Twilight
discussion
Something People Have Never Really Noticed About Edward
Danielle wrote: "Kristen wrote: "If you wake up and find your husband watching you sleep, sure, it might be strange, but your overall impression is not, 'boy this guy is a creepy stalker', it's more of , 'aww, that..."First of all, I agree, this isn't a book young girls should look to imitate. However, it's also about a vampire. Some leeway for real life comparisons should be allowed for the simple fact that it's complete unrealistic fiction. No girl is ever going to be able to put herself in Bella's place because no girl is ever going to be in love with a vampire.
And if they aren't mature enough to make that distinction, I don't think they're mature enough to be reading this book.
Second, I disagree. I don't think a person can be obsessed with someone and truly love them. They're two different things. You can be infatuated and have this person be your 'world' or whatever, but obsession is not love. Love is selfless. Obsession is selfish.
Third, why is Edward abusive? He was controlling at times, somewhat creepy at times, but I don't see anywhere that he was abusive.
Although, I agree that there is the issue of his lack of permission. However, in light of the extreme life of death situation she could have been in, I tend to overlook that. (Which is also another distinction girls need to make when patterning themselves after Bella)
He wasn't making himself at home in her room. I agree that coming in uninvited is over the line, but that's about all I would say is going too far in this case.
Again, it's an extreme vampire situation. Real world standards don't really apply the same way.
And besides she wasn't outraged over her lack of privacy when she knew about it, which tends to make me think she might not have been at the time, either.
"he would still be a stalker if what he does is uninvited by me."
I disagree. In this situation, assuming Edward is a human guy watching her though her window uninvited, sure, he's a stalker. But applied to other situations, uninvited actions are not the sign of a stalker. Guys surprise girls with gifts sometimes and unless, she's made it clear that she doesn't want his gifts and wants nothing to do with him, it's a really sweet gesture.
Bella did not make him unwelcome. Which, no isn't exactly an invitation, but still, she wasn't opposed and we have no reason to think she would have been had she known everything at the time.
Or maybe a guy sees a girl heading for some disaster. Maybe she's about to walk out in front of a car she doesn't see, but he does. If he grabs her and pulls her out of the way, even though she doesn't know him and didn't give him permission to save her, it's a good thing. Because he saved her life.
Or maybe it was something she had no idea of, and after this strange guy grabs her, she gets really mad, not knowing that he saved her life.
It's still a good thing that he did it and doesn't make him a stalker. Just a decent person.
If you want to dissect Edwards actions, you've got to factor in both the vampire aspect and the danger aspect, because they both play a part in it.
All situations are not the same and cannot be held to the same standard.
Shanna wrote: "I agree wishful thinking on his part, doesn't constitute leading on hers.She could never have picked Jake not after seeing the Emily/Sam/Leah situation knowing she could be Leah at any moment."
I don't know...knowing Bella, she probably would have picked him anyway. haha
Kristen wrote: "Shanna wrote: "I agree wishful thinking on his part, doesn't constitute leading on hers.She could never have picked Jake not after seeing the Emily/Sam/Leah situation knowing she could be Leah at ..."
yeah, and at that time they still thought the imprinting thing was really rare...
Kristen wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Kristen wrote: "If you wake up and find your husband watching you sleep, sure, it might be strange, but your overall impression is not, 'boy this guy is a creepy stalker', it's mor..."Okay so I agree with you mostly, except for that whole part about a guy you don't know saving you from a car. That is not the same as what Edward is doing. Edward watched Bella for months. Plus he didn't really do it just because of the danger. He said he enjoyed watching Bella sleep. And also was she really in danger at the time he was stalking. James comes after that. Anyway you keep saying that the rest of the Cullens wanted her dead. However that isn't a real danger because, Carlyle would have stopped them, or at least the fact that they have a pact with the wolves. And Edward knows all this information. So at the time he was stalking her she wasn't in any danger.
