A Song of Ice and Fire
discussion
Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice & Fire?
Asoiaf all the way. Wot was kinda boring. And plus Asoiaf differs from other epic fantasy books. The characters, conversations are so realistic that there wasnt even one time when i wanted to rolll my eyes because of naive conversation for example.
May I ask what makes ASOIAF series go downhill after book 3? (Bare in mind I'm only in book 3 at the moment)
Emma wrote: "May I ask what makes ASOIAF series go downhill after book 3? (Bare in mind I'm only in book 3 at the moment)"Martin separates his story geographically leaving no major character's POV in book 4 and all about the other half in book 5. People dislike not getting to know about Jon, Dany, Tyrion(There are others who are missing) in book 4 and when you want to know more about other characters in book 5 and all you get is a little at the end. If you read both books one after the other or better yet simultaneously it may not be a big problem(it wasn't for me atleast).
Also there are surprises in book 3 that weren't well liked by many fans.
The story basically goes no where. Book 4 and 5 happen approximately at the same time... and they are more travelogues than parts of a series with an actual plot. Nothing much happens... you don't get to see what happens with certain characters, he introduces new characters just to kill them off for really no true gain to the story, you seem some characters completely regress as characters (looking at you dragon lady).. Tyrion literally becomes a joke and makes me wish that he was the next on the chopping block. etc etc.
And it wasn't helped at all by the insanely long wait for each one. If they had a 2-3 year gap.. neither would have been that bad if there had been a 6th book to apologize for them... but we are still waiting on that 6th book with no end in sight, and its been like 15+ years since book 3 was published -- arguably the last decent book. If you read them now, right after 3, some people don't mind them as much.. but waiting for 5+ years for them makes them incredibly disappointing.
And @Abisola... if you didn't roll your eyes even once at all the "Hodor!" and "You know nothing Jon Snow" garbage... I can't take you seriously when you call the character conversations 'so realistic'.
I see. now I'm scared to read book 4 and 5 :/
Don't listen to the negative nancy. Just try them out yourself. Hodor clearly doesn't have a fully developed brain. Expecting him to have deep conversations is ridiculous.
And lovers often have a phrase they repeat to each other. Ygritte doesn't just say that phrase and she says it maybe 5 times. If you're looking for repetition, look no further than WoT.
No one asked for 'deep' conversations. But Hodor! Hodor! Hodor! is by no means realistic or interesting conversation, and is very much eye roll inducing.Someone did a search for the number of times Hodor appears in ASoIaF.. 533 times. Now.. even if you account for 2/3 of that being 'Hodor says, "Hodor!" and maybe other mentions of his name by other characters... that still leaves an insane amount of "Hodor!" in the books.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrone...
And according to the link I will post below.. She says it 19 times, not counting all the times he imagines it after she dies. That is a lot... considering how little she appears in the books.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-times-...
533 that's m awesome! Yeah a lot of those are just his name being mentioned. Bran was being carried by him through all of the books and also he was taking over his body so that makes sense. 19 is more than I thought but she was a big part of that whole book. Personally I don't think I could have dated her knowing it was that many times :)
Will wrote: "I won't point those out because I was referring to the instances where it WAS punishment. Mat on many occasions spanked Aes Sedai against their will as an odd punishment. Perrin spanked Faile sever..."When the hell did Mat spank an Aes Sedai? Or Perrin spanked Faile for that matter?
It certainly wasn't a common occurence even if the thing happened!
@Shawn...Repetitiveness & things that don't advance the story are a part of every epic fantasy.
I have read 8 series so far in the genre and each of them has repetitive scenes or dialogues.
When they were traveling together "under cover" of the traveling circus, Mat spanked Joline at least once. Garett Bryne spanked Siuane at least once that I remember as well along with two other aes sedai right before her. Hell even Egwene got in on the spanking action and spanked one of her tutors after she was raised to the seat. There was a crazy amount of spanking going on throughout the books.
And yes Perrin spanked Faile as well. She slapped him until he snapped. In that case, she "liked" it and was hitting him wanting him to snap back. But still, it was spanking. Aes Sedai go-to punishment amongst themselves was spanking too. Don't forget all the spanking Egwene went through during her punishments.
And yes Perrin spanked Faile as well. She slapped him until he snapped. In that case, she "liked" it and was hitting him wanting him to snap back. But still, it was spanking. Aes Sedai go-to punishment amongst themselves was spanking too. Don't forget all the spanking Egwene went through during her punishments.
Sorry for the duplicate and typos. I'm on my phone and the app doesn't allow you to delete or edit.
