A Song of Ice and Fire
discussion
Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice & Fire?
No, a person saying Hodor bc that's al he can say is NOT the same as using the same descriptive phrases. One is the words of a character, the other is poor writing. Characters DO die. Like in real life. Better than WoT where you can pretty much guarantee that even dead main characters aren't really dead. No one on the good side among all of the main characters dies.
Jordan's female characters were not that empowering. They were all emphatic red with men and followed their lead. Not so with women characters on GoT. There are many female warriors in the books that take their own lead.
sure sure bud. hodor is horrible writing as is the travel guides that are the majority of book 4 and 5. (entire books that are garbage instead of a few lines repeated) and frankly you dont understand what you are talking about if you think that braid pulling is any less showing of character than some idiot screaming hodor over and over again or some random chick telling jon he knows nothing 4 billion times. but hey. justify it to yourself however you want.and please. people dont stay dead in martins crap either. you also clearly didnt read WoT because there are plenty of main characters that do die.
all the women except maybe cersei are flat and boring one dimensional characters. that follow troupes and cliches from countless other stories. stop acting like martin is special or unique. he isnt. and that isnt a bad thing.. but it doesnt make him special either.
I own the entire series. What main characters die? I don't think you read it. Hodor can't help it and John's girl says that maybe 6 times.
you clearly didnt finish WoT. egwene. siuan. gawyn. bela (hurt more than any character in GoT) taim. alanna. rhuarc. bashere... and many more.
he can help it. it was a way for martin to show his character and that is fine. just like it was fine for jordan to use braid pulling to show frustration. same shit. and she says it way more than 6 times. especially if you factor in the times he imagines her saying it. but again.. it is the same shit. you can not like it and thats fine. but martin does it just as much as jordan.
Only two of those you mentioned are main characters and they didn't die until the very, very, VERY end. And even then, Egwene was more of a sacrifice instead of an ordinary death from war. That was the only surprise in the books really. And everyone saw the death of Siuan coming. Sorry, but no, there are many more ways to describe someone being upset. Hodor literally can't say anything else and like I said, she tells John Snow he knows nothing a few times. Most people found it charming and it only happened a few times across 2 books.
they died. period. doesnt matter when they did. hell ned doesnt die till the end of book 1 and it doesnt make it any better or worse. and all of those characters were more fleshed out and important to the story than any of martins deaths.you are again showing your bias in your opinion that martin is better when they utilize the same tools. i didnt find 'you know nothing jon snow' charming. it was repititious and annoying. just like hodor a million times was skim worthy.
Well yes, everyone puts bias in an opinion by definition. I actually really like WoT despite its many flaws. And I actually think GoT has a ton of flaws too, just not the ones you see.
For people saying Martin has no trouble killing main characters, are you certain Ned or Robb are main characters in the first place? Simply because Ned had a POV doesn't make him the most important guy there. Arya,Sansa,Tyrion, and Jon were much more important in the narrative.He was the established lord of winterfell,had 5 children,lived lies and was,for all intents and purposes in his twilight years if you look at it in a narrative sense. He is,in fact,comparable to the wise old mentor archetype.Robbs death cleared unwanted,complications in the north for Stannis and Jon and helped push the story forward. Thus,if you know where to look,Martins just as predictable as any other fantasy author. Just cleverer in his narration what with his focus on the politcs and people over the more supernatural aspects.
Varun wrote: "For people saying Martin has no trouble killing main characters, are you certain Ned or Robb are main characters in the first place? Simply because Ned had a POV doesn't make him the most important..."That's just because you're looking at the books in hindsight. In the first book, Ned was the main character - there's no two ways about it. He has by far the most number of PoV chapters. His actions (or in some cases, inaction) drove the narrative. Every other important character was connected to him - even Daenerys, who was off in her own subplot halfway around the world.
I don't see how he can be called the 'wise old mentor' in any way. Who did he mentor? Wise old mentors are characters like Gandalf and Dumbledore, who guide the hero in his journey. In AGoT, Ned was the hero. A hero who died. Since there were several more books left in the series, other heroes had to take his place in the later books.
Robb was no doubt less important - he's not a PoV character and he's hardly even present in ACoK. But once again, you can think of him as unimportant only in hindsight. Did anyone who read the 'King of the North' scene in AGoT harbour the tiniest suspicion that Robb would not avenge his father and restore the fortunes of House Stark? Did anyone have the slightest inkling that Robb would die ignominiously well before the series was even halfway through?