Book Worm wrote: "Okay first off, I just wanted to say that, yes, I do like Twilight. There I said it. I'm a bit embarrassed, but hey, I like what I like. Anyway, the thing you may not have noticed about Edward is t..."teh hehee
liking twilight is not embarassing!!! God! i don't know why people are like yeh its alright, with a sheepish look on thier face. It is great there is nothing wrong with twilight. i love twilight- oh no i can't believe i just wrote that, what will people tink of me?! puhlease
Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Kristen wrote: "If you wake up and find your husband watching you sleep, sure, it might be strange, but your overall impression is not, 'boy this guy is a creepy st..."Yes, he did tell her he enjoyed watching her sleep. Which was probably true. Don't parents enjoy watching their kids sleep? Different relationship of course, but same idea.
And it was only a half truth. He wasn't going to tell her he had to stand guard and make sure his family didn't kill her, now was he?
Later on, he constantly omits information for different reasons. But a big reason was that he didn't want to scare her unnecessarily.
I think he watched her for about a month before she knew. Maybe two, but I really don't think it was that long.
Why isn't it the same as the car?
I doubt Jasper was suddenly comfortable with Bella after a week or so of wanting her dead.
He was terrified that if the Volturi found out about her, they'd come and kill them all, since he'd seen them in action before and he knew they were breaking the rules.
So his desire to eliminate that threat didn't go away until he saw how much she meant to Edward. I'm not even convinced it went away then. Jasper was very strategic and did what needed to be done. Unpleasant as it might have been.
And Emmett wasn't convinced that she wasn't a threat either. It wouldn't have been that big a deal for either one of them to kill her. And at that point, they just thought she was some weird fascination for Edward.
No, Carlisle wouldn't have stopped them. He just would have disowned them, more or less. That's what he said in his little speech. That anyone who would kill a human in that way wasn't welcome to be part of their 'family'. But he never forced them to abide by his rules. He just forgave them when they slipped up or rebelled like Edward did.
That might have been a deterrent, sure, but I think Jasper's desire to protect Alice is stronger than his love for the rest of the Cullens.
As far as the wolves, they didn't even know about them then. If there were even wolves yet. It might have just been Sam. I'm not sure.
But either way, I don't think that would have affected their decision. They tried to keep the peace with the wolves later on, but if they saw something as a threat to them, they'd take care of the threat and worry about the wolves later. Possibly moving. Heck they'd done it a million times before.
Besides all that, Edward saw Bella nearly killed by the van and at the very least almost raped in Port Angeles. Not to mention, he's aware that there are other vampires out there. Somewhere in Midnight Sun he's amazed that she survived as long as she has. Partially because she's such a 'danger magnet', but also because of the way she smells to vampires.
So I don't think his fear for her was isolated to the threat of his family or that the threat of his family magically went away after a week.
Mikaela wrote: "liking twilight is not embarassing!!! God! i don't know why people are like yeh its alright, with a sheepish look on thier face. It is great there is nothing wrong with twilight. i love twilight- o..."lol
I thought her scent was only intensified to Edward?
It was extreme to Edward. But she still smelled really good to the rest of them too.
Kristen wrote: "Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Kristen wrote: "If you wake up and find your husband watching you sleep, sure, it might be strange, but your overall impression is not, 'boy this ..."I guess your right, but wouldn't there principle to not harm or eat humans stop them. Or wouldn't the Cullens just move away if they had a problem with Bella. I mean I guess they could kill her, but in the end they just would've moved away anyway and killing her would have brought unnesscesary attention.
As for the people who keep on saying "why are you embarrassed of Twilight?". Well, for the reasons I already mentioned and because akwardness is sort of my ice breaker. You could ask everyone who knows me. Though I'm not gonna give that info. Okay... so don't make such a big deal about it. That's just the way I talk.
Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Kristen wrote: "If you wake up and find your husband watching you sleep, sure, it might be strange, but your overall impression is..."Moving away would have removed the need to kill her...
Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Kristen wrote: "If you wake up and find your husband watching you sleep, sure, it might be strange, but your overall impression is..."That would stop Carlisle or Esme or Alice, maybe, but not necessarily the rest of them.
I mean, they've all agreed to be 'vegetarian' because they respect Carlisle and don't want to harm people unnecessarily, but that doesn't mean that killing a human once in a while is gonna make them lose sleep(lol).
Because the fact is, they've all killed people - Jasper, Emmett, Edward, Rosalie - and the only one who feels real remorse about it is Edward. The others understand that they can have a better life this way - more stability as far as actually having a place to live for more than a few days at a time - and that they all have a closer bond this way. It's more of a family than a coven because of their choice to be humane and not kill people.
Also, I think it's respect for the others that drives them in their decision. Alice, I think would be 'vegetarian' of her own accord, so Jasper tries for her. And they all respect and want to stay with Carlisle, so they try for him.
But in their minds, killing one human every few years isn't a huge tragedy, considering that they don't usually kill people. It's just an unfortunate, sometimes unavoidable thing that happens.
I think they'd probably have ways to make it look like an accident, especially considering the track record she has in the ER. I doubt they'd have to move. But they might anyway. No big deal, really.
Shanna wrote: "Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Book Worm wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Kristen wrote: "If you wake up and find your husband watching you sleep, sure, it might be strange, but your ove..."Maybe, maybe not. If she'd been blabbing about this supernatural guy who stopped a van with his bare hands, people might have thought she was crazy or whatever. But it also might have gotten the Volturi's attention. And they know who lives in that area. They also know that the average vampire wouldn't lift a finger to save a human like that.
Bella wasn't really a blabber though Edward stated several times his frustration. She barely spoke to anybody about anything. Let alone something that may have gotten her attention good or bad...If they moved when Edward went to Denali...
I think Esme might have been a vegetarian of her own accord. there's a passage where Edward states that it was Alice's prescience and seeing her future with the Cullen's that drove her decision to be "vegetarian" with out that Edward said something about "She would have become a right little savage" or something like that So on her own after the asylum she might not have been vegetarian at all but then without the Prescience she have not been in the asylum so would not have become a vampire cause James' would have just killed her ARRRGGHH It'll do your head in.
Shanna wrote: "Bella wasn't really a blabber though Edward stated several times his frustration. She barely spoke to anybody about anything. Let alone something that may have gotten her attention good or bad...I..."
Yes, but they didn't know that.
Besides, she never said anything because she told Edward she wouldn't at the hospital. If that hadn't happened or if they'd disappeared afterward, she might have started asking questions about them. Possibly talked to the wrong person.
She did that when she went to La Push and saw Jacob - started asking about them.
But, the Cullens would have no way to know what she would or wouldn't do after they left. And they would deem that too big a risk.
If they'd gone when Edward went to Denali, none of this would be an issue. The Cullens wouldn't have to kill Bella because she wouldn't know anything to tell.
But they also wouldn't have had to, the van would have done it for them.
Shanna wrote: "I think Esme might have been a vegetarian of her own accord. there's a passage where Edward states that it was Alice's prescience and seeing her future with the Cullen's that drove her decision to..."
I also think Esme might have made that decision on her own. I just didn't mention her because I think she and Carlisle both do it for their own consciences and compassion. Unlike the others.
Although, maybe she wouldn't have. Carlisle was the first one, at least ever mentioned in the books, to even imagine it was possible to not kill humans. And that was after coming as close to death as vampirically possible. (haha, totally just made that word up)
So, maybe Esme would have had the conviction to not want to hurt people, but she might not realize it was really an option.
With Alice...who knows, really? Edward was guessing.
I tend to think it's the same as with Esme - she might not have known it was an option without Carlisle. That could be what he meant by that "savage" comment.
Although, even though I do love Alice, she's not quite as unconditionally loving as Esme, so who knows? Maybe she wouldn't have had a huge problem with it either.
Good point, though. I forgot about that.