@Saksham I don't mind repetitive scenes or phrases. I was pointing out to Abisola that all books have them, and that claiming that there are no eyeroll worthy dialogue in ASoIaF is just silly.Also.. Will is right. There are scenes of spanking in WoT. They aren't as over the top as Will has claimed in the past.. but they are in there. There is no denying that.
I agree that there are scenes of spanking in WoT but what I meant was that while WoT has such scenes they aren't the common way of things nor the main focus of the author, not detailed either(As in ASoIAF) and in no way can they be called numerous. Also scenes like Perrin and Faile are essential for the character development of Perrin as Faile wants him to not hold too much of his anger within him. Martin himself said that he didn't want to use Sex & Violence as major issues in his story and believed them an important part of his characters life. I don't think its the best way but well he is the author and may do as he likes. Major issue for me is Martin's way of narration which leaves out important characters like Robb Stark's POV, the way he focuses on life in castles and of Lords and the lack of a proper and obvious hero who can be cheered by everyone but then it is a different series and is bound to have its own flavour. It is good, amazing probably better than all other epic fantasies have read but just not comparable to the magnificence of creation and diversity in WoT with a proper magic system, more defined history which in my opinion is the best there is.*Sorry about the earlier comment in which I claimed to have read 4 series in this genre have read 8 actually.
Agreed with your points except that the spanking isn't numerous. There are not only numerous, it's frequent. I don't believe a book went by without someone being spanked for punishment of some sort. And in some books it was extremely frequent. There was a whole book of Egwene being punished by spankings. That's one per book too many imo because adults spanking each other for punishment is not only really odd, but a completely unrealistic reaction. Can you imaging being spanked by another adult or peer because you said something they didn't care for?I honestly don't know how all this spanking got past so many people because it's so out of place in normal interactions. Have you ever witnessed two adults spanking each other as a real punishment and not part of a sexual act? It kind of follows the theme of relationships in the series being juvenile and unrealistic. It just wasn't Jordan's strong point. I like the series for the world he created and the way magic works, but typically find myself cringing at the characters and how they interact with each other, more specifically when it's a male and female interaction and especially when there's spanking. Also, I remember Mat threatening to spank Egwene and others on more than one occasions when he had that medallion that protected him from channeling.
Just my opinion but I found it all very odd.
Costagomez wrote: "Interesting question.WOT is just nice reading. Good vs evil with likable, near immortal, heroes. It's not high literature and if you start reading it at 30 or older you may not get into it at all..."
Good vs Evil is so dumb and cliche. The good characters are always seen as heroic and goody two shoes. And you just can't see things through the eyes of the evil characters. They are usually so one dimensional. You can't root for them. That's not how it works. Plus, death in Asoiaf is meaningful. Even minor character deaths have some punch to it. Characters don't come back. Except for two but there were major consequences. Plus, major deaths are good. It moves the story forward, and develops other characters. But when characters are brought back all the time, the death loses meaning. Like you don't feel sad anymore knowing they'll come back later. Just like superhero comics. Sure it's fantasy. But that doesn't mean a fantasy can't be realistic
get over GoT. Nothing but support characters in the overall story have died. The two 'heroes' are still alive and off doing stupid miraculous things.
Martin just fools you into thinking people like Ned are the main character... and they arent.
so no. Martin doesn't kill anyone important. He just makes you think they are important. or he adds in random people and fluffs his bloated story even more just so he can kill them to keep his reputation as an author that kills people.
It is a joke. it isn't special. Especially when he does it so much. it is boring at this point. and all he has achieved is making his audience not grow attached to any character.
How can you even say that when the books and tv show are at an all time high directly because of the fact that people are attached to these very realistic and deeply drawn out characters.It's laughable you would call the character's that die as not important, considering they are generally kings, queens, princes, Lord's of important Houses, etc.
He even kills off really detailed and complex characters like the Hound, who wasn't important on a political level, but had a complex psychology to his motives and also had the "badass" side to him that cheap writers will often refuse to kill off.
You're arguments are tired, biased, and not based on the story that is actually being told.
Well first, I don't know why every comparison has to be an emotionally charged battle. With that said, ASOIAF is better in my opinion. Though I have to admit I haven't completely finished WoT.It was unnecessarily long. And Brandon Sanderson, in typical Sanderson form, dragged out a simple story resolution in about 2000 pages too many, making it worse. In ASOIAF, I really never got the impression that the section I was reading wasn't going anywhere at all It seems like every chapter is a puzzle piece that fits together, rather than just rambling political dialog (where at the end of the book you recall a section and think "wtf was the point of that again?").
