Twilight
discussion
Why do you think people hate twilight so much?
Her behavior isn't exactly unique either twilight is a romance novel harry potter was adventure/fantasy.
Heidi wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "That's what I was saying though, it wasn't a "normal" reaction unless she had some prior psychological disorder and depression is in the dsm. "I don't think depression is far stre..."
It was more than depression she was basically catatonic; most of the females in my family are depressed they still try to function.
Jasmine wrote: "They were having screaming matches with each other, it was annoying but I've seen that type of behavior in different schools as well. I'm not saying what they were doing was right or healthy but it just seems way more likely than becoming catatonic. People who engage in risky behaviors to hear a voice...that sounds like schizophrenia, not saying it is but once again how is that normal teenage behavior?"We aren't talking about ideal reactions, we're talking about what people do, and whether there's a place in literature for things people actually do instead of what they should do, so your disclaimer isn't necessary.
Bella was by no stretch of the imagination catatonic. I think it's a mistake to bandy words about indiscriminately like catatonic and schizophrenic unless you have a good grounding in psychology.
People in the grieving process often feel their lost loved ones with them at certain times or in certain situations and sometimes experience hearing their voices or smelling their scent or something similar. I don't think that should be considered enough evidence to diagnose someone (particularly for a layperson to diagnose someone).
I would rather have depictions of people grieving and being sad than this constant idea that everyone should portray "healthy feelings" all the time. I don't have a problem with "healthy feeling" books, if they're well written, but there should be other types of books where people can read about people who are acting "unhealthily". (I put these in quotes, because I think it's debatable what is actually healthy for a person.)
Jasmine wrote: "It was more than depression she was basically catatonic; most of the females in my family are depressed they still try to function. "
What Is Catatonic Depression?
Catatonic depression is a uncommon form of major depression. A person with catatonic depression displays disturbances in muscle activity and/or tone. Here's some more information about this debilitating and dangerous condition.
The symptoms of catatonic depression include being motionless for a long period of time (catatonic stupor) and moving around peculiarly and violently (catatonic excitement). A person with catatonic depression may choose not speak or imitate another person's word or actions.
I also wanted to add that in the books it does mention they were throwing around words like "catatonic". But it doesn't say if she was diagnosed or for sure was. In the movie it portrays that, but in the books its unclear.
Jasmine wrote: "It was more than depression she was basically catatonic; most of the females in my family are depressed they still try to function."Ways in which Bella functioned in New Moon:
She went to school on school days
She studied and did all her homework
Her grades improved
She still did her chores around the house
She could see beyond her pain to worry about Charlie's worries and took steps to allay them
She could see beyond her pain to worry about hurting Jacob
The idea that she was not functioning is not something that is supported by the facts of the book. If someone says that a person is not functioning, it usually means that she does not go to work/school, do a good job at work, and does not do the things needed to sustain herself (eating or performing acts generally associated with living). Perhaps other people have other defiinitions.
Anyone who has ever dealt with low periods knows how much effort it takes to function as well as Bella did. I don't think that the depiction in the book shows someone who should be maligned for weakness. It can even be said that it's a better picture of strength than someone who doesn't seem to feel things deeply (like Hermione's reaction to Ron leaving).
Devin...."RAWR!" wrote: "Clary wrote: "Because its stupid and completely ridiculous"Have you read the books? They are awesome!"
Have YOU ever read any other book? ;) x
Jpucino wrote: "WOW, is there no such thing as reading a book, or a series of books and just enjoying the story without trying to analyze every charachter??? I am an avid reader, have been since I was 8 yrs old, ..."For me it was more that i just didnt like it because i've read so many books that are SO much better, and they dont get even half the recognition that Twilight gets, and that just pisses me off, no offense to Twilight lovers, it was just an epic let down for me, plus i will NEVER get over the FUCKING SPARKLES! I almost had a spaz attack whilst shaking my head frantically and saying 'no...no,no...no no no, what rubbish IS this? no..no...NO!' ;) x
Mickey wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Hermione has developed as a character. The Hermione from first year who was more afraid of being expelled from school than of dying from a 3 headed dog, the girl who was more intere..."Sorry not being rude or anything but, what the FRAKING HELL kind of women are you talking about, emotionally stunted ones? I admit i like my characters to have flaws, that is realistic, but to say most Women or even young GIRLS are like Bella and should even consider behaving as she does, i not only find radiculous but also incredibly insulting to females everywhere, just my opinion, your intitled to yours.x
Mickey wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "It was more than depression she was basically catatonic; most of the females in my family are depressed they still try to function."Ways in which Bella functioned in New Moon:
Sh..."
yea like how many months later??
