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Dune 7
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Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "David wrote: "In all the criticisms and praises that I've read both here and at Amazon and many other places, I've never heard anyone mention the possibility that when Brian and Kevin ..."Right now I am sitting in my corner waiting for the Harris Poll to come out to see who plays in the NC Game. Everything else pales in comparison .
David wrote: "I've never heard anyone mention the possibility that ... Brian and Kevin came upon the notes..."I'm sure they did. And then wiped with them to boot.
How are things over at KJA's Special Forces site? Is this breathless new fanboy "What if they REALLY were Frank's characters and ideas to begin with?!" gusher REALLY your idea, or did Kevin whisper it tenderly in your virtual ear over there?
I guess it's easy to buy (or come up with) crap like that when you (STILL?!) haven't read all of Frank Herbert's original Dune books.
Whatever.
SandChigger wrote: "David wrote: "I've never heard anyone mention the possibility that ... Brian and Kevin came upon the notes..."I'm sure they did. And then wiped with them to boot.
How are things over at KJA's Sp..."
Hey, ya found me! Good, I could use the backup!
Matthew wrote: ".... In short, I'd like to know what people were expecting and whether or not they were pleased with BH's and KJA's version...."Hi. Just joined, and just noticed this very interesting thread on a subject I've always been very interested in.
Short, direct answer first : I was expecting work which I hoped would attempt to equal or at least try to approach the stellar standards of Frank Herbert's style and tell a good story as well. After reading it I was not pleased. Not pleased at all.
The books "written" by Herbert Junior (though I have my doubts about his input to the project) and Kevin Anderson are, quite simply, appalling. They are a disgrace and possess no redeeming qualities at all apart from uses that can be derived from their size and shape.
For instance, the first edition paperback of House Harkonnen is of a form that is perfect as a base for a Netgear DG834G router. Good heat-insulation from the PC's case, and excellent height for wireless broadcasting to my Kindle and laptop. Most of the other paperbacks (all originally bought second-hand, naturally) have all served very well in the "emergency kitchen & garage spillages" field, and whilst there are problems with using them in the "emergency bathroom sundries" area (rash, abrasions, post-wipe afterglow, U-bend blockages, etc) beggars can't be choosers when it comes to personal hygiene and you're facing a "no wipe" empty cardboard tube scenario.
Mr. Anderson. The man can't write. It's really as simple as that. It's juvenile fan-fiction that got lucky. An assembly-line of turgid, boring, pointless nonsense.
I am of the opinion that those who control Frank Herbert's legacy should immediately and forthwith tell Anderson to go away; give Herbert Junior a good talking to; and issue a full apology to the world over this horrific situation. And then find someone who can write to carry the project onwards.
Hope this helps.
You know, when I happened upon this thread I actually thought I was going to be reading about Dune 7. Instead I seemed to have stepped into the middle of some personal vendettas against BH and KA. What is this? The "Kevin Anderson is the Anti-Christ" fan club? Anyone who is positively disposed towards liking the newer books is attacked for their opinions. It is silly and juvenile. You all have the right to dislike the book(s), but to imply that one of the posters here is doing the author's bidding to discredit him is carrying things a bit too far.
Goldenpathological wrote: "For instance, the first edition paperback of House Harkonnen is of a form that is perfect as a base for a Netgear DG834G router..."rofl
Mary wrote: "You know, when I happened upon this thread I actually thought I was going to be reading about Dune 7. Instead I seemed to have stepped into the middle of some personal vendettas against BH and KA. What is this?"I'd say it's the kind of post someone who's a member of some kind of "Kevin Anderson is Christ" fan club would write, Mary. And you do it very well. Well done.
Mary wrote: "The "Kevin Anderson is the Anti-Christ" fan club?"
No, Mary. I've always imagined the Anti-Christ, when and if He ever appears in our midst will turn out to be a very interesting person, and as Kevin is an extremely uninteresting person indeed the chances of him being (or ever becoming) the said Demonic character are, at best, exceedingly tenuous. I think the best that Kevin can ever hope for is something a little less grand like, say, a troublesome goblin, or even a house-elf like the one in Harry Whatsisname.
Mary wrote: "Anyone who is positively disposed towards liking the newer books is attacked for their opinions."
