Twilight
discussion
Why do you think people hate twilight so much?
Whitebeard wrote: "Ahhh, the saint to date. I see why you avoid using your name but rather choose some pompous self annointed title. When rational intellect fails, you then resort to personal attacks. Damned amusi..."Well I wasn't avoiding anything I use The Saint 08D (comes out looking different here though)different places for the sake of consistency, it is also not pompous but an admission of my love for Simon Templar...The Saint...I also never made a personal attack on you.
So now do you not only think that if something is popular its good, but you assume (pompously) that only literary grads working in the writing field can judge what is good or bad?
Are my degrees in Literature? No They are in Computers and business. I doubt most here have Literary degrees but I assume they are allowed to make judgements anyway.
Have I made money in the literary world? Yes, some enough to help pay the rent for a few years, I even One a local award, still doesn't make me anymore qualified.
The argument that something is popular so its good is not an argument but a cop out and untrue. Like I said earlier Both Jersey Shore and Porn are very popular...so they must be good right?
Stephen King has sold a lot more books than Meyer right, so he must be better and he sure is a professional working in the business but here is his quote about it.
"Both Rowling and Meyer, they're speaking directly to young people," he said. "The real difference is that J.K. Rowling is a terrific writer and Stephenie Meyer can't write worth a darn. She's not very good."
Guess that settles it huh?
The settlement is in the fact that millions disagree with your analysis. And having been trained in business, you should certainly understand that the bottom line is the consuming public. It is also possible to find those who will argue that Hemmingway, Fitzgerald, Twain, Steinbeck and Shakespeare were poor writers. Those who can do, those who can’t criticize things they really don’t understand. We'll just have to agree to disagree. As John Grisham once said, "critics should find meaningful work."
Thesaint08d wrote: "Whitebeard wrote: "Ahhh, the saint to date. I see why you avoid using your name but rather choose some pompous self annointed title. When rational intellect fails, you then resort to personal att..."I was tempted to use Stephen King's quote as well, guess I didn't need to. There's also this one...
“Harry Potter is about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight is about how important it is to have a boyfriend.”
N.L. Dufour wrote: "Vickie wrote: "Dufoir, I feel sorry for your daughter because depression can be a very hard thing to overcome. You want so bad to just get over it and be happy but you can't. A chemical imbalance c..."I'm truly sorry. Even though I addressed you specifically, I wasn't really meaning to pass judgement on you as a person, more as you as the idea. I've just seen how people think that you can just tell someone to snap out of it and they will be ok. Even though we know that can't be done, twilight chose to go the opposite way, which many times still happens. I think it opens up a talking point as to what is and is not acceptable care for people. Also, just to address the many that don't like characters that are "weak", I think that is unrealistic for every character to be strong and can handle anything and everything. I like that characters are flawed and real. By the way, I'm sure that you will be a fine parent if you choose to have children.
Whitebeard wrote: "The settlement is in the fact that millions disagree with your analysis. And having been trained in business, you should certainly understand that the bottom line is the consuming public. It is a..."But in order to find meaningful work, you need to sort through the good as well as the bad. Otherwise, how can you tell quality? Also, you are using numbers again as an argument, which doesn't mean anything unless you are willing to look at all the numbers and facts. On the flip side, there are also a large amount of people who dislike the Twilight series, quite large in fact. If you are going to talk numbers, you should really talk ALL of the numbers.
I agree with the saint and carly that popular doesn't always mean it's great or even good. I think everyone is entitled his or her opinion, if I can't criticize book because I havent written one and sold millions of copies, does that mean I cant criticize politics because I'm not one? Or acting in movies because I'm not actor? what opinion can I have then?Dont get me wrong, I liked twilight (see the past tense, I dont think I could read it again so I dont even try so I dont spoil everything I liked when I read it), I even bought the books (all 4 but after the 2nd one I just couldn't bring myself to continue reading), I think I liked twilight because it was one of the first of its genre published in my country and I'm grateful it opened the market here for other such books
Morgana_lefay wrote: "I agree with the saint and carly that popular doesn't always mean it's great or even good. I think everyone is entitled his or her opinion, if I can't criticize book because I havent written one an..." Thank god for Carly And Morgana someone gets it, I knew there was intelligent life on this website :)
I didnt think the concept was that difficult.
Fair enough Carly. But I have little tolerance for anyone who trashes any author when they have little or no idea what sort of investment writing a novel can be. On average, about a million and a half manuscripts are submitted to publishers each year. About 50,000 or them are published and maybe 50 of them make the bestseller list. For an author to create roughly 700,000 words in four novels that construct a continuing story, that get published by an industry that does know what is worthy of being published and not, then to spend weeks on the bestseller lists is truly remarkable. Someone who has never done any of that, has no understanding of what is involved or what is good or bad. They often are just scoffing at something that others find entertaining without any consideration of the process. That is usually nothing more than petty jealously. And more, it is criticizing with disdain all those folks who have the audacity to enjoy something so "mainstream."