Clary wrote: "Mickey wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "It was more than depression she was basically catatonic; most of the females in my family are depressed they still try to function."
Ways in which Bella functioned i..."
I like it but i hate it
Ways in which Bella functioned i..."
I like it but i hate it
Rula wrote: "because some people (a) don't think vampires are cool; and (b) people don't have imagination these days."
Vampires are cool, but I just thought this particular saga of books sucked, mostly because I can't stand Bella.
Vampires are cool, but I just thought this particular saga of books sucked, mostly because I can't stand Bella.
Claire wrote: "Rula wrote: "because some people (a) don't think vampires are cool; and (b) people don't have imagination these days."Vampires are cool, but I just thought this particular saga of books sucked, m..."
Hell yeah Vampires are very very cool and I can't really stand Bella either, but she should be better when she is a Vampire (I mean Bella won't be able to stumble over her own two feet) hahahaha
Mickey wrote: "I would say that Meyer did better in exploring the feelings after an abandonment and Rowling just gave us the standard, "strong role model" response that people have come to expect."How about Troll in the bathroom? Hermione ended up there because Ron blatantly pointed out she was annoying everyone with being a know-it-all and didn't have any friends, which sent her to the bathroom crying like a little baby. Where, in order to get friends, she had to check her ego and then protect the boy that made her cry in the first place. That's a lot of complex emotional stuff going on. Not to mention, in year 3, complete emotional breakdown that lead to her having a violent reaction against a fellow student. Yeah, it was Draco, but there's no escaping being an overachiever shot her in the foot - she slept through classes because her body finally broke down and forced her to sleep. And Hermione's biggest emotional breakdown wasn't over her love life, though she had a few of those they were minor in comparison to her year from hell - which was the least active 'war' year in Harry Potter as the villain wasn't a villain.
And Hermiones' strong will was both realistically portrayed as weakness as often as it was an asset. As all traits a person has ban be both. Take house elves, logically and on paper her 'slavery' perception made sense and it made her honorable to be a person who cared about beings she saw in an unfortunate circumstance. But it also made her look nuts to just about everyone, including her best friend, the boy in love with her, and the house elves themselves. Yeah, in a completely logical 'Hermione land' it all made sense, but in 'real' world she was dealing with a being so different from 'human' in it's perception of 'slavery' that her approach made no sense - yet it couldn't get through her strong willed hard head. But by adding this to the Hermione character, this 'love' for these unfortunate beings that had nothing to do with school, nothing to do with the battle, nothing to do with 'being in love' Rowling did what Meyer failed to do when it came to fleshing out & creating Bella, rounded out the character. These are what I call reasons for the character to exist as an independent being of a world.
Another example, I know Harry Dresden of the Dresden files book series is a Star Wars fan. Which adds an extra giggle to those random 'character' moments of his when he's being silly to add a needed catharsis to an intense scene. He's a rounded defined character with likes, hobbies, character traits. What Bella lacks as a character is being a person with any notable character traits, passions, or interest in the world outside of Edward Cullen. I'm okay with her 'emotional breakdown' (even if I think it's a bad example) as long as there is a full rounded character for me to care about. The one reason Jacob Black was a saving grace for me in reading the series was at least at the end of New Moon, I felt like I knew the boy. He might have been a slightly immature boy who needed a good smack upside the head once or twice, but I still think he and Leah Clearwater were the better written characters of the series. Then Nessy happened and ruined everything. As I said before, I still don't like Katniss (Hunger Games) and I'm not a huge fan of speculative fiction that's just exploring a dystopian future for the sake of a dystopian future, but I adore the story of the Hunger Games itself and I respect what Katniss goes through - including her emotional ups and downs - because the characters are full enough for me to care what happens to them even if I don't like them.