I like that sentence, Mary. Not the second half and all that imagined nonsense about being attacked, but the first half; I intend to utilise the form in future conversations. "I am positively disposed towards liking the meal I have just eaten". Yes - it's got a ring to it.
Mary wrote: "You all have the right to dislike the book(s)"
Thank you, Mary. I was getting worried, you see, and I thought that maybe I'd been transported into some alternate reality (like they do on Star Trek) where they didn't allow folks to state their opinions on awful authors who write execrable books. Thank you for putting my mind at rest. Cheers.
Goldenpathological wrote: "Mary wrote: "You know, when I happened upon this thread I actually thought I was going to be reading about Dune 7. Instead I seemed to have stepped into the middle of some personal vendettas agains..."Attacking a book because you dislike it is one thing. Attacking posters is another. Do I think KA is the best thing since sliced bread? No. Do I think the books were entertaining. Yes. Do you really think that trying to quash any dissenting poster furthers your argument? It merely makes you look like a bully. Lighten up.
Mary wrote: "Goldenpathological wrote: "Mary wrote: "You know, when I happened upon this thread I actually thought I was going to be reading about Dune 7. Instead I seemed to have stepped into the middle of som..."I would be inclined to agree. Can we keep this civil people? We can disagree without being harsh with one another. However, I'd say that goes both ways. Claiming you are being attacked just because someone is disagreeing with you is not accurate. And claiming that people who don't like this book are motivated by vendettas or their opinions are just their own and not based on anything isn't constructive either.
Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "Goldenpathological wrote: "Mary wrote: "You know, when I happened upon this thread I actually thought I was going to be reading about Dune 7. Instead I seemed to have stepped into the ..."I originally was not commenting about an attack on me, but one on another poster. Then I was attacked as well. You and I got into some lively exchanges, but they did not really get personal. I think that it is wonderful to be passionate about literary works. I would not be on this site if I did not love books. However the criticism against posters who happened to enjoy the books just seems entirely over the top to me. It almost seems as if we are being encouraged to change our minds about liking the books.
I hated Great Expectations when I read it 40 years ago. Pip was not a character that I could in any way identify with or have empathy for. I loved everything else I read by Dickens, but not GE. Many of my friends loved that book and its quality is apparent due to its continued popularity. I would never try to sway someone away from their devotion to GE and can understand that different people have different likes and dislikes. I feel sorry for the person that actually started this thread. I doubt he realized he was starting a firestorm.
Mary wrote: "Attacking a book because you dislike it is one thing. Attacking posters is another."Thank you, Mary. That really needed to be pointed out. It did. Also, a stitch in time saves nine, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Mary wrote: "Do I think KA is the best thing since sliced bread? No. Do I think the books were entertaining. Yes."
Yes, Mary. Well said. And it never rains but it pours. I, myself, have always compared Kevin with an assortment of inanimate objects since I first read his drivel, but never to sliced bread. Perhaps an unconscious reference to his general stodginess, lack of flavour and tendency to go stale very quickly? I like it. Thanks.
Mary wrote: "Do you really think that trying to quash any dissenting poster furthers your argument? It merely makes you look like a bully. Lighten up. "
Sure will, Mary. While your plea to, ah, "lighten up" falls, nay, plummets into the "pot calling the kettle black" realm, I can see how your apparent total lack of any sense of humour whatsoever bars you from seeing it. Which is in itself funny. Cheers!
Okay! This is why forums have moderators I guess! Mary had a point when she said that we came here to discuss Dune 7. Clearly we can't do that without getting into the likes and dislikes of it, or whether or not it's cool to take over someone else's franchise. But as I recall, I also asked what people expected from the ending; meaning, what were they hoping or expecting to happen? Consider this an invite to offer your thoughts on an alternate ending. Call it "what Frank REALLY intended" if you must, or "wouldn't it have been cool if...?". I got some thoughts, wouldn't mind hearing other people's too.
Goldenpathological wrote: "Mary wrote: "Attacking a book because you dislike it is one thing. Attacking posters is another."Thank you, Mary. That really needed to be pointed out. It did. Also, a stitch in time saves nine, ..."