That's my 2 cents. But it's entirely possible for two sagas to be good and different without one being better than the other.
ironicinori wrote: "I really never got the impression that the section I was reading wasn't going anywhere at all It seems like every chapter is a puzzle piece that fits together, rather than just rambling political dialog (where at the end of the book you recall a section and think "wtf was the point of that again?")."That's funny. The last two entire books of Martin feel exactly like that to me. Characters wander about more or less aimlessly, nothing really happens compared to how many wasted pages there are. Jordan, for me, could have been quicker, but never felt like the author was trying to stretch it out for more books just to make money the way that ASOFAI does. When Jordan went on too long, it always felt like a side effect of his deep vision of the world he was creating.
On the other hand, I'm not sure I've ever felt as disrespected by an author as Martin consistently makes me feel. He seems to waste the readers' time as a matter of principle. That said, there were three good books out of it and that's more than most fantasy can boast.
The greater tragedy is probably that pretty much all of fantasy has been reduced to just a series of Tolkien re-tellings. Not that it's all the authors' fault. Usually, if something isn't aping Tolkien, everyone will declare that it doesn't count as fantasy at all. Which is why we keep getting the same story over and over again in a genre where you are declared revolutionary if you make the Mordor stand-in icy instead of fiery and the villains ice-monsters instead of fire-monsters.
Will wrote: "How can you even say that when the books and tv show are at an all time high I would argue that the books are far from an all time high.. seeing as he hasn't produced a ASoIaF book in going on 6 years.
And the shows.. definitely have a large following.. for the same reasons that the Saw series has a large following. GorePorn. With nudity. Lots of it. Even more so than the books at times.
Just because it is popular doesn't mean it is good. We have gone over this before Will ;)
And just because someone is important in the world of the story.. doesn't mean that they are important to the story.
Obi Wan is a side character. He dies. Is he important? hell yes. In a lot of ways. But in episode 4, he is a side character.
The important characters in ASoIaF, the main characters, have just been surrounded by bloated fluff.. dozens of PoVs that could have been edited out and improved the story in a multitude of ways. We don't need to know EVERY FUCKING SINGLE THING some random person does. I am half amazed Martin doesn't add in bowel movements.
And yes, he has killed off some interesting characters. But the hound was a side character. He adds depth to the world. That is the job of a side character. But killing off side characters, or even main characters is far from unique, nor special, nor does it make him a good author.
Nice personal attacks though Will. Glad to see you haven't changed. (and I love how you claim I am biased when I make nothing from either series, and duh I am going to argue from my point of view, just like you are. So claiming bias is just flat out stupid.)
ironicinori wrote: "Well first, I don't know why every comparison has to be an emotionally charged battle."
That is just Will... and I don't mind a good argument so it is fun poking the grumpy bear. ;) Probably makes me just as bad.. but meh.
WoT definitely is long. Though to be fair to it, so is Martin's series. And both have a lot of crap a good editor should have removed. I also didn't mind more books.. there was a ton going on and it was cool to see it all come together.
I will also just point out that it took about 22 years for Jordan to finish his 14 book series. That includes a 4 year gap during which he died and Sanderson took over to continue writing it. Martin on the other hand.. has finished 5 books... in 20 years. and of them, 2 were complete garbage. (like literally any book in the WoT series is better than 4 or 5 in ASoIaF)
In ASOIAF, I really never got the impression that the section I was reading wasn't going anywhere at all It seems like every chapter is a puzzle piece that fits together, rather than just rambling political dialog (where at the end of the book you recall a section and think "wtf was the point of that again?").
While I agree books 1-3 were good... Books 4 and 5 were nothing but this... so 2 of the 5 books Martin has written are the thing you don't like...
And 'typical sanderson form' based on the majority of his writing is not to drag things out. Stormlight is probably the most inflated. If anything, Jordan was ridiculous in thinking he was going to finish all of that in 1 book.. just like Martin is full of shit if he thinks he is going wrap everything up in 2 more books.
Daniel wrote: "On the other hand, I'm not sure I've ever felt as disrespected by an author as Martin consistently makes me feel. He seems to waste the readers' time as a matter of principle. "
Exactly. When he claims he can't write anywhere but home... yet constantly goes to cons.. or is on set for a show that shouldn't have been made until the books were done.. and it takes 5+ years to finish a book.. it's just a joke. At least with Jordan.. you got books regularly and if some weren't as awesome as the others.. you didn't have to wait forever for the next.
The greater tragedy is probably that pretty much all of fantasy has been reduced to just a series of Tolkien re-tellings.
Sometimes I think that too.. but there is a lot of great fantasy out there. Sanderson is fantastic. Lots of authors self publishing on the kindle platform are enjoyable. The main problem is that there are only soooo many stories to tell. Lots of ways to tell them and dress them up.. but at the end of the day.. it isn't ever going to be that unique.
I actually try to read some science fiction between fantasy novels because it helps keep things fresh.
