Dune
discussion
Dune 7
I was told not to touch Herbert's sons books as they were mega crap.Dune is amazing and Messiah is very good also. Like most I quit after Children of Dune which was lackluster.
Michael wrote: "I was told not to touch Herbert's sons books as they were mega crap.Dune is amazing and Messiah is very good also. Like most I quit after Children of Dune which was lackluster."
Lorenzo wrote: "I can't say I've read anything by Brian Herbert or Kevin J. Anderson. I can say that their "continuation" of the Dune saga is something separate from the series established by Frank Herbert. Ver..."
Hmm, bit of consensus there. And as someone who's been exposed to the new books, I can tell you missed nothing! Except of course seeing how the series ended and just how controversial it truly was! And Mike, I would tend to agree, things did not really pick up in the series after Messiah until book V, at least in my humble opinion, though I'm surprised to hear you say you didn't like Children much. Most people I've spoken to think IV was the weakest, that being God Emperor.
I loved the first three, including Children of Dune. I struggled with God Emperor for a long time and have yet to finish it. I'm curious about Herectics and Chapterhouse- I wish I could skip to those.I wouldn't go near the sequels, meaning anything written by someone other than Frank Herbert.
I've read the entire original Dune series, House Harkonnen, Atreides and Corrino, even suffered through the bad and really bad adaptations in film. I've skipped the more recent ones, except Sandworms of Dune, because they feel like a rehash of stories I'm very familiar with or frankly, a pathetic attempt to milk the cash cow that was Frank Herbert. Anderson and Brian Herbert can sweep me into the Dune world as easily as Frank Herbert did, but I don't feel the newer novels like Paul of Dune or Winds add anything to the story I already know. There are other avenues the writers could explore. On my wishlist is that they'd write about the period between God Emperor and Heretics; I'd love to know what happened to Leto II's sister Ghanima and her progeny after the events of God Emperor.
I read five of the original Dune books and two of the House trilogy, years ago, and this year I'm [re]reading the whole series (all 18 books) with a book club. My personal feeling is that the original book, Dune, was a mega-achievement never rivaled in any of the later books, Frank Herbert's or otherwise — but, at the same time it is a key that unlocks a whole universe, a universe with plenty of room for inumerable other stories. Frank Herbert left his life's literary work unfinished, the 5 sequels he wrote giving only a few snapshots with wide chasms between. I'm delighted that the son has continued the father's life's work to begin to fill in the missing pieces, in particular with regard to those parts that Frank Herbert left notes and preliminary material for, namely Dune 7, which I am anxious to read. I guess I will have to post back here when I've read them, and say what I thought of them...
One of the biggest problems with the series was that Dune was meant to be a stand alone novel. Messiah picked up and went as far as it could go.
I have read them all with the exceptions of Chapterhouse: Dune, Paul of Dune and the I think it's Winds of Dune. Like everyone, Frank Herbert's were the best. But the newer ones expand upon a new universe. I like where they are headed, and I have enjoyed them immensely. I have two criticisms however. 1 The focus of the later books is mostly characters in Dune. Whereas, FH was wise enough to have many of his characters die during the long time gaps between books. Thereby introducing us to newer characters. 2. I can't help but think that the KJA and BH are capitalizing on the name Dune. That said, I like them all nonetheless.
NibbledToDeathByCats wrote: "I read five of the original Dune books and two of the House trilogy, years ago, and this year I'm [re]reading the whole series (all 18 books) with a book club. My personal feeling is that the orig..."I have a feeling you'll change your mind when you read Dune 7. Warning though, you'll first need to be familiar with the Legends of Dune series, which are the prequels that cover the events of the Butlerian Jihad.
Also, I gather from your screen name you're a fan of B5?
Matthew wrote: "I have a feeling you'll change your mind when you read Dune 7. Warning though, you'll first need to be familiar with the Legends of Dune series, which are the prequels that cover the events of the Butlerian Jihad."I'm going to give it a fair chance. I just finished Children of Dune, and my plan now is to read all of the prequels and interquels before going on to God Emperor of Dune, idea being to go backward in time before going forward in time. This will allow me to read Heretics, Chapterhouse, and the Dune 7 books all in a row, as Herbert would have intended.
Matthew wrote: "Also, I gather from your screen name you're a fan of B5?"
yep
http://www.facebook.com/groups/222864...http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.dunenovels.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/250360...
http://www.facebook.com/groups/752032...
NibbledToDeathByCats wrote: "Matthew wrote: "I have a feeling you'll change your mind when you read Dune 7. Warning though, you'll first need to be familiar with the Legends of Dune series, which are the prequels that cover th..."Hang on, have you read the Legends series yet? Wasn't sure from your previous statement if you had read ALL the prequels or just some...
Matthew wrote: "Hang on, have you read the Legends series yet? Wasn't sure from your previous statement if you had read ALL the prequels or just some... "No. Over a period of ~15 years ago to ~8 years ago I read the first five original Dune books and the first two books of the House trilogy. Now I have started all over and am reading all of the books. In my current reading, I have so far read Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune, and I just started Paul of Dune. After this, Winds of Dune, then the House trilogy, then the Legends trilogy, then God Emperor, Heretics, Chapterhouse, Hunters, and Sandworms. This is what I would call a modified chronological order because I started with Dune (the chronological middle) and the events immediately surrounding it up to Leto's apotheosis, then spiral out, first to the past, then to the future. Now that I am into Paul of Dune a little bit, I wish I had read it before Dune Messiah; enjoying it very much.
