Looking for a recomendation.

[[deleted user]]

This thread is being opened so members can ask for recommendations, and I thought I'd get the ball rolling.

Lately I've been hearing Edgar Allan Poe's name being mentioned a lot. I've intended to read his work for years, but for usually I wait for personal recommendations from friends before I begin reading new authors. Unfortunately none of my friends have read his work.

Have any of you read his work? Is there a work of his that you would recommend?

I would be more interested in his stories than his poems.

Thanking you all in advance. :)

[Mae]

His short stories are truly amazing, but some poems are a must read. The Raven poem you must read. Also you can find collections of his stories. The Tell Tale Heart is my favorite, and it is usually found in collections of his work. A brilliant, scary author.

[[deleted user]]

Thanks, Mae. :)

I just ordered Collected tales and poems of Edgar Allan Poe. It has both, The Tell-Tale Heart and The Raven, so I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it.

Thanks, a million. :)

[Susan]

"The Tell Tale Heart" is one of my favorite stories ever. I read it when I was 13 or 14 and had nightmares forever. Let us know what you think. Adults have an entire different viewpoint than teens. My bood club reads a "classic" book every six months. We just read "The Scarlet Letter" and it was amazing how different our views were 40 years later.

[Susan]

I just read in "People" magazine that Jeffrey Eugendies, author of "Middlesex" said his favorite book right was "Foster" by Claire Keegan, an Irish author. Has anyone heard of her or read any of her books?

[[deleted user]]

Declan, I have read Poe a good deal and can recommend the work with one proviso. One has to like the Gothic. It is not contemporary and many of the values and ideas expressed seem rather distant and remote for a modern reader. If you like to gaze at a far away world of the past, then dive in. It's worth the trip. There is a tendency to think that so called 'classics' are the place to seek worth and entertainment. Might I suggest that there are contemporary writers, new writers even that are worthy of consideration. Hint, hint.
No I am not being so bold as to suggest my own work. That's truly not why I'm here.
How about this: an old school friend of mine, Brian Keenan, has a novel based on the life of the legendary Irish harpist: Turlough O'Carolan B0052Z3G7M. It's worth a look.
davidrory

[Mae]

Ohhhh Foster is an amazing little book!!!! That is all I have read of hers. Worth reading!!

[[deleted user]]

Susan wrote: ""The Tell Tale Heart" is one of my favorite stories ever. I read it when I was 13 or 14 and had nightmares forever. Let us know what you think. Adults have an entire different viewpoint than teens...."

Don't worry, Susan. The second I've finished it, I'll be straight back here to give my tuppence worth. I'm actually really looking forward to it.

David Rory wrote: "Declan, I have read Poe a good deal and can recommend the work with one proviso. One has to like the Gothic. It is not contemporary and many of the values and ideas expressed seem rather distant an..."

DavidR, I'm intent on reading EAP because of his influence on modern horror and suspense writers. Lately, I've heard his name mentioned frequently in everything from crime serials to sci-fi movies. I can't stay away from his work, any longer. I'm not afraid of venturing outside of modern literature.

[Mae]

Proud of you Declan.... we need to go back to the classics every now and then. Particularly when sometimes modern literature can be so derivative. We need to know, in order to appreciate the new that is really new and good. Otherwise, we are the fools of marketing. Knowledge is power--is it no that why we read? ( for the most part anyway)

[[deleted user]]

Mae wrote: "Proud of you Declan.... we need to go back to the classics every now and then. Particularly when sometimes modern literature can be so derivative. We need to know, in order to appreciate the new..."

True originals are hard to find....... Unless you look backwards in time. I'm sure that most writers want to be original, but it must be difficult when there are so many great writers out there. If you read, you're being influenced. I don't envy anyone who's trying to come up with an original piece of writing.It can't be easy.

[Mae]

I understand, but that is where the true genius lies. Being influenced is not a bad thing, a derivative piece, is something entirely different. I believe, there are actually some really good true originals out there. When you read a lot, you know they are out there. As a matter of fact I have been blown away, by contemporary Irish authors. There is a surprising amount of fantastic stuff. There is quite a bit of African American authors that have actually achieved true originals- Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou and her poetry. There is Faulkner in the American South... Borges, Vargas LLosas and Gabriel Garcia Marquez (although some claim he is strongly influenced by Faulkner). I could go on. Oh I have to mention Muriel Barbery with The elegance of the Hedgehog....