Still, the thing that keeps her to her vegetarian diet is more her own conscience than anything else, I think. Like she's motivated more than the others who are just doing it because it's a better life or because it's what their mate wants. She has that compassion for humans on her own, I think. Just maybe not to the extent that Carlisle and Esme do.
Well, if you wanna get really crazy, would Alice have been one of James' victims at all, if she hadn't had the premonitions? I mean, she did meet him in the asylum(I'm assuming), so if her family didn't think she was a witch or crazy or whatever, they wouldn't have put her in the asylum and she might not have met James or the other vampire, and therefore would have, theoretically, lived a nice long, human life.
haha, yes, my head is starting to hurt, lol Too late for all this hypothetical stuff...
I'm pretty sure James had spotted her before, and it was her committal to the asylum that put the spanner in his hunt and we know he's a stalker, and he was figuring out how to do it when her sire turned her but I could remember it wrong. Why it took him so long I don't know but I think for James it was the finesse of the hunt and all the collateral damage of getting to her by "storming the fortress" would have spoilt it for him. We saw haw he teased Bella out in to the open.
Stalker isn't the right word to describe it. The key difference is that a stalker is insane and can be driven to be violent toward his obsession. Edward would never hurt Bella. He was over-bearing and over-protective.
Shanna wrote: "I'm pretty sure James had spotted her before, and it was her committal to the asylum that put the spanner in his hunt and we know he's a stalker, and he was figuring out how to do it when her sire ..."Yeah...maybe that's what it was. Like I said, I haven't read the books for like 5 years, haha.
So, yeah, maybe she just would have been killed. Aw :(
yeah but this is a book... alot of things that come off "romantic" in books would be beyond creepy in real life so i think context is important here :)
He was a stalker and they is a limit to overprotectiveness its just that in the writers way of writting it seems edwards behaviour is justified when it isnt. I mean in reality if someone did that I would be getting a restraining order against the guy.
Book Worm wrote: "Um, I know this is going to sound wierd because I just wrote the whole, Edwards a stalker thing, but I'm team Edward. Yes, Edward is a stalker in the first book, but Bella doesn't really love Jacob..."I really wish I would "like" this comment :) Thanks for expressing how I feel about this book too!
Ha-- Edward is totally a stalker, Jacob is a little rapey (with the forced kiss) and Bella is obsessed and unhealthy. It was still a fun read quite a few years ago. But gah, it is not what one should emulate as far as romance goes. (Ya know, when You had a vamp & wolf to choose between!)
Jenn wrote: "Ha-- Edward is totally a stalker, Jacob is a little rapey (with the forced kiss) and Bella is obsessed and unhealthy. It was still a fun read quite a few years ago. But gah, it is not what one s..."
LOL well said
GeOrG!a :) wrote: "Susan wrote: "animaldisneyreaderfan4lyfe7 wrote: "That's why I love Jacob, he's warm, and he's not a stalker"I agree."
No, while Edward's stalking and watching her sleep, CAN be a bit... okay, a..."
agreement ... full agreement. Edward always had Bella's best in heart and Jacob was hurting her (excluding New Moon, and even then Edward did it for her own good...) I'm team Edward :)
Allison wrote: "GeOrG!a :) wrote: "Susan wrote: "animaldisneyreaderfan4lyfe7 wrote: "That's why I love Jacob, he's warm, and he's not a stalker"I agree."
No, while Edward's stalking and watching her sleep, ..."
I'm on Jacob's team because I prefer wolves, I don't care who treated Bella better. I know that statement was irrelevant, I just wanted to get that out.
Eilish wrote: "yeah but this is a book... alot of things that come off "romantic" in books would be beyond creepy in real life so i think context is important here :)"lol, yeah.
Kristen wrote: :No girl is ever going to be able to put herself in Bella's place because no girl is ever going to be in love with a vampire.And if they aren't mature enough to make that distinction, I don't think they're mature enough to be reading this book.