Which is bad considering Bella is a protagonist and Hermione is a sidekick, a secondary character in someone else's story and yet I feel she has flesh as a character that the protaganist of Twilight doesn't, Hermione behaves as a character with a life outside of her love-subplot and outside of Harry's main plot. If anyone, Bella should be held up against Harry who was actually active in his own story. Rather it comes to fighting Voldemort or assembling a Quidditch team of misfits his first year as captain. He didn't hide in caves while the fight was going on and play ping pong with the hearts of two people interested in him. And don't give me the excuse about a lack of physical/magical 'power' Meyer, then you're writing the wrong story. Frodo was magically and physically weakest person in the the Fellowship of the Lord of the Rings and yet the writer turned it into the strength that defined him as the hero of his own story without magically gifting him anymore 'super powers' than he started with.
Bella, as the Protaganist of her own story should have more personality - it isn't about me liking her or admiring her - she should just have something that shapes her as the reason this story is being written about her - beyond the fact she fell in love with a Fae (they seem way more like Fae than Vampires). Bella shouldn't be competing with Hermione Granger and a subplot love story in another story, her story should be standing up against a character like Frodo in Lord of the Rings, Katniss in Hunger Games, or Harry himself in Harry Potter. Unfortunately, she comes off flat and pointless in the role of protagonist when it comes to those characters.
addendum: so I'll be fair, the above series all have a plot that's not a love story, they are true adventure/quest stories. But - look at Sookie Stackhouse, in her own book series, there's something with a plot close to Twilight where the love story between a Vampire and a Human is pretty integral to the plot and book series as a whole and still the protagonist, even as a small town very human girl, is better written than Bella. At least in the 3.5 books I've read so far in the series.
I'm going to respond by making a few points without resorting to copying down. It'll just be too long otherwise...I'm not sure what your main point is about the first couple of paragraphs. What you mentioned (the troll incident and the elf crusade) doesn't lead to shameful consequences for Hermione. It wasn't presented as something that she did that resulted in problems. As I've said before, Percy is actually the one who does something or takes a stand that he comes to regret later. (He turns his back on his family.) That's what I call proper "shade" for a character. The troll incident is just that-an incident. The SPEW part never led to consequences that rise to the level I'm talking about.
I think a good comparison to make might be with a female character that does have a strong will, which leads to consequences for her and others: Scarlett O'Hara from Gone with the Wind. Her disregard for the consequences resulting from her choices creates many problems. Her second husband is killed in a retalitory raid after she is attacked. She feels guilt about that (momentarily, which is in keeping with her nature). Her family is shunned because of her refusal to follow social conventions, and she betrays her friendship with Melanie by mooning over her husband. These are serious failings and lead to serious consequences. In comparison, the troll incident is just not weighty enough and the SPEW section is more comic relief than anything else.
In your troll example in particular, you are falling into the trap of creating a role model again. She chooses "the right path", which leads to a teaching moment about the nature of friendship. Her hitting Draco doesn't lead to consequences. The time turner, far from being a device in order to explore Hermione's personal demons, is necessary for the escape of Sirius.
If Rowling were not capable of writing good characters, I wouldn't mind Hermione as much, but it's obvious that she can create good characters. It doesn't matter that she is not the main character. (Neither is Ron or Percy or James or Dumbledore or Sirius, yet each of these is a more nuanced character than Hermione.) But it's telling to me that no female character has the complexity of most of the male characters.
To judge female characters on whether they are good role models or whether they "send the right message" is what creates characters like Hermione and makes them the only acceptable female representative. Does Bella always do the right thing? By her admission, she does not. Do her choices ever lead to serious consequences? Absolutely. Are any of her stances controversial and questionable? Yes. Bella, not Hermione, is a real character.
I don't think that people should discount romance or love as a somehow less worthy or weighty theme than an adventure/quest theme.
I don't agree with the characterization of Harry as active in his own story. Harry had help from every corner possible. He didn't face Voldemort in a regular battle of strength, but always squeaked by on residue from his mother's spell or wand malfunctioning or Voldemort's inability to handle love. He wasn't a strong person, which was never a problem because he didn't have to be, because he wasn't a girl. If a girl had needed all those devices, she would've been considered weak. As far as Bella being active, she decided what she wanted. It may not have been what she "should have" chosen, but she actively made decisions all throughout the series.
