Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Freddy from Cotillion - a different style of hero
I guess I did not understand the references to The Bard's words and portrayal of Ajax.
"Beef-witted" must be the counterpart to today's "meat-head". And I still can't find my copy, so maybe it's actually in the Trojan Horse...
Karlyne wrote: ""Beef-witted" must be the counterpart to today's "meat-head". And I still can't find my copy, so maybe it's actually in the Trojan Horse..."Or Heyer's phrase "bacon-brained".
Hana wrote: "Karlyne wrote: ""Beef-witted" must be the counterpart to today's "meat-head". And I still can't find my copy, so maybe it's actually in the Trojan Horse..."Or Heyer's phrase "bacon-brained"."
Absolutely!
Aren't those just great insults? "Hey, bacon brain..." I need to use that one!
Bacon brain is so funny! I like "cork-brain" also ;)
Mod
The impeccably dressed chap, excellent dancer, 'not in the petticoat line' but much in demand as an adviser to ladies wanting to redecorate their drawing-rooms, and as an escort to parties, because husbands couldn't possibly be jealous of him: in fact, the Gay Best Friend ;-)
Which makes it all the more surprising, of course, when we meet him in a book where he gets the girl.
Jenny wrote: "Freddy is an amalgamation of Gil Ringwood and Ferdy Fakenham (Friday's Child) isn't he? Brighter than Ferdy, not as bright as Gil; and of course he turns up again in April Lady as Felix Hethersett...."Yes, it is a bit of a surprising turn that Freddy takes, isn't it?
I too thought that Freddy was a gay friend to women of Ton. Especially since realistically most young men in his position were in the petticoat line.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "I too thought that Freddy was a gay friend to women of Ton. Especially since realistically most young men in his position were in the petticoat line."Wow, I didn't get that vibe at all!
Leslie wrote: "Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "I too thought that Freddy was a gay friend to women of Ton. Especially since realistically most young men in his position were in the petticoat line."Wow, I didn't get that vibe at all! ..."
But what do you think is meant by the phrase that he "isn't in the petticoat line"? One interpretation of the phrase might be that he wasn't looking for a wife, and he does say repeatedly that he doesn't want to marry. But how is one to take the passage which describes even jealous husbands being perfectly happy for their wives to be escorted by him?
Some men (straight men) are just not tremendously interested in women. Venetia's older brother for example or Sherry - they are interested in sport, or in gaming, etc. They spend their time with other men in clubs.That is what I think is meant by "not in the petticoat line".
Jenny Brown in her very useful blog post on Heyer's Regency slang, both real and invented, thinks that 'not in the petticoat line' is a genuine 'Heyerism', that is a term invented by GH. http://lordsoftheseventhhouse.blogspo...Whether real or invented it is clear from Heyer's use of the term in other books that being 'in the petticoat line' involves consorting with loose women. If Heyer invented the phrase, she is likely to have considered other genuine Regency era phrases associated with women of dubious morals.
For example, Cassell's Dictionary of Slang defines a petticoat pension as the money a prostitute gives her pimp or that a woman gives her kept man. Similarly, The Routledge Dictionary of Historical Slang defines the term 'light-skirt' as a loose woman.
In the Regency era 'gentlemen' either took their chances with prostitutes, seduced (or forced) the village girls or maids, had affairs with married women, or went ahead and got married; some finding the above choices understandably alarming, channeled their energies into sport and other amusements. For some men this no doubt became a lifetime habit, for others (Freddy among them) it just took the right moment and the right woman to make the idea of marriage appealing.
Interpreting Freddy as gay seems to me to be transferring an unfortunate 21st century stereotype onto a 19th century character invented by a fairly prim woman author in 1955. Homosexuality was still a hanging offense in the British Navy in Freddy's day--he would hardly have admitted it in polite company!
As modern readers, Freddy could be interpreted as the gay best friend, but I am fairly sure that Heyer didn't envision him to be so. This quote from Kloester's biography is about another book, but still may shed some light:Jane Aiken Hodge asked Heyer's brother Frank if 'The Great Roxythe' was supposed to have a homosexual slant, he replied "Georgette “was totally square and would have disapproved of homosexuals if she had been aware of them when writing The Great Roxhythe."" (Jennifer Kloester's biography of Georgette Heyer).
I think the 'not in the petticoat line' just means what Leslie said.
She did have several similar-ish characters, and yes I suppose Felix Hetherscott is familiar. But apparently Freddie's inspiration really was Ferdy Fakenham :D
Here is another bit from the biography, this is what Heyer said about Friday's Child some 20-30 years after publication: “the best I ever wrote. Perhaps because it wrote itself. Perhaps because it contains Ferdy Fakenham, who not only stole it, but inspired me, years later, to write Cotillion"
an another bit:
"Although Ferdy remained the inspiration for the new novel, Georgette felt compelled to admit that “when I got down to brass tacks I found he was just a little too foolish, and so changed him into Freddy Standen."
@Hana that was a very interesting link! I also totally agree that Freddy needed the right moment and woman, and also that we are putting 21st century interpretations (which is of course perfectly fine to do!)
My sense with Freddy was that he was a bit shy, probably sexually inexperienced, and too much of a gentleman to experiment much with the serving girls or strumpets. And in 1814, one could not walk into Blackwell's bookstore in Oxford and pick up a copy of The Joy of Sex to help one figure out what to do!