Shawn wrote: "Will wrote: "How can you even say that when the books and tv show are at an all time high I would argue that the books are far from an all time high.. seeing as he hasn't produced a ASoIaF book i..."
Well if the character effects the story, I'd call him or her an important, Ned effected the story hugely considering he sparked the whole war. Robb is important because he is who rallied the North to fight for their independence, Caitlyn is important since she is practically the advisor in all the actions of the North. And I can go on forever about this. You continuously state that the story in books 4 and 5 are such garbage and they're skippable. Well they aren't. It's the calm before the storm. The first book was the same. Nothing really happened, but all of those events still effected the story hugely. Watch. When WoW comes out, everything from that "garbage story" will come together and make huge things happen.
I've only read Asoiaf, but I definitely want to start reading WoT. I wanted to see what people thought was better. I see it is pretty split. I love Asoiaf so far. But I keep hearing all these dumb things, such as complaints that this book is too repetive and that book was more repetive. Sounds like they are both pretty freaking repetive. But I don't care. When it comes to words("Hodor"), phrases("You know nothing, Jon Snow"), and actions it appears these are just charming habits. Pulling hair and patting out dresses are also habits. It adds to characters and sometimes makes them stand out.
D'Mitri wrote: "Watch. When WoW comes out, everything from that "garbage story" will come together and make huge things happen. "Even if that ends up true (which is doubtful as even the tv series producers are changing all sorts of things they see as poor storytelling and the public, loving the show, seem to agree), it still will not excuse taking 1800 pages of nothing in order to hopefully make something cool happen after yet another 800 pages.
I don't say that to be argumentative, but just that it is absolutely a failing of the writer to not be able to get anywhere in nearly 2000 pages. No amount of theoretical set up for stuff later really changes that.
If he does pull off something really awesome later that somehow makes sense of 500 pages of Tyrion walking around asking where whores go while slobbering drunk or Brienne's endless wandering around trying to prove she's tough while being a girl, (or any of the other endless plots that go nowhere and do nothing) it will not be proof of good planning. It will be proof that Martin finally started writing for real again after wasting readers' time. If he finds some mechanism to make it look intentional, it will only be a sign that he is trying to cover for that fact.
There simply is no good excuse for wasting thousands of pages on nothing happening. At this point, a full 40% of the books he's written for the series consist of almost entirely pointless fluff.
Don't get me wrong, I read the books and I watch the series. I enjoy it. I think almost every change HBO has made has been a dramatic improvement on the story, so I'll probably keep watching that. I also acknowledge that it's certainly easier for HBO to come along and find ways to improve on something that is already written. Its always easier to improve something than it is to create it. But that doesn't mean that we should pretend the original was perfect or refuse to acknowledge clear failings on the author's part (like wasting readers' time for 40% of your entire story so far).
Shawn wrote: "The main problem is that there are only soooo many stories to tell. Lots of ways to tell them and dress them up.. but at the end of the day.. it isn't ever going to be that unique."Honestly, I think this is an illusion formed by the fact that Tolkien worshipers have taken over the industry and don't allow anyone to write anything that's not more or less the same story. There are tons of stories not told that would work very well in fantasy, but those stories don't get the big publishers and big critics and bloggers and so on to talk about them or they are dismissed as "not being real fantasy" and the evidence cited is always a list of ways the story differs from Tolkien.
For example, Titus Groan (Gormenghast #1) is considered a masterpiece by the vast majority of people who read it. The only people who don't like it list complaints that are (surprise!) a list of ways in which the book is not telling the same story as LOTR.
It's roughly the same age as Tolkien and yet presents a radically different idea of fantasy and a completely different approach to the genre of fantasy. I'm not saying every fantasy series should impersonate that series, but I am saying that it would be good if Fantasy was allowed to tell more than just the same story over and over with relatively minor tweaks the way Martin and Jordan are. I say that being a fan of both those series, by the way.
There's no shortage of stories to tell. Only a shortage of people reading those stories. It's had the net effect of turning the entire genre into just fan fiction. A lot of which I have read and enjoyed, but that doesn't change anything.
Fantasy needs it's own version of Neuromancer which reminded people that every science fiction story didn't have to be Dune or Dune lite anymore.
D'Mitri wrote: "When it comes to words("Hodor"), phrases("You know nothing, Jon Snow"), and actions it appears these are just charming habits. Pulling hair and patting out dresses are also habits. It adds to characters and sometimes makes them stand out. "I agree, except when you hand them out to half the characters in the story, it stops being a charming character quirk and starts being an obvious attempt at short-cutting the process of actual character creation.
I know I keep saying things that are critical, but I actually think you'll probably love both series. They both have plenty of flaws (that happens to be what this part of this thread has ended up discussing), but they both also have a ton going for them and more than just a little to love. That's my opinion, anyway.