Since you just joined this site, list no books, and have made no comments besides this thread, I can only assume you came here with the express purpose of tearing down an author you clearly dislike. Since I happen to like the newer Dune books I have been "fortunate" enough to be included in your sarcastic diatribe as well. I actually have a great sense of humor...if something is funny. Your reference to stale bread was slightly clever - I will give you that. May hot nails rain down upon my head for resorting to a cliche in my post. You can pat yourself on the back now. If your aim was to drive away any posters who have differing opinions from your own, you have succeeded. At my age I no longer have any tolerance for raving lunatics.
Matthew wrote: "Okay! This is why forums have moderators I guess! Mary had a point when she said that we came here to discuss Dune 7. Clearly we can't do that without getting into the likes and dislikes of it, or ..."Goldenpathological wrote: "Mary wrote: "Attacking a book because you dislike it is one thing. Attacking posters is another."
Thank you, Mary. That really needed to be pointed out. It did. Also, a stitch in time saves nine, ..."
http://www.facebook.com/groups/222864...
Ricco wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Okay! This is why forums have moderators I guess! Mary had a point when she said that we came here to discuss Dune 7. Clearly we can't do that without getting into the likes and dis..."Hey, thanks for the shout out!
Matthew wrote: "Ricco wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Okay! This is why forums have moderators I guess! Mary had a point when she said that we came here to discuss Dune 7. Clearly we can't do that without getting into the..."I am a supporter of the work of BH/KJA in the Universe of Dune myself, but I thought you could bring up your arguments with the Herbert family(a number of them are administrators of the group along with KJA)and KJA if your agruements mean that much to you http://www.facebook.com/groups/222864....
Mary wrote: "Since you just joined this site, list no books, and have made no comments besides this thread, I can only assume you came here with the express purpose of tearing down an author you clearly dislike."That's called "paranoia", Mary. Quite common affliction, actually. Especially on forums, for some reason. Hope you get better soon.
Mary wrote: "I actually have a great sense of humor...if something is funny."
Of course, Mary. That's what all humourless people say when their humourlessness is pointed out to them. Just you hang on in there, Mary. Tomorrow might be a better day, etc.
Mary wrote: "Your reference to stale bread was slightly clever - I will give you that. May hot nails rain down upon my head for resorting to a cliche in my post. You can pat yourself on the back now."
Thank you, Mary. I'm always grateful when strange, humourless internet people grant me permission to pat my own lumbar regions when I inform them that they write in cliches. I'm still reeling from your assurance that I can, indeed, state my opinions on awful authors who write execrable books, you see, so I regard myself as having been doubly blessed. Thanks.
Mary wrote: "If your aim was to drive away any posters who have differing opinions from your own, you have succeeded. At my age I no longer have any tolerance for raving lunatics."
That's a shame, Mary. Remember, self-loathing is bad, and when you combine it with humourlessness and paranoia (and a tendency to take things too seriously, alas) you've got a problem which must be dealt with. Anyway, good luck, and keep reading Kevin. Whatever makes you happy-ish, that's what I say.
Hey, guess what? Taking Rico's advice (thanks Rico), I went to the Saga of Dune website on facebook and got onto the post that Rico (thanks again) provided. Wouldn't you know it, KJA wrote me back! Here's what he said:"Sorry you don't like the new books, Matt. The "glaring inconsistencies" the Talifan complain about have all been addressed in the novels, but they don't--or don't want to--read very carefully. The fact that they have not attacked the "glaring inconsistencies" in the original Frank Herbert books with the same vehemence seems a bit of a double standard."
So, now I am responding by point out what I meant by glaring inconsistencies. Seems they thought I was referring to plot holes in the books, not how it ended.
Ricco wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Ricco wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Okay! This is why forums have moderators I guess! Mary had a point when she said that we came here to discuss Dune 7. Clearly we can't do that without ..."Well, its going! I'm getting some interesting feedback from the man himself, and I can't help but feel this is a unique opportunity. It's not every day that you get to take your questions and challenges to the very person you're calling out. If anyone else wants to join in, just remember to be polite. Apparently, we are known as the "Talifan" over there, so I want to prove them wrong about us by showing just how civil and logical our complaints are!
Thanks again for posting me and the invite, Ricco, that's what very cool of you!