I read all of the Dune books by Frank Herbert years ago. When his son and Kevin Anderson decided to continue the series with prequels and an ending, I was skeptical. Generally, someone else writing for a deceased author doesn't turn out well. I was pleasantly surprised. I liked them all. The writing style was definitely different from FH's, but the ideas were his. Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson wrote from Frank Herbert's notes. They told the stories he would have had he lived. Maybe they told them in a different way, but I would rather his stories be told than left to obscurity. For many years, my husband called the new books, "the abominations" and refused to read them. He finally succumbed and was glad he did.
NibbledToDeathByCats wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Hang on, have you read the Legends series yet? Wasn't sure from your previous statement if you had read ALL the prequels or just some... "No. Over a period of ~15 years ago to ~8..."
Ah, okay. Though I might recommend reading only the original Herberts in order before getting to the works of Brian and KJA. And seriously, be on your guard come the Butlerian Jihad and others in the Legends series. They are NOT like the originals or even the House books!
Mary wrote: "I read all of the Dune books by Frank Herbert years ago. When his son and Kevin Anderson decided to continue the series with prequels and an ending, I was skeptical. Generally, someone else writi..."I should point out that the skepticism surrounding the "notes" has been mounting. I'm one of the people who don't believe this, just to be open and fair with you. While the House series does seem to conform to some aspects of Frank's original work, Brian and KJA admitted that Frank left no notes behind to do the whole Butlerian Jihad series. Those were based almost entirely on the duo's own imaginations and frankly, I think it showed!
Have you read the Hunters/Sandworms books yet? Because there too, they swore up and down they were based on Frank's notes, but I don't see how that can be. The ending and key characters were ripped from their Butlerian Jihad books, which as I said, Frank did not have a hand in creating.
I have read Hunters, but so far I cannot bring myself to read the very last one, so I haven't read Sandworms. I probably will within the next couple of months. You know, Helen Fielding wrote a best seller called "Bridget Jone's Diary" that was ultimately made into a blockbuster movie. It was loosely based on Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. Fielding obviously never knew Austen or had any connection to her family, yet she made money off of Austen's ideas and characters. Do I fault her? Of course not. If anyone has the right to make money off of Frank Herbert's works it is his son. While he writes in a different style than his father (not sure how much is his and how much is Andersons though), the writing is still more than adequate and there is still a cohesiveness throughout the prequels that does mesh with the original works. I always thought they practiced on the sequels so they could get the final books right. Frank Herbert could not write these books. He is dead. So the choice is NO books or these. I think they have more than enough worth to merit their publishing.
Matthew wrote: "And seriously, be on your guard come the Butlerian Jihad and others in the Legends series."en garde! :D
Mary wrote: "Frank Herbert could not write these books. He is dead. So the choice is NO books or these. I think they have more than enough worth to merit their publishing."Well said. If you want to read something truly unworthy of publishing try BH/KJA's A Whisper of Caladan Seas (short story, can be found in The Road to Dune or by googling) — now there is a real exercise in awful!
My main problem with the BH/KJA books is that they contradict the original books in places. I never expected the writing to be just like Frank Herbert's, but I do expect them to be consistent with the originals.In Dune, when the Atreides leave for Arrakis, someone mentions that it's Paul's first time off planet. Paul expresses some wonder at the size of the heighliner (which is entirely consistent with it being his first time).
In one or both of the Legends of Dune series, however, we learn that Paul spent years travelling the galaxy on board guild heighliners.
I haven't seen any comments yet that respond to the original question: opinions on the Hunters/Sandworms conclusion. So I'd better mark this ...*SPOILER*
My understanding is BH/KJA found the Dune 7 notes that vaguely refer to the menace that was pursuing the Honored Matres finally making itself known, and that it turns out to be some kind of AI entity, and a bunch of gholas ressurect all our favourite characters for the final showdown.
Did this demand that the Butlerian trilogy be written? Not really, but you can see how it would make for a nice bookend - to start off with mention of the AI, then end with it. Frank was never one for caring much about that stuff - he couldn't give a toot whether you ever found out what the Scattering was, etc. he was happy to just vaguely mention stuff and then leave it ... vague.
Anyway, so from BH/KJA we first get this enormous backstory about the AI up front, in Jihad/Crusade/Battle. Which was actually okay. It was your basic pulp SF next to the classic that is Dune, but it was still fun stuff. If you don't mind the over-the-top horror bits I didn't think had to be there, but, so be it. Still enjoyed it. But I have to agree with a review that points out two crazy things, though: is it really credible that *all* the major factions rose from nothing at pretty much the same time? And, look at the relationships between the various key players in these various simultaneous risings - everybody's related or knows each other in some way. You don't want to think about that too much, or the credibility factor loses another couple dozen notches. Nothing much in this trilogy was reflective of how history actually plays out. So don't think about that stuff too much if you want to enjoy the story.