Shawn, I did not once attack you. I'm attacking your arguments. I'm sure I'll find time to respond to the rest, but you've never been able to provide me with actual examples for your complaints.And lol at goreporn! I can't believe a show would actually show nudity and sex inside of brothels! How unrealistic!
And I also will disagree with those saying nothing happens in the books for long periods of time. All the character's movements have been shown to be vital to the plot if you follow them carefully.
Will wrote: "And I also will disagree with those saying nothing happens in the books for long periods of time. All the character's movements have been shown to be vital to the plot if you follow them carefully. "I don't agree that anything is accomplished by Tyrion wandering around aimlessly for hundreds of pages that could not have been accomplished dramatically quicker by an author who wasn't trying to stretch out his "big break" into as many books as possible. And his is only one example out of many.
I've followed the plots after book three carefully and found them self-indulgent and wasteful, and it seems clear to me that it's intentional. I don't mean that literally nothing happens, just that the whole last two books could have made one solid 400 page book and come out better for it. But I know others feel differently.
Had the series started with these stories in books four and five, it almost certainly would not have survived. It is only by the hope of those dreaming that Martin will write real stories again that they continue.
Will wrote: "SAnd lol at goreporn! I can't believe a show would actually show nudity and sex inside of brothels! How unrealistic!"I agree that he's making too big of a deal out of it, but I think it would be insincere to suggest the show does not use gore, violence, and nudity as a major marketing draw for the show. I mean, if a new word has to be coined for how much you use sex and violence as a marketing trick to get people to watch the rest of the story, then you've probably already given up the high ground on that particular issue. The nudity and violence isn't there so it can be "more real", it's there so that people will tune in to see boobies. I'm pretty sure the executive producers have even said as much, under the "spoon full of sugar" theory. To their credit, it has worked.
But I totally get why some people would find that to be a poor reason for a series to be so highly touted or successful even though it's virtually certain that without it, the tv series would not be doing so well at all and probably would have failed altogether since people may not have watched it long enough to get to know the characters or care about the other stories.
Like politics, the ultimate issue always ends up being not the candidates but the people who choose to elect them. A person could attack the show-runners for cynically taking advantage of that, but the startling truth is that they were right that it would attract people. If one objects, the real culprits are the people who will only watch a show if it has those things, often while objecting to the very reasons they have chosen to watch it. Ours is species that loves it's self-delusion.
Overall, like I said, I like the books and the TV series. I just don't like feeling that an author is intentionally wasting my time in an effort to prolong the story so he can make more books and, consequently, more money.
If his goal was to sell more books by meandering with the plot, that's not only a bad marketing idea, but Martin isn't doing a very good job of it. I mean only 5 books after 25 years of writing isn't in theory the way to sell a ton of books.I also don't think he meanders on purpose, I just think because he has hundreds of characters, sometimes they get stuck for a bit. Not so much an indication of bad writing so much as grrm sometimes being overwhelmed by the size of his epic and when and where he needs the essential character's plot lines to cross.
His fans won't mind at all because it allows us to further explore the world. I don't mind that.
WoT is much worse in that regard imo.
The show they definitely use nudity and violence as marketing, but they are just showing what's already in the books. The books are much more graphic with sex and violence. And if you notice as the show goes along, there has been less nudity and fewer brothel scenes. You bet they do it for realism. Doesn't mean they don't take advantage of marketing strategies, but the whole reason it's there is bc it's in the books, and it's on the books bc the Middle Ages were notoriously full of sex, violence, raping, pillaging, etc.
Saksham wrote: "I don't see the harm in repetitiveness of things that takes place in epic fantasies as I think that is the author's way of reminding us that we are reading about a world much different from ours in..."In Asoiaf there really is no major antagonist, you can really root for whoever. You like the Starks? Root for the Starks. Like Stannis? Root for him. Like the Lannister? Go ahead and root for them. This makes the story more complex and makes the reader think who they want to win. Some want dany to sit on the iron throne. Others hate her guts. That's just the way it is. Good vs Evil isn't complex. The readers automatically know who to root for. That's not how people work. Everyone has different intentions, different ideas, and goals. But for some reason, there's only 2 factions. Why are all the orcs and goblins always evil? Because they look evil? Would it not make sense for some to side with the heroes, do they not have minds of their own?
Daniel wrote: "D'Mitri wrote: "Watch. When WoW comes out, everything from that "garbage story" will come together and make huge things happen. "Even if that ends up true (which is doubtful as even the tv series..."