[Mae]

It is more than being original. It is about being honest. If you are writing the story that is in your heart and brain, the one that grows from within... influences have to reveal themselves. But in a true original the influence will not affect the honesty of a true work. The artistry of the writing the rhythm, the musicality of the words... that in itself is what defines the original. For which the influence is just the reality of sharing a common humanity and literature world.

[[deleted user]]

I don't entirely agree with you, Mae. I come across work that's stylistically original for more often than I come across original stories. The bones of the plot, the strength of the characters and the motivations that lead to the climax (hopefully a worthy one) are what I'm after. Often this can be done by offering a fresh aspect on an already familiar subject, but even if a writer can conjure up an idea it may not be executed well.

I have actually read William Faulkner's As I Lay Dying, and if I'm honest I was disappointed. I found his characters flat and two dimensional, and the plot slow and heavy footed. I actually read it because I heard he was a big influence on Cormac McCarthy. I can see the influence but I think McCarthy has totally surpassed him. I can only conclude that Faulkner's work was edgy and pushed the envelope when it was published. Whatever impact it used to have has been lost.

[Susan]

Declan wrote: "I don't entirely agree with you, Mae. I come across work that's stylistically original for more often than I come across original stories. The bones of the plot, the strength of the characters and ..."

Faulkner is an acquired taste, one I've never acquired. I agree with you on "As I Lay Dying". It left me cold.

[Susan]

Mae wrote: "Ohhhh Foster is an amazing little book!!!! That is all I have read of hers. Worth reading!!"

Can you give me some info on it. It's not on Amazon so
I'd have to order it from one their registered sellers. I want to make sure it's worth it.

[Sarah]

Declan wrote: "Thanks, Mae. :)

I just ordered Collected tales and poems of Edgar Allan Poe. It has both, The Tell-Tale Heart and The Raven, so I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it.

Thanks, a million. :)"

I'm a bit late to the party (as always) but I have to second Mae's suggestions here. I read both of those when I was about 8 and I swear, Tell Tale Heart gave me nightmares for years--I still yearn to write an original execution of that memorable idea (or to incorporate it into a story of my own) because it's left such an indelible mark on my memory.

Poe had a way with words, more than ideas (referring to your later remarks on Faulker, Declan) but Tell Tale Heart struck me at a time when I was also reading the original version of Ichabod Crane's "Headless Horseman" story and I guess I just saw a synchronicity. To be honest, given my mother also pushed Dickens a lot at that same time in my life (and I HATED Dickens, sooooo *yawn* BAD a writer! but then Dickens got paid by the word so the more words--good, bad or otherwise--the better for his grocery bills!) I had some horrifying ideas about the UK. Oh and then came Oliver! Yeah, my childhood was filled with really awful images of terrible old England. I guess it was part of my Yankee Colonialism indoctrination (LOL)

Regarding the Faulkner comments, Declan, I couldn't agree more. I keep wanting to read Cormac McCarthy simply because his stories are so popular but I'd already discovered how BORING Faulkner was back in my teenage years. I'm often tempted to say things like you did but refrain from doing so in public because I'm a coward when it comes to "putting down the classics." I wouldn't want to get anyone up in arms over it, so I applaud you on your courage to speak the truth here. And I second it ;-)

-sry

[Sarah]

Declan wrote "True originals are hard to find...."

I can think of one, but she is decidedly NOT a literary fiction author and although she's quite popular in the UK, I'm sure she's never ever written anything Irish or set in Ireland or having to do with Irish history. I'm speaking of Lois McMaster Bujold and I specifically am thinking of her Vorkosigan series. It's science fiction--speculative fiction at its best--and she has some truly amazing things going on in some of those books.

She plucked one piece of technology out of her imagination--something called the uterine replicator, a means of separating the gestation of the human offspring from the woman's body--and wrote three separate novels centered around three separate cultures (worlds) where the uterine replicator would have deeply affected the planet's entire population and culture(s). She simplifies things in a lot of cases when it comes to the planets and "planetary cultures" but she's got some very complex plots and characters going on so the fact that a world might have one homogenous culture isn't really important. Plus her primary "home world" of Barrayar is decidedly NOT homogenous, not at all. That's the conflict of the 20-book series.