Then we get to Hunters/Sandworms. The writing style is consistent with the rest of their own work, naturally; somehow I'd hoped they'd capture something closer to Frank's tone, but no. I don't mind that, though, that's okay. What I do mind is a couple of other things.
One is that the AI was far more menacing and epic in that first trilogy than they are here. That's not good. You want them to be nastier and rougher at the end than they were at the beginning, otherwise they don't seem like they're as much of a threat and you don't get the same impact in your finale. Sure, you can make the case that they're worse now if you start listing facts (they're taking out planets at will, blah blah), but it's bascially told - you don't get it demonstrated through showing, like in the trilogy, so the impact is weakened. And, two books can't do the justice to the case that three did at the start. Erasmus especially, you have to admit, gets really toned down to wimp status compared to his original portrayal - to the point I felt he went out of character. I can understand slipping out of character when you take someone Frank made and try to make him work under new authors - but we're talking about a character these authors made, so I don't get it. Plus I totally wanted to see Erasmus meet a grisly, horrible end and he doesn't (if I recall correctly - it's been a couple of years for me now.)
Then there's my biggest beef, which is the way Leto II's Golden Path gets written off. That was super annoying. If you want to find an arc that ties the whole Dune sequence together, what about viewing the first three novels as leading up to the Golden Path, then getting the Golden Path set in stone, then watching it play out through the last three? That would have sewed the whole thing together, and it's what I fully expected this entire time. Instead we get this Duncan Idaho destiny stuff. Which okay, maybe you could say was Leto II's doing and it was definitely something that's been worked on for several books. But I really think if you're a God Emperor for all that time and with all that prescience, the strings you're pulling ought to be revealed as something more grandiose than this ghola gambit. Geesh. Someone make me feel better by explaining the big Golden Path picture and how in fact it does play out - please! Cause I totally feel like it didn't.
I still remember exactly how Chapterhouse winds up in the final pages, and I read that a couple of decades ago. I don't remember much more about how Sandworms winds up than what I've said here, and I read it in 2009. That kinda tells me that while it was modestly entertaining, it was pretty ... well, forgettable. Which definitely isn't how I wanted Dune to end.
edit: oh yeah, PS - what was the point of all those big name characters coming back into play as gholas, when they hardly ended up contributing anything to the story?
Mary wrote: "I have read Hunters, but so far I cannot bring myself to read the very last one, so I haven't read Sandworms. I probably will within the next couple of months. You know, Helen Fielding wrote a be..."I know for a fact that KJA does the lions share of the writing. He also does the majority of the press and promotion. The stories read like his work and the rate at which they are produces are in keeping with his output. He doesn't even really write, he "dictahikes", meaning he dictates on a recorder while hiking and has someone else transcribe it for him. And he doesn't even run his work by any of Frank's old team. He just runs by Brian and his own family. So really, KJA writes these books, Brian's only role is to put the final stamp of approval on what he produces since he's Herbert's son and has power of attorney.
I hear this repeatedly from fans of the new books btw, that it's just a difference in style, but its way more than that. It's a matter of content, ideas, and standards. It's also a matter of taking something someone else did, altering it and changing the ending to match up with your own work. That's what they did with Hunters of Dune. They inserted their own characters into the story (Erasmus, Omnius and Norma Cenva) and made the climax all about them, which was not in keeping with Frank's original series of where Chapterhouse left off.
Aside from that, I also hear the argument that these stories need to be told and Frank couldn't do it so they took up that role. One problem with that argument: these stories aren't telling us anything new, and aside from Dune 7, there is no indication Frank ever intended to write them. The Prelude to Dune series tells us backstory which we already know, the "interquels" tell us the stories between the stories, which we already know, and the Legends of Dune series gives us a vision of the Butlerian Jihad which was totally implausible and nothing like what Frank hinted at in his original books. So where's the need? To me, it seems more like exploitation.
So really, I don't see how what they've been doing can be called innocent or necessary. If anything, its wrong and disingenuous, cashing in on Frank's name while simultaneously trying to put their stamp on it. No disrespect to your opinion, I know where you're coming from, but speaking for myself and many other fans I hear from, these are glaring issues. We're not condemning the new books out of narrow-mindedness, nor are we saying they shouldn't be written. We're simply saying that the new books aren't anything Frank would ever have written or even endorsed, therefore they have no right to bear the name of his franchise.
C.e. wrote: "I haven't seen any comments yet that respond to the original question: opinions on the Hunters/Sandworms conclusion. So I'd better mark this ...*SPOILER*
My understanding is BH/KJA found th..."
Actually, Chapterhouse ended with the menace being identified as Face Dancers. Duncan recognized them as such, and then the two (the old man and woman) said at the end that they were the result of so many generations of taking on other people's personas, to the point that they developed their own. This was how Frank ended his series, so really, there was absolutely no reason to go back to the Butlerian Jihad and then include them in the series' conclusion.