Well one thing is certain, what they did to Stannis was dumb. They made him look oh so evil. Ooooooooo, he doesn't smile, let's burn his daughter and make him look so evil. Many, including me, really liked Stannis, I don't like what they did at all. And Dorne's story was dumbed down too
Stannis turned out that way because he believed in Melisandre and the Lord of Light and was influenced by that belief. Religion can cause good people to do some terrible things.
Will wrote: "If his goal was to sell more books by meandering with the plot, that's not only a bad marketing idea, but Martin isn't doing a very good job of it."If the series is 3 books long and he sells a million copies of each book in the series, he sells a total of 3 million books. If the series is 7 books long, even with the same average sales per book (which is pretty standard), he sells more than twice as many books. So, a person who was aware that this was their big shot, could quite naturally decide to turn a 2 book story into 4 or 4 into 6 and so on because it makes them so much more money.
The incentive to do so is very strong.
Will wrote: "His fans won't mind at all because it allows us to further explore the world. I don't mind that. "
I'm a fan and I mind and so do many, many others. You're under no obligation to mind, but it doesn't mean those that do are wrong to mind. It just means different things are important to us.
Will wrote: "WoT is much worse in that regard imo."
I know that is something that bothers some people about him, but it just never matched my personal experience. I never felt WoT was wasting time at all, even if the plot did get bogged down developing cultures (I'm looking at you, Shadow Rising!), it never felt poorly done or intentional. With Martin, it comes across to me as totally pervasive and intentional. But that really just shows the subjective nature of the thing.
I am bothered when Martin does it, but not, apparently, when Jordan does it. You are bothered when Jordan does it, but not, apparently, when Martin does it. Nothing wrong with that.
D'Mitri wrote: "Well one thing is certain, what they did to Stannis was dumb. They made him look oh so evil."I see what you're saying, but I was personally more bothered by the whitewashing of the Tyrion story because it ends up changing his motivation for virtually everything that follows. I guess we'll see what they do with it.
Agreed. I just don't think it's intentional for him based on the interviews I've heard. He may even pass away before he finishes. At this rate he's years away from completing and isn't in the best of health. As far as stretching the material out, I could see that if he split the books up more, but when he's been writing more, he just lengthens the book he's writing so he isn't breaking it up into more books.
Also keep in mind he knows who is still standing in the end and where they are going to be, and after getting into the details for several books, the logistics of getting his characters where he wants them to end up can sometimes take longer than I think even GRRM wishes.
He also started the series after he was restricted writing in TV and decided he was going to write a book as epic as he could make it with as many characters as he could stuff into it, since the historical books that influenced him also has lots and lots of characters.
And you KNOW he wishes the books could be completed before the show, but that's already out the window. So I think his prolonged writing is more of a product of him trying to get his characters out of the situations they kind themselves in. Dany's story was a bit stuck in the mud too, but with recent developments in season 6, it's actually starting to make a lot more sense as to why her story seemed to be dragging a bit. Also keep in mind GRRM wants to dragons to have time to get really big.
Will wrote: "And you KNOW he wishes the books could be completed before the show, but that's already out the window."Totally agree. I think he was so confident when writing four and five that he was stretching the story out. By the way, those books are an exact example of what we're talking about. It was originally one book that grew too long and so was turned into two. That's why they take place at roughly the same time. Rather than editing it down like a not-famous author would be forced to do, he just added another book.
Now, though, I think he has performance anxiety resulting in writer's block. People praise him and expect huge things from him but complain virtually no matter what he ends up choosing, so it must be very frustrating. Especially since he is forced to deal with this much more directly than previous fantasy authors since he goes to so many cons and there are so many more and they are so much bigger than they used to be. The TV show has also added a great deal more fans which translates to more people who dislike outcome x.
The sad part is that regardless of what outcome X is, some people will hate it and complain loudly, and often directly to his face. I can understand why that makes writing harder and big choices particularly difficult to make.
Not that he's ever admitted as much, but anyone who is taking this long has writer's block. James Joyce wrote Finnegan's Wake in only seven years and it's one of the most carefully researched and difficult works of fiction ever created. What Martin is writing has a substantially lower bar in terms of how much research and thought and layers need to be put into it.
It might be he's not sure how to get where he's going or it might be that he just can't "see it" in his head yet, but whatever it is, it's some kind of writer's block. That's really the only thing that makes sense at this point, and it has the added benefit of explaining everything.
Well if the character effects the story, I'd call him or her an importantThen every character in every book is important. That isn't how it works though.
Ned effected the story hugely considering he sparked the whole war
But he didn't. The lannisters did. With a variety of actions. He just caught them.
And I can go on forever about this.
Just because a character has a place in the story.. doesn't mean they are the focus of the story. Nor does it make them important. Do you understand the difference between main characters and side characters? Side characters can be 'important' without being Important. There is a difference.