"
The above quote is so true! A lot of issues come up because people are afraid young teens will get the 'wrong' message. Well, don't let them read it if your kid can't distinguish the difference between real life vs fantasy fiction.
Also, A lot of people fail to realize that there are many books that 'send the wrong message', even 'lit' has these faults, but of course since twilight has a ton of hype this issue is highlighted to a whole other degree.
You make a very valid distinction about readers needing to understand vampire vs human. I agree because as I was reading Twilight I let those issues slide more than usual because he has 'animalistic' tendencies which are symptoms of being a vampire. So yes, part of that may include creepy behavior or acting differently than a human would, etc. When reading a book sometimes we need to step back for a second and think about what we're reading. Not that Edward isn't creepy at times, but it makes more sense when we look at it through a different lens.
Natalie wrote: "Kristen wrote: :No girl is ever going to be able to put herself in Bella's place because no girl is ever going to be in love with a vampire.And if they aren't mature enough to make that distinctio..."
That's exactly what I think! Why are people so afraid to say that perhaps young girls who are so impressionable should *gasp* have some restrictions?
When I have kids, I probably won't let them read this one, or books like it until around 15 or 16, at least.
I don't blame the book for sending the wrong message. I blame the parents for not monitoring their kids.
And I totally agree. People are way more critical of Twilight because of all the hype. There are worse books for young girls to be reading. Forever by Judy Blume, for example.
"book lover wrote: "*shrugs* I love Edward , he's awesome. He wasnt being a stalker more of overprotective but everyone has their opinions"
He. Broke. Into. Her. House. And. Watched. Her. Sleep. That, my seriously confused friend, is a stalker.
He. Broke. Into. Her. House. And. Watched. Her. Sleep. That, my seriously confused friend, is a stalker.
Kristen wrote: "There are worse books for young girls to be reading..."Or House of Night: they talk about oral sex in the first book....and they make it a 'cool' thing to have sex in the following books. Twilight is the least of our concerns lol
Ya he is a bit of an odd ball...haha.
well, I don't know...he probably had some stalker-ish leanings, with the breaking in and all that. BUT I think he also did that so that he would stay desensitized to her scent- the more time he spent away from her, the more likely he was to kill her...
Natalie wrote: "Kristen wrote: "There are worse books for young girls to be reading..."Or House of Night: they talk about oral sex in the first book....and they make it a 'cool' thing to have sex in the followin..."
Yeah, I think I got about 5 pages into that one and put it away, disgusted by all the language and sex references. At least Twilight is fairly wholesome in that respect.
Kirby wrote: "well, I don't know...he probably had some stalker-ish leanings, with the breaking in and all that. BUT I think he also did that so that he would stay desensitized to her scent- the more time he sp..."You're probably right. He had to counter his vampire-instincts by forcing himself to be close to her.
makes no sense when i re-read it, but you know what I mean. Goes along with the nonhuman aspect/argument as to why hes super creepy lol
Natalie wrote: "Kirby wrote: "well, I don't know...he probably had some stalker-ish leanings, with the breaking in and all that. BUT I think he also did that so that he would stay desensitized to her scent- the m..."Like he had to break himself of her?...
wow. I actually never thought of it that way. I mean, I never thought it as creepy or stalkerish, and I kind of got worried because being followed by a guy day and night, how is that not creeping me out? Now I have a reason, lol.
Book Worm wrote: "Okay first off, I just wanted to say that, yes, I do like Twilight. There I said it. I'm a bit embarrassed, but hey, I like what I like. Anyway, the thing you may not have noticed about Edward is t..."You're just noticing this? People like me (who hate the book) have been bitching about it for years! HA HA HA.
Veronica wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Kirby wrote: "well, I don't know...he probably had some stalker-ish leanings, with the breaking in and all that. BUT I think he also did that so that he would stay desensitized to ..."No I think he watched her sleep to test himself to make sure he can be around her and kind of train himself to build up a resistance against his vampire thirst urges.
