A Song of Ice and Fire
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Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice & Fire?
message 201:
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Will
(new)
Jun 03, 2016 10:55PM
Also, a classic trope is the unassuming character that ends up having a triumphant moment. I would be willing to bet a lot of your favorite books have this type of character.
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Will wrote: "Also, a classic trope is the unassuming character that ends up having a triumphant moment. I would be willing to bet a lot of your favorite books have this type of character."I was totally okay with Hodor dying. He didn't need to be special. If anything the current way it plays out... fits what you are describing.
I actually liked the theories that he screwed up horribly warging and that is why he is the way he is/was (depending on book/show). That would have made him more tragic and far more interesting to me.
Also, Martin's entire series is nothing but tropes. There is nothing original here. Melanie Rawn was killing main characters ages ago. There have been dozens of books on political intrigue between kingdoms in dozens of time periods. Chosen ones. Dragons. Zombies. Ghosts. Magic. Lots of sex and rape. He basically took a bunch of random overused crap, tossed it in a pot and stirred.
And guess what? I don't mind. Complaining about tropes is just pedantic. They are found in all books. Just because something is cliche doesn't mean it is bad.
Shawn wrote: "Complaining about tropes is just pedantic. They are found in all books. Just because something is cliche doesn't mean it is bad."Indeed. I was not complaining. They are necessary and unavoidable.
Yeah, he warged into present Hodor while Bran was inside of a vision of the past, which caused a link between past Hodor and future Hodor while past Hodor went into seizures.
It creates sort of a time paradox, There are lots of theories for how that might be explained, but I think Martin has written the same sort of time paradox in past books, and I don't think it was ever explained in those.
Will wrote: "I don't know how you could call it vaporware if you truly look at it from Martin's perspective. He's been building his world since '91, I think he deserves to delve into his world and take as long ..."Ironic, how the argument on why the WoT series took so long is because of world building, right? Yet many(not you) argue that's the downfall of Asoiaf
Except that WoT didn't take so long. Not even slightly. Jordan was putting out new books every 2ish years on average. The WoT series has 14 books.. that took just under 23 years to write. And that includes the original author dying and a new author picking it up and finishing it. That gap was the longest period between books at ~4 years.In 20+ years Martin on the other hand has written a grand total of 5 books for his series.
You can't even compare length. Because they are basically equal in size per book. Nor can you use the excuse that Martin does more things. Jordan was an editor, and he also wrote other series as well.
Martin just sucks at writing and is incredibly slow at it.. especially when he is distracted. After book 3 he hasn't been world building. He has just been lost in his own story and doesn't know how to wrap it up to finish it.
Shawn wrote: "Except that WoT didn't take so long. Not even slightly. Jordan was putting out new books every 2ish years on average. The WoT series has 14 books.. that took just under 23 years to write. And that ..."lol Martin sucks at writing?!?!?!?! Even if you don't appreciate his work this statement is moronic
He has said it about himelf. Especially when he is not home. So i guess according to you he is moronic too. I am okay with that.
Jesus, Shawn, and you think I'm contrarian? So when you said "Martin sucks at writing" what you really meant to say is "Martin sucks at writing at a pace that pleases myself?"And when D'Mitri said WoT took a long time, I think he is referring to the fact that there are 14 books in the series, which was a lot to slog through and was originally intended to be just 6 books.
It isnt contrarian to read what he wrote. You make large assumptions.When i said i think Martin sucks it refers back to all the things mentioned in this thread.
When Martin says he sucks at writing he was referring to his inability to write anywhere but home and his inability to stay there to get his job done. (Which are also part of why i think he sucks )
As for dmitri you are reading into things and making assumptions. 'Took so long' to me sounds nothing at all like 'wrote too many books' especially in context of people complaining about how long it is taking martin and not how many books he has written.
So, when Mark questioned you saying he sucks at writing, why did you reply that Martin says it about himself when you knew Martin didn't mean it in the same sense that you meant it? Why the deception?And if you follow what D'Mitri replied to one of my comments, it absolutely makes sense he meant it that way. Do you really think he doesn't know that Martin is taking longer in between books than Jordan did? In fact, the comment he replied to I was stating that very thing, that I believe Martin deserves to take all the time he needs to write his books.