If you're interested, I'd recommend the second or third book she ever wrote (4th or 5th in the series) was Ethan of Athos . Ethan is a really funny story with a remarkably heroic leading male character for a book that doesn't have a "Hero and Heroine" setup. It is kind of a romance. The catch, given this was written in the 1980s by a woman who'd never been published and in a genre that simply didn't accept non-heterosexual situations unless it was orgies for the pleasures of the males involved being a genre dominated by 13-year-old male readers, was that Athos is an all-male planet. They are all gay. They believe women are actually Evil personified and they are a planetary religious cult. It's pretty funny. It's done half-seriously but it's pretty funny becuase Lois cannot help but BE pretty funny. She has an amazingly well-done dry wit, without even trying. Ethan introduces a character (Elli) who becomes a major character in later stories of the series as a love interest elsewhere but here, she plays the Hero sort of role, rescuing poor, naive Ethan from himself when he goes out into the Big Bad Galaxy. It's a total role reversal as classic story setups go, but you don't even notice it at first. YOU will, now that I've mentioned it but otherwise, you wouldn't. Which is part of Lois's magic and original talent. She manages to get things into your head without actually doing it overtly.

Another great story in that series that I think is hilarious is one of the other uterine replicator trio: Cetaganda. It's technically a murder mystery novel but it's deifnitely NOT just a murder mystery. I mean there's a murder and it sure is a mystery but that's like the BACKDROP to the real story. It's all about the people in Lois's stories and Cetagandans are....fascinating people! OMG, the culture is just ... you have to read the book to really grasp it. Just don't have a drink in your hand or you'll be on spray alert the whole time. Between LOL moments and plot twists, Lois keeps you fully-engaged with Cetaganda.

My #1 favorite book of the series is a really dark one and I like it because of the quality of the writing, the metaphors and similes are layered and textured and the sheer elegance of the prose, at times, is stunning. I don't think Lois did it that way on purpose. It really is a horrific story at times, with gruesome darkness and psychological torture but maybe she put such literary beauty into it to counteract that. Oh, I forgot to say which one it is. Mirror Dance which comes quite late in the series.

The beauty of the way Lois writes a series is that anyone can jump into her series at any point with any book and NOT be lost. If you need to know what happened in another book, she'll tell you -- and there's no infodumping. She actually makes the history part of the current story. I can only hope to achieve even a fraction of the level of skill she has mastered. She's won enough awards to make a chain link necklace out of them for a very good reason. She is a VERY good master of her craft.

She also writes High Fantasy (which I loathe but I read one and while I hated the book itself I loved the writing; she does Fantasy even better than SciFi!!) and she's tried to cross over into straight romance (the Vorkosigan series is a bit romantic but apparently scifi enough to ward off hard core romance readers)

Anyone looking for extremely well-written prose outside their literary comfort zone, try Lois. You'll be a convert to the SF/F genre but you'll also be spoiled. There's nothing else on the market quite like a Bujold. It'd be like looking for a second collection of Monets or Picassos. Imitators aren't quite the same, are they?

-sry

[[deleted user]]

@Susan. It seems that there are more of us who disagree with Faulkner's high esteem, and quite a lot are American. I was discussing him with another member recently and she was of the same opinion. Overrated.

@STWgW. I love reading Sci-Fi but you've given me an glut of books. If you can narrow it down to one I'll add it to my to-read list for next year.

[Sarah]

Declan, depends on your taste or mood - want something madcap and somewhat "classic" in its scifi-ness? Try Ethan of Athos. Want something esoteric, funny but more elegant than a pulp? That's Cetaganda. As I said, Mirror Dance is quite dark.

Oh, here's one you can read for free, from the Baen Books site, itself. (Baen is the publisher for Lois's Vor series) Borders of Infinity. It's kind of a soliloquy, a weird sort of story in one act. It also is referred to a lot in later volumes of the series. And as I said, it's available to read for FREE off the Baen web site as it's the first chapter of the omnibus, Miles Errant.

WARNING, you might become addicted if you keep reading the free chapters b/c the next several are from the full-length novel, Brothers in Arms which immediately precedes Mirror Dance and if you read all of BiA, you'll have a "need" to know what happens to Mark ;-)

Hah! And you thought I'd narrow the choices, didn't you? Nope. Not I, said the little red hen.