I will say that you are one of the most civil of the people I've discussed with concerning this that come from an opposing viewpoint. Of course, a lot of the people I've discussed this with in the past that have opposing viewpoints are a part of a dedicated group that are against Brian and Kevin's adaptations (one of which you apparently know as you acknowledged him when he posted on here), but whether or not you are a part of that group doesn't matter to me. As you say, it's all about being able to disagree in a civil and polite manner. "Inside comments" from "both sides" should always be put "on hold" in matters such as this. Just know that I appreciate what you are doing Matthew, and I am glad you are proving my initial wonderings about you as being wrong. Even if in the end we wind up having to agree to disagree, I find you to be someone worth talking to about Dune because of the way you are going about things. It's rather refreshing.
Matthew wrote: "Here's what he (Kevin Anderson) said":".... The fact that they have not attacked the "glaring inconsistencies" in the original Frank Herbert books with the same vehemence seems a bit of a double standard."
Tut-tut. How dare we Frank Herbert fans (talifans, rather) not "attack" Frank Herbert for including some "glaring inconsistencies" in his own, original, unique works. There's just no end to the wickedness of us people. Punishment. That's what we need.
David wrote: "I will say that you are one of the most civil of the people I've discussed with concerning this that come from an opposing viewpoint. Of course, a lot of the people I've discussed this with in the ..."Why thank you, David. And I hope to talk here, to be honest. Over on the other site, I can't help but feel that if I disagree or state my case too directly, I will be offending or drawing KJA back and make him feel like he needs to defend his work. Frankly, I think I got all I can from him on the subject of inconsistencies and such.
Speaking of which, and with regards to what you were saying, I feel that KJA and Brian's ending might be said to connect Franks work to theirs, but I still don't see how Frank could have been planning for it. I believe them when they say they had notes, but my opinion is those notes did not include how the series was going to end, nor did it specify what the Butlerian Jihad would have looked like. Simply put, don't think Frank ever got around to conceiving of this in his lifetime.
So in a way, both arguments could be said to be true. Yes, Frank did leave notes behind and was intended to write about the Butlerian Jihad. But Brian and Kevin still created the Jihad, Erasmus and Omnius, and established the connection to Dune 7 themselves. They established connections by bringing up Norma Cenva as the Oracle of Time in the Preludes series and spoke of Erasmus experimenting with Face Dancers (not sure where this happened) to explain why Face Dancers would be doing their bidding in the conclusion.
But, as I told Kevin, this seems contrived, even it can be made to fit. It seems at odds with what Frank was doing, especially since it didn't involve characters from his original series. But alas, he had a valid point when he said you like or you don't. Might sound like a cop out to some of us, but that's the ending they wrote, Frank isn't around to consult, and there's nothing I or anyone else can do about that. Well, we can say we don't approve, and the more hard core among us can demand to see the notes. But we all know that's not going to happen ;)!
Matthew wrote: "Over on the other site, I can't help but feel that if I disagree or state my case too directly, I will be offending or drawing KJA back and make him feel like he needs to defend his work. Frankly, I think I got all I can from him on the subject of inconsistencies and such."As works of fiction generally don't have version 2.0, they are what they are, and it would be a bit much to expect any open concessions from an author who has his reputation to defend. However, it is good that you shared your views with him because there is a small chance that your criticisms would influence him in the future books.
Matthew wrote: "In short, I'd like to know what people were expecting and whether or not they were pleased with BH's and KJA's version."I've been a fan of the original series for over 20 years. I read the first four original novels around the time of the Lynch movie, the next two as they came out in PB in Australia.
When House Atreides was first announced, I wasn't sure what to expect, but I was hopeful. Brian was involved, which I thought boded well, and I had read some of KJA's X-files novels, and enjoyed them. So I was more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I *wanted* to like them.
I read the House trilogy, and thought it was about average. The plots were a bit simplistic, and the deviations from the canon (House Vernius? No-ships before "Dune"? Artificial spice?) were annoying. But interesting enough to finish.
I couldn't finish the Legends series, though. TBJ just seemed like a Star Wars novel, with one-dimensional characters, a plot so simplistic as to be insulting, and way too much foreshaowing. And some of the writing was clunky as hell. I didn't finish it, and didn't start the others in the series.