No, these are no predictable deaths. You can claim that they are after reading the books and seeing how the story continues just fine even after such important characters die. But that's not the same as actually predicting the deaths before they occurred.
You are looking at it too narrowly.ASoIaF is a series.. and none of the books stand alone, not even slightly -- though book one does comes the closest. So if you look at the greater picture, and the series as a whole, then it becomes clear that Ned and Robb and every single character he kills off is not a main character. Not just because they are killed, but because of their place in the overall story.
And yes, hindsight does help with that, but you are seriously naive if you thought Robb was going to magically win the day. It was the same pattern from book 1. There are troubles.. bring in a Stark.. Things look like they might get better... and oh yeah.. dead Stark. The pattern could continue, but they have run out of the legitimate Starks now. They only have bastards(not really) and cripples and women. All of which have limitations within Martin's world.
Varun also said Ned was comparable to the wise old mentor. And it does fit. He dispensed advice and then died. It fits the archetype.
And yes, anyone that has read fiction before -- ESPECIALLY after Ned died -- should have expected the majority of the deaths that have happened. And I wasn't surprised at all when people stopped staying dead as well.
There is a difference between predicting xyz character is going to die, and Martin being predictable about killing off characters. At this point he is killing characters off just to be edgy. Ohhhh he is the guy known for killing off a character!!! So let's waste a couple hundred pages on some random idiot no one cares about and then killllll him!!!! Super special!!!!
I repeat. I cannot wait for the show to finish so that Martin can fade back into obscurity where he belongs.
Shawn wrote: "You are looking at it too narrowly.ASoIaF is a series.. and none of the books stand alone, not even slightly -- though book one does comes the closest. So if you look at the greater picture, an..."
You're doing exactly what Varun is doing: looking at the 5 books so far and then pretending that the deaths in them were predictable from book 1 onwards. That's hindsight!
You can claim on hindsight that it's 'naive' to believe that Robb was going to save the day. But I don't think there's a single reader who didn't think that at the end of AGoT.
What was the trouble in being a Stark in book 1? They were doing just fine until Ned's death at the end of the book. The rest were all alive until the Red Wedding in book 3. Also, they haven't 'run out' of anyone. Only Ned and Robb are permanently dead.
No, Ned was not a mentor. Who did he advise? Only Robert, who didn't take that advice at all. (And in any case, Robert was not a hero character.)
After the third book, the death toll has gone down considerably. If anything, Martin has gone to the other extreme, and gone a little overboard with the death fake-outs - hardly a case of 'killing characters off just to be edgy'. Quentyn Martell is the only character of any significance who dies in the fourth and fifth books.
If you personally don't like Martin's style, that's fine. No one is forcing you to like him. But that doesn't mean that you can pretend to have predicted Ned's death and the Red Wedding, the two biggest plot twists in the series.
No. I read them... ages ago.. and knew that Robb was going down. It wasn't hard to see. You might have missed all the signs, but that is your problem, not ours.
Read what I wrote more carefully.
I said 'there is trouble, a stark comes in.. things look to be getting better, and then the stark dies' Not that the stark themselves is the trouble or in trouble to start with.
Hell, Ned foreshadows his death from the start of book 1. He knows going is the wrong decision.
And yes, they have run out of Starks that are disposable. What is left are cripples, supposedly bastards, or young girls. Out of them, I bet that Arya dies by the conclusion. Jon basically already has, but conveniently will live.
Ned mentored Robb, Jon, Arya, even Sansa though she didn't listen. It just wasn't always 'on screen'. He kinda raised them ya know? You are seriously too narrow in your views. Not all mentors have to be Obiwan. Hell, Gandalf isn't really a mentor either. He doesn't die and he really doesn't teach much. He is just a grumpy old fucking wizard that is too dumb to call the eagles.
There is no pretending. I saw Robb's death coming from far away. I am not claiming to have seen the exact specifics of the red wedding -- though as you got closer to it in the book, it was pretty obvious that it wasn't going to go right -- but yes, I knew Robb was going to die. It was FAR too neat and tiddy, and there was no way the author that killed off Ned was going to let Robb turn it all around so easily.