[Mae]

Sorry I am coming back to this. But I was off line for a day.
After reading all the anti Faulkner rhetoric, I should probably quit. But I have never been known to be a coward about letting my opinions be known- whether on the internet or in person.

I totally understand were you guys are coming from. I could never get into "As I lay dying". Then I came across "Intruder in the dust", which I read along with "To Kill a Mockingbird"--forced. It was a class I took in Highschool. However, after much screaming and fighting, I came to learn that what those two did for American, specifically southern Literature was a first, original and passionate. Faulkner was a lot harder than Harper Lee. But as an American Citizen from the Caribbean, the realities and subtleties of American Southern life, which are very similar to my own, hit very hard. Its one of those things, you need to know about the inside stories to truly understand the webs in certain books. And finally, the progeny and authors influenced by Faulkner speaks for itself and to the originality of his work.
In fact, I try to discover the literature of the countries that I move to. Now, I am reading as much Irish Literature, Folklore and Politics as possible--in turn my appreciation and understanding of certain Irish authors that I just never quite "got" is changing. I have done this, in Italy, France and now in Ireland... and I read as much in Spanish as I possibly can, from all over the Spanish world. The whole idea, is to understand the worlds in the book.
Then again, we don't all need to like the same books, not even the classics. I for one have tried to read Ulysses three times (You need to know not only the Odyssey but Irish politics of the time to truly get it)... and have given up. Like Sarah I despise Dickens, for his wordiness... yet love the stories--turned into movies.
At any rate, whether I really like Faulkenr or not, I cannot honestly refute the originality and talent of his writings. Which is what I thought I was talking about.
And Declan, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or maybe I just was not clear. When I spoke about the honesty of an author-- I was also considering situations in which ideas and stories are borrowed or reshaped for an honestly artistic purpose and that finally "The artistry of the writing the rhythm, the musicality of the words... that in itself is what defines the original." I think we agree on that. Truth be told we agree on everything except that you think that Faulkner is overrated. Heck, there are a more than couple Nobel Price winners... which I consider never deserved them....

[Sarah]

Mae, there are a lot of good story ideas out there but some authors (i.e., Dickens) shouldn't try to execute them. He had talent, that's the real pity of it. I can see his imagination--he just couldn't bring himself to execute the story effectively. He was only concerned with the penny per word fees.

It's like the famous contest held annually, for "...it was a dark and stormy night ... " (grin)

[Mae]

Agreed. Where is the honesty... when you write just for fees? I get the need to earn a living. But art is for arts sake, a need, a purpose plus talent... that is where it comes from. True art may bring fortune and even a living.
I think we all agree that some writers are overrated. But I like to find that out on my own. That is why I like to search for recommendations from fellow readers. There is a pearl to be found.
PS When I first read Faulkner he was not a classic yet...

[Mae]

I had to paste this here.
“Read, read, read. Read everything -- trash, classics, good and bad, and see how they do it. Just like a carpenter who works as an apprentice and studies the master. Read! You'll absorb it.
Then write. If it's good, you'll find out. If it's not, throw it out of the window.”
― William Faulkner

[Sarah]

Ahh, so he encouraged the illegal behavior of littering and expected others to pick up after him? LOL

Sorry, Mae, but I had to reply to quote. I got the point of it but even in his moments of trying to impart wisdom, I find him to be an arse.

It's funny that in your previous note (comment #22) you say "art is for art's sake" - funny because I used to argue that, refusing to publish or share my art with anyone. For years. I mean serious arguments that used to come to words I won't repeat here. I've been writing since I was 9, reading since I was 4; now, at 51, I still love doing both. For many years, however, I only allowed very close, very well-trusted friends to ever see my work--and then they'd promptly tell everyone they knew about it and I'd get total strangers wanting to read my stuff. It was unnerving. Then again, I've always known I have an extremely vivid imagination and I've been told since I was about 10 that I have a very visual style of writing so the vivid imagination comes through, in powerful, vibrant characters.

I always analyze other writers--the second or third time I read their story, assuming it holds my interest long enough to get me through it more than once. If it's not good enough to provoke a yearning in me to read it again, it has nothing to teach me. That's my measure of worth.

