Twilight
discussion
Why do you think people hate twilight so much?
I think that people hate the book now because the movies probably ruined the books. It is something for people to hate now. Just like some people started hating Harry Potter books because of characters were wizards and warlocks,werewolves and elves in the book.
Really not alot of people hate Harry Potter
I think that a lot of the people who do hate this book is because maybe they had a girlfriend, or a sibling watch the movie and talk so much about sparkling vampires and go gaga over Rob P. till the point they just want to bash their skull in. Rob P. and Kris S. were pretty terrible in the first movie... so for anyone who had not read the books, and left seeing the movie with a horrible after-taste, will never know how good the story actually was. Stephanie really had a way of making a girl, the reader, fall for Edward. He was what nearly every woman has ever wished for. And, Robert P. and the script of the movie, just did not do him justice.Let me add, I did read the series, but there were a lot I didn't like about the book. I hated how much Bella depended on Edward, and the sparkling, how whiney Bella was, so on. lol. All in all, it wasn't terrible, it was alright.
Yes, I was a twihard and I am aware that I rated it five stars, but I got over twilight now and just wanted to share my two cents with this. I think at first both sides (the fans and the haters)were just normal in essence. The fans liked the book and fell in love with Edward and Bella's love story and the haters hated it because of too much cliche and Meyer not writing well enough for them. Well it is normal to have haters and fans of something because you cannot please everybody. But then, some things got out of proportion, the movie came out and the fans raved on and on and as the hype increases there's just this need to negate the happy thoughts until it just became a fad to hate twilight. Well for me it's just how things work. There will always be a yin and yang to things to balance everything out and since twihards are really known to be crazy, as in literally crazy, the haters are expected to react as solidly as how fans react.
Twilight can also be compared to what's happening to fifty shades' popularity right now.
There's a drooling love story in the twilight series. If you remove "love and lust" from the books, hardly any content is left in the book! Meyer doesn't go deep into the habits and behavior of vampires (until she reaches the PART-2 of Breaking Dawn or as in the Short Second Life of Bree Tanner ). Well, you can talk about love in "a" book but the complete series is maybe too much.
I think it's because most people have only seen the movies, and they are crap.
Uhm I read something interesting: Harry Potter is about confronting fears, finding inner strength, and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight is about how important it is to have a boyfriend. This is a quote is attributed to Andrew Futral, a musician, who actually quoted it from Robin Browne. Which I think is kinda brilliant. And maybe people don't like Twilight because Kristen Stewart is playing the role of Bella. No offence to those who like her acting, but I think her acting is so awkward and she has like a poker face, no emotion whatsoever.
Anna wrote: "Uhm I read something interesting: Harry Potter is about confronting fears, finding inner strength, and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight is about how important it is to have a ..."I think you are right, a lot of people don't like the actors in the movies, so if they haven't read the books, they don't even give them a chance. I think the books are better than the movies, and I can't stand Kristen Stewart.
My dislike stems from the fact that Bella cannot be defined without Edward. She bases her entire ability to be happy and productive on whether he is around or not. It's not a healthy way to be and it's the LAST lesson I want my daughters to embrace. Nobody should need someone so much that they basically go into an emotional coma when that person is gone.
I think that a good precent of the readers of Twilight did not like it because it was un-un-un-unrealistic, even for that genre, and Bella wasn't a very likeable character. Almost everyone likes a main who goes and does stuff. Not just complain about it.
Bella was to self-deprecating.
WOW, is there no such thing as reading a book, or a series of books and just enjoying the story without trying to analyze every charachter??? I am an avid reader, have been since I was 8 yrs old, and this series was great for me! It was PRETEND, MADE UP, for crying out loud. I will admit all 4 books were riddled with grammatical and spelling errors, which I found ridiculous and even irritating. But I really enjoyed the story and the way I could sort of escape into that make believe world. Big deal people, lighten up!