Here's the relevant sections, just because I happen to have it up somewhere else. The first is from Chapterhouse, where Duncan first sees the old man and woman:
"That thought aroused Idaho’s suspicions because now he recognized the familiarity. They looked somewhat like Face Dancers, even to the pug noses … And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale’s Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.”
And here is the final exchange between Daniel and Marty (the old man and woman), also from Chapterhouse:
"[Tleilaxu Masters] have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them.” “I don’t see why. It’s a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and…” “It’s personas we take, Marty.” “Whatever. The Masters should’ve known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future.”
Matthew wrote: "So really, Brian's only role is to put the final stamp of approval on what KJA's produces"FWIW, Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson described their writing process for a certain short story in The Road To Dune as follows:
"Passing a laptop computer back and forth, the two of us blocked out the story in detail, scene by scene. Then, like team managers picking baseball players during a draft, we each chose the scenes that most interested us. Shortly after returning home from the tour, we wrote our parts of the story, swapped computer disks, and rewrote each other's work, sending the changes to each other by mail and fax until we were satisfied with the end result."
Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "I have read Hunters, but so far I cannot bring myself to read the very last one, so I haven't read Sandworms. I probably will within the next couple of months. You know, Helen Fieldi..."There is a perfect solution to your problem. Don't read or endorse the books. You hated them. I get that. You are entitled to your opinion. I liked the books. Not as much as the originals, but I am rarely a purist when it comes to literature. Tolkien ripped off Beowulf. That did not make his books any less entertaining. When I read fiction, my main goal is to be entertained. If I am not entertained, I put the book down.
Mary wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "I have read Hunters, but so far I cannot bring myself to read the very last one, so I haven't read Sandworms. I probably will within the next couple of months. You kn..."I hardly think Tolkien is a fair comparison. Drawing inspiration from classical mythology to write fantasy is one thing. Writing fan-fiction and marketing it as if they're the natural continuance and based on his original notes is quite another. But as I've attempted to demonstrate, this can't possibly be.
I got nothing against other people liking them. They want to be entertained, that's just fine. But let's not kid ourselves by saying that these books have any authenticity to them or the elder Herbert would have approved.
NibbledToDeathByCats wrote: "Matthew wrote: "So really, Brian's only role is to put the final stamp of approval on what KJA's produces"FWIW, Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson described their writing process for a certain s..."
Yeah, back when they were doing Preludes and the Road, this was true. However, Road to Dune was not a story in itself, it was a biopic book with an alternate take on Dune "Spice Planet" thrown in. And when it came to creating the Legends series and the Hunters/Sandworms series, Brian's involvement became lessened. That is even more true for the Heroes of Dune and now the Schools of Dune series's.
Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "I have read Hunters, but so far I cannot bring myself to read the very last one, so I haven't read Sandworms. I probably will within the next couple of mo..."Define authenticity. One day, Herbert's works will most likely figure among classical mythology/fantasy. Will it be OK to rip him off then? Would it have made any difference if Tolkien and the author of Beowulf were contemporaries? How much time has to pass before one can use another work as a jumping off place? Your opinion that the elder Herbert would not have approved of them is purely conjecture based on your own inherent dislike of the later works. He might not have approved, however it is just as likely that he would have been proud of his son for continuing his legacy. You make unequivocal statements with only your opinion to back them up. I do not claim to know what might have been in Frank Herbert's mind. There is one thing that I do know however and that is Brian Herbert knew his father better than either you or I.
Actually, my opinion is based on a studied appraisal, not conjecture. And I've already provided evidence, if you'd looked and seen what I'd said about Face Dancers and Hunters of Dune. What's more I've read the series twice over and read plenty of the KJA remakes, so I'm educated on the subject of the franchise. But, you asked for evidence, so here it is:First off, no indication was made that the Butlerian Jihad was a fight between humans and the robots that had "enslaved them". Herbert referred to it in these terms. First, from the Terminology of the Imperium, the glossary of the first Dune:
"JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) — the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as “Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.”
And what Leto said in God Emperor of Dune:
“The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines,” Leto said. “Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed.”
See? Frank made it sound like a Luddite rebellion, not some Terminator-style war against evil machines. Cymecks, Cogitors, Sorceresses, these were sci-fi cliches that could have been ripped from kids cartoons and pulp magazines, stuff Frank assiduously avoided with his gritty, realistic take on sci-fi.
Second, the point about Chapterhouse: Dune and how it ended. Daniel and Marty were Face Dancers clearly, no AI's. Here's what Duncan recognized about them when he saw them in a vision:
“That thought aroused Idaho’s suspicions because now he recognized the familiarity. They looked somewhat like Face Dancers, even to the pug noses … And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale’s Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.”
And here's how Daniel and Marty describe themselves:
“[Tleilaxu Masters] have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them.” “I don’t see why. It’s a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and…” “It’s personas we take, Marty.” “Whatever. The Masters should’ve known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future.”