And I could never throw a book out of a window, never mind the person it might hit or the fact it's illegal littering or even how rude it is to expect someone else to pick it up after you, but the poor book didn't do anything wrong.

I can't help but think of one of my favorite Bujold quotes, regarding children who are blamed for not living up to the expectations of the adults around them. They didn't ask to be born. That's Lois in a nutshell. She has such a great perspective on things, never gets twisted around or assinine or selfish.

Writing is a solitary activity when we writers must, by virtue of the nature of our craft, become self-absorbed. To be able to stop at will and be a normal, nice, well-adjusted member of society in those rare moments when not writing is an art form unto itself. I don't think non-writers actually understand how hard it is to do both. Heck, many writers might not understand they're doing both and just not aware of it! I definitely know I'm selfish and self-absorbed. I also care about others, far too much sometimes. I cry for total strangers far too often and have risked my life (literally) to help strangers falling prey to violence in public. I need to care less and be more self if Faulkner is any kind of role model (haha - not!)

-sry
Writers write but now I'm writing here instead of in my current project undergoing edits so I shall stop replying. Not ignoring you, just being self-centered for my art's sake! LOL

[Mae]

Well said girl! “Always dream and shoot higher than you know you can do. Do not bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.”
― William Faulkner

[Mae]

“Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. ”
― William Faulkner
Now you go and write, I like you a lot! I am an unpublished writer and a painter and I do not throw away anything... and much of my stuff may not be as good as I wished. But, hell and high heaven I keep working. So I hear you... I mean read you.

[Mae]

Oh and art for art's sake does not mean not to show it or sell it... its going to the honesty of the work itself. I sell my art and I have tried to sell my writing. I am not good enough for the marketing world. But my few readers seem to enjoy it and for now that is good for me.

[[deleted user]]

I can only address some of the previous comments.

@Mae.& @STWgW. I happened to have read To Kill a Mockingbird and, unlike As I Lay Dying, I absolutely loved it. I felt a real connection with the characters and the plot and pace were thoroughly engrossing. Also, after all these years, it still has an impact on new readers who feel themselves brought back to that period. I'm also going to defend Charles Dickens. He was one of the first writers who wrote truly accessible fiction. Classless fiction, so to speak. Even though it dealt with poverty and the class divide it was written with broad appeal. I have read A Tale of Two Cities and Great Expectations, both of which are excellent. I also like the way he devised names to suit his characters; Bumble, Twist, Scrooge, Magwitch, Chuzzlewit. No other writer has ever had a flair for names as he had.

@STWgW. I have added Ethan of Athos for the New Year

[Sarah]

OMG, I had a REALLY long comment composed here but because I'm on the iPad, when I went to another window to get a link and came back...it's gone. Sorry, not doing that composition again. I spent 15 min on it already! eep! Here's the link (since it's in my iPad's buffer)

The Warrior's Apprentice (free through the Baen Free Library - you can buy it from that page or just download it, your choice...so if you get it free and like it, you can support the author by paying for a copy *wink*) TWA is the typical "entry point" for the series but you'll like Ethan.

Okay I'll repeat this much: I was going to say let's read the book together Declan but I tend to read REALLY quickly. I could probably read Ethan in one sitting (6 hrs) but typically take two days to read a book like that - 3 if I have to go to work or do something. I rarely take longer than 3 days to read a book that easy and fun to read. It's not a complicated mystery. It's hilarious and a page-turner but not tense or complicated. Oh there are Easter Eggs planted (some stuff randomly mentioned in Ethan ended up spawning Cetaganda) but Lois doesn't expect you to notice that unless you're reading the series again (which readers tend to do 4 or 5 or more times)

I'll also note I heard on Baen's Bar (the publisher's site) that Lois just turned in a manuscript for "Ivan, His Booke" :) It's actually going to be called Captain Vorpatril somethingorother but its working title was Ivan, His Booke. It'll be a madcap comedy (because Lois does those exceedingly well as you'll see with Ethan which is supposed to be mostly serious but turns out to be hilarious at times) mostly because Ivan is the comic relief character of the series. She created Ivan specifically to BE the comic relief. He kept coming off so dashing and clever, darn characters never doing what the author wants! :)

-sry
Sarah (who had NO CLUE who STWGW was and even scrolled back and forth up the page trying to find someone who's initials matched that -- until I realized you meant ME!)