And there have been many complaints leveled at Martin for extending the story and adding more and more side characters that might seem unimportant and not wrapping up the story, etc. This is what D'Mitri and I were talking about.
There isnt one. He knows he sucks. He has admitted it. He thinks its for different reasons but he still admits it.I think he sucks for those reasons and others.
Deception indeed. You are ridiculous.
And you are reading into his comment so much to fit what you want it to say. Good luck with that. His comment was extremely poorly worded if he meant all that.
And it still wouldnt matter. Those complaints you are talking about usually come up in regards to how long he is taking to write. If he had shorter gaps between books there would be more forgiveness for extra pointless details or random characters added to just die. It is when he takes ages and produces nothing but bloated garbage that people get unhappy
Hell if anything some of the extra crap in WoT got old too... but you know what? He wrote a shit ton faster so you knew the next one wasnt 6+ years away. That is the biggest difference.
Marc wrote: "Emma wrote: "May I ask what makes ASOIAF series go downhill after book 3? (Bare in mind I'm only in book 3 at the moment)"absolutely nothing! Feast is probably my 2nd favorite book of the whole s..."
I'm sorry, but a 32 page children's book about a train to the North Pole that I remember reading with my classmates is the most violent book ever? I won't deny it but that's hard to believe
Shawn wrote: "As for dmitri you are reading into things and making assumptions. 'Took so long' to me sounds nothing at all like 'wrote too many books' especially in context of people complaining about how long it is taking martin a"Will is right, I mean there are so many books that are(according to others) filled with useless chapters that don't develop the characters nor the story but buildup the world. The amount of books could've been smaller if they didn't do this.
But the same could be said about Asoiaf, but its world building. Showing what's going on in Dorne, the iron born too. We get introduced to new places in essos we never got before. Introducing a new player to game with the supposed Aegon.
And it isn't just world building but new people to root for. Like I said before, you can really root for anyone. I have seen people rooting for the Starks, Daenerys, Stannis, the Lannisters, the fucking boltons, the iron born, etc. Hell, the main threat in the this whole thing, the Others, have theorized to be the good guys. Have you ever been able to think like that where you thought the big bad is actually a good guy? Have you ever thought Sauron might be trying to do good?
And I will say that 'You know nothing, Dmitri'.Read WoT and then you can comment on it. Claiming anything about it, based upon what others say, is just flat out ignorant.
I have just recently reread WoT and every chapter moves people forward, and moves the story forward as a whole. Jordan literally does everything you are claiming is so great in GoT....
You a hypocrite. You claim, without reading WoT, that jordan does too much, yet when Martin does it and it is clearly filler garbage - far more so than anything in WoT, that it is okay, because it is world building. Ridiculous.
And no. You cant root for anyone. You would have to be fucked in the head to root for most of the characters in martins books. Yes, some have back stories that explain why they do what they do, but that still doesnt mean they are anything other than bad guys. Jamie is a sick fuck who bangs his sister and throws children off towers. I dont give a fuck what his back story is at that point. You dont get to redeem yourself except through death. Same goes for 90% of the characters.
Martin tries to muddy the water with his characters so that you think some might not be -as- bad as they clearly are intended to be but they are still the bad guys.
Jordan fills in info on the chosen. He gives us details of why they turned and that things arent always black and white. It is a gross oversimplification to claim that jordan and the WoT is just good vs evil.
And duh. Everyone thinks that they are the good guy. Martin does that well. But that alone does not make his books immune to criticism or better than all other books. It also doesnt mean that if you get the bad guys side of the story that they arent still the bad guy.
I swear you must not have read much if you think martin is the only author that does this...
WoT is so corny in its black and white heroes and villains it's a laugh you would argue otherwise. Did you ever feel like the dark one (it's even in the name) or his minions were going to ever do something good at any point?