And I'm not the only one who thinks so. Here's William F. Touponce's take on the ending, taken from his 1988 book entitled Frank Herbert:
“Herbert gives us a segment narrated from their point of view only at the very end of the novel. They are offshoots of the Tleilaxu Face Dancers sent out in the Scattering and have become almost godlike because of their capacity to assume the persona of whoever they kill — and they have been doing this for centuries, capturing Mentats and Tleilaxu Masters and whatever else they could assimilate, until now they play with whole planets and civilizations. They are weirdly benign when they first appear in the visions of Duncan Idaho as a calm elderly couple working in a flower garden, trying to capture him in their net…”
And finally, in an August 2007 review of Sandworms of Dune, John C. Snider of SciFiDimensions.com argued that it “doesn’t fit” or “add up” that Frank Herbert’s Daniel and Marty are the “malevolent” thinking machines Brian Herbert and Anderson created in their Legends of Dune prequel novels.
The reason? Frank didn't invent them, had nothing to do with that AI backstory, and hence couldn't have ended the series with them or other characters (Norma Cenva) he didn't create. Brian and KJA can claim they based the book on his notes, but they also admitted that to write about the Bulterian Jihad, they had to rely on their own imaginations since Frank left no notes. Aka. Frank couldn't have possibly intended to end the series with characters and plot elements he had no hand in creating. Add that to the fact that the new ending contradicted his own, and you see where I'm coming from.
You want to disagree fine, but you're just offering you're own opinion in this regard and assuming that since Brian is Frank's son, he must have the best interests in mind and is in charge of the process. I once thought so too, but time and the relevant info indicates otherwise.
Now that I feel like a total geek, I respectfully yield the floor.
C.e. wrote: "is it really credible that *all* the major factions rose from nothing at pretty much the same time? And, look at the relationships between the various key players in these various simultaneous risings - everybody's related or knows each other in some way."Thaaank you! And the term that I've heard used for this is "time compression" taking what could only take place over the course of centuries or millenia and compressing it into a few years. And yes, they did that with the invention of the schools and with all the technological inventions. That and the way they'd just openly declare things like "this must be a JIHAD!" or, "We're now the Free Men of Arrakis!" was a constant source of annoyance for me. I mean, who talks like this? Second, its the stuff that makes prequels suck, that overwhelming sense of duty to show where things came from and how things happened, not to tell a story.
Uh, as for your request about the Golden Path - couldn't agree more btw, Brian and KJA totally minimized it! - I'd be happy to tell you what I've learned from my own readings and research, as well as from what some truly hard Dune fans said about it. That is, if you've got the time for a little light reading ;)
I have 17 Dune books (still haven't bought the last one) lined up on my "to read" shelf. I read the original DUNE in the late 70s and it remains among my ten favorite SF novels (novels of any genre, for that matter) of all time. By the middle 80s I'd made it through God Emperor but then sort of wandered off.The BH/KJA expansion piqued my curiosity and finally I decided, hey, it's been SO LONG since I first read Dune, I'd love to re-experience it as an adult, and work my way through the whole expanded saga, so, once I finish one more Isaac Asimov's Robot City: Robots & Aliens book (I know, but they're FUN!) it's on to the expanded Dune series.
I can say I've heard an awful lot of negatives about the BH/KJA books, but have learned to take this kind of stuff with a grain or two of salt. I'm entirely pro-shared world, after all, but also tend to geek out and get really twitchy about continuity.
But most of all, I'm determined (as always) to READ and THINK for myself. It might take me a couple years to get through the whole expanded series, but hopefully this thread will still be here when I'm done.
Matthew wrote: "Actually, my opinion is based on a studied appraisal, not conjecture. And I've already provided evidence, if you'd looked and seen what I'd said about Face Dancers and Hunters of Dune. What's more ..."You are pointing out inconsistencies in plot. I have read numerous other authors who write inconsistencies THEMSELVES into their own series or change ideas mid-stream. It happens. I read the BH/KA books knowing they were not written by FH. I did not expect them to be FH's work, but by a team trying to emulate him. They are good books on their own even if they are different from FH's style. I write myself and know how difficult the process is and I can appreciate their effort. There are very few things that will pull me out of a book other than sheer boredom. I have read most of Robert Ludlum's books. After he died, Eric Van Lustbader took over the Bourne franchise. I did not realize The Bourne Legacy was not written by Ludlum until I was 50 or more pages into the book and the writing style was not meshing (then I actually looked at the cover ). It was not Ludlum, but it was a decent book nonetheless. I guess it all depends upon your expectations. I expect changes and differences when someone else picks up the pen. I don't expect new authors to channel the old one. If I were to die and leave a book series unfinished, the one person I would want to continue them would be my writer daughter.
Matthew wrote: "Actually, my opinion is based on a studied appraisal, not conjecture. And I've already provided evidence, if you'd looked and seen what I'd said about Face Dancers and Hunters of Dune. What's more ..."This was a seriously badass breakdown, Matthew. I read the original series nearly a decade ago, but your analysis made me remember a lot. I completely agree with you about the mega face dancers clearly being where Dune 7 would have gone. The AI stuff is just another Terminator/Borg deal.
Mary wrote: "You are pointing out inconsistencies in plot. I have read numerous other authors who write inconsistencies THEMSELVES into their own series or change ideas mid-stream. It happens. I read the BH/KA books knowing they were not written by FH..."Once again, Mary, you are dragging this into semantics, sophistry, and questions of style. You asked for proof, I provided it, so why are we going back to the "differences of style" and the ethnics of it all over again? And once again, I feel the need to set the record straight on what I am saying because I feel like words are being put in my mouth.