[Susan]

Declan wrote: "Susan wrote: ""The Tell Tale Heart" is one of my favorite stories ever. I read it when I was 13 or 14 and had nightmares forever. Let us know what you think. Adults have an entire different viewpoi..."
It's funny that Poe and Faulkner have received more discussion than our monthly read. I guess that's a great reason to read the classics. I think what age you are when you read them makes a difference. I loved "Catcher in the Rye" when I was in high school but have not reread it. Would I like it as much at 58 as I did then? I think John Steinbeck was more of an influence on me than Faulkener. Of course, I know the area he wrote about very well. What does everyone think of Steinbeck?

[[deleted user]]

@STWgW. I have two books to read to take me past my 50 book Goodreads challenge. They will be this month's read and Edgar Allan Poe. I'll probably only read the monthly read in January as I have important exams on the horizon, so Ethan of Athos will most likely have to wait until near February. Sorry about the shorthand tag, but I do tend to that for long or double-barrel names in discussions.

@Susan. I loved Catcher In The Rye, but I think that I mostly liked it because I was a teenager when I read it. About the same age as Holden Caulfield. I have read The Pearl and Of Mice and Men by Steinbeck. I love his work. True genius! I intend to read more of it in the future. Another recommendation wouldn't go amiss, please.

[Mae]

Ah Steinbeck... now we are talking!
These discussions is what I crave. It doesn't really matter what we are reading, we can always have these. I am glad.
I don't think I want to ruing my opinion on Catcher in they Rye. I loved it when I read it. I am afraid I am not going to like him the next time around, and there is a lot to discover out there. But I will love to hear and participate in the discussion.
BTW, the new book is a genius idea, I am looking for it.

[Sarah]

I think the story behind Of Mice and Men was amazing--for its time--but it was far more impactful when it came out than it is meaningful to kids nowadays. I don't know if they'd even be able to fully-grasp the kind of violence done by the level of worldwide hatred alluded to in Of Mice and Men. These days, we take violence in stride so often--too often.

Forex, yesterday in Kabul, Afghanistan a bomber killed 48 (or more) people and although it's trending on Twitter, it's more of a trend than a discussion or outrage. I'm not saying that specific political issue shoudl be discussed more or less than forex, the child slaves working salt mines in Chechnya or the 9 yo girls being raped by grown men who are HIV positive and STILL believe the blood of a virgin (so they have to rape her hard enough to causing bleeding internally) will actually cure them of the virus.

It's sick the things we are doing to do our children (many of the Kabul deaths were children) but we take it in stride. We trend on Twitter. We go about our daily grind -- and I'm as guilty. I have to leave shortly for my day job. It's just hard on the soul and thinking back to when I first encountered Of Mice and Men reminds me of a different day/age...whcih was less than 100 years ago. So much changes and so much stays the same!

-sry
(Sarah ;-)

[Sarah]

@Declan, let me know when you start Ethan (drop a PM here on GR forex or hit me on the Webbiegrrl Page on FB) and I'll start it with you...as I said, I'll probably finish it way before you but I'll start it with you :) Then we can dish about it.

[[deleted user]]

The difference with the violence in Of Mice and Men and modern news-reel violence, is that Lennie would have been ultimately harmless had he been a smaller man. His massive size and strength lead to a death and other tragic events that would not have happened if his actions had been carried out by a typical/smaller man. And then (view spoiler)[ there's Lennie's death at the hands of George. George took no pleasure in it and gained nothing from it. It's hard to know what exactly motivated George at that moment. I took it as a mixture of pity for Lennie, his weariness from caring for him and an attempt to save him from the possible fate he'd suffer at the hands of Curley and the other ranch workers. What I love about Steinbeck is the I was never sure which was the most important factor to George, but I could still understand why he did it. (hide spoiler)]

@STWgW. Ethan is only 230+ pages. If I can get a few hours to myself I should fly through it. I will let you know when I start. As long as you don't mind waiting.