They did do good things. At one point they were as good as good can be. It was their fall that was tragic and the reasonings behind their falls. Hell Verin alone is a better character than anyone in GoT. Moridin plays a pretty deep game that definitely muddies the water.And martin hasnt even revealed his ultimate bad guy yet so guess we will have to see if you eat your own words. Because so far from what i have been reading about the show... it looks like it parallels WoT in a lot of ways with its own dark one.
Well sure, the Shai'tin of the bible was once an angel too. However, I do not recall anywhere in the series that Shai'tin was once good or is capable of good and at no point in the series were the evil guys' alignment in question. Also, I don't see any sort of parallel to a dark one in GoT. Who would it be? Not the Night King. He was once a Commander of the Night's Watch when white walkers were already around. Not sure who else could be compared to WoT dark one.
The Dark One is as necessary as the light. two sides of same coin. cliche but only because it is true.And sometimes I really question if you read WoT... The bad guys are on their own side. Trying to make it work for themselves. At all points. They are just as much against each other as they are the forces of 'good'. And they all have their own reasons for it as well. The forces of good are not always that great either. Even Rand at several points becomes very questionable. Again, you keep wanting to boil down WoT into simple black and white and it flat out isn't.
We don't know yet. That is kinda my point. But we do know there is something big and bad out there. It might not be at the level of the Great Lord of the Dark... who was more a concept that an actual being, but we will see.. in like 5 years after Martin dies and someone uploads his notes to the net.
Shawn wrote: "And sometimes I really question if you read WoT... The bad guys are on their own side. "That doesn't negate what I said. And they behaved this way because they were influenced by the devil guy. That's the way I understood it. I did only read it once years ago so of course I may miss some details, but I'm pretty sure the good guys vs bad guys was very much a central theme to WoT.
"Again, you keep wanting to boil down WoT into simple black and white and it flat out isn't."
The very few examples of grey area are far outnumbered by the black and whiteness of the main themes and character alignments.
"But we do know there is something big and bad out there."
In what way do we know this?
A rough history of asoiaf from the books.
Children of the Forest are the only humanoid species in Westeros for a million years.
First Men arrive and start a war with them.
(This isn't book cannon yet, but from the show, the Children create the white walkers, possibly to fight off the invading men who are also cutting down their weirwoods.)
A Pact was made between the Children and Men.
They build a wall to keep the white walkers out.
Not sure where a "big bad force" that was there from the beginning fits in there.
The entire theme of ASoIaF I would argue is that war is the true evil in his story. It fits with GRRM's personal beliefs and the themes to some of his other works.
"And they behaved this way because they were influenced by the devil guy.It feels like you barely read WoT. The one reading you did must have been a very shallow read for someone who is talking so much about it. I have read both series at least twice. (jordan more like a dozen because I used to reread the entire series when a new book came out.. something I did with Martin as well... until book 4 and 5 just became too hard to go through after a second time)
If you had really read WoT.. you would know that the dark one was unleashed by Lanfear when she was looking for alternate power sources to the one power. One that could be accessed by anyone. Male and Female alike.
You would know that they all had their own reasons for switching sides. Some for power. Some for love. Some for fear. or jealousy. the chosen are actually pretty interesting.
It sounds like you missed a lot of important details in WoT.
They weren't all black and white though. No more so than GoT. You had a ton of different factions, lots of characters just trying to make their way through a world that was changing dramatically... there is a TON going on.
We have no idea where GoT is going. From what we have seen in the books alone... it points again and again to something dark coming. We have no idea what it is. Parallel to the Dark One which for the majority of people is either myth/legend or just a concept because no one really KNOWs what it is and there are other more immediate things going on (like battles between kingdoms/rulers).. and again.. since lanfear opened the bore, and unleashed him.. it does parallel the idea of the Children of the Forest creating the white walkers and unleashing them upon the world. But even beyond that, why are they striking now? Nothing guides them? We don't know.
You keep trying to make it out like GoT and Martin are soooo deep. And at times it is very well written. But it isn't unique. It isn't original. and it sure as hell isn't that awesome... especially when coupled with the fact that he fucking takes FOREVER to write. I honestly hope he does finish because I would like to see him wrap it up and be impressed by it. But I am pretty sure he is going to die and only be remembered as the guy that couldn't finish his shit and left all his fans hanging.