Ahm, question:If you are all about the (negative) consequences, where are those for Bella?
Nothing she did ever held any serious consequences for her.
Dawn wrote: "Another example, I know Harry Dresden of the Dresden files book series is a Star Wars fan. Which adds an extra giggle to those random 'character' moments of his when he's being silly to add a needed catharsis to an intense scene. He's a rounded defined character with likes, hobbies, character traits."A better example of a well rounded female character in the Dresden files would be Karrin Murphy.
She is a crusader who stands against anyone breaking the law. She has a bad temper and is quick to anger. She initially doesn't trust Harry because he keeps things from her and arrests him (or tries to) several times. She is a loyal friend, she will fight and die for them. She might curse you out and tell you you are an idiot, but the whole time she will be holding your hand and taking care of you.
Gerd wrote: "Ahm, question:If you are all about the (negative) consequences, where are those for Bella?
Nothing she did ever held any serious consequences for her."
In keeping with the conversation so far, let's talk about her depression in New Moon. Her choice of Edward and the unique problems he brought to the relationship led to him leaving her.
That time was explored thoroughly in New Moon, in which she coped with it in different ways, some that would be considered healthy and others unhealthy. There was also the exploration of the different kinds of love and the sort of expectations one can have of them. In my opinion, this theme was one of the best in the series. New Moon was probably the most introspective book. I think people who consider it a waste because "nothing goes on" aren't considering its themes.
Another example of consequences for her was her desire to have sex as a human, which led to a pregnancy that was pretty horrific in nature. That it was painful to her is beyond question. That it had an effect on nearly every other character is also beyond question. The vampire family was divided, Edward was crazy, the wolves were getting reading to attack, which lead to a split within the pack. The birth led to Bella's death and forced her turning from a choice to a necessity as it was the only way she could survive.
I read the books and I didn't like it. I think it's a stupid story and I can't understand why is so famous!It's just a girl ans vampire that are in love, that's the story. I don't know what is the big deal.
Like Bella, she is SO uninteresting.
Mickey wrote: "In keeping with the conversation so far, let's talk about her depression in New Moon. Her choice of Edward and the unique problems he brought to the relationship led to him leaving her."Wait, didn't you insist so far that her depression had no consequences for her?
And what consequences are there for her regarding Edward?
Far as I hear she gets everything in the end?
Mickey wrote: "Another example of consequences for her was her desire to have sex as a human, which led to a pregnancy that was pretty horrific in nature. That it was painful to her is beyond question."
And again, what are the consequences for her there?
From what I hear she survives an Alienbirth™, even Ripley had to be cloned after that, but Bella goes through it practically unscarred from what I gather?
Dying, if it is what you wished for in the first place, isn't exactly a negative consequence, is it?
From what I read everybody around her had to suffer the consequences, her not so much.
Gerd wrote: "Wait, didn't you insist so far that her depression had no consequences for her?"Where did I say that? Quote me.
As to the rest of your problems, look back at my Scarlett O'Hara example, because I think you are confused as to what I mean by consequences. For example, Scarlett's actions leading to Frank's death does not result into your definition of consequences, but does fall under mine.
Nobody really hated the book until the movies came out. The movies were nothing like the book, and from what I heard, the hate was mostly aimed towards K. Stewarts acting and the all around cheezyness.Once the movies came out "I hate Twilight" started appearing, they never specified into saying "I hate Twilight Movies". However, maybe they have not read the books, but if they have seen the movies, then they already have their minds made up that they won't like it; so why would they try it?
Besides, if you hated the movies, the books are only a small step up, the plot and general concept remains the same. So why would they like it.
Mickey wrote: "Gerd wrote: "Wait, didn't you insist so far that her depression had no consequences for her?"Where did I say that? Quote me."
Uhm, here:
Mickey wrote: "Ways in which Bella functioned in New Moon:
She went to school on school days
She studied and did all her homework
Her grades improved
She still did her chores around the house
She could see beyond her pain to worry about Charlie's worries and took steps to allay them
She could see beyond her pain to worry about hurting Jacob."
However, my main point by that was that I don't see how citing that Hermione's actions have no shameful consequences for her is making any point in favour for Bella, whose stupid actions have no consequences for her either.