I have one reason for not liking theTwilight series. I do not like the genre 'Harlequin Romance'. There are plenty of books for tweens that I adore, so it's not the lower level vocabulary, the simpler writing style, or the shallower character development that turns me off. That is to be expected in a book for tweens and is found in even the classics. It's the other stuff that gets to me: Over-the-top-romance, overly descriptive and unrealistic romance/sex scenes, co-dependency of characters, vapid female characters. My Twilight loving friends came in two categories: People who rarely read, and people who stick to romance novels when they read. You have to either really like this genre, or not have much to compare it to, to like Twilight. I'm sure some of the Twilight fans' behavior brought on some scorn, not to mention the desire of many to appear anti-mainstream, but my guess is most of the 'hate' is hate of the genre, not the book itself. Don't feel too bad about it, Twilight fans. Many of my favorite books are hated by people. Every book ever written has haters. It is what it is.
Jasmine wrote: "Hermione has developed as a character. The Hermione from first year who was more afraid of being expelled from school than of dying from a 3 headed dog, the girl who was more interested in being a know-it-all who refused to break the rules is different than the Hermione who didn't hesitate to drop out of Hogwarts her 7th year to go and hunt down horocruxes because it was the right thing to do."I would say that Hermione's know-it-all attitude is never treated as a true weakness. She never struggled with it, and that trait never created a situation that lead to shameful consequences. It certainly doesn't rise to the level of a weakness or adds any "shade" to her character.
There was a person whose know-it-all attitudes and strict adherence to rules caused him to make decisions that he regretted later-Percy Weasley. As I've said before, in Rowling's male characters, you can see her talent for characterizations. Why doesn't she do this with her female characters? I think the reason is that the public has gotten used to female characters that are flat role-models. I don't think they're open to the idea of any true weakness in a female character.
Bella is a much better character than Hermione, in my opinion. Bella's portrayal is more honest and realistic than Hermione's. I think Bella's portrayal, far from setting women back, actually advances women characters as people with a point of view, strengths and weaknesses.
Mickey wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Hermione has developed as a character. The Hermione from first year who was more afraid of being expelled from school than of dying from a 3 headed dog, the girl who was more intere..."It was a weakness she struggled with if you think about the reasons behind her attitude. She felt the need to prove herself and worked three times as hard as anyone else, just look at 3rd year. She learned later that her self worth wasn't tied to being the "brightest witch of the age". How in the world is Bella a better character than Hermione? When Ron left Hermione she didn't crawl into a ball and cry for months disregarding the feelings of those around her over a boy and quite frankly Hermione had more of a reason to. She knew Ron for 6 years her level of commitment made sense, Bella knew Edward for less than a year. Also Hermione pushed back her pain to do what was right, what did Bella do? How is Bella a strong female character? People saw Hermione's flaws. To the people around her the only flaw Bella had was her klutziness.
I don't think a better character is the one who shows no weaknesses. Therefore, the idea that Hermione is better because she didn't react to Ron's leaving doesn't really resonate with me. Bella's reaction and her feelings are explored thoroughly, whereas Hermione's is simply not explored at all. Also, I would not characterize Bella as "crawling into a ball and crying for months". She was coping with it in various ways. She also functioned through going to school and taking care of her business. I would say that Meyer did better in exploring the feelings after an abandonment and Rowling just gave us the standard, "strong role model" response that people have come to expect.
Harry heard her cry herself to sleep at night when she thought he was sleeping. She still cared she just didn't let it rule her every thought.
There were months where she was apparently in a zombie like state just going through the motions. That isn't functioning.
Hermione also practically attacked Ron for abandoning them, for abandoning her she didn't forgive him upfront. Rowling did show how much Hermione was hurt by Ron's actions but since the book is not in her POV her pain wasn't up front in bold letters like Bella's was.
Jasmine wrote: "Harry heard her cry herself to sleep at night when she thought he was sleeping. She still cared she just didn't let it rule her every thought."I would not call that a thorough exploration.
