Pre-Tolkien Fantasy discussion
Introduce Yourself - And What's This Group All About?
Dulac3 wrote: "C'mon...have any of you read more than one Carter novel?! (For anything other than ironic reasons that is.)"What Richard said. I think we're the same age, too.
When it comes to the Fantasy Masterworks series, I think the more problematic and controversial entries are the more recent ones. Those that have been around at least thirty or forty years you get a pretty good idea whether they are widely regarded as classics or not. But some of the Masterworks entries are from the 80's or even early 90's and that's probably too soon to judge (particularly for Fantasy) whether it's a true classic or not. Such choices will inevitably leave some people wondering why they are in the list, even if they personally like them.
Also, I don't think the availability of publication rights explains the poor choices in the series so much as it does the omissions. And my personal opinion is that the Masterworks series (both fantasy and SF) are marred more by what they left out than what the put in.
DJ wrote: "All lies! Everyone knows that Tolkien invented fantasy in Gary Gygax's basement because Cellars and Silverfish V 3.5 wasn't selling for shit.I'm DJ, by the way. Nice to meet you all."
LOL... I thought you were going to say Gygax kept Tolkien in the trunk of his care while he drove around selling his early "Pamplet-manuals."
Welcome DJ ...(yer fuhnny!)
Simon, I totally agree with what you said here:
"Also, I don't think the availability of publication rights explains the poor choices in the series so much as it does the omissions. And my personal opinion is that the Masterworks series (both fantasy and SF) are marred more by what they left out than what the put in. "
"Also, I don't think the availability of publication rights explains the poor choices in the series so much as it does the omissions. And my personal opinion is that the Masterworks series (both fantasy and SF) are marred more by what they left out than what the put in. "
I've often wondered who actually had more influence on fantasy today - Tolkien or Gygax.
D_Davis wrote: "I've often wondered who actually had more influence on fantasy today - Tolkien or Gygax."I think Tolkien lit the torch but Gygax did quite a bit to keep it burning.
Mod
I think that this is a really fascinating thought to ponder actually. I'd never really considered that and its not generally mentioned .. but as well as D&D itself it would be foolish to underrate the popularity and influence of the Dragonlance novels.
Please don't bar me from the group, but I just had to look up google Gygax because I had no idea who he was.
Stephen wrote: "Please don't bar me from the group, but I just had to look up google Gygax because I had no idea who he was."Now that you know, will you tell me?
Mod
Only, not really.
"Who's Gygax?" Wow...I'm shocked Stephen! Shocked, I say!
Mod
...and also, I'm just really pleased that there's a lot of interest in this. I kinda suspected that there'd be a few people lurking out there who were into this kind of thing but maybe not so many.
Alex wrote: "He's post-Tolkien. You're both forgiven.Only, not really."
I only know Gygax name because he used Jack Vance Dying Earth magic system for D&D. I read that somewhere. Of course you know D&D fame. Its like some creations are more famous than the creator. Dracula,Tarzan for example are more famous,mainstream than Stoker,ERB.
Tolkien passed the torch to Gygax, and it's fair to argue that without Tolkien there would have been no Gygax, but Gygax took that torch and kindled it into a bonfire with the heat of a thousand suns.
And I don't want to discount Vance's influence, even though I do not like what I've read of Dying Earth at all.
And I don't want to discount Vance's influence, even though I do not like what I've read of Dying Earth at all.
I can say that personally, in my life, D&D has had way more of an influence than LOTR.
D_Davis wrote: "Tolkien passed the torch to Gygax, and it's fair to argue that without Tolkien there would have been no Gygax, but Gygax took that torch and kindled it into a bonfire with the heat of a thousand su..."Jack Vance influence can be seen in Songs of Dying Earth and how many modern fantasy greats was influenced by him. Influencing Gene Wolfe,GRRM,Tanith Lee's of fantasy is not less than influencing Robert Jordans, Goodkinds of fantasy ;)
Read more fantasy,Science Fantasy by Jack Vance. Im telling you its near impossible liking literary strong fantasy author like Lord Dunsany and not liking Vance too.
Ah, but do people play D&D because they like fantasy, or read fantasy because they like D&D? I would have thought it was more the former than the latter...but I could be wrong.
Simon wrote: "Ah, but do people play D&D because they like fantasy, or read fantasy because they like D&D? I would have thought it was more the former than the latter...but I could be wrong."It don't think it's that linear, more of a cycle. I liked fantasy before I played D&D but I read a lot more of it once I started.