You continuously state that the story in books 4 and 5 are such garbage and they're skippable. Well they aren't.
You could pull out probably 3 chapters tops from each book, edit them together and have a nice novella that would advance the story as much as both of those pieces of shit did at almost 2k pages and 10+ years.
When WoW comes out, everything from that "garbage story" will come together and make huge things happen.
People said the same with 4.. then more so with 5... and now everyone is banking on 6 to redeem the series. It is no wonder Martin can't write with that kind of pressure.
It adds to characters and sometimes makes them stand out.
Except it doesn't... when all the characters do some form of it. It just gets old.
There simply is no good excuse for wasting thousands of pages on nothing happening. At this point, a full 40% of the books he's written for the series consist of almost entirely pointless fluff.
Exactly. Book 4 and 5 are bloated garbage that should have been heavily edited.
If as Will states, that he just writes and his characters get into things... all the more reason to have a better outline of his story and a better editor.
Honestly, I think this is an illusion formed by the fact that Tolkien worshipers have taken over the industry and don't allow anyone to write anything that's not more or less the same story.
Has nothing to do with Tolkien. Most people that study literature agree to some extent that there are basic story archtypes. They can be dressed up in a multitude of ways.. but the story will always boil down to some basic form.
Fantasy is fine as it is. There are a ton of great authors out there. The media picks up on ones like GRRM that can just be easily made for TV. They are talking about WoT finally going to TV.. and it scares me. There are a LOT more fantasy elements to WoT than GoT and I just don't see them coming across visually well. (especially the one power) But that is another conversation.
Will wrote: "You're arguments are tired, biased, and not based on the story that is actually being told."
That is a personal attack.. if a mild one. It didn't address any points, and up until that point your post was a decent reply. I would also easily be able to turn it around and say the same to you.
I can't believe a show would actually show nudity and sex inside of brothels! How unrealistic!
No one said that it was a bad thing. (though I would say that the overabundant nature of it and adding scenes that were 100% not in the book make it used just to get ratings). But it does explain why you think it is doing so well. Sex sells. So if you want to determine it is good based solely upon financials.. you are welcome to. I am looking at other things.. and if you look past the OMG he killed ANOTHER person or oooooh booobies!.. at this point the series is a joke. a very long drawn out joke.
All the character's movements have been shown to be vital to the plot if you follow them carefully.
yeah? even that guy that is introduced and travels just so he can get eaten by a dragon?? oh yeah.. totally necessary for the story.
To be blunt... the entire first 5 books could have been told as flash backs, and the real story will start being told now. As it already has on the show. (gotta love the internet for spoilers lol) He could have kept the entire thing down to 3 solid books... instead of the 5+ book series he is trying to keep afloat now.
In Asoiaf there really is no major antagonist, you can really root for whoever.
Umm.. not really.. and it makes me think you haven't read the books at all.
Good vs Evil isn't complex
WoT isn't quite so good vs evil that it has no complexity to it. And since you haven't read it...
Martin hasn't even gotten to the real story... which is why there is so much assumed complexity to it. He has taken us on a pointless adventure that will lead us to the real story if he ever gets around to writing it. All of the crap so far could have been summed up in a few chapters and a few flash backs. So yeah.. you can root for whoever at this point because none of them matter.
Why are all the orcs and goblins always evil?
Plenty of stories out there that change things up.
And you KNOW he wishes the books could be completed before the show, but that's already out the window.
He had plenty of time to finish if he really wanted to. Instead... he went to cons.
Will saying lots of stuff to defend GRRM
At the end of the day you are a Martin Apologist. He can't do wrong in your eyes. you defend everything he does. Take a step back man.
I think he has performance anxiety resulting in writer's block.
Definitely agree with this.
Daniel wrote: "I think he was so confident when writing four and five that he was stretching the story out. By the way, those books are an exact example of what we're talking about. It was originally one book that grew too long and so was turned into two. That's why they take place at roughly the same time. Rather than editing it down like a not-famous author would be forced to do, he just added another book."That's true. They are exactly parallel story lines so you're right. I just don't think he is doing it on purpose or maliciously for money.
Shawn wrote: "That is a personal attack."
Still not a personal attack.
" All of the crap so far could have been summed up in a few chapters and a few flash backs. So yeah.. you can root for whoever at this point because none of them matter."
This is puzzling to me. Are we reading the same things? All of these events are part of the story. This rich history that was envisioned set up the current story, and now we are going along a plot that is leading to an ending. You don't think Jon and Dany's plotlines have been vital to the story so far? Or Tyrions?
Absolutely incredible.