Jasmine wrote: "There were months where she was apparently in a zombie like state just going through the motions. That isn't functioning."Bella's zombie state referred to her emotional life. Her grades actually improved during that time. She was functioning. I don't think it's terrible that Meyer chose to explore the emotional toll of loss of a loved one. I don't think Hermione's "attacking" is as nuanced and as full an exploration of that.
So she's not a real fictional person with a real fictional personality unless she basically has a psychotic break?
What real person who doesn't have a psychiatric problem would break down that way over a boy she was "in love with" for less than a year?
Mickey wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "There were months where she was apparently in a zombie like state just going through the motions. That isn't functioning."Bella's zombie state referred to her emotional life. Her ..."
She wasn't functioning according to those around her. I mean for all of those people to have that "wtf just happened" reaction to her saying less than a sentence at the lunch table..she must not have been functional.
It's not a question of time, Jasmine. When parents lose an infant, are they psychotic if they grieve? This was an important attachment to Bella. It was one that she had invested a lot of time and energy in. Deep attachments are not always defined by time increments.
Jasmine wrote: "What real person who doesn't have a psychiatric problem would break down that way over a boy she was "in love with" for less than a year?"I dont think that the period of time she was in love with him is the problem, for me it's that she was out of it for at least half a year or more, and then suddenly everything is totally ok immediatlly after she sees him again, why would someone forgive the months of suffering? to be fair I hate that in every romance book when this happens (along with falling immediately in love and swearing undieing devotion week after meeting)
Mickey wrote: "It's not a question of time, Jasmine. When parents lose an infant, are they psychotic if they grieve? This was an important attachment to Bella. It was one that she had invested a lot of time and e..."It depends on how they grieve and having a psychotic break isn't a bad thing it just means you need to seek help.
Personally to me she seemed over dramatic and unreal.
Jasmine wrote: "Personally to me she seemed over dramatic and unreal."I think you're missing Mickey's point. I don't think he's debating which female is a better role model or better person, his opinion is that Bella makes a better CHARACTER to read about because the author has given her more dimension than JK gave Hermione. There is more to like or dislike about Bella because she is fleshed out more. I loved Hermione, but she can be fairly easily summed up. In any given situation, she will be selfless, strong, & brave enough to so the right thing. Bella, on the other hand could be selfish or selfless depending on circumstances, she might lie or evade, she might be strong or she might crumble. The only constant is that she wants Edward, regardless of consequence. That makes for more interesting reading.
Well, when I read the Twilight books some time ago they weren't that popular yet and there wasn't this crazy fandom. And I loved them, I really did (and I read a lot. Mostly Fantasy and Classics, tho). Yes, of course you can expect shakespearean writing on a romance-tween book but it's not that badly written.
I disliked Edward and Bella for some parts. With Bella, I didn't like her dependance on Edward, as if she couldn't be a person when he wasn't around - even though I can actually relate to feeling completely shattered over a break-up.
What annoyed me with Edward somehow (and also with Stephan from The Vampire Diaries) is his attitude: "I'm a monster.... I could hurt you.... I have no soul... blablabla".
Sometimes I just wanted to slap him.
But the overall story, I liked. The humour, the dialogues, I liked. The setting and most of the characters, I liked.
But my main reason to like the books: they gave me ideas to read. While I read Twilight, I also re-read Anne of Green Gables, read Wuthering Heights, re-read Romeo and Juliet and quite a few more because they were mentioned in the books and I suddenly wanted to read them.
Also I've got some good memories about the series since I met some of my friends on forums about Twilight.
But I know that some people hate Twilight - even thouh I think people who haven't read it shouldn't claim to hate it - you have to know something to hate it!
I can imagine those who hate it (who've read it) possibly didn't get into the love story, which is... I admit it... at some points a bit sappy. Or possibly they didn't like Bella's dependance or Edwards attitude, or didn't like the plot overall.
Looking back, I do notice some parts of Twilight I don't like anymore and if I read it now, I don't think I'd enjoy it quite as much, because it does lack some depth, I believe.