Both girls live a perfect fantasy.
Which is probably why they both star in fantasy books...
How does that translate into me saying that there were no consequences to her depression? I don't understand your reasoning here. Because I said she functioned, that means that she did not suffer? Those are two totally different concepts. You'll have to explain this more. The main part of this discussion is that Hermione is a role model character and Bella is not. There's been some discussion about which one is flatter and which one is a better character.
If it is a feature of fantasy novels to not explore weaknesses, how do you explain the male characters of Harry Potter? That should obviously apply to your theory, but I don't see how it fits.
Gerd wrote: "Mickey wrote: "Gerd wrote: "Wait, didn't you insist so far that her depression had no consequences for her?"Where did I say that? Quote me."
Uhm, here:
Mickey wrote: "Ways in which Bella funct..."
Just because you can function with depression, doesn't mean there are no consequences. I first read your questions wondering if you just didnt understand Mickey, or if in fact you were trying to twist Mickeys words around and try to make it say something else completely.
Gerd, are you a guy? The only people I know who try to make something out that I say mean something completely different is my boyfriend. I dont know how many times I have to tell him that I actually mean what I say lol. XD
Mickey wrote: "How does that translate into me saying that there were no consequences to her depression? I don't understand your reasoning here. Because I said she functioned, that means that she did not suffer? ..."If her grades improved, and she still was connected enough to the world to care for others, how was there any consequence to be felt for her?
In the end Bella is just as shallow a conception as you accuse Hermione to be. If you insist that a novel has to explore a characters weaknesses, as you seem to in your last paragraph, then Bella doesn't live up to it either, because nothing she does has any negative effect - everything in Meyer's world balances out by the end.
If Bella is a better role-model than Hermione, then what exactly is it that girls should or could strive for that she represents?
Because vampires AREN'T SUPPOSE TO SPARKLE!!!!
Beth wrote: "Because vampires AREN'T SUPPOSE TO SPARKLE!!!!"
EXACTLY!
EXACTLY!
Beth wrote: "Because vampires AREN'T SUPPOSE TO SPARKLE!!!!"But, it's a whole new idea. She was trying to make a unique book with never thought of details.
Katniss and Hermione are better roles modles for young girls hense making those books more popular
Twilight got too popular, too fast. I read it when I was in elementary school (I'm 16 now) and I LOVED it. Then a few years later it got popular and people wouldn't stop talking about it and so it got irritating. I started to hate it after that. Why do people always do that? It's a book, people. Yes, we know it was good. Read it and leave it alone! You're going to ruin it by making your entire life about it!
How are there any consequences felt by her? Have you read the book? It does a good job of describing the struggle with depression. I don't know, the answer is so obvious, it's hard for me to figure out where you are coming from. If a person is in the throes of a depression, do you think that's a pleasant experience for them? You are thinking that the end is the place where consequences happen and that's simply not true. Consequences are explored throughout a story. You can't say something like, "Oh, Percy reconciled with his family eventually, so his actions had no consequences...". If things work out eventually, it doesn't cancel out the consequences. You aren't understanding my point obviously.
I never said Bella is a better role model than Hermione. I'm saying that having our default status set on role model is bad for female characters. You're not seeing outside of the little box that we've put female characters in. Bella isn't a role model character, her worth for people can come from other sources other than teaching "life lessons".
How about the rendering of what depression feels like? Apparently, (and I thought this was all in the open and accepted until I came on threads like this and found all this stigma and blame still attached) this is still a taboo or shameful problem. People are weak if they go through a period of depression after a loss, because they should be strong, and everyone likes strong people like Hermione. Perhaps someone who is going through depression will appreciate the actual description.
I have an example: When I was in middle school, I read these terrible books by V.C. Andrews (actually, I think this is just a cover name, from what I understand many different authors write under the name). Anyway, there was one story about a young girl whose mother and father are killed in a car accident, and I remember the descriptions of how she would wake up every morning not remembering what happened and how the realization that her parents were gone would hit her soon after she woke up. A decade after reading this, I suffered a similar loss and I remember having that same delayed reaction, as if every morning had a reset button and I had to digest the news all over again. If I hadn't read those words, I might've wondered why such a thing kept happening. There should be a place for reactions that are not picture-perfect and strong. Really, the further characterizations of girls get from what girls really experience is one of the big problems that I have with literature and so many people are just blindly subscribing to this belief that people are better served if they don't see real reactions to life. I don't think it will create some new and improved people, what will most likely happen is that people will learn to mouth platitudes or just turn away from literature because it doesn't reflect reality.