Whitebeard wrote: "Fair enough Carly. But I have little tolerance for anyone who trashes any author when they have little or no idea what sort of investment writing a novel can be. On average, about a million and a..."
I totally agree, Whitebread.
I totally agree, Whitebread.
No one criticized mainstream.I Loved Harry Potter and think it was Genius, I read Stephen King, Dan Brown, The Millennium Trilogy etc etc no one cared how mainstream it was, thousands of TV show scripts and Ideas get tossed everyday yet Crappy reality shows keep making it on TV, and great shows get tossed or canceled, still doesn't change the fact they're crappy regardless of effort put forth.
Im certainly not Jealous of Meyer's success I'm flabbergasted by it yes, but you're still saying because she's successful it means we have to praise her, just because she put in the "work", sorry you're still missing the point. By your standard everyone who succeeds should be praised and we should all shut-up and bask in the glory of their greatness just because they succeeded and they are beyond reproach because they made the effort and have fame and riches, and its still wrong.
Thesaint08d wrote: "No one criticized mainstream.
I Loved Harry Potter and think it was Genius, I read Stephen King, Dan Brown, The Millennium Trilogy etc etc no one cared how mainstream it was, thousands of TV show s..."
You make a good point.
I Loved Harry Potter and think it was Genius, I read Stephen King, Dan Brown, The Millennium Trilogy etc etc no one cared how mainstream it was, thousands of TV show s..."
You make a good point.
i think that the reason that ost people hate it so badly is because it seems so irrational. i mean who falls in love with a guy who stalks her, and dreams about drinking her blood. also , which girl falls in love so quickly? i mean, an infatuation, yeah. But Bella was in love with Edward from day 1. it just doesn't make it really romantic. Plus, a normal reaction would be fear but Bella's reaction was her normal reaction - a blank face.( i enjoyed reading it though. it was kinda funny. the first book was the worst but it got better)
I think you have to like, understand or believe in love at first sight to understand the series. This is why I think the first chapter in Twilight is called First Sight.
Ashely wrote: "i think that the reason that ost people hate it so badly is because it seems so irrational. i mean who falls in love with a guy who stalks her, and dreams about drinking her blood. also , which gir..."I hate this love from day 1 in every book not just twilight (and I like reading romance books) but how can you love someone you know nothing about and you just saw him/her? I think you may want them, you can like how they look, after interacting with them you like something but love? (I especially hate when the MC are living together HEA after a week of knowing each other, in twilight they were together longer than that)
what no one mentions is that the authors get money for what they do and with everything we buy we expect something from it, if I don't know how much energy and work was put to make clothes or food or my pc or my house, does it mean I cant criticize when I think it has faults? Everything takes dedication and energy. For university degree everyone had to put lots of energy and dedication to finish, so I can't criticize them because they have a degree and I don't?
Whitebeard wrote: "Fair enough Carly. But I have little tolerance for anyone who trashes any author when they have little or no idea what sort of investment writing a novel can be. On average, about a million and a..."But we aren't talking about how much work it takes to get published, we are talking about the quality of work. What does how hard it is to get published have to do with that? Also, publishers are people, critics are people...all with different opinions just like you and I. When people are critiquing a book, typically they've read it and isn't that enough? In order to critique something, do I need to sit down and think about how much effort it took for that book to get published in order to do so? Or do I need to think about what I just read and perhaps the accuracy of the content given?
When people are critiquing they are not critiquing HOW much work it took to get published, but the content and the result. I mean, it is tough, I'm sure nobody is disputing that...but is that the topic at hand, really?
Ashely wrote: "i think that the reason that ost people hate it so badly is because it seems so irrational. i mean who falls in love with a guy who stalks her, and dreams about drinking her blood. also , which gir..."Actually, the thing that most people don't seem to notice is that Bella was actually afraid at some points, at first, especially if you have read Midnight Sun, Edward actually notices this and also notices that she LIES about this. Several times when she says she's not afraid, she is lying.
But yes, that is one of the reasons I have a problem with it. While romance and love aren't typically deemed logical... the way their relationship is portrayed seems so forced and unnatural, in my opinion. And I don't mean unnatural in the sense of him being a Vampire, I mean it's just hard for me to be convinced that they are in love...
Like you said, it was done so quickly...