Janhavi, that quote from Heyer's brother pretty much seals it for me. Excellent find.
I agree that Georgette Heyer didn't deliberately and knowingly write Freddy as "the gay best friend", and I agree with the interpretation of the phrase "petticoat line" as used elsewhere by Heyer.But the overall picture presented by the complete description of him, and especially as someone of whom husbands were not jealous, could well have been based on men who she knew in her own society, without her being aware of or understanding the implications. Her brother says she wasn't aware of homosexuals when she was writing another of her books, and that is quite likely and credible for her generation at that time. But that doesn't mean that she wouldn't have known and closely observed the whole spectrum of people, even if they were discreet (necessarily given the law then) and she never knew or understood everything about them.
Freddy himself may not have understood why, although he enjoyed socialising with them, he didn't generally desire women. To introduce another modern anachronism, I suspect that he was 5 or 4 on the Kinsey scale i.e. "predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual" or "predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual". (I hadn't realised until I looked that the scale was originally devised in 1948!)
He got to know Kitty better than he would usually (generally, friendship between men and women was difficult then, and rather superficial) and, because he was so kind and was concentrating on keeping her safe and making sure she enjoyed herself, his feelings for her grew without his even realising it was happening until jealousy tipped him off.
Drat HJ...way to kill a girl's romantic fantasies!
Yes, I agree with much of what you say, Hj. But I am happy as long as in the case of Kitty we agree that Freddy does love her :D
Hana wrote: "Drat HJ...way to kill a girl's romantic fantasies!"How? Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean. There's no doubt that Freddy loves Kitty, and wants to marry her. In a way, it's almost more romantic that he wasn't deliberately looking for a wife (especially not in the way that Jack "wanted" a wife) and yet he wants to marry her.
I also find it romantic that he falls in love with her *because* he gets to know her as a person and a friend, in contrast to the "insta-love" one often finds in romances which is often based on looks and more superficial appeal so that one just hopes that the love survives their getting to know the character of the person.
yes, there really is something romantic in that his love for her overcomes his initial disinclination to be married.
Oh myyy yess he was! So down to earth and frank! Freddy was so matter of factly, such a refreshing break from the usual, subtle, almost vexatious heroes!
I love Freddy. He was wonderful and just so KIND! :D
Hj wrote: "Hana wrote: "Drat HJ...way to kill a girl's romantic fantasies!"How? Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean. There's no doubt that Freddy loves Kitty, and wants to marry her. In a way, it's almo..."
But if he loves Kitty and we have no indication of him ever actively fancying a man (definition of male homosexual, right?) then where does the conclusion come from that he is at all leaning that way? Lack of active pursuit of women could come from a number of things, including shyness, immaturity, other interests etc. When a very handsome Frenchman hugs him he reacts with disgust and discomfort, but he seems very keen to kiss Kitty, a woman. To me that means he is actively heterosexual, no ifs or buts about it. He is not aggressively alpha is the only thing that can be said for sure about his sexuality before Kitty (hence the other men feeling comfortable about his attending their wives).
I actually find the insinuation that he was homosexual rather sad, for him and Kitty, I mean, since I doubt they could have a HEA, or not for long, if that were the case, and of course I want them to have one.
Freddy was very hip to social realities. Note his helping Kitty's cousin and Olivia to elope -- another instance of his thwarting Jack and keeping Kitty free from scandal! Helping Dolph and Miss Plumstock was also an instance of his kindness and understanding. Freddy may not have been a Corinthian or a scholar but he was very well attuned to his milieu. Gillie in The Foundling was not obviously in the petticoat line either and had less social experience than Freddy but his sexuality is not in doubt. He was just young ...
Mod
I don't think anyone really thinks Freddy was written as a gay character, especially given GH's recorded feelings (and indeed, ignorance) in the matter. When I described him as a typical 'Gay Best Friend', which I think started off the speculation, I was thinking of a character type and a social role more than of Freddy's personal sexual orientation.
I think Hj was right in saying
But the overall picture presented by the complete description of him, and especially as someone of whom husbands were not jealous, could well have been based on men who she knew in her own society, without her being aware of or understanding the implications. Her brother says she wasn't aware of homosexuals when she was writing another of her books, and that is quite likely and credible for her generation at that time.
That is, she didn't intend Freddy to be gay, but I do think the kind of man she had in mind as a model very likely was, even if she didn't realise it.
I've been told by someone studying the period that Beau Brummell's departure to France may have had as much to do with the relaxation of anti-gay laws there as with avoiding his creditors!
Emily wrote: "But if he loves Kitty and we have no indication of him ever actively fancying a man (definition of male homosexual, right?) then where does the conclusion come from that he is at all leaning that way? Lack of active pursuit of women could come from a number of things, including shyness, immaturity, other interests etc. ..."I just looked back through the thread to see. Without getting out the book to check, I think the best indication is from Jenny: "The impeccably dressed chap, excellent dancer, 'not in the petticoat line' but much in demand as an adviser to ladies wanting to redecorate their drawing-rooms, and as an escort to parties, because husbands couldn't possibly be jealous of him..."
For me, the most telling fact that no husband would be jealous of him. That could be because he's such an honourable chap, but from memory I think the book says that even the most jealous of husbands said something like like: "Freddy Standen? Very well, madam". That seems to indicate something more.
As I said in my message 169, Heyer may have been totally unaware of