It is cool that you were surprised. Nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean others of us didn't see it coming. Martin isn't original. He isn't special. He isn't this super unique awesome author. And he is pretty damn predictable.
You people look for visible similarity between Ned and other wise old mentor types and thus probably won't find it. Note how he tells Bran about following the old ways, or hires Syrio Forel to teach Arya,etc. Admitedly, its in hindsight you find out he is not the real main character primarily due to the way he's written. But that still does not change the fact as he had little to offer in the way of a future. He had secrets and a past but can you imagine a story without his death? What can he really do alive that actually contributes to the narrative? You don't see it coming as you share his thoughts but that does not change what his character type is:supporting. I stated that "if you know where to look",Martin can be predicted. It's not easy to spot patterns when you hold Ned Starks death like a carrot and a stick.I don't hate Martin but the fact remains that however "realistic" a story is, every narrative follows subtle rules that even the author can't breach without majorly ruining the story.
Ajay wrote: "Jordans series is for an older generation. People have read Martins fantasy and my not have heard of Wheel of Time. Besides being a fresher series HBO has turned on a whole new set of readers wit..."
It's true that SoIaF is better known, but I read some of each series before deciding to stick with WoT. Better by far in my opinion (just in my opinion, not saying plenty of people won't like SoIaF better) and I'm a Millennial. I do think it's funny that fans of both series complain about them dragging on.
It's true that SoIaF is better known, but I read some of each series before deciding to stick with WoT. Better by far in my opinion (just in my opinion, not saying plenty of people won't like SoIaF better) and I'm a Millennial. I do think it's funny that fans of both series complain about them dragging on.
Mac wrote: "Many people here are right ASoIaF and WoT and not comparable. WoT is so much better than ASoIaF in almost every way i can think of, it is unfair to compare them. I have only read GoT and half of AC..."
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. How can anyone complain about more detail in a book?
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. How can anyone complain about more detail in a book?
Wow, people take Goodreads discussions waaaaaaay too serious lol.
When i read WoT i wanted to role my eyes cos it was about good vs evil and blah blah. I found it kinda naive. While i read Asoiaf i had goosebumps cos this series are so epic and they way Martin described the world. I just asoiaf is more realistic, the characters there are more realistic and even though its set in a fantasy world, u can see actually pretty much a lot of similarities with our world.
I enjoyed reading Wot a lot more than i enjoyed ASoIaF. However I believe that the 2 Series are not comparable as both have different main themes(so far). However I see that many people here believe that WoT is too much the basic Good Vs Evil theme and though that is the story's main theme I disagree that the story is too focused on it as can be seen in the succession Elayne has to face, the power conflict between the rebels and Elaida's loyalists, the conspiracies of the Ajah heads to control Tar Valon and other such incidents. Nor are there 2 factions in which people are divided, we have the Whitecloaks who have their own viewpoint of right and wrong, these things are seen even in the final book with Seanchan having their own views about war, Sharans who were right people following the wrong man. Also to say that ASoIaF has no good Vs evil theme would be wrong as the story may be headed that way at the wall. Basically we have a great battle looming in both series and infighting among the people of one side.If you have to compare WoT it is more easily comparable to Sword Of Truth with parallels between nearly everything.
Honestly one of the nicest parts of WoT over ASoIaF or sword of truth, is that it doesn't have a rape scene every five pages.Cool.. I get it.. martin wants to be 'gritty' and 'real'.. but it gets old. Same for goodkind.
No problem not liking ASoIaF, but to say there is a rape scene every 5 pages is beyond hyperbole into the utter ridiculous.Males spank their female peers in WoT more than rapes occur in ASoIaF. And not sure if you've read about war, especially in the Middle Ages, but there was quite a bit of "raping and pillaging" going on during war.
Thanks Captain Obvious! i am sure noooo one else could see the exaggeration. Doesn't make my point any less valid. and hypocrite much? Though all of spanking in WoT is at least consensual. (and there really isnt nearly as much as you are trying to claim)the majority of the rapes dont occur on the battlefield. and while it might be 'realistic' the way martin and goodkind portray it, it just makes it closer to fucked up sicko porn than to just a nod to what might really happen.