I read Hunters and Sandworms when the latter came out in PB, and again, I really *wanted* them to be good. The authors claimed the story was based on the notes, and given the enormity of the task - finishing one of the most respected series in SF - I thought they might bring their A game.
The first half of Hunters wasn't bad, but by the time I reached the end of Sandworms, I was depressed, disgusted and angry. The factual discrepancies were annoying, but what I considered unforgivable was the complete disregard of the themes and messages of the original series. Either the authors didn't understand the original books, or they decided to discard them in favour of simplistic space operatic action.
Furthermore, the Dune 7 novels were *so* badly written. I'm not talking about "style", here, which is the common misconception about criticisms of these books. I'm talking about writing *quality*. Anachronistic phrases abounded. Plot threads went nowhere. Ideas and elements were added with no concern as to whether they belonged in Dune. Chapters "reminded" us of events that had happened but a handful of pages before. There was no suspense, no drama, and the attempts to bring things to a head at the end of Sandworms resulted in a frenzied series of random, preposterous events that made no sense at all.
These books were wretched on virtually every level - as a continuation of Dune, as an SF novel, as a novel of any kind.
I have not, and will not, read any more of these books, but I will continue to tell people how bad the ones I have read are. Dune, and Frank Herbert, deserved better than the mediocre, paid-by-the-word caretakers of his legacy that he received.
HBJ
Hunchback wrote: "Matthew wrote: "In short, I'd like to know what people were expecting and whether or not they were pleased with BH's and KJA's version."I've been a fan of the original series for over 20 years. I..."
Wow, you're experience is almost word for word what mine was! Except that I started the Machine Crusade out of a sense of curiosity, and maybe duty. I even got about halfway through, but nothing changed, so I stopped.
Hunchback wrote: "Matthew wrote: "In short, I'd like to know what people were expecting and whether or not they were pleased with BH's and KJA's version."I've been a fan of the original series for over 20 years. I..."
I applaud you for talking about the specifics you didn't like about the books without revealing elements that would ruin those books for people that still wish to read them even after what you have said. Well done. : )
Thanks, David. The reason I don't give specific examples is because it inevitably leads to an accusation of nitpicking. Or to the misconception that if the specific example I gave can be refuted - no matter how weakly - my entire basis for criticism is unfounded. So instead, I find it simpler just to talk about my reaction to these novels, and give the reasons why.
But believe me, for anyone who appreciated the original series, the most effective way to "ruin" the Dune 7 books is to read them. They don't need any help from me.
HBJ
Matthew wrote: Wow, you're experience is almost word for word what mine was!I think it's a pretty common experience for those familiar with the original series. Stylistic differences aside, the lack of craft in the new novels compared to the old is pretty evident.
Good work over in that facebook discussion, by the way. You kept things civil, but made your points clearly and well.
HBJ
Beyond the Frank Herbert originals, Dune through Chapterhouse, I've only read the House trilogy by KJA and BH which I came away from disappointed. Of the three, House Atreides held my interest the most and even it was full of scenes that seemed padded to increase wordcount. I found Harkonnen and Corino to be difficult reads thanks to slow plots -- I skimmed most of the latter half of Corino just to get to the end.The one thing I came away from and that bothered me the most about these books were those scenes of extreme violence that seemed to exist for no other reason than to provide sensational and voyeuristic titillation. I don't know whose decision it was (I assume KJA) but the scenes of torture and death were so numerous and so "lovingly" presented that they served no other reason than either sicken the reader or to provide red meat for those readers that enjoy violence. I found it completely contrary to what Frank Herbert had done.
Paul wrote: "Beyond the Frank Herbert originals, Dune through Chapterhouse, I've only read the House trilogy by KJA and BH which I came away from disappointed. Of the three, House Atreides held my interest the ..."Interesting. The same is true of the Butlerian Jihad stories. I can remember a particularly visceral scene in the first one when one of the Titans is torturing a suspected member of the "human resistance". He starts by ripping off his hand, cauterizing it with a torch, then dismembering him in front of a crowd.
And the robot Erasmus in the exact same book, he has a scene where he flays some men and puts their organs into a vat, then paints it as a scene, in the hopes of understanding art better. No purposes to either scene, except to establish that the bad guys are really, really bad!