As to the discussion about whether the characters that die are important or not, some aren't and some are. There have been some very important characters that have died. Many had direct actions that carried the plot. A recent one was (spoiler) The Hound. Without him Arya would have died in the Red Wedding as well and wouldn't be training as a Faceless Man right now.
Kal Drogo helped Dany become the fierce warrior she is. Etc ad nauseum. These characters and the others not mentioned generally had a lot of "stage" time, and often directly ushered the plot into the direction it has always been headed.
Also, I don't think the show's divergence from the books has so much to do with the producers knowing how to make better plotlines, as it has to do with the fact that there are just too many characters in the book to fit into a TV show, so some are killed or left out that are still alive and active in the books, and that in turn changes some of the plot dynamic. There is way more going on in the books, and a lot more characters.I think GRRM has a problem with his continually adding more and more characters. That's why it's taking him so long to finish this. It's like he can't help himself. I remember several new, fairly important characters and even new POVs introduced just in the last book.
All of these events are part of the story. This rich history that was envisioned set up the current story, and now we are going along a plot that is leading to an ending.I think a stronger series could have been created with a focused story that doesn't ramble all over the place.
Millions of stories have been written that don't go into excruciating detail of the events that lead up to where the story begins.
I am not saying that there aren't things that were enjoyable to read and discover. But the 'real' story is only starting to begin.
It wouldn't be impossible to imagine a series that starts with Jon on the wall under siege, and Dany crossing the sea to come.. and all that is to come.. and just getting flash backs to what happened previously.
I think it would be a far stronger book series without all the rambling divergent paths that have only stalled his writing.
But as Daniel said.. it is always easier to improve after the fact.
It is what it is. And Martin has written some great stuff in the ASoIaF series... it is just sad that the latest two books were utter garbage.. and he doesn't seem to be any closer to finishing WoW.
Also.. again.. You are talking about important actions.. which could be handled in other ways. A side character or side event is just there to help the main characters/main story get where they need to be. It is their entire point. But that doesn't mean that they are Important with a capital I in and of themselves to the main story.
there are just too many characters in the book to fit into a TV show,
I would say there are also too many to fit nicely into a book series.
I think GRRM has a problem with his continually adding more and more characters.
Definitely agree. And it is why he needs a better editor who will stand up to him. At some point he just needs to focus. Both on his writing and within his story.
I agree mostly, but also keep in mind, the "real" story has been there all along, GRRM just likes to break conventions for you to see through to it. And I don't think flashbacks are a good idea. They are usually seen as a crutch for writers. In fact, I think he goes out of his way to exclude flashbacks of any kind. Based on his initial outline, a lot of these deaths were necessary, especially for the realism he is trying to convey in a world like the Middle Ages with all of the wars and killing going on. It's kind of the whole point.
I did want to mention, if you want actual "gore-porn," watch Spartacus: Blood and Sand. That's basically softcore porn alongside of incredibly hyperbolic violence.
If that term needed to be invented for anything at all, then it should have been invented for that show.
I know.. the real story has been there/is there.. but its been buried in garbage the last two books lol. And breaking conventions in ways that don't improve anything... doesn't help him.
Him killing people every book is his personal crutch. Flashbacks, used well, can do wonders.
The deaths still could have happened. All of it could have. We just wouldn't have had to slog through each excruciating detail of it. The parts that were awesome? Could have been recounted so that they really were awesome and not just the highs buried among a lot.. a multitude.. of lows or so sos.
Every time someone mentions realism in relation to a book about dragons... I just smirk and roll my eyes. It is pretty much stupid. Not aiming that at you Will. But think about it for a second. Also.. It is extremely rare for a country to destabilize itself to such extremes like Martin has them doing. Because then everyone dies. He mentions a LOT about what the nobles eat.. and never mentions how the entire rest of the kingdoms are staying alive. The realism is very very cherry picked. (and not saying that is necessarily a bad thing or unrealistic to expect... but it is what it is.. and people gladly ignore it when it fits their expectations or wants.)
Oh no thanks. seen enough of the ads for that. If I want porn I just watch it. lol Martin isn't that far away from Spartacus though. Not at the same level.. but pretty close. It just also has desperate housewives and Scandal mixed in.
I don't find realism within fantasy silly at all just as I don't find realism in any genre of fiction silly. In fact, the main idea behind the books for GRRM was to instill more realism within fantasy; more specifically, characters that were not purely good or purely evil, but characters that fall under a wide spectrum of morality. GRRM definitely cares more about going into detail with interesting characters than he does with making an interesting plot along the way. I've always been less interested in plot than characters, though. That's just what I like personally.
Also, GRRM does describe how the rest of the world eats, and it's barely and with whatever scraps they can manage.
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There are entire blogs on the internet that talk about the strange amount of spanking so not sure how you all missed it.