters might currently annoy me. :P I'm a little over halfway through Clash of Kings so I have a ways to go yet.

[Phil]

I stand by the first book as a modern masterpiece of fantasy. I think it finally broke open the hegemony of Tolkein/Howard knockoffs that dominated the genre for decades. The characters and plotting were excellent. I stayed up late nights on work nights and planned my life around finishing it.

The next two books were good, but gradually decreased in quality. The POVs and tangents began to get indulgent and annoying. The magic that was so elegantly subtle in the first book became distracting and overt. More importantly, I realized that Martin was not writing the story I wanted to read.

I wanted to read about two families politicking for dominance, but Martin seems more invested in the story of Tyrion and spinning tales around secondary characters. The AFFC came out, and I chose not to read it, partly because of my sense that the series slipping away from me, and partly because of the reviews. I'm waiting to see if book #6 is better before putting any more time into this series.