While I was deepley disappointed by Hunters & Sandworms of Dune as the sequel to Frank Herberts last Dune books, he left us hanging on a brilliant cliffhanger and I always felt that not even he himself might have given satisfaction. That said he might have written a brilliant third novel in this new Trilogy. Overall the continuation have been fun to read. They are a nice way to pass your time in my favorite SF series in bookform. Where I love Frank Herberts Dune books I find myself enjoying the BH/KJA novels (with the exception of their view on DUNE &).
I find it amusing that BH/KJA have chosen the theme of fanatism in their new SIsterhood of Dune novel in which the Buterlian Jihad starts to destroy everything they feel is wrong and destroy the people defending it along with the knowledge they have. I wonder if this is some response towards the fierce opponents of the new Dune books?
Mark wrote: " I wonder if this is some response towards the fierce opponents of the new Dune books? "If it is then they have thinner skins than are warranted considering how they've mucked up the Duneiverse over and over again.
Paul wrote: "Mark wrote: " I wonder if this is some response towards the fierce opponents of the new Dune books? "If it is then they have thinner skins than are warranted considering how they've mucked up the..."
They have not mucked up anything. They continued Dune on another level. You have two different levels in the Duniverse one is Frank Herbert and the other one is BH/KJA. One is classic and the other one does cater to people who want more adventures. And it is not as if anybody is forced to read anything outside Frank's oevre. If you dislike it so much then you should just ignore it. I've done with the SW movies and I find it too bad that GL never made episode 1 to 3.
Mark wrote: "Paul wrote: "Mark wrote: " I wonder if this is some response towards the fierce opponents of the new Dune books? "If it is then they have thinner skins than are warranted considering how they've ..."
George Lucas DID make episodes 1-3. And the fact that they were horrendous led many to believe he had lost his way... or mind!
"Many believe he had lost his way"Is a gross overreaction, there are many who consider the new trilogy excellent. You find that there is a vocal group that protests anything GL does or creates with rather dramatic slogans as "he raped my youth". Reaaly now?
I find that a similar group has decided that the New Dune and its writers should be deleted from history. Apperently the books sell well enough to warrant their continuation. While they are not FH they do have something to offer. apperently.
I'm not going to argue about the SW prequels because the criticism of those films has been done much better in a series of videos on YouTube and nothing I say could add to that. Are the BH/KJA Dune books entertaining? I'd say that if I had not come to them with an expectation that they'd be anywhere near the FH written books that I might find them entertaining enough to continue reading. For me they are to the original series what the SW prequels are to their elder counterparts -- dumbed down.
I find the BH/KJA novels with the exception of the two novels that concluded the FH started trilogy a nice read that take place in the Duniverse. I do easily see the difference between the two creations. I have never thrown them together. Franks novels are brilliant while the current Dune books are fun like the novels that continued the SW movies. Some are good and some less but they are entertainment. With Dune there is a bonus, if you discover Frank Herberts core Dune books through the writing of BH/KJA you are in for a treat. In some sense I am jealous, discovering the Dune books was a breathtaking experience.
Mark wrote: ""Many believe he had lost his way"Is a gross overreaction, there are many who consider the new trilogy excellent. You find that there is a vocal group that protests anything GL does or creates wi..."
I fail to see how its an overreaction to say that George Lucas lost his way. Crying rape? Sure. But not saying he's lost sight of what made the originals great. Namely, inspired stories and vision, not the latest film technology and merchandizing opportunities. Statistically speaking, there are very few people who think the new Star Wars were great, outside of small children.
But Paul is right, we're not here to debate that. To address what you said about sales, yes, the new books sell quite well, but I don't see how that proves anything. The Twilight series does very well, yet it's still crap. Anything that appeals to the lowest common denominator does well in the marketplace, which is precisely why many Herbert fans don't like the new books. The content and quality of ideas are not only different, they're vastly inferior. Not to mention how the way they ended it was highly questionable.
I'm glad you agree that Hunters/Sandworms was not up to snuff. If you look back a ways, I cited a number of arguments and material from the original six Dune books to show how the ending couldn't possibly be based on Frank's original notes. Feel free to check it out.