Frankly the 'ooohhh martin is trying to be so true to the time period' is hilarious since he is writing a fucking work of fantasy. none of it is true, no matter what it resembles, and he picks and chooses what he keeps in. so it is a valid complaint that he chooses to keep rape after rape after goreporn after incestporn.. etc. It gets old and drags on his shitty story with 'startle' effects.. not quality writing. It is like the difference between saw and poltergeist (original). Saw just relies upon making you jump by throwing crap at the screen. It isnt really scary. just like Martin isn't interesting. He 'kills' characters.. and has incest and rape. he is like the Britney spears pop star of fantasy. all flash and no substance.
No, the spankings weren't mutual. Lol. It was one male punishing a female always.And I was pointing out not just the over exaggeration. But the fact that it's so exaggerated as to be completely antithetical to whatever point you were trying to make. In other words, yes, it does in fact make your point invalid. I'd be a hypocrite if I said that those spankings occur overt 5 pages. But I didn't. I said they occur about as much as rapings in ASoIaF, which is to say, actually very infrequently.
Incest happens. Especially during the era the books are supposed to be mirroring. Makes no sense to ignore extreme cases. In the words of GRRM himself:
"“And then there’s the whole issue of sexual violence, which I’ve been criticized for as well. I’m writing about war, which what almost all epic fantasy is about. But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that. Rape, unfortunately, is still a part of war today. It’s not a strong testament to the human race, but I don’t think we should pretend it doesn’t exist."
You didn't read it that closely if you think only men were spanking women. (and I would argue that the majority of the spankings were consensual. They did have other options.)And umm. no. Not even slightly exaggerated to the point of being 'antithetical' (gotta love a boy with a thesaurus). Every book in ASoIaF uses a rape, a death, and other acts of degradation to shock the reader. It is overkill, and it gets old, and it does feel like it is every 5 pages. Again, an exaggeration, but it doesn't invalidate the point that there is more than is even slightly necessary. (also, if you paid attention instead of blindly defending your BFF Martin, you would have noticed I also was referencing SoT)
There is the key word... EXTREME... in ASoIaF it is not extreme cases, it is every case.
And he isn't really writing about war. Nothing is fucking happening in these stupid books.. and the majority of rapes are not happening 'during' war. It is one thing if he was writing about a town getting sacked, and during it the women being raped, but that is only a small portion of it.
I get it. You loooooooove Martin. But his books are all hype. And Vapor-Hype at that since it takes him forever to write one. He isn't original. He isn't special. His writing isn't even that great. He relies upon shock value to maintain his audience. Eventually it gets old... and add that to the delays in his book releases.. and it is easy to get over Martin pretty quick.
Like I needed a thesaurus for a 6th grade vocabulary word. Maybe it was impressive to you, but it was hardly an obscure word. Get over yourself. I like Jordan just as much as GRRM, but your complaints against GRRM are utterly unfounded and not based on reality. In fact, it's your hyperbolic language that is hyping GRRM (notice the root word; hype is literally derived from hyperbole).
I do think Jordan has more writing flaws, but they are so different and I like them both for completely different reasons. I actually own the entire WoT series while ASpIaF I borrowed from a friend or read it inside the bookstore. You are inferring motives which aren't there.
And sorry you are just flat wrong about the spanking. I mean it was weird and unrealistic for one thing, but it was never consensual that I remember. Feel free to quote from the book and prove me wrong.
It really, really doesn't sound like you've actually read through ASoIaF, by the way. Hey, maybe you did and just skipped every 300 pages for something horrific and realistic, but sure doesn't sound like it at all. I mean, there are literally huge battle scenes from the wars throughout the books. It's fucking wartime on multiple fronts. For the amount of war in WoT, there's hardly any realism. It never made me feel and empathize with the terrors of war. I'm no history student, but real war is much more brutal from all accounts I've ever read. I like ASoIaF for just that reason - it's compelling. It reminds me of the real accounts I've read and therefor makes me contemplate human nature - in a way that WoT doesn't do.
WoT I enjoy for the immersion into a huge, detailed Universe. That's a huge plus. The magic is very cool in it as well. The plot, eh. The character, okay, but silly. The dialogue is downright terrible at times. But the vastness of the World he created was easily enough for me.
You might have problems with that 6th grade vocabulary... because hype is not linguistically derived from hyperbole.http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/...
let me help:
Hype:
Noun: extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion.
Verb: promote or publicize (a product or idea) intensively, often exaggerating its importance or benefits.