Mickey wrote: "People are weak if they go through a period of depression after a loss, because they should be strong, and everyone likes strong people like Hermione."True that, depressive people are not very pleasant to be around.
Mickey wrote: "Really, the further characterizations of girls get from what girls really experience is one of the big problems that I have with literature and so many people are just blindly subscribing to this belief that people are better served if they don't see real reactions to life...or just turn away from literature because it doesn't reflect reality..."
I won't disagree with you about it being a nice change to see characters in novels take real actions and suffering real consequences from them, but that isn't ever the case with Bella, is it?
So, in essence you seem to be saying that Bella, who is screwing up her life from here to eternity but not ever has to face any lasting negative consequence or is ever learning anything from her behaviour, is more real than Hermione is, who is having to face consequences but happens to be learning from them?
Did I get that right?
Gerd wrote: "So, in essence you seem to be saying that Bella, who is screwing up her life from here to eternity but not ever has to face any lasting negative consequence or is ever learning anything from her behaviour, is more real than Hermione is, who is having to face consequences but happens to be learning from them?Did I get that right?"
Nope, reread my last post. I'm not spending time retyping.
So then your point is that characters should show real reactions, like, say, hiding in the bathroom and crying when feeling hurt?
I don't have a problem with Hermione crying in the bathroom. When did I say that I did? Quote me on that. Other people have used the negative term "crying like a little baby", but that was not me. In fact, I don't believe that I mentioned the troll incident at all in my last post. Are you saying that she's not a role model because she cried when she was eleven?
No, but you seemed disregard the incident counting as a consequence, which made me wonder by what standard you make out Bella as being any more real than Hermione?As I see it both play in the same field, as characterisation goes. They just stand in opposite corners. Hermione is an idealized self-reliant girl, and Bella is an idealized girly girl, neither has to face any real consequences from their characters.
Devin...."RAWR!" wrote: "Beth wrote: "Because vampires AREN'T SUPPOSE TO SPARKLE!!!!"But, it's a whole new idea. She was trying to make a unique book with never thought of details."
Fair enough, it's just my opinion :)
Gerd wrote: "So, in essence you seem to be saying that Bella, who is screwing up her life from here to eternity but not ever has to face any lasting negative consequence or is ever learning anything from her behaviour, is more real than Hermione is, who is having to face consequences but happens to be learning from them?Did I get that right? "
Wow, you really like twisting around words don't you? You know, you did that with me too. Tryed to convince me that when people curl up into the ball (which I do when Im cold) its the equivalent of wahhhhh! Which I just thought it ment - I'm cold. Who knew?
Gerd wrote: "No, but you seemed disregard the incident counting as a consequence, which made me wonder by what standard you make out Bella as being any more real than Hermione?As I see it both play in the sam..."
WHY is everyone comparing Twilight to Harry Potter?, they have NOTHING in common, there are no SPARKLES or emo vamps in Harry Potter, therefore Harry Potter WINS, end of. ;)xxx
Also Hermione is a role model for smart girls, saying it is ok to like learning, Bella is just a whiny co-dependant twit with no personality or any individualism, and if thats what you like in a heroine then thats fine, but i just happen to prefer that mine have 1-a backbone 2-kick-ass skills 3-a brain/mind of their own xxx
BridieJDRAGON wrote: "WHY is everyone comparing Twilight to Harry Potter, they have NOTHING in common, there is no SPARKLES in Harry Potter, therefore Harry Potter WINS, end of. xxx"You forgot to contrast the other side. They are both awesome series.
Devin...."RAWR!" wrote: "BridieJDRAGON wrote: "WHY is everyone comparing Twilight to Harry Potter, they have NOTHING in common, there is no SPARKLES in Harry Potter, therefore Harry Potter WINS, end of. xxx"
You forgot to..."