We will never be sure unless the BH/KJA release a copy of said original notes. But I believe even then the NAY-sayers will continue to be negative in any way possible. Perhaps they would feel better if they stuck to the 6 FH books and leave the rest to the readers of the newer books, to enjoy them and discuss them. That way readers do not have to defend enjoying something against people that will not under any circumstance like the books.
Mark wrote: "We will never be sure unless the BH/KJA release a copy of said original notes. But I believe even then the NAY-sayers will continue to be negative in any way possible. Perhaps they would feel bett..."
On that we can agree. When people ask me my opinion of the entire Dune saga, I suggest that they stick to the ones written by Frank Herbert and don't bother with the others. As for the infamous "notes": Unless they are produced and authenticated, I will never believe that they actually exist.
Mark wrote: "We will never be sure unless the BH/KJA release a copy of said original notes.No, we will never be sure, but to dismiss the question out of hand, as if there's no conclusion we can come to by analysing the clues that Frank left us against the published Dune 7 novels, is a cop-out.
Perhaps the Dune 7 outline doesn't exist. Perhaps it exists, but was so sketchy that KJA/BH had to invent an entire framework to include those few elements - but did so without paying much attention to the original six novels. Perhaps the outline exists and was comprehensive, and KJA/BH didn't refer to it much.
One thing is for sure - KJA/BH did not complete Dune 7 the way FH intended.
Mark wrote: "But I believe even then the NAY-sayers will continue to be negative in any way possible."
Possibly, but not without reason. This is one thing you have to realize: most of the "nay-sayers" have no *inherent* objection to new Dune novels. They object because the new novels *suck* - and their existence cheapens the originals.
Will detractors continue to say negative things about the books already published? Yes; those books exist and will always be as bad as they are. But if the HLP decided to dump KJA and team up with a novelist who could produce novels worthy of the Dune name, I would stand and applaud, personally.
Mark wrote: "Perhaps they would feel better if they stuck to the 6 FH books and leave the rest to the readers of the newer books, to enjoy them and discuss them."
Well, I'm sorry, but if there are discussions about the new Dune novels, I will continue to express my opinion about them if I choose. Just as I don't have to read the new books if I don't want to, nor do you have to read my reviews.
I'm not sure how a negative review spoils your enjoyment of a book you like, incidentally. Unless it leads to the realization that the book isn't actually very good, in which case, I'd consider that a good thing.
HBJ
Like most I quit after Children of Dune which was lackluster.I would recommend reading God Emperor. Than quit. Beyond that it's not the interesting. But God Emperor really pulls everything together.
I disagree I found Heretics and Chapterhouse both very entertaining and well written books that were left with the ultimate cliffhanger never to be solved by the original writer.The Frank Herbert six Dunenovels are imho a brilliant series of books that chose to evolve instead of sticking to the original characters.
Kurt wrote: "Like most I quit after Children of Dune which was lackluster.I would recommend reading God Emperor. Than quit. Beyond that it's not the interesting. But God Emperor really pulls everything together."
That's too bad because the series picks up quite a bit in Heretics. That's my opinion, but I seem to be joined by a chorus of people over at the various fan sites. They would largely agree with you that Children and God Emperor were the low point, but you really should see how things evolved after Leto II died. So many hints as to what his Golden Path would entail, so many threads left to come together!
Matthew wrote: "Kurt wrote: "Like most I quit after Children of Dune which was lackluster.I would recommend reading God Emperor. Than quit. Beyond that it's not the interesting. But God Emperor really pulls ever..."
Actually I wrote the second part. The "Kurt wrote" part wasn't me I was replying to someone elses post. I wrote the God Emperor part. Sorry about the confusion.
first I must say that I really loved the original Dune, and maybe the next couple of 'sequels'. I also feel that the recent prequels are pulp. Okok there are worse books but they are far away from Dune.HOWEVER, I felt that the later novels of the original Dune novels are really boring, and somehow just sound like random philosophical ramblings without point. Reading the books, especially the pilosophical parts, and parts about what the god emperor, the bene geserit and other fractions want to achieve just does not make sense. Or maybe it does, it's just that when I read it, I stumble, I read it again, and it makes even less sense, like he is using a language I am not understanding...
I had the impression that someone started with a philosophical thought, took some drugs and got lost in his minds wandering...
I was wondering whether anyone felt like that, too?
Ha! Nice to have someone in your corner, isn't it?