You might be able to claim I promote Martin by talking about him... I would argue that, while yes, it might add slightly to the overall hype by talking about it in general, my comments far from promote Martin. They do the exact opposite.
If anything I am hyping hate for Martin. And that is an idea I promote and urge people to know the importance of ;)
You are the one claiming the spanking is weird and unrealistic, so the burden of proof is upon you. Maybe you have never had a girlfriend you playfully smack on the butt... ;) (not a dig there.. just saying.)
The examples I can think of are between Perrin and Faile.. and that is their courtship, which is already different (you could insert weird here, but that is all in the eye of the beholder). The Aes Sedai... part of their traditions and punishments, that they consent to.. etc etc. The majority of it never struck me as overtly sexual, but more a reminder that their actions were childish and deserved a child's punishment. I can't really think of any other spanking. There is talk of tanning someones hide.. (spanking) but people say crap like that all the time. It's the equivalent of saying you are going to beat someones ass.
I never said there weren't wars. I said that they aren't at war when the majority of the rapes are shown in the books. And just because somewhere somehow sometime there is a war going on... doesn't mean you should be expecting rapes anywhere anytime anyhow, with the justification of 'ITS WAR!!!!"WoT doesn't go for the cheap thrill. It isn't about the gritty realism. If I want that, I would read non-fiction. I am not into gore-porn. I would also argue that Jordan does a really good job with his battles, and Sanderson did even better, especially during the Last Battle.. They are good on a small and large scale, since you get to see both.
Martin does okay.. I wouldn't have been reading him if there weren't parts of his books I didn't enjoy to some degree.. but every single time... he goes for the cheap shot. He is porn, while Jordan is Disney.
If Martin wasn't such an incredibly slow writer, mostly because he lets himself get so distracted, perhaps it would be easier to overlook some of the things that are most irritating.. but book 4 and 5 could have been cut to about 200 pages combined and it would have been better for the entire series.
But anyways.. Each to their own. I don't think you have to hate Martin.. but it gets reaaaaally old hearing people constantly defend him.. or talking him up like he is this great unique writer. He isn't.
That definition doesn't refute my statement about hype. And you should look up the actual etymology: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hype"Back-formation from hyperbole"
Hype can be positive or negative.
I never claimed the spanking was sexual, but that it was between peers. I wasn't even thinking of all the Aes Sedai spanking.
The type of spanking was rarely the playful type. Mat spanked women of his own age to the point they were thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed. It was very weird. The Aws Sedai spanking was another type of weird but still odd nonetheless.
Again the ridiculous hyperbole. "Gore-porn" hahaha. Utterly ridiculous. And actually, most of the very few rapes that occur happen during a war. The Dothraki pillaging, the soldiers against the poor, etc. you clearly haven't even read the books so I don't know why I'm continuing this.
I'll agree that Sanderson dos very well with battles. Plenty of violence in WoT battled. Remember Lord of Chaos. It was a bloodbath. Nothing to admire about Disney and black and white morality.
I think I will go with the Oxford English Dictionary over wikitionary any day.By definition Hype is positive. Negative promotion can hype something by making it more known, but hype, as a term, is blowing something up as bigger than it is, in a positive light. Which goes back to the etymology. (which again, does not involve hyperbole)
and I don't recall Rand or Matt or Perrin spanking each other.. so give some examples please. (and even if they had.. we have tons of sports personalities that spank each other in the locker room all the time.. I agree it is pretty odd.. buuuut to each their own.
I didn't say, again, that those rapes didn't occur, but Martin doesn't focus on them as much. I am talking about the other rapes, the almost rapes, and the other sexual abuse martin puts in.I would disagree. Disney has a lot of positives. And if you go back to some of their early stuff, it wasn't as black and white. Hell Black Cauldron was an awesome movie. And Frozen is a big step forward.
Beyond that, Martin can be boiled down to: "EVERYONE IS OUT FOR THEMSELVES! So FUCK OVER EVERYONE ELSE BEFORE THEY DO IT TO YOU!" That is the only message his book has.
If you can't see Martin for the Gore-Porn that it is... I don't know what to tell you. Especially the show.