[Mae]

The way I see it violence is violence... whether it happens in our reality or it happened 100 years ago. 100 years ago there were no IUD's or pipe bombs, I will give you that... but violence against children, women and the handicapped, the poor and the dispossessed was scary. Children were enslaved, young girls were raped by "husbands" and strangers. Rape was so common, it was an everyday thing around the world. Serfs were starved. There was no medical care for most people... no healthy food for the poor. There was no internet or twitter to inform the people. But the reality was far worse than it is now. Not only was it happening were it happens now, but also in the western world. Just look at the history of Ireland, the things that my Church did here.
Now, some people may be desensitized to violence, but there are voices claiming for the victims. Voices that were not raised or heard 100 years ago. That is what we read in mice and men... the violence when there was no twitter.
Contrary to popular believe (the ever positive lover of mankind in me) I feel that we are less desensitized to violence now. We see it on TV and the internet... but before, people lived it everyday. Rape is a crime. Hunger is a violation of human rights. Torture is a crime. It still happens, more often than it should... but at least there is a notion that it is wrong! That is a big change. And I am embarrased that the change is not more important.
I am not being argumentative ( yet I am and for that I apologize) but this is a pet peeve of mine!
I love reading your opinions, and I respect them, even when we disagree.

[Sarah]

Declan wrote: "@STWgW. Ethan is only 230+ pages. If I can get a few hours to myself I should fly through it. I will let you know when I start. As long as you don't mind waiting."

I definitely don't mind waiting--I'm trying to publish a book around New Year's and then get it out in paperback ASAP after that!! I'm going to be lucky if I can manage to decompress with you and "Ethan" for a day! But yeah, it's a pretty quick read. It's got a LOT of story packed into it though. I'm surprised it's coming up as only 230 pages. Did you buy a paperback or an omnibus or get an e-version or what?

-sry (and you're going to get me used to the whole S..I have to go check/copy it, wait...STWgW, aren't you? :)

[Sarah]

Mae, I don't want to go off on an emotionally charged tangent here but your comments re rape.... was PAST tense??!! Uhh, sorry, present tense. VERY present. Like in the few minutes it's taken me to write this, you and I could have been raped and beaten if we were UNlucky enough to have been born in a different geographic region than we were. You and I are also of somewhat contemporary age so I'll be daring and assume you know darn well that when we were girls in our teens and 20s, rape was as common as it is today, as cavalier as it was 100 years ago. Rape is an ongoing problem because women are non-violent creatures. If we ever did to men what men do to us, our species would self-terminate. That and if men had to bear children (LOL)

Which segues nicely back into the story of Ethan of Athos and men gestating and raising children without the involvement of women :-) It's a truly hilarious story. I'm kidding. THAT aspect of it is actually quite touching. Lois represents "parents" with equal-gender opportunity.

p.s. regarding your last line there I love reading your opinions, and I respect them, even when we disagree. THANK YOU!! I enjoy a good discussion and absolutely do not mind disagreement, when done respectfully and you are absolutely respectful. I only hope I am as well. I find that disagreement makes me stop and think and question my own belief system. Sometimes I even change my mind! Not about this but sometimes it does happen ^_^

[Mae]

About the PS... yes you are very respectful... and yes I love disagreements for the same reason as you...
Clarification-- I only used "was" because I was talking about the past and how very violent it was then. On point, because the discussion was that someone had said that it is more violent now and not as violent then.... The present tense would have not worked to reveal my point, however, present rape is.
I also said "Rape is a crime" now-- 100 year ago and even less, it not only was not a crime, but when it was, the victim was the family of the woman--not the woman herself. That in itself was insult over injury-- a second crime on the same woman.
I don't think we will ever eliminate rape in our lifetime, but at least it is a recognizable crime. There is help and support for victims--even in Africa. (I have many friends working on precisely that issue) My point was and is that there has always been violence, there will always be violence-- and however insignificant or futile our attempts may be--now, some people care about this issue, if nothing else-- women are recognized as the victims.
There is much to be done. But I have hope.
PS You are absolutely right, when I was in my teens-- date rape was rampant... and it was okay and it was our "fault"... Now, girls can say NO, and if they go on... it is a rape . That is major. And I know first hand.
2PS I became an attorney, because I like to argue... not because I was trained to argue.... and I love a good argument, and this is one! For me it is not about wining, but about finding the meeting of the minds. Which in my experience -- can be found in most instances.