I have to say Harry Potter is the better of the two (in my opinion) Because at least you learn something in Harry Potter. All you learn in Twilight is you have to have a Boyfriend/girlfriend
You forgot to..."
I have to say Harry Potter is the better of the two (in my opinion) Because at least you learn something in Harry Potter. All you learn in Twilight is you have to have a Boyfriend/girlfriend
Gerd wrote:"No, but you seemed disregard the incident counting as a consequence, which made me wonder by what standard you make out Bella as being any more real than Hermione?As I see it both play in the same field, as characterisation goes. They just stand in opposite corners. Hermione is an idealized self-reliant girl, and Bella is an idealized girly girl, neither has to face any real consequences from their characters."
Bella has certainly never been portrayed as a girly girl before. Do you know what that means?
Do you consider crying in the bathroom when you're eleven as a consequence? That explains a lot. You and I have different ideas of weaknesses. The word consequence was brought up because I felt people were giving me examples of Hermione having weaknesses that didn't rise to the level of other HP characters. There is a difference, in my opinion, between a weakness and a trait. A weakness is something someone has that causes them to make choices that leads to something regrettable. Many male HP characters have this, but I've already mentioned them, so I won't do it again. A trait might be thought of as negative, but it doesn't rise to the level of a weakness, because it doesn't lead to consequences. This is my argument. I'm not sure what yours is, besides willfully misunderstanding my points, you don't seem to be bringing in your own argument.
Generally, going through a depression and breaking ribs and a pelvis would rise the the level of a negative consequence. Apparently, you think that this is somehow equivalent to crying in a bathroom, which seems a little strange to me, but that's a small point.
I think you have a mistaken impression on what, in this day and age, is considered an ideal image for women. The ideal woman is strong, independent and powerful. Look at how women are portrayed in the media and you will see this message played out. Hermione doesn't have any depth past this characterization. She, in contrast to Harry and Ron, is always strong, always powerful, always independent, because she could not be a role model for girls without evidencing these characteristics. Her being a role model prevents her from having a more nuanced character, because she cannot have a real weakness.
Most of the problems with Bella has to do with her rejection of this role model, always strong, always powerful, always independent characterization. She acts like a real person, like a male character and people react to that. She's not idealized. That's the problem.
Ok if no one else is going to say it i will, please everyone CALM THE FUCK DOWN! Stop arguing about Bella, she is not a good heroine, even people who love the books admit they dont like Bella, so it's all as cool as Ben and Jerry's ice cream ok ;) xxx
Like almost everyone here, I agree with the theory that people hate twilight cause that supposedly makes you cool. I don't hate the books, in fact, after reading the first book, I wanted to read the rest(even though I got my friend to tell me what happened). The writing is good. The story is bad. Mostly because it's just too perfect to be possible. Everything's just so convenient. Even the evil vampires weren't scary and it was obvious from the start that Edward and Bella's eternal love would be enough to thwart them. The only believable plotline was Jacob's and that was thrown to the dogs when the author decided to make him fall in love with a baby. A baby.I'm sorry but that just killed any and all respect I had for the books. Also, most people probably didn't enjoy Bella's constant rambling about how hot Edward was and why were so many guys were into her? monologues. And, Edward was in no way the bad boy type, he was kind of a sissy. That kind of thing is usually a major turn-off.
Aamrah wrote: "Like almost everyone here, I agree with the theory that people hate twilight cause that supposedly makes you cool. I don't hate the books, in fact, after reading the first book, I wanted to read th..."YOU just took the fraking words right out of my mentalistic brian xxx ;)
SORRY MICKEY! I'm usually on my phone so the picture is tiny. I apologize for assuming.
Mickey wrote: "Generally, going through a depression and breaking ribs and a pelvis would rise the the level of a negative consequence."Bella got something she wanted out of the whole depression, so being all depressed about her missing boyfriend and acting dangerous isn't a negative consequence by the character's perception. In fact, like everything in the saga, it's giving her exactly what she wants. And 'brush with death' eventually caused Alice to come get her and bring her to her boy toy, every consequence of her very stupid choices - minus the actual broken bones - was pretty much positive. Even the Volturi just decided in the end she was special and that Eddie should turn her into a fae --- I mean vampire, which is, wow, what she wanted anyway. The only negative about it was the temporary broken ribs, no real examination of self that maybe said 'Edward isn't worth breaking my body.' In contrast, she was simply thrilled to find a 'solution' to missing him.