But there are so many good memories I have about this series that I still had to rate it 4 stars :)
Jasmine wrote: "Personally to me she seemed over dramatic and unreal."When I was in high school I saw a lot more drama queens (guys and girls) then I did see heroines. I really can't name anyone I looked up to as a role model in school. I knew a lot more selfish and heartbroken people then I did people who were perfect or shining examples. We have all been everything that Bella has been in her life or witnessed it.
I've been depressed, heartbroken and selfish before. I have manipulated people to get what I wanted. I have also cryed my little eyes out. I'm pretty sure, though I can't think of an example that once in my life I have been clingy. I would think that a large percentage if not all of girls have been thru and experienced those things. So to say that its unrealistic is in itself unrealistic. All you have to do is turn on your TV to see it.
There are people out there who go into movie theatres who kill people for no reason at all. How is it unrealistic for a girl to be over dramatic and sad when shes dumped?
Mickey wrote: "As I've said before, in Rowling's male characters, you can see her talent for characterizations. Why doesn't she do this with her female characters? I think the reason is that the public has gotten used to female characters that are flat role-models. I don't think they're open to the idea of any true weakness in a female character. ..."Or maybe, Rowling is just better at writing male characters than female ones. :)
Kyle wrote: "Though I agree that Bella's portrayal did open up girls to the ideal of being something other than a strong-willed, powerful girl, I don't exactly think that is a positive thing...."
It's not by necessitiy a bad thing either to say "You do not need to be strong all the time," it's just that Meyer was making it too easy for Bella and herself...
Mickey wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "There were months where she was apparently in a zombie like state just going through the motions. That isn't functioning."
Bella's zombie state referred to her emotional life. Her ..."
Well, I guess it depends on how one understands the term "to function," for a robot she would have done brilliant, for a human being not so much ... life has to be about more than just fluidly going through the motions - as such I would tend to agree with Jasmine that an emotional break down is not functioning.
Katja wrote: "But I know that some people hate Twilight - even thouh I think people who haven't read it shouldn't claim to hate it - you have to know something to hate it!..."
Wish it was so, but people are all too willing to hate something without any knowledge about it.
uhhmmm, please remind me again why this discussion end up with the comparison between Bella and Hermione?? Are we out of topic or what?
Janese wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Personally to me she seemed over dramatic and unreal."I think you're missing Mickey's point. I don't think he's debating which female is a better role model or better person, his ..."
I understand her point I just don't agree with it.
Heidi wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "Personally to me she seemed over dramatic and unreal."When I was in high school I saw a lot more drama queens (guys and girls) then I did see heroines. I really can't name anyone ..."
I've never met anyone who basically shut themselves off for months because someone dumped them. I've seen people dumped before, many times, nobody stayed together long in high school. Most of those people just moved on to the next person and if they didn't they would cry in class sometimes and get in screaming matches in the quad but once again I've never seen or heard anyone without them having some prior psychological disorder react like that. So to me her reaction was unreal and over the top, it was almost like a comedy.
Jasmine wrote: I've never met anyone who basically shut themselves off for months because someone dumped them. I've seen people dumped before, many times, nobody stayed together long in high school. Most of those people just moved on to the next person and if they didn't they would cry in class sometimes and get in screaming matches in the quad but once again I've never seen or heard anyone without them having some prior psychological disorder react like that. So to me her reaction was unreal and over the top, it was almost like a comedy."
Then count yourself lucky that you dont know anyone with severe depression nor have you experienced it yourself. You wouldn't notice them at school, because looking at someone whos doing whatever just to get by could look like any of your classmates.
Heidi wrote: "Jasmine wrote: I've never met anyone who basically shut themselves off for months because someone dumped them. I've seen people dumped before, many times, nobody stayed together long in high school..."isn't depression a psychological disorder?