I guess Joel Rosenberg's series of books is about the most time I've ever spent with D&D. I've never played it, although had friends who did. It took up way too much time, like so many of the video games I see today. That's way too much time away from other things that I either have to or want to do. I remember liking the first Tomb Raider game, but I couldn't get through the 3d one, even with the cheat instructions because I didn't have the time. It took hours to figure out anything. Where do people find that kind of time?
Hugh The Curmudgeon wrote: "...where The author changed Merlin's Name from Myrddan to Merlin because Myrddan in print looked too much like the french word for..."What? What? Myrddin so upset by the death of Gwenddolou fab Ceido at the Battle of Arfderydd (in the late 500's CE) that he became the Wild Man of the Celyddon Forest in Scotland is my hero! I almost moved to Caer Myrddin just because of its name ;-) I had no idea there was so specious a reason for the spelling change of his name. I need to know this mysterious French word!
I'm Kernos aka Bill and have had a longtime interest in the roots of modern Fantasy going back to the ancient's ideas about the big bang (and modern myths as well). I'm fairly well read in fantasy from Tolkien on and Tolkien back. Some of my favorites are old ones such as that depicted on the group picture.
I am curious about how this group will define Fantasy. EG, I think John Carter of Mars is more like fantasy than SF and also that Lovecraft and Poe should be considered among the roots of modern Fantasy.
I will definitely read more Vance - that's a promise.
D_Davis: give Vance's "Lyonesse" series a try. It's really great...my favourite Vance. I didn't much like the Cugel stories myself and found the first volume of _The Dying Earth_ to be enjoyable, but more important in it's influence than by itself, IMHO of course!
Kernos wrote: "I am curious about how this group will define Fantasy. EG, I think John Carter of Mars is more like fantasy than SF and also that Lovecraft and Poe should be considered among the roots of modern Fantasy."
Personally, I'd prefer it if we stayed far, far, far away from arguing about genre semantics, and whether or not this or that belongs to this or that genre or sub-genre.
I think as we move further away from contemporary genre-lit, we will also find that there is not much for splitting hairs.
Personally, I'd prefer it if we stayed far, far, far away from arguing about genre semantics, and whether or not this or that belongs to this or that genre or sub-genre.
I think as we move further away from contemporary genre-lit, we will also find that there is not much for splitting hairs.
Mod
Just to be another voice suggesting that you definitely do give Vance another shot. I didn't like the Cugel/Dying Earth books much when I read them either, but Lyonesse is something different completely and it's a trilogy with so many different weird ideas, influences and faces that I couldn't even begin to describe it. I don't know if it's your style or not but I think it's an absolutely essential read for anyone who likes fantasy. One of my very favourites.
D_Davis wrote: "Personally, I'd prefer it if we stayed far, far, far away from arguing about genre semantics, and whether or not this or that belongs to this or that genre or sub-genre...."I agree. I can never get all those sub-genres right & don't really care. If I like it, all is good.
Jim wrote: "D_Davis wrote: "Personally, I'd prefer it if we stayed far, far, far away from arguing about genre semantics, and whether or not this or that belongs to this or that genre or sub-genre...."I agre..."
Couldn't agree more.
Dulac3 wrote: ""Who's Gygax?" Wow...I'm shocked Stephen! Shocked, I say!"I know and I'm sorry. I am willing to accept whatever shame penance the group feels I have earned due to my glaring oversight.
i'm going to jump in and just repeat myself again by saying how much i love Jack Vance. LOVE HIM. one of my favorite authors. if Dying Earth didn't do it for you, you may appreciate its sequels, which have very strong stylistic differences. many people prefer the sequels to the original (although not me, i think the first is the best).they are not fantasy, but i also love his Demon Prince and Planet of Adventure series. i could talk about Vance all day.
also, i third or fourth a disinterest in getting all subgenre-specific.
Hey everyone, my name is Braden. I would describe myself as "a vigorous young go-getter with upper management written all over me". I enjoy good food and drink, long walks on the beach, and movies starring Matthew McCaugheneunyhkrey.To be honest I don't have much experience with fantasy at all. As a pre-teen I was a big fan of the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms series' of books, and had various other favorites in the fantasy genre - "The Phantom Tollbooth", the "Wrinkle in Time" series, and various novels by Anne McCaffrey.
However, once high school hit me like a ton of angst and marijuana-clouded confusion, my reading took a nosedive. I went from being the top reader in my grade to someone who could barely finish a 50 page story for English class.