I don't get it the major battles in WoT are Trollocs Vs Humans and there is hardly time to do anything but plan the next battle and I don't see how we can have a rape incident between Trollocs and humans. It is mentioned and hinted sometimes that Trollocs have raped and Martin's statement about ignoring the aftermath in epic fantasy is quite true but giving gory details about rape scenes and the deceased warriors is rather too much. As far as Martin's claims go that he is being more realistic and so he kills his "lead" characters, I don't understand the realistic part of how exactly:1. Stannis never knew that a large host of Tyrell and Lannister bannermen was less than a day away.(Battle of Blackwater)
2. Robb Stark and all his bannermen(even some bannermen of Tullys) were easily slaughtered by Bolton And Frey Men(So many lords' forces by the forces of 2 lords.)
3. Roose Bolton has more men then Starks themselves, none of his men betray him against the Starks before the RED WEDDING despite the fact that he is a cruel man and is harsh and unjust to his people.
4. Dany, Jon and Tyrion have been in tight spots so many times but always escape nearly unscathed!(Jon was stabbed only recently and nearly every1 believes that he will come back). It is also very clear that these 3 are the true "lead characters".
I don't care about the definition of the word. I'm talking about the etymology. Oxford doesn't deal with etymology.And fine, how about this link: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?a...
I'm sorry but you are wrong. Have you taken Latin before? Regardless of this inane argument you're continuing, the point was that your hyperbole doesn't do your points justice. They would if the books were even remotely how you describe them. Also it's clearly not every person for themself. There are tons of characters that help each other out along the way. Again, a clear indication you haven't read the series.
I didn't say Matt Rand and Perrin spanked each other. Matt spanked his female peers on many occasions. More occasions than GRRM describes a rape. This is how I know you haven't actually read ASoIaF. And I'm not talking about the show, which happens to be tame compared to the violence in many shows. Ever see HBO's Rome?
It's not even remotely close to gore-porn. More ridiculousness from you. Stop spewing tripe.
Will wrote: "I don't care about the definition of the word. I'm talking about the etymology. Oxford doesn't deal with etymology.And fine, how about this link: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?a......"
*grabs popcorn* Will hardly ever loses it with people in these threads. This should be good.
I'm probably just going to let him have the last word on all this. Not worth it. I could care less if someone doesn't like GRRM, even if it's because of the violence. But a little consistency with the reasoning would go a long way. Jordan deals with sexuality in the most immature sense and is never even remotely graphic in that department. Nickelodeon type of suggestive romance and that's it. But Jordan is easily just as gory on many occasions. Rand slaughtered hundreds of Shaido which described them as exploding and their flesh and blood spraying out. Sounds like some gore-porn, eh? (sarcasm). I must input more about Disney, though. The female Cinderella-like role models for decades was clearly damaging. Females who were helpless unless Prince Charming came along and then he could take care of her. Ugh. Very very weak role models for women. They do go against that archetype on occasion, but that's no reason to celebrate them.
"I don't care about the definition of the word." -- ignorant thing to say, but not surprising since you just want to distract from the argument that you continue to lose."Oxford doesn't deal with etymology." -- Even more ignorant thing to say. If you think that the Oxford English Dictionary doesn't deal with etymology... you are simply too ignorant to continue talking to.
Your link even says it best... "probably, in part" No where, at all, does it state explicitly that it comes from Hyperbole. Let's link all the text:
"excessive or misleading publicity or advertising," 1967, American English (the verb is attested from 1937), probably in part a back-formation of hyperbole, but also from underworld slang sense "swindle by overcharging or short-changing" (1926), a back-formation of hyper "short-change con man" (1914), from prefix hyper- meaning "over, to excess." Also possibly influenced by drug addicts' slang hype, 1913 shortening of hypodermic needle. Related: Hyped; hyping. In early 18c., hyp "morbid depression of the spirits" was colloquial for hypochondria (usually as the hyp or the hyps).
Nice try though bud. I can also link several other sites that show it more likely linked to hypodermic.
Barely anyone helps anyone else in these shitty books. Especially if it doesn't help themselves somewhere along the way. Don't give me that shit. You are seriously getting hilarious at this point. Give examples. Who helps, without doing it for themselves, in this book? The entire series is all about manipulation and using people as pieces on a chess board to get what you want.
Matt is a known womanizer and the women enjoy it. Consensual. He isn't going around spanking random women. Have YOU read WoT????