"If you had really read WoT.. you would know that the dark one was unleashed by Lanfear when she was looking for alternate power sources to the one power."And? I recall that. How does that go against any of my points?
"You would know that they all had their own reasons for switching sides. Some for power. Some for love. Some for fear. or jealousy. the chosen are actually pretty interesting."
Wow, the "Chosen?" Sounds like you are on their side ha. They are the Forsaken, who are still on the side of the "Shadow."
"They weren't all black and white though. No more so than GoT."
Just because the bad guys in WoT have different motives does not negate the black and white, good vs bad theme of WoT.
GoT just doesn't have that same theme.
" it points again and again to something dark coming."
How so? It only points to some type of epic battle, most likely between men and white walkers, but honestly, from what GRRM has hinted at, it's likely not going to play out quite like that. We'll have to see. But so far, no overarching evil force that was there from the beginning. Not even a hint of such a thing.
The Children creating the Others would imply they weren't an evil they were unleashing at first, but that perhaps they realized their power and that they could create wights and grow quickly and turned on the Children.
"You keep trying to make it out like GoT and Martin are soooo deep."
Martin has definitely woven a complex history in his world. But I don't know where besides defending his story I've implied he's "sooooo deep." Of course he's not the first person to have mostly morally grey characters or a writer who kills off a seemingly main character. He is however one of the first to introduce these concepts in a fantasy setting to this extent.
"But I am pretty sure he is going to die and only be remembered as the guy that couldn't finish his shit and left all his fans hanging."
And I'm sure we can rely on your great wisdom into Martin's death.
Because he couldn't have it in place for his story to be finished by another author, right? Or that the show creators know GRRMs ending and said the show would hit all of the major points that Martin outlined for them.
It kind of sounds like you wish he would die before finishing them. I hope not, of course.
I have my own theory that if there are actual gods in asoiaf, that they are all the bad guys. If the Children created the others, they would have had to have used powers from the Old Gods they worshipped. The god R'hllor has done some shady shit, like get Mel to burn Shireen to death. Or raise Catlin to be an undead force of vengeance. I don't think I need to elaborate on the Many-Faced God. Pretty much all of the gods in asoiaf could be argued to be evil or perhaps pitted against each other in some greater war. More likely, though, either gods don't really exist (just magic), or all of the gods are really one conniving god.WoT from the very beginning you know who the big bad guy is and who the nice good guy is. One is a creator on the side of Light and the other is Satan on the side of darkness. I mean, come on, are you really arguing that WoT doesn't follow a black and white theme?
This might help those that aren't familiar with Martin's other books and how their themes might tie in with asoiaf:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMgUI...
Also to note, as far as complaining about artistic output from Martin, don't forget that GRRM has written a lot of novels before ASoIaF. Jordan wrote a few slim Conan books before WoT and that's it. Martin has written another whole series of sci-fi books in a different universe on top of several other stand-alone novels. As far as output goes within a time frame for the two writers, they are closer than you like to complain about.
You said: "they behaved this way because they were influenced by the devil guy" and "How does that go against any of my points?"They weren't. Especially not at first. They were influenced by their own greed or selfishness.
And from the start of the first book... you have been told over and over that Winter is Coming. That something Bad with a capital B is about to happen. Same basic bullshit as a 'dark one'. It is some unknown 'bad' thing coming down the pipeline. Martin has just ignored his main plot to delve into the soap opera of petty human affairs.
Sounds like you are on their side ha
Depends on my mood and my reading. I can understand some of their motivations. ;)
Claiming it is black and white the way you are, and the way Dmitri does, demeans it. There is a shit ton of grey between those extremes and that is where the majority of the story lies. You can look at most things from the perspective of the finished story and boil it down to simple themes.