It wasn't until the first year of college that I got back into reading with my discovery of H.P. Lovecraft and the various horror and weird fiction authors descended from his "school" of writing.
Still, I have not re-entered the world of fantasy (pre or post Tolkien), and so I'm very much looking forward to the books we have in store here.
Just for discussion's sake (and because my OCD side really likes making pointless lists) here are some of my favorite books, spanning all genres:
"'Salem's Lot" - Stephen King
"Great Expectations" - Charles Dickens
"Atonement" - Ian McEwan
"Persuasion" - Jane Austen
"Crime and Punishment" - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
"Ender's Game" - Orson Scott Card
"The Great Gatsby" - F. Scott Fitzgerald
"The Crying of Lot 49" - Thomas Pynchon
And tons of stuff I can't think of on the spot.
Welcome, Braden. I have much love for Dostoyevsky.
Stephen wrote: "Please don't bar me from the group, but I just had to look up google Gygax because I had no idea who he was."I did too :-) D&D was not a biggie in my world.
I'm glad we're not concerned with genre. On another group a thread started about one's 1st [epic] fantasy read. Thinking way, way back I realized my 1st was Charlotte's Web which I was given shortly after it was 1st published.
Welcome Braden, i was fantasy newbie few years ago. Its a nice place to be you can discover alot of great writing, awesome stories.
Hi folks,My name's Chas. Was a big reader as a youngster, sort of fell out of it in High School and found my way back in college and after. I got back into genre fiction a few years ago, and haven't looked back since. I'm generally ignorant about modern Fantasy, and am not that into the Tolkien school. I really love Moorcock, Leiber, Howard and that bunch though. I'm a writer, as I imagine most of you are as well!
Chas wrote: "Hi folks,My name's Chas. Was a big reader as a youngster, sort of fell out of it in High School and found my way back in college and after. I got back into genre fiction a few years ago, and have..."
You are S&S, weird fantasy fan too welcome to this group Chas :)
I like Moorcock and Howard is my top 3-5 authors. Leiber is a horrible miss by me. Havent read his S&S series yet fully.
Hey everyone! My name's Jason and I joined just recently. I haven't had much time to look around, but the idea the group is based on sounds great! I was first exposed to Tolkien when I was about 5 years old...wait...that didn't sound good. Let me rephrase that: I was about 5 years old when I first saw the old 70s cartoon versions of The Hobbit and Return of the King (cried like a wee babe at the end and was ridiculed by my cousin...she was a 'mean streets' tough 7 year old). I read the books in my early teens and have been in love ever since. I'd like to learn more about early fantasy/myth. Gotta read me some Joseph Campbell one of these days.
Hi Jason. Speaking of Joseph Campbell, does anyone know if he wrote or spoke much about LOTR?
I ran across this item in my Internet wanderings, and it seemed likely to interest at least a few of the group's members:"Neil Gaiman has started his own audiobook line called Neil Gaiman Presents. Using Audible’s platform, he’s working with authors and narrators to produce audiobooks of some of his favorite novels that have not yet been produced in audio. I listened to two of his first offerings this week: Light by M. John Harrison and Pavane by Keith Roberts. Light was too dark (that sounds weird) but I enjoyed Pavane. I also read the graphic novel Agatha Awakens, which is the first hardback omnibus of the first three volumes of Phil & Kaja Foglio’s GIRL GENIUS comic. It is absolutely gorgeous and the best way to experience this comic."
Richard wrote: "I ran across this item in my Internet wanderings, and it seemed likely to interest at least a few of the group's members:"Neil Gaiman has started his own audiobook line called Neil Gaiman Present..."
Is Neil doing any of the narration? I've enjoyed the audiobook versions of his books I've read in which he's the narrator (that was oddly worded, sorry). He does a good job!
From what I know, Jason, Neil is actually working with the authors to make the best possible audiobook. If they want to narrate it, he arranges that, or he helps them find a narrator.
Nikki wrote: "From what I know, Jason, Neil is actually working with the authors to make the best possible audiobook. If they want to narrate it, he arranges that, or he helps them find a narrator."Sounds like a cool project he's got going there. I'm all for authors reading from their work, because they know how it's supposed to sound...but on the other hand, writers are not always very good readers. I'd rather listen to a professional than a bumbling author.
Are we still planning to do a read of The Worm Ouroboros for March????? I am so anxious to read this!