Morgana_lefay wrote: "isn't depression a psychological disorder? "Yes mam, it is. From Psychology Today it says and I quote
"A depressive disorder is not a passing blue mood but rather persistent feelings of sadness and worthlessness and a lack of desire to engage in formerly pleasurable activities. A complex mind/body illness, depression can be treated with drugs and/or therapy."
Also: "Major depression is manifested by a combination of symptoms (see symptom list) that interfere with the ability to work, study, sleep, eat, and enjoy once pleasurable activities. Such a disabling episode of depression may occur only once but more commonly occurs several times in a lifetime.
Psychotic depression, which occurs when a severe depressive illness is accompanied by some form of psychosis, such as a break with reality, hallucinations, and delusions."
Hmm that sounds familiar.
Why do you think people hate twilight so much? : Because the movie and books are too much of a difference. The books were great. The first movie... not so much. I admit that it was kind of lame, but Kristin got better at acting in the other movies.
Heidi wrote: "Morgana_lefay wrote: "isn't depression a psychological disorder? "Yes mam, it is. From Psychology Today it says and I quote
"A depressive disorder is not a passing blue mood but rather persistent..."
I just wanted to point out that Jasmine wrote that she's never seen or heard of anyone reacting like that without them having some prior psychological disorder - which includes depression, from your reaction on her post it seemed to me like you didnt count depression as such. But it may just be that I got the wrong impression from your comment :)
Kyle wrote: "If all women behaved like Bella did there would be no role-model for girls to be guided by at all. Bella is increasingly needy, desperate, and clingy. Though she may have separated herself from the pack, and portrayed women with their own unique point of view, as you said, I don't think she did it in a positive way. There are too many young children getting a hold of this for Bella's morals to be based as healthy. Because they aren't.I don't think that all female characters should be saddled with being role models and doing the right thing. This certainly isn't expected of male characters. I don't think it has much to do with the fact that this is for young girls. Think about Beverly Cleary's Ramona series, which is for elementary school children. Ramona oftens acts badly and has feelings that are not sunshine-y and sweet. Astrid Lindgren's Pippi Longstocking series features a main character who would not be a good role model. My first example is realitistic, while my second is fantasy. I think these types of characters are perfectly acceptable for children to read.
Hermione is much more of a strong-willed character. She does have weakness though. She may be a smart know-it-all, and is always organised, but there are moments throughout the series when you realise that even though she is smart, she's just a girl. She can't be expected to put up with everything. For exhibit, when Ron was making out with Lavender and Hermione ran away and cried about it. That is normal teenage behaviour. Jumping off a cliff because your boyfriend left you is not.
When did this "girlness" ever lead to an actual moment of shame?
I don't think risky behavior is such a stretch for typical teenagers. I've known plenty of teenagers who've done the equivalent of jumping off a cliff or riding fast on motorcycles.
Though I agree that Bella's portrayal did open up girls to the ideal of being something other than a strong-willed, powerful girl, I don't exactly think that is a positive thing.
I disagree. When I think of the women in life that I know and admire, there is a wide range of traits that I think are admirable. I don't think women should be judged solely on whether they are strong-willed (I don't necessarily think that being strong-willed is always a positive trait. I've known many people that I think their stong-willedness is a result of a disregard for other people and an immature need to get their own way.) or powerful (I don't know if you meant physically, which might have the unintended effect of shaming women who have ever been in a weaker position or if you meant emotionally. Snapping back quickly emotionally could also point to a lack of empathy or true feeling). These are not universal ideals. (Although I think sometimes people think they are, because we have been judging women in this manner for a while now.)
You seemed to have based Hermione's know-it-all attitude as the only trait that could be open for weakness, but it's not (you said "She never struggled with it, and that trait never created a situation that lead to shameful consequences"). Though that particular trait wasn't specifically a weakness, her heart and her ability to love was. She loved Ron, and Ron loved her, but they didn't make the connection until a lot later. But it is still a weakness, still a flaw in Hermione's strong-willed personality. And girls can relate to that weakness because it's something every teenage girl would go through at one time or another.