We have no idea of the full overarching story for GoT yet. Mostly because Martin can't finish. We will see how it goes if he ever finishes. It could easily be just as black and white. Again... the only part of Martin's story we have really seen... is the middle. The set up. The overarching story. The real threat. It has yet to be revealed. Instead we have had pointless drama that does lend itself well to soap opera style television. I am not even saying it isn't enjoyable (books 1-3 were good!) but to act like WoT is simple and yet ignore the same patterns in GoT is just silly.
The Children creating the Others would imply they weren't an evil they were unleashing at first
Same as Lanfear opening the bore. She did it for fairly altruistic reasons... that just went horribly awry.
Martin has definitely woven a complex history in his world.
I would question how complex his history is. It is actually pretty bland and normal for fantasy. CotF are elves. Men are idiotic men that spread like viruses and fight over stupid shit. dragons. zombies. ninja face changers. crazy priests following crazy gods. I mean it is like he read TSR books from the 80s and 90s and cherry picked crap to lump together.
He is however one of the first to introduce these concepts in a fantasy setting to this extent.
No he isn't. Not even slightly the first. Melanie Rawn was doing it long before him and actually killed off real main characters. and there were others as well.
Because he couldn't have it in place for his story to be finished by another author, right?
He has flat out said he has no plans to do this. So no.. it isn't my great wisdom. It is just listening to Martin himself.
http://winteriscoming.net/2015/12/02/...
And I actually think it would be pretty funny at this point if he did die (not the person himself dying.. that would be sad) but the author of a series that has such an egotistical fan base that thinks his shit doesn't stink.. and it forever to be stuck in limbo. remembered only as the series that was never finished. With only clues to what really should have happened mired in television show. ;)
If he finishes it... Im cool with that too. Then I can judge it by what is written. Maybe he will redeem the time it took to write it and the garbage that is book 4 and 5.
or all of the gods are really one conniving god.
Like... maybe a dark one... ;)
WoT from the very beginning you know who the big bad guy is and who the nice good guy is.
No you didn't. You had an idea. an intellectual concept. a bunch of myths and legends used to scare kids. You never really KNEW anything. Especially in the beginning.
I mean, come on, are you really arguing that WoT doesn't follow a black and white theme?
Again, you argue from the point of completion. WoT is complete. You can look at the big picture. It will be interesting to see the picture that GoT paints once we can step back and see it in its entirety.
I don't deny that there are elements of black and white in WoT. The difference is that I acknowledge that they aren't the only elements, nor even the majority. When you claim WoT is black and white, you write off all the grey that makes up the vast majority of the series.
Jordan wrote a few slim Conan books before WoT and that's it You need to do your research better.
And I love how you claim Jordan only wrote some 'slim' conan books.. yet when you look up Martin... 2/3rd of his works include work as an editor or short stories/novellas..
You are so biased it isn't even funny.
"They weren't. Especially not at first. They were influenced by their own greed or selfishness."No, that was their motivation. They were evil.
"And from the start of the first book... you have been told over and over that Winter is Coming."
It is coming. That's the motto of the starks. Winters last a long time and the next one is coming. Along with the white walkers. It's not that mysterious and doesn't point to any permeating evil source.
"It could easily be just as black and white."
Nah, Martin has said many times he is specifically avoiding this trope.
"Same as Lanfear opening the bore. She did it for fairly altruistic reasons... that just went horribly awry."
That is not the same at all.
"I would question how complex his history is."
Yikes that's painfully ignorant. Martin has literally written a separate novel of the history of the inhabitants and central players of Westeros going back thousands of year. Wow man.
"No he isn't. Not even slightly the first. Melanie Rawn was doing it long before him and actually killed off real main characters."
Oh yeah, no main characters in asoiaf die ha! :D
"And I actually think it would be pretty funny at this point if he did die (not the person himself dying.. that would be sad)"
Not sure what this means but okay.
"No you didn't. You had an idea. an intellectual concept. a bunch of myths and legends used to scare kids. You never really KNEW anything. Especially in the beginning."
Yes you did know. Right from the start foul beasts are attacking and a wondrous women with a fighting rogue show up and save them.
It never deviates from this basic arch of good guys fighting off evil.
"You need to do your research better.