Mod
Well, hi, I'm Jocelyn. As for my favorites, I'm not sure if it's limited to high fantasy, or if YA doesn't count, but I'll assume that the range is not only limited to non-YA or high fantasy.
My favorite post-Tolkien fantasies would be...
Narnia
A Game of Thrones (only the first one, haven't read the others)
Harry Potter
Percy Jackson
The False Prince
Graceling
Northern Lights/The Golden Compass (I was okay with the second of His Dark Materials, I despised the third one)
Ranger's Apprentice
The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel
post-Tolkien books I'm preparing to read: The Wheel of Time, the Sword of Truth, the rest of the ASOIAF, Gormenghast, The Way of Kings, Mistborn.
pre-Tolkien
Haven't really touched upon fantasy before Tolkien. I've read bits and pieces of Beowulf, a little bit of the Iliad and the Odyssey. I have lots left to read besides finishing up on those--Paradise Lost, the Aeneid, etc.
My favorite post-Tolkien fantasies would be...
Narnia
A Game of Thrones (only the first one, haven't read the others)
Harry Potter
Percy Jackson
The False Prince
Graceling
Northern Lights/The Golden Compass (I was okay with the second of His Dark Materials, I despised the third one)
Ranger's Apprentice
The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel
post-Tolkien books I'm preparing to read: The Wheel of Time, the Sword of Truth, the rest of the ASOIAF, Gormenghast, The Way of Kings, Mistborn.
pre-Tolkien
Haven't really touched upon fantasy before Tolkien. I've read bits and pieces of Beowulf, a little bit of the Iliad and the Odyssey. I have lots left to read besides finishing up on those--Paradise Lost, the Aeneid, etc.
Welcome Jocelyn.Interesting that you list "Northern Lights" as among your favourite fantasy books and yet despise the third part. Is that for religious reasons?
I take it by joining this group you are hoping to explore the fantasy classics?
Simon wrote: "Welcome Jocelyn.
Interesting that you list "Northern Lights" as among your favourite fantasy books and yet despise the third part. Is that for religious reasons?
I take it by joining this group y..."
Whoops! Sorry it took me so long to respond...my notifications are really wacky right now.
No, I don't dislike the last part of the trilogy for religions reasons. I dislike it because I felt that it was dull, stagnant, and disappointing. I thought the plot was meandering and pointless, that there was an awful lot of filler, and that Lyra had turned from one of my favorite fictional characters into a simpering woe-is-me-waaaaaaaah weakling who became dependent on her boyfriend. I thought the pacing was uneven, dragging unnecessarily in some parts and picking up out of the blue in others, as well as a lot of underdeveloped characters that would have contributed hugely to the story if Pullman had put in more effort to expand more on them, and put less emphasis on the more irrelevant parts of the book.
Yes, I joined this group to explore fantasy classics. I've taken an interest in fantasy only two years ago, and I'm not too widely read with it. I love the genre, but I'm inexperienced, and I want more. :)
Interesting that you list "Northern Lights" as among your favourite fantasy books and yet despise the third part. Is that for religious reasons?
I take it by joining this group y..."
Whoops! Sorry it took me so long to respond...my notifications are really wacky right now.
No, I don't dislike the last part of the trilogy for religions reasons. I dislike it because I felt that it was dull, stagnant, and disappointing. I thought the plot was meandering and pointless, that there was an awful lot of filler, and that Lyra had turned from one of my favorite fictional characters into a simpering woe-is-me-waaaaaaaah weakling who became dependent on her boyfriend. I thought the pacing was uneven, dragging unnecessarily in some parts and picking up out of the blue in others, as well as a lot of underdeveloped characters that would have contributed hugely to the story if Pullman had put in more effort to expand more on them, and put less emphasis on the more irrelevant parts of the book.
Yes, I joined this group to explore fantasy classics. I've taken an interest in fantasy only two years ago, and I'm not too widely read with it. I love the genre, but I'm inexperienced, and I want more. :)
Pre-Tolkien Fantasy
Books mentioned in this topic
The Worm Ouroboros (other topics)Charlotte’s Web (other topics)
Found Wanting (other topics)
Kingdoms of Sorcery: An Anthology of Adult Fantasy (other topics)
Under the Green Star (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Joel Rosenberg (other topics)Roger Zelazny (other topics)
Fritz Leiber (other topics)
William Hope Hodgson (other topics)
Geoff Ryman (other topics)
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- i've seen Lyonese mentioned a couple times. awesome! love that author, love that series.