Kristen wrote: "haha, actually, I've heard the whole Edward is a stalker, thing, many times.However, I disagree.
Sure, on the surface, Edward's actions are very creepy and stalkerish, for your average Joe - or ..."
I just thought he was overprotective, not really controlling (Edward)
Kristen wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Kristen wrote: :No girl is ever going to be able to put herself in Bella's place because no girl is ever going to be in love with a vampire.And if they aren't mature enough to make..."
I think Forever at least tried to realistically portray the consequences of sex. It wasn't about making sex cool. Or at least that's how I remember it, I read it about when I was 14 and don't remember an urge to rush out and have sex.
Curlygirly wrote: "Veronica wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Kirby wrote: "well, I don't know...he probably had some stalker-ish leanings, with the breaking in and all that. BUT I think he also did that so that he would stay..."Oh, yeah, good point. He was testing himself too.
Alex wrote: "Kristen wrote: "haha, actually, I've heard the whole Edward is a stalker, thing, many times.However, I disagree.
Sure, on the surface, Edward's actions are very creepy and stalkerish, for your a..."
Well, he did make it impossible for her to go to La Push by disabling her car and then having Alice babysit her. That's pretty controlling.
But he also stopped later.
Shanna wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Kristen wrote: :No girl is ever going to be able to put herself in Bella's place because no girl is ever going to be in love with a vampire.And if they aren't matur..."
Oh no. Forever was horrible. This girl is trying to decide she's ready for sex and then she comes to the conclusion she is, even though her actions and thinking show she clearly wasn't.
Her parents were morons who gave her no guidance whatsoever. They got mad about the fact that she was spending too much time with her boyfriend because they didn't want her getting too serious, but then didn't seem to care that she was sleeping with him.
Which - Hello! - how much more serious can you get??
The boyfriend always says he won't touch her or push or anything and then in warp speed he's breaking his word.
She swears she's in love with him and could never bear to be apart from him, but then the minute she is separated, promptly falls "in love" with someone else and dumps the guy she was so "in love" with like a week ago. It was pathetic.
It presents, like, none of the possible bad effects or consequences. It barely skims over pregnancy and stds, but they turn out to be no big deal. And it doesn't even hit on the emotional complications that can arise.
And lets not forget all the plugs for Planned Parenthood throughout.
I wanted to burn that stupid book when I was done with it. It sets a horrible example for young girls about sex. And quite frankly, I was mad I wasted money and time on it.
And aside from all that, it was very poorly written and had, like, no story at all.
Kristen wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Kristen wrote: :No girl is ever going to be able to put herself in Bella's place because no girl is ever going to be in love with a vampire.And if th..."
Clearly I'm going to have to go read it again, but I clearly remember thinking of it as a cautionary tale, rather than one that glorifies sex but that could have been my interpretation at the time, I had a boyfriend whom I couldn't trust as far as I could kick him, and I knew it, perhaps that coloured how I saw the book.
I noticed. It's actually scary that a 100 and something year old murderer stalking a minor, sneaking into her house to watch her sleep, having major mood swings, and invading the minds of everyone she talks to, plus being extremely possessive and overprotective all whilst trying to decide if he wants to EAT her, has become a major best seller. I mean, people are encouraging or approving of that behaviour? Terrifying.
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Twilight and Philosophy: Vampires, Vegetarians, and the Pursuit of Immortality (other topics)
Twilight and Philosophy: Vampires, Vegetarians, and the Pursuit of Immortality (other topics)
Twilight (other topics)
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Twilight and Philosophy: Vampires, Vegetarians, and the Pursuit of Immortality (other topics)Twilight and Philosophy: Vampires, Vegetarians, and the Pursuit of Immortality (other topics)
Twilight and Philosophy: Vampires, Vegetarians, and the Pursuit of Immortality (other topics)
Twilight (other topics)
Huh, I never thought about that! I always wondered why Bella and Jacob never discussed the fact that no matter how much Jake loved her, she was not his imprint.