And I love how you claim Jordan only wrote some 'slim' conan books.. yet when you look up Martin... 2/3rd of his works include work as an editor or short stories/novellas..
You are so biased it isn't even funny. "
I did and we are talking about novels here. Now go back and just add up Martin's full length novels.
I am biased. You aren't of course, though :P
Shawn wrote: "And I will say that 'You know nothing, Dmitri'.Read WoT and then you can comment on it. Claiming anything about it, based upon what others say, is just flat out ignorant.
I have just recently re..."
I like Jaime. I didn't in the first two. But after that, he was cool. We learn why he does everything, we learned that he really is a nice guy. Then he starts to fall apart from Cersei which is good because the only reason he did anything bad was for her. Plus, I hate cersei. Hurry up and get choked to death you drunken bitch. But to get to the point, everyone has differing minds and opinions. To me, Jaime isn't such a bad guy. He is but he isn't. Maybe if you just watch the show you'll think he is with him raping Cersei and all that. And tbh, I don't really like all these honor driven characters. I disliked Ned for example. I don't understand why he was so liked. He does so much stupid shit. Dumbass should not have confronted Joffery and Cersei. He should've just got the fuck out of KL. I like more dishonorable characters like Tyrion and Stannis. Well, they aren't too dishonorable, but still.
And frankly, this whole killing off characters thing needs to stop. Most characters that are killed are minor characters(mainly because there's lots of minor characters) But a lot of main characters have been killed too. I don't understand how you can say Dany and Jon Snow are the only two main characters. That's rediculous. They are most likely going to do something together in the end, but they are not the only characters that aren't minor. I'd go as far to say pretty much every pov character is a main character(minus intro and epilogue characters and a few others) plus some characters without pov chapters(Stannis, Robb, Tywin, Joffery, Walder Frey, etc.). You can't sit here and say that the deaths don't matter when pretty much every death has an influence. Especially on the reader when we find out some of our favorite characters are dead and are probably not coming back(note: probably). They aren't just for the sake of being edgy. Look at it this way. Richard Karstark's kids are killed, because of this he hates Jaime, because of this when Caitlyn releases Jaime he kills two children, because of this he is executed, because of this house Karstark betrays house Stark, eventually they would try to trick Stannis and kill him. So yeah. A few minor deaths can do all that.
To put up a bit of a white flag, I'll point back to my first comment in this thread:"They are just too different. I like them equally for many different, and often conflicting reasons, and one of the series ins't even completed yet, so it feels even weirder trying to compare an unfinished work with a finished one."
And I will also say I'm still a fan of black and white fantasy. The Hobbit changed my view of fiction. And WoT was great enough that I own the whole series on paperback (I still adore the way Jordan developed magic in his world and how large he made the world; like Tolkien). I'm also a big fan of D&D (Dungeons and Dragons) which is based mostly on good vs evil themes, but is so much fun to dive into.
But at the same time, I will call out my own bias and stick to my opinion that Martin is on another level than Jordan, from plot, to prose, to dialogue, and even descriptions.
Well I believe the world building in WOT is leagues ahead than ASOIAF, and the fact that it didnt use repetitive shock value of death/rape/incest for success makes it better for me.Simply put as of now in terms of characters,
Dragon Reborn > Mother of Dragons
Perrin Wolf > Jon Snow and Ghost
Mat >>> Tyrion (no competition for me)
Egwene (ending) > Arya (but Arya has potential)
and lets not get to the bad guys unless you want to compare forsaken to red priests and fades to white walkers
plus with aiel, seanchan, tinkers and so much of detail on all of them jordan could write 5 series of GOT scale in half the time.
I think death, rape, and incest was very much a part of the brutality of the Middle Ages, especially during major wars. Nothing shocking about it.
Will wrote: "I think death, rape, and incest was very much a part of the brutality of the Middle Ages, especially during major wars. Nothing shocking about it."Agreed, but getting people invested in characters and then bumping them off was cool in the beginning but doing it over and over is just lazy writing.