First, these are not "inconsistencies" as you said, they are downright contradictions. They not only contradict the plot of Frank's books, they contradict the very claim these authors make, which is that they based it on his original work. It is this claim which I dispute because its obviously not true, not whether or not people are right to like these books or whether or not they have a right to exist. Such questions seem pointless and stupid to me since they don't effect the outcome either way.
Second, you still seem to be trying to paint me as some kind of purist who doesn't like these books because they are not Frank's. But I've been clear on what I don't like and have provided the evidence you said was lacking. It seems to me the only reason you're debating is because you like these books and don't want to hear them criticized. But it seems inconsistent of you to say I have no proof and its just my opinion when I've provided proof and all you've provided is opinion.
And I am an author too, btw. I've been writing science fiction for over ten years and Frank was one of my biggest inspirations. So when I see his work being commandeered by other people who share none of his commitment to hard science or realistic characters and plot, I'm bound to get irked. But ultimately, my problem isn't that his son and a fan-fic author replaced his "style" of scientific and historic realism with pulp sci-fi and cliches. Its that said same people are trying to market it as genuine Dune, claiming that flows from him instead of them, which, as I think I've demonstrated, is clearly a lie.
Steve wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Actually, my opinion is based on a studied appraisal, not conjecture. And I've already provided evidence, if you'd looked and seen what I'd said about Face Dancers and Hunters of Du..."Why thank you, glad you liked it. Now if I could just come up with an alternate ending that would seem faithful to how Chapterhouse ended. I feel that if you must criticize, you better be able to come up with something better... ;)
Michael wrote: "One of the biggest problems with the series was that Dune was meant to be a stand alone novel. Messiah picked up and went as far as it could go."Not true. From what I've read in the past, what's in Dune Messiah originally was planned and included in combination with what is now known as Dune so we saw both the rise and fall of the Dune "messiah" all as one novel. Who's idea was it to split them up? I don't know but I doubt it was Frank's.
Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "You are pointing out inconsistencies in plot. I have read numerous other authors who write inconsistencies THEMSELVES into their own series or change ideas mid-stream. It happens. I re..."The notes they "purport" to have are for Dune 7. You doubt the existence of these notes, but you have no proof. For some reason your vehemence against these books sounds very personal. You have the right to criticize the books based on contradictions/inconsistencies, but I think you are going a bit overboard in claiming that Brian Herbert had no right to write them. When his father died, he and his family inherited the franchise. At that point they owned it and had the right to do whatever they wanted with it. If my father owned a company and left it to me in his will, I would have the right to keep it the same, expand it, change it entirely or sell it. You might not like his writing, his decisions or the outcome, but the intellectual property now belongs to him and he has every right to do with it whatever he likes.
Matthew wrote: "Actually, my opinion is based on a studied appraisal, not conjecture. And I've already provided evidence, if you'd looked and seen what I'd said about Face Dancers and Hunters of Dune. What's more ..."Norma Cenva was mentioned in the God Emperor of Dune in a line or two by Leto the 2nd; trust me I've read every book in the series 5 times or more.
Ricco wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Actually, my opinion is based on a studied appraisal, not conjecture. And I've already provided evidence, if you'd looked and seen what I'd said about Face Dancers and Hunters of Du..."Hey, you're right! Here it is:
"Who has ever heard of Norma Cenva? ... You think a man designed the first Guild ship? Your history books told you it was Aurelius Venport? They lied. It was his mistress, Norma. She gave him the design, along with five children. He thought his ego would take no less. In the end, the knowledge that he had not really fulfilled his own image, that was what destroyed him."
However, she seems to be little more than a footnote here. It was Brian and KJA who turned her into the "Oracle of Time", which was how she came into Dune 7.
Mary wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "You are pointing out inconsistencies in plot. I have read numerous other authors who write inconsistencies THEMSELVES into their own series or change ideas mid-stream. ..."Once again, you're misquoting me. I never once said Brian had NO right to write these books. I thought I was clear about that in my last post. Furthermore, I never once doubted the "existence" of these notes. I said I doubted very much they based the conclusion on them! And I demonstrated why.
Incidentally, I'm not taking this personally anymore than you are. You've been defending your point of view, I've been defending mine. You've been passionate, which I admire, and so have I. Really, the only thing I'm frustrated with is the fact that you keep repeating yourself and claiming I'm saying things I'm not. YOU'RE the one making this about his son and the right of inheritance.
I'm also frustrated with the fact that you keep putting the burden of proof on me. I've made my statements, I've backed them up. And I don't think I could possibly be more clear. You might not be satisfied with the proof, but that doesn't mean its not true. So... are you willing to do the same. Back up your statements?
Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mary wrote: "You are pointing out inconsistencies in plot. I have read numerous other authors who write inconsistencies THEMSELVES into their own series or change ideas..."Michael: Respectfully - I do not care about your proof as it is a non-issue for me. As I stated earlier, we all have expectations. You obviously had different expectations of the books than I did. I never expect someone who takes on the writing of a previous author to be perfectly in synch with that author. I expect them to try and maintain some character consistency, but I do not expect a carbon copy of the original author. I have never thought that the Machine War Books or the House Books were Frank's. My husband and I have discussed this a good deal. We felt that BH/KA used those prequels to "practice" for the real thing - Dune 7. I read to be entertained. If a book does not entertain me I put it down. Obviously you have some real problems with the books. You have that right. But your reasons are not enough for ME to take issue with the books. I am also sorry if you are getting frustrated with me. I am an attorney so it is in my nature to shift the burden .
I am also a big Jane Austen fan. I have read about 75% of the Pride and Prejudice "sequels" out there. None of the contemporary authors writes just like Jane. In fact, those who try to write just like her seem to write the worst books (too stilted in my opinion). In trying so hard to become Jane, they lose their own unique voice as a writer. However the largest criticism of these books is - "she doesn't write like Jane Austen." Of course "she" doesn't. "She" is not Jane Austen. Since I do not expect a contemporary author to write like Jane Austen, I am generally not disappointed with their efforts. I just think your expectations of the books were very different from mine.
Names Matt, Mary. And you know what, let's call a truce. You like what you like, I like what I like. To be fair, you asked for the proof though and I really don't see this being about expectations, it was about being honest and true with the fans, which I feel they didn't do. But whatever, you're right, let's move on...
R. Michael wrote: "Michael wrote: "One of the biggest problems with the series was that Dune was meant to be a stand alone novel. Messiah picked up and went as far as it could go."Not true. From what I've read in ..."
I believe you're right. Frank mentioned in a preamble to Dune that elements of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were part of his original manuscript. I'd say it was the editors who told him to chop it up and dole it out. What else I've heard says that books 4, 5, and 6 were the publishers idea. "You know, this is a cash cow, let's keep milking it"?
Matthew wrote: "Names Matt, Mary. And you know what, let's call a truce. You like what you like, I like what I like. To be fair, you asked for the proof though and I really don't see this being about expectations,..."I will move on after this . I asked for proof that Brian Herbert did not have any notes from his father. There is no proof to substantiate this - merely conjecture. As a fan and one who has read the original Dune books many times, I was not disappointed, nor did I feel they were dishonest. Apparently quite a few other fans agree with me since the BH/KA books sold quite well. If this issue is not about expectations, then what is it? You claim they were dishonest with their fans, so I am assuming that your expectation was honesty with the fans. In your opinion, those expectations were not met.
In all the criticisms and praises that I've read both here and at Amazon and many other places, I've never heard anyone mention the possibility that when Brian and Kevin came upon the notes left behind by Frank they had found the very characters in those notes which they then wrote about in the two books of "Dune 7" and that when they went about to write the trilogy for The Butlerian Jihad they put those characters in the places where they would have been for that story in preparation for when they would have to write about what Frank had left them to write about the very same characters in the conclusion, all just to set things up for that conclusion.I've read in interviews where they've both said that they had come across the notes while they were planning the first trilogy. Let's not forget that the first trilogy they did wasn't for The Butlerian Jihad, but for the Houses. They did the Butlerian Jihad trilogy later.
How much info in any of the books is specific to notes from Frank, and how much is stuff Brian and Kevin had to create and write in to "flesh out" the ideas Frank left behind is purely conjecture on everyone's part - folks that like what's come out over the past decade and a half, and those that don't alike.
The bottom line is that Frank is an author, just like a bunch of other authors (J.R.R. Tolkien, Robert Jordan, the recently departed Anne McCaffrey, and Isaac Asimov to name a few), who died with ideas left unwritten into book form or a rich universe with plenty of room for ideas to sprout forth, Brian and Kevin are authors, just like a bunch of other authors (Christopher Tolkien, Brandon Sanderson, Todd McCaffrey, and too many to mention for Asimov), that have taken over the reigns of the departed author to keep the stories new and fresh and very much alive.
Some of these authors are children of the prime author, while others were not at all related but were talented fans with much respect for the source material that were handpicked. In this case, we have both - a son, and a talented fan which was handpicked by the son.
Frankly, I'm still making my way through all of the novels by all three authors as I only started reading Dune a couple of years back. Plot points have been "spoiled" for me many times by well meaning people that didn't know I hadn't read certain stories yet, and by rude people that just want to spout how much they didn't like the conclusion Brian and Kevin wrote based off of Frank's notes. As such, at this point I'm reading them to enjoy the journey as I make my way along the benchmarks I'm aware of and have found out that there is still many things no one has mentioned which has helped me greatly enjoy the stories I've been reading.
At some point I'll be doing a massive review of all of the books at one time separated out among each book. I don't see a need to do anything of a review nature before then as my opinion of some of the recent books may change (for better or for worse) based on some other readings. Or it may not. Either way, I'm still reading through them. I've enjoyed both styles of writing, and have appreciated that Frank was able to create such a vast universe to tell stories in.