Where as yes, being told she would be friendless forever because she basically was a bossy brat with no social skills is a negative consequence Hermione DIDN'T want to be the result of her knowing-it-all. It forced her to re-examine how she interacted with her classmates. It changed her because the behavior led to something not desired by the character and she improved as a being for this self-examination. She became a person capable of making friends due to a negative reaction that gave her clues as to when too much was too much. In fact, what this completely 'independant' girl wanted was the acceptance of other people. She was completely insecure about being a muggle-born which led to the obsession to read all the books and know as much as people born to the magical life. She's often astounded that even magical born folks haven't either read the books she's read or know the things she knows, because it's a thing this totally allegedly 'secure' and 'independant' girl did to attach herself to other people in this 'new' world. And still, her book knowledge sometimes failed next to stuff Ron just knew from being born/raised among magical folk. Even up til the last book, Deathly Hallows (and her intense study of the Tales of Beedle the Bard, something Ron had just 'experienced' as a child) Hermione is using a book to understand a society she allegedly belongs to, but (like Harry) has been separated from all her life. But unlike Harry, who just falls into a close relationship with Ron without even trying (which is probably why it was easier for them to fight as well, they knew coming back together was easy for them), Hermione always feels she has to fight more for her acceptance as a friend. Harry and Ron just clicked, Hermione was always working for that thing that just came naturally to them and even seem to come easily to everyone who wasn't her. Hermione is very insecure. It doesn't mean she's not strong, she does show strength of character, but she also shows a lot of vulnerability and is forced to change or modify behaviors based on negative consequences to her behavior.
The price of an act isn't based on what happened, but how the character was affected by it and if they gained what they expected from said event.
Dawn wrote: "Bella got something she wanted out of the whole depression, so being all depressed about her missing boyfriend and acting dangerous isn't a negative consequence by the character's perception."What did she get out of being depressed? She didn't gain anything she didn't have before.
(This is an aside-Bella didn't break any bones in the cliff-jumping incident. You read the books, right? I was combining two separate incidents.)
I'm not buying your view of that Hermione is insecure in her relationships or that she shows any insecurities about being Muggle-born or that she was jealous of the relationship between Harry and Ron. You really need to provide more evidence from the text, because I'm not seeing the connection between your analysis and the actual stories.
I'd just like to point out that I had never used consequence to mean something similar to end result. That's Gerd, not me.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Presenting Robert Cormier (other topics)
Presenting Madeleine L'Engle (other topics)
Misery (other topics)
Lincoln's Melancholy: How Depression Challenged a President and Fueled His Greatness (other topics)
More...
V.C. Andrews (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
Presenting S.E. Hinton (other topics)Presenting Robert Cormier (other topics)
Presenting Madeleine L'Engle (other topics)
Misery (other topics)
Lincoln's Melancholy: How Depression Challenged a President and Fueled His Greatness (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Laurell K. Hamilton (other topics)V.C. Andrews (other topics)
I don't think depression is far stretch for anyone without any prior issues. I just googled undiagnosed depression and came across this article in Med page today that says and I quote "Four out of every ten people at work or sitting in the doctor’s waiting room suffer from moderate to severe depression. Prevalence rates for depression are highest among women and older patients with chronic conditions. Yet despite its high prevalence and costly nature, depression is significantly under-diagnosed (<50%) and under-treated by physicians."
One of my best friends was manic depressive (which I dont think they call it that anymore- now its just bi-polar). She was a blast to hang out with her manias. She said every once in a while she would know she was doing bad when she started packing everything and wanted to move for no apparent reason. I just knew to leave her to herself and wait it out the month or two before she was ok again. Because of my personal experience with my friend and not to mention myself coming to grips with being depressed most of my life.
Yes, I think its possible for Bella to have it and her not being diagnosed because of my own experiences (I was 30 when I was diagnosed, and as a teenager I fantasized different ways of offing myself - My parents didnt have a clue). Part of me feels her wanting a change from her mother to her father was part of it manifesting. Leaving everything she knew to a place where she knew no one. Of course its very possible Im wrong. Im just reaching at this point.