And flirty slaps on the butt, or even threats to tan a friends behind, do NOT compare to the rapes in Martin's work. Stop trying to justify or equate this shit. It just makes you look like an idiot.
"Rand slaughtered hundreds of Shaido which described them as exploding and their flesh and blood spraying out. Sounds like some gore-porn, eh? " Difference is in the frequency. Martin has scenes like that in every book. Jordan doesn't. Jordan doesn't sell his books based upon those scenes. He isn't KNOWN for those scenes. That isn't what he focuses on. Martin does.
Saksham wrote: "I don't get it the major battles in WoT are Trollocs Vs Humans and there is hardly time to do anything but plan the next battle and I don't see how we can have a rape incident between Trollocs and ..."And that is why people like Will get old fast.
Martin isn't realistic. He just goes into detail on the shit that sells. T&A sells. Gore sells. He defends it by claiming it is 'realistic', and people like Will buy into it.
Stop commenting Shawn you're blowing up my notification feed with nothing important. You actually ruined my whole day. All 24 hours of it.
Sweeeeet. Let me randomly comment more. :)(you know you can always hit that nifty option to stop following the discussion right? okay then.)
The BOTH come from prefix HYPE meaning to excess. Holy Christ in dealing with a child. And I wasn't directly comparing spankings to rapings if you were paying attention to my words. I compared the amount of them occurring in each.
Sorry. Not consensual. But very weird yes.
They are both selling entertainment. The difference is I've read other modern adult fantasy series, and I know that they are just as, if not more gory and sexual. Read The First Law trilogy for instance or The Godspeaker trilogy by Karen Armstrong.
You seriously just want to derail the conversation. It is getting really tiring. You started this by claiming my hyperbole was hyping Martin. It doesn't work that way. Hence why I posted the definition of the word we are using. You then have retreated to this nonstop bullshit about the history/definition of Hype, which as a prefix is different than its definition as a word. You can't get over it. You should. I'm done commenting on it and will ignore your ignorance from this point on in regards to it.You were trying to sidetrack the conversation about sexual abuse or rape by derailing it onto your own exaggerations over the spankings in WoT.
How exactly are they not consensual?? do you know what that word means??? Prove that it ISN'T consensual, with examples, or let it go. Because while I will agree some of the spanking is odd at times, within the text of the story.. it works because of the personalities involved. And again, if you have never had your ass slapped by a girl or vice versus... I don't know what to tell you, beyond that it isn't this rare event.
"They are both selling entertainment. The difference is I've read other modern adult fantasy series, and I know that they are just as, if not more gory and sexual. Read The First Law trilogy for instance or The Godspeaker trilogy by Karen Armstrong."
Would just like to thank you for finally agreeing that nothing about Martin is special :)
Yes, you're hyperbole was hyping up GRRM, to excess over his peers. Ugh. Not continuing. You are right in everything you said congratulation.
There are a LOT of spankings in WoT though. Come on you can admit that. Even if they are consensual which only are on a few occasions.
I don't see the harm in repetitiveness of things that takes place in epic fantasies as I think that is the author's way of reminding us that we are reading about a world much different from ours in customs, practices and definitions of right and wrong. Even TLoTR has too many poems that don't advance the story one bit.Moreover I don't think one must be needlessly "realistic" in "fantasies". Specifically when the realistic sense ends where the goodwill of the antagonist is concerned. Consider for example that No one in all king's landing discovered the incestuous relationship between Jaime and Cersie except those who were their accomplices. Nobody even suspected seeing their children every day that they were bastards but Stannis And Renly get suspicious and on top of it Stannis who always does the "right" thing never tells his brother(even anonymously).
And Will could you please point out the instances where spanking in WoT is not done as a measure to discipline a disciple(I searched but all instances I found were of Cadsuane threatening to spank the people if they didn't obey her) and as I said repetitiveness is a way of reminding people that the place they are reading about is fictitious and different.
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and please. martin does plenty of it. you just either dont notice it or skim a lot. and yes.. repeating the same phrase over and over is exactly the same as tugging on a braid. it is also hilarious the people complain about that. at least Jordan had strong empowered women in his story instead of the pathetic one or two dimensional women martin writes.
martin gets too much credit for his shades of grey. in the first couple of books it was decent. but by book 3 and especially books 4 and 5... he is worse than any author i can name. i have read choose your own adventures as a kid that had better plotlines and depth of character.