BTW how do you know how much work said author actually put in the book, you can only base that on how much work you put in it, but I dont think that its same for everyoneI'm aware that the publishing process is long and hard but still only the author and the ppl who were there during the process know exactly how much work was put into it. shoud we ask every author how much effort and time they put into their work and critique them based on that?
dou you think about how much work was put into everything you come to contact with? i.e. if you go to the hairdresser and you dont like what they did to your hair would you be silent because the person had put a lot of work into becoming a hardresser and getting their own salon?
what r u guys talking about
This is really an interesting debate. I have no dog in this fight, but ... I don't think Whitebeard was just basing his comments on the amount of work, but on the number of steps by editors and publishers before anyone had a chance to see it in stores. These people do know what they're doing. I believe that the true point is that folks who do book publishing for a professional career do know what is good and bad. Probably far better than most of the folks who offer negative opinions. And as someone pointed out, everyone thinks he or she is a literary critic and in reality, they only know what they like or dislike. But for them to presume to offer a true criticism is ... well just inaccurate. You wouldn't go to your local computer store to have a tooth filled, right? I hadn't meant to say so much. I'm done.
Tim wrote: "This is really an interesting debate. I have no dog in this fight, but ... I don't think Whitebeard was just basing his comments on the amount of work, but on the number of steps by editors and pu..."By that argument all books are good, then, because all publishers know what they are doing. Which, to me doesn't make any sense.
Tim wrote: "This is really an interesting debate. I have no dog in this fight, but ... I don't think Whitebeard was just basing his comments on the amount of work, but on the number of steps by editors and pu..."I know it hard and lenghty process but I also think that in publising as in everything else it is not always about if its good but if its profitable, why publish a book that the readers wont like? I'm not saying that profitable doesnt mean good, but I think that most of it is about profits, would you invest into your money if you were almost certain you wont get them back?
Maybe ebooks made it a little easier to get more books out there because it's faster and cheaper, but they still want to make profit so they can pay everyone
you guys are making no sence
Morgana_lefay wrote: "Tim wrote: "This is really an interesting debate. I have no dog in this fight, but ... I don't think Whitebeard was just basing his comments on the amount of work, but on the number of steps by ed..."Exactly. Publishers will publish anything they believe to be a topic of interest whether it is quality writing or not. I believe there are plenty of quality pieces of writing out there that are NOT published (for example, on Deviantart.com). When someone is a professional at something, it does not automatically make them a god at it where their opinion is a fact.
Carly wrote: "Morgana_lefay wrote: "Tim wrote: "This is really an interesting debate. I have no dog in this fight, but ... I don't think Whitebeard was just basing his comments on the amount of work, but on the..."I think it can bee seen on authors that dont get sequels for their books because they dont sell that well
the author of Enchanted Inc, series says on her website that next book will be published based on her sales for previous books (even though they already published 4 books in the series so they must have thought them good)
what r u guys debating about
Jojo! wrote: "you guys are making no sence"At the moment the discussion is that Whitebeard said we shouldnt have negative opinion on book because we havent written and published a series (or at least one book) and that because twilight is a bestseller that it means its good
Editors, Publishers, are not perfect either in fact they are generally just like us and are giving their opinion. Some have said they moved on books to be published they hated because they believed there was a niche for them...for example..YA is popular...Vampires are popular...lets throw this Twilight thing out there and see if it makes money.And it did, that doesn't means its good.
Professionals in any industry are just as likely to be wrong as right.
IF not professional traders would always buy the right stocks
Professional scouts and coaches would always make brilliant draft picks.
Have you ever looked at a QB drafted really high and said something like What the heck are you doing Raiders Jarmarcus Russel is terrible why would you draft him #1...they are professionals, they know better right? Wrong. as I, a non-professional, predicted Russell was a complete flop, but how could that possibly happen they were the professionals who knew what they were doing right?
Every year TV execs pick the TV shows they want and they promptly get cancelled because no one watches...but how could that be they are the professionals they know what they are doing right?
No No NO
they are just people taking shots in the dark, like us
Thesaint08d wrote: "Editors, Publishers, are not perfect either in fact they are generally just like us and are giving their opinion. Some have said they moved on books to be published they hated because they believed..."Yep. They just have a degree along with their experience (which isn't pointless, but everyone has their own view, experiences, opinions, backgrounds...). And if we all read books and we are talking about what WE like, who are publishers to say WE are wrong about what WE like? Nobody can tell me that I am wrong for liking or disliking something, they can go ahead and try, but it's fruitless and silliness.