Well, I don't actually think Hermione's know-it-all attitude is a weakness, I was responding to people's attempts to portray it as a full-blown weakness, like Ron's jealousy or Dumbledore's ambition or Percy's know-it-all attitude.
I don't really understand what you're saying is Hermione's true weakness, that she was emotionally cold? When was that explored? When did that lead to shameful consequences for her?
Despite all the attempts to the contrary, I still think that Hermione fits too well in the little box we have created for female characters. She doesn't struggle with anything. She never does something regrettable or controversial. She's just a "strong, smart, powerful girl character", like the other female characters in Harry Potter.
I think that people who are faulting Bella for not being the right sort of girl should give a thought to whether it's better that all girl characters are portrayed a particular way.
Heidi wrote: "Jasmine wrote: I've never met anyone who basically shut themselves off for months because someone dumped them. I've seen people dumped before, many times, nobody stayed together long in high school..."That's what I was saying though, it wasn't a "normal" reaction unless she had some prior psychological disorder and depression is in the dsm.
Janese wrote: "I think you're missing Mickey's point. I don't think he's debating which female is a better role model or better person, his opinion is that Bella makes a better CHARACTER to read about because the author has given her more dimension than JK gave Hermione. There is more to like or dislike about Bella because she is fleshed out more. I loved Hermione, but she can be fairly easily summed up. In any given situation, she will be selfless, strong, & brave enough to so the right thing. Bella, on the other hand could be selfish or selfless depending on circumstances, she might lie or evade, she might be strong or she might crumble. The only constant is that she wants Edward, regardless of consequence. That makes for more interesting reading."Nice summary! BTW, I'm a woman, not a man. (Why does everyone get this wrong? Mickey is a unisex name, and I don't think I look manly in my picture...)
Clary wrote: "Because its stupid and completely ridiculous"Have you read the books? They are awesome!
Morgana_lefay wrote: "I just wanted to point out that Jasmine wrote that she's never seen or heard of anyone reacting like that without them having some prior psychological disorder - which includes depression, from your reaction on her post it seemed to me like you didnt count depression as such. But it may just be that I got the wrong impression from your comment :) "I think when I hear psychological disorder there is a negative connotation with that, and is so broad that it doesn't get to the meat of the issue. Its like saying I have problems. Ok, what kind of problems are you talking about? Financial? Emotional? Personal? Versus depression. Generally people know what it is, what it involves. So I shy away from using psychological disorder as an example. Your right, I was evasive.
Jasmine wrote: "I've never met anyone who basically shut themselves off for months because someone dumped them. I've seen people dumped before, many times, nobody stayed together long in high school. Most of those people just moved on to the next person and if they didn't they would cry in class sometimes and get in screaming matches in the quad but once again I've never seen or heard anyone without them having some prior psychological disorder react like that. So to me her reaction was unreal and over the top, it was almost like a comedy."Externally, your examples of typical behavior after a dumping (crying in class and screaming in the quad) actually seem to me more histrionic than what Bella did, which is to feel dull in general and engage in risky behaviors (which many teens engage in with no excuse at all).
Although there is a lot of dating musical chairs at this age (sort of like in the fifth book of the Harry Potter series), I don't think that most teens really are as detached as to just "move on to the next". I actually found (again!) Rowling's portrayal less realistic than Meyer's.
Mickey wrote: "Jasmine wrote: "I've never met anyone who basically shut themselves off for months because someone dumped them. I've seen people dumped before, many times, nobody stayed together long in high schoo..."They were having screaming matches with each other, it was annoying but I've seen that type of behavior in different schools as well. I'm not saying what they were doing was right or healthy but it just seems way more likely than becoming catatonic. People who engage in risky behaviors to hear a voice...that sounds like schizophrenia, not saying it is but once again how is that normal teenage behavior?
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I appreciate that comment very much, THANK YOU. Also, I appreciate Morgana_lefay's comment as well.