And I'm sure as I continue reading them, and then later as Brian and Kevin do this next trilogy and then come back to the other two books they have planned between some of Frank's originals, I'm sure that there will be people that love everything equally, and there will be people that will trash talk the "new" stuff and come up with conspiracy theories.
And then, there will be the fans that recognize the differences, realize it's not Frank writing, and in the end enjoy the "new" stuff for what it is: a continuation of a man's legacy done by two authors the absolute best that they can, just as other authors have had to do and will have to do in the future. And that's really all that anyone can ask of them.
David wrote: "In all the criticisms and praises that I've read both here and at Amazon and many other places, I've never heard anyone mention the possibility that when Brian and Kevin came upon the notes left be..."Hello David, let me just say that was detailed and quite eloquent. However, I would debate you on a couple points you raised here. As I've attempted to demonstrate with previous posts, the opinion that Brian and KJA wrote an ending that was NOT based on Frank's notes is not mere conjecture. It's actually a well-though out argument based on lots of critical analysis by Herbertians, literary critics, and long-time fans. It's also based on some gross inconsistencies between what the elder Frank wrote and what they wrote.
Like Mary, you've referred to these as "stylistic", but I think it's also a question of standards and integrity. It's one thing to be open and accessible, its quite another to write pulp fan fiction that is completely at odds with what the elder writer created. At no point in his lifetime did Frank ever take the cheap route and make his books about entertainment and easy sci-fi concepts. He preferred to address real possibilities and ongoing dilemmas in human nature, politics and science, not write about killer robots and evil AI's crushing humans.
As for the possibility you mentioned, some people I've spoken to actually suggested that, I've considered it too. However, there too the evidence appears to be against it. Brian and KJA said openly that Frank left no real notes on the Butlerian Jihad, hence they had to invent that based on what little he said about it in the original novels and their "own imaginations". Hence, everyone in them were their own inventions and had nothing to do with the original series.
Ergo, the story ended with a conclusion that contradicted the plot Frank was building up to with Chapterhouse: Dune, the last of the series. That, coupled with the fact that it involved characters from the Butlerian series, which he had no hand in creating and left no notes on, would seem to suggest that these two created their own ending that paid homage to their own work instead of doing what was promised, which was finishing the series. And that was after they had already cashed in greatly off of Dune fame with the release of six prequels.
And, to top it off, KJA is clearly the driving force behind all this, not Brian. KJA does the vast majority of the writing, which is clear in the style, and handles the lion's share of the press, promotion and tours. Brian's role, which was larger at first, has become relegated to contributing ideas and putting the stamp of approval on the finished product, but that's all. As fans of the series are known to say, the son has a right to carry on the legacy, but if it's not him doing it, is it still right?
And KJA is really not that talented, no disrespect for whatever opinions you might have on the guy. He's made a living writing fan-fiction for a number of established genres, such as Star Wars, Halo, X-Files, Starcraft, some other original works by other authors, and MANY collaborations. In short, he's written very little that was original, and most of it was panned for his lack of writing ability. While commercially successful, he's only ever won a single award and it was for kid's lit.
So really, I don't see how this can be seen as two guys doing the best they can to continue a series. I also don't see how this can be viewed as a mere difference in styles. It seems more like a crass, cynical attempt by a known fan-fic author and his willing victim to cash in on someone else's creation while at the same time putting his own stamp on it. And that's not a conspiracy theory; conspiracies are subtle and underhanded. This seems to me to be obvious given the facts, personal opinions notwithstanding.
Mary wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Names Matt, Mary. And you know what, let's call a truce. You like what you like, I like what I like. To be fair, you asked for the proof though and I really don't see this being abo..."Yes, Mary, I will give you that one. I was disappointed because I found the ending they created to be dishonest. I wasn't saying they didn't have notes from Frank, but that the ending they created couldn't possibly have been from his notes. Meaning, there was no way he said in his notes that the ending would involve evil robots that didn't even exist in the original series, but were instead the creations of the two men carrying it on.
Furthermore, if you want proof that Brian didn't have notes from his father, all I can say is you're right, there is none. But that's for one reason only: you can't prove a negative (i.e. that God DOESN'T exist, or that there ISN'T a colony of Morlocks living deep beneath the surface). But we can always demonstrate how someone else's claims don't add up, how what they say to be true doesn't make it past some scrutiny based on simple logic and the known facts. That is what I believe and what I've attempted to do here.
NibbledToDeathByCats wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Also, I gather from your screen name you're a fan of B5?"yep "
I hate to pimp my own stuff, but I thought you might get a kick out of this:
http://storiesbywilliams.com/2011/12/...
David wrote: "In all the criticisms and praises that I've read both here and at Amazon and many other places, I've never heard anyone mention the possibility that when Brian and Kevin came upon the notes left be..."Thank you!!!
Matthew wrote: "Also, I gather from your screen name you're a fan of B5?"NibbledToDeathByCats wrote: "yep"
Matthew wrote: "I hate to pimp my own stuff, but I thought you might get a kick out of..."
nice
In short, I'd like to know what people were expecting and whether or not they were pleased with BH's and KJA's version. There are some spirited discussions on this topic, I'm hoping to get some thoughts from some fellow fans and avid readers.