I am a professional at knowing my own opinion, thank you very much. XD
Thesaint08d wrote: "Editors, Publishers, are not perfect either in fact they are generally just like us and are giving their opinion. Some have said they moved on books to be published they hated because they believed..."Dont forget about ppl not in the etertainment, doctors cant be wrong because they are professionals right? Police doesnt make mistakes and policemen are always good becuse they are professionals and work at law enforcement and teachers are always unbiased and fair because they are professionals....
oh and politics should always do whats best for people (not their own accounts)
if professionals were perfect there would be no mistakes anywhere
i do not like u people because u are mean..... my aunt just died for your info.... jack butts
Jojo! wrote: "i do not like u people because u are mean..... my aunt just died for your info.... jack butts"Thats sad but what does it have to do with the discussion about twilight?
well every time i try and talk to u u guys annoy me
Yes it is good to live in a perfect world where we can sit back and trust every politician and professional in the world because no one is ever wrong except lowly plebes who dont make money doing that particular job...whew it is a load off my mind I had some criticisms of past presidents but now that I know that every decision they made was right I can sleep better...God Imagine I though all this time that Fox was Wrong for cancelling Firefly for Temptation Island good to know I was wrong and Fox got that one right whew.Vietnam run perfect...we meant to lose. Watergate...Nixon did that on purpose, trust me he was a professional...casting Nic Cage as Ghost Rider BRILLIANT! (not), my doctor prescribing me the wrong meds on wrong dosages on 2 different occasions my body was wrong the doctor was right.
Coke and Pepsi, McDonalds and Burger King, Budweiser and any real beer, all is perfect everyone is right.
Its good to live in a perfect world where you can't dislike something because we don't know any better, it takes all the pressure off, by the way its better now that Han DOESN'T shoot first Lucas does know better.
Jojo! wrote: "what i said it right"You are free to not talk to us if we annoy you.
I just dont understand how we annoy youI replied to you and you just say we are mean and your aunt died
Its midnight and I'm studiing for my exam which is 9 houraway and I dont know anything
so..... I'm confused thus the ???
Ladies and Gentlemen Jojo...Twilight's bread and butter...thank you Jojo, I particularly enjoyed the Jack butts(sic) name calling it added a great deal to the discussion, and I am deeply sorry for your aunts passing.
your welcome... but what did i do
This is off-topic but, has anyone read "Firelight" or "Vanish" by Sophie Jordan? If so, do you know what Will's last name is?
oh well thank you!!! and ya it sucks.....
ya i did but know i do not know either thats weird i was just wondering about that!!!!!
I think more importantly it's not so much that it's even about a professional opinion. I mean doctors make mistakes, but you are more likely to ask them for medical advice than someone who is not (hopefully). I think it's more the fact that we are especially talking about a subjective opinion "good" and "bad" quality and nobody is a professional at that.
Marta the Magical Muffin wrote: "This is off-topic but, has anyone read "Firelight" or "Vanish" by Sophie Jordan? If so, do you know what Will's last name is?"Im not sure a last name was ever given...Im not the expert but that is the consensus I just received on a quick ask elsewhere.
there u go again ignoring me jeez!!!
Carly wrote: "I think more importantly it's not so much that it's even about a professional opinion. I mean doctors make mistakes, but you are more likely to ask them for medical advice than someone who is not (..."Correct, and that would be fine, I can hate something others love and vice versa but I dont like being told Im wrong for hating it and thinking its bad writing in this case because someone says so, and especially because that person made money doing it, people make mounds of money for doing bad, or low quality work everyday. That is an indictment of those that choose to pay for bad work as much as the person supplying it but it is still their choice and if they like the work then both parties are happy, but I wouldnt tell my friends its a good choice if I thought differently
Carly wrote: "I think more importantly it's not so much that it's even about a professional opinion. I mean doctors make mistakes, but you are more likely to ask them for medical advice than someone who is not (..."but ppl critique doctors too, what I wanted to say is that even though they are professional not all of them are good, and that ppl judge them based on how succesful is their treatment and how thei interact with ppl and so on,
our vet misdiagnosed a dog and she died so lot of ppl is now saying he is a bad vet (without knowing what exactly happened) but on the other hand you cant say he is good just because he invested his time into becoming a vet and gettig his own practise
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Just because it is a best seller, does not mean the writing is quality. Popular is not always good. Sometimes something is just a fad (which is typically shown when something popular fades away and multiple people that liked it look back on it and think it was terrible). Also, isn't it a bit hypocritical to point out how pompous "the saint" is when the first thing you deemed necessary is to point out that you are a "successful" writer to somehow give your opinion on Twilight being exceptional more weight?
Also, you put insults out there first. Essentially you implied that those who dislike Twilight obviously have never written best-sellers and therefore their opinions don't matter. So again, hypocritical.
And statistically, only about 1 in 800 college grads major in literary fields and would really know what is good or bad in writing. What exactly is that statistic based on? What is your source?
In conclusion, everyone has the right to their own opinion and I find hypocrisy irritating.