I love both, but they're very different. WoT is a lot lighter in tone a lot of the time, while ASOIAF does its best to do a warts and all representation of the world. If I had to give one the edge right now, it'd be WoT just because it's finished, and most people I would recommend a fantasy series to already know the broad strokes of ASOIAF from the HBO show.
I've always wondered why WoT didn't get a TV series but ASoIaF/GOT did. WoT got a comic book series for Eye of the World and maybe future books.
Kristin wrote: "I've always wondered why WoT didn't get a TV series but ASoIaF/GOT did. WoT got a comic book series for Eye of the World and maybe future books."TV series was just confirmed. GoT is ending...
Emma wrote: "Kristin wrote: "I've always wondered why WoT didn't get a TV series but ASoIaF/GOT did. WoT got a comic book series for Eye of the World and maybe future books."TV series was just confirmed. GoT ..."
I did not know about the TV series!!! Thank you!!
Actually, everything borrows from the Bible, not from Tolkein or anyone else. It all goes back to that book.ASOIAF is by far better than WoT. WoT is more for children...ASOIAF has much more nuanced characters. I enjoy LOTR or even Harry Potter more than WoT.
Actually, there are older examples than the Bible of such tales. The Epic of Gilgamesh for instance and old mythologies.
Will wrote: "Actually, there are older examples than the Bible of such tales. The Epic of Gilgamesh for instance and old mythologies."She thinks no one anywhere was influenced by Tolkein (or anyone else, for that matter) and half of her read books are by Ann Coulter. Do you really think she's listening or cares about the reality of things?
I mean, she thinks children read 4,000,000 word long epics.
This entire thread is filled with people trying to justify a heavily subjective topic. There is no such thing as "better" when it comes to works of fiction. It's 100% made up! There is only what you like and dislike about something. Most of this is pointing out dislikes as if it's a valid justification of why something else is better. Dislikes don't mean anything. They just mean they are dislikes. Dislikes don't equal actual flaws. A crack in a windshield is a flaw. As a consequence I JUST happen to dislike it. But chocolate is not a flaw. It's just chocolate. But I dislike it. See? Dislikes don't equate to flaws. Dislikes are just dislikes. Your arguments are dumb.I say this because this whole thread is argumentative in the hopes of someone finally hitting on an unarguable good point. That will never happen in this thread or any other of it's kind. "This fantasy series is better because ( insert detailed negative connotations about what I think is the lesser qualities of the one I don't like.)"
I guess what people in this thread don't understand is: There is no accounting for taste.
I read through this thread hoping it would go to a good place. Maybe something like this:
I like WoT because of the intricate rise and fall of so many diverse characters weaved with satisfying good vs evil action and elements of mystery that slowly but surely get answered. Each book, in my opinion, have satisfying conclusions and progression. I wasn't always happy the way things turned out but most of the time I was and I have re-read this series several times and always catch some clues that I missed from the previous read keeping it fresh and enjoyable.
I like A Song of Fire and Ice for the political intrigue, mystery, and specific points of view of each presented character. Even with characters I didn't quite understand, there were sentences, phrases, and/or conclusions that left me with awe or eager questioning ire. Each character viewpoint felt very different from the next and I love how they eventually crossed and intersected much later in the story and continued on to grander conclusion that hasn't been reached yet.
In both descriptions I pointed out positive opinions and elements of each series. If someone else had said this I would have joined the conversation from a fun-eager place.
But what is happening here is people implying "Others are wrong for not agreeing with me." Really?
What I'm really trying to say, what no one has pointed out and should have, is this thread started with a stupid question. Yes, there are stupid questions.
And you guys missed it.
P.S. The irony of this comment and the point I was trying to make is not lost on me. But this whole thread smacks of whiners and I figured I would whine too but from a soapbox place to make it more fresh because, I, like you am extremely bored to even be participating in this farce of a thread.....please.....continue with your derivative drivel. /Rant off
D.S. wrote: "What I'm really trying to say, what no one has pointed out and should have, is this thread started with a stupid question. Yes, there are stupid questions.And you guys missed it."
No one missed it. It's just pointless to comment on a thread called "Your opinion on water" by whining about how no one can prove their opinion on wetness is true. Opinions are the point of the question, so complaining that it's all opinion just seems sort of weird and more than a little absurd. It's hardly a revelation.
Sherlock Holmes does not get points for being observant because he noticed it's daytime. Everyone else had processed that info before he ever showed and since it isn't of note, no one bothered noting it.
Dani wrote: "Actually, everything borrows from the Bible, not from Tolkein or anyone else. It all goes back to that book.ASOIAF is by far better than WoT. WoT is more for children...ASOIAF has much more nuanc..."
I agree with Will about something.. amazing lol.. just was looking this thread over and saw there were new replies.. only one that made me want to say something was this lady's...
Just wow about the bible bullshit. The story of the flood in the bible is almost 100% stolen from the epic of Gilgamesh which was written approximately 2 thousand years before the supposed birth of christ.. the bible (and christians in general) stole countless stories and oral traditions and pagan beliefs and ideas.. sooo no, not everything traces back to the bible.
and seriously? WoT is for children? okkkay then. I would say that is a simplistic and childish critique.
In my opinion, even as a big fan of the ASOIAF books... I'd say WoT. Martin's lack of commitment to the book series really shows, and he is far too willing to leave his worlds, stories, and ideas behind as soon as even a bit of fame comes his way. I really hate to say it, but I'm honestly very unsure if the series will conclude during his lifetime.
The Wheel of Time. Here's why:-It's finished, for one thing.
-The main characters aren't killed off until late in the series and even then a very small number of them are.
Those are the two main problems, I feel, with ASOIAF at the moment.
-The writing style and structure of the books was much more enjoyable for me to read.
-I liked the characters more (probably because they're all alive for most of it)
-World building is way better.
-With the first few books and the last few, they really grabbed my attention and I found myself reading them on the edge of my seat. I have not been THAT excited for a book in a long, long time. It was never like that with GOT for me :/
-I get this sort of feeling that George R R Martin just doesn't care in the way Jordan did. I don't really know how to explain that, but there is just something about the way Jordan treated his world and his characters that feels like a whole other level than what George did. I don't know.
Overall, I enjoyed the Wheel of Time series way more than I did A Song of Ice and Fire, and I can't wait for the TV show!
I completely agree about the feeling from the authors. Jordan cared about his world... Martin profits from his. (not say both didn't profit or both don't care.. but if I had to select one that fits each author.. that is how I would label them.)
I think GRRM just dug himself into a hole. It's definitely NOT that he doesn't care. He's been a very accomplished writer long before ASoIaF.I think a lot of GRRM antagonists don't know about his previous works.
He mostly wrote short stories, or smaller novels that aren't as "epic" in scope. But they all have very similar and interesting themes.
With this series, he wanted to be able to go fully in depth with a whole world on his own terms and just go nuts. Then his series got picked up by HBO. All downhill from there.
Will wrote: "I think GRRM just dug himself into a hole. It's definitely NOT that he doesn't care. He's been a very accomplished writer long before ASoIaF.I think a lot of GRRM antagonists don't know about his ..."
Well im actually not talking about him not caring about his other work. Im sure his other work is great. I am saying it FEELS like he doesnt care for his world in ASOIAF as strongly as Robert Jordan did for his. I'm not talking about his other work at all. And that brings me.
WHY is he writing spin offs right now, instead of making Winds of Winter his main focus? Why are there all these side stories like Dunc and Egg and the Hedge Night one BEFORE he has completed the main stream series? Which then brings me to another reason to like the wheel of time better;
With the wheel of time there are no side stories, and books coming off the side of the series. Its just one straightforward thing (if you can call it that) thats something else i prefer about it.
If he didn't care about this "universe" why would he write more stories within it? I think he just knows the tv show frontrunners are fucking his story up, so he's waiting for the show to wrap up before he finishes his own product. Or maybe the fame he received from the first books in the series is holding him back. He's a perfectionist and wants the last 2 books to be perfect for his fans.
From his own comments, it's probably a combination of the two. Just because it's taking him a long time to finish up the series doesn't mean he doesn't care. It in fact might be an indication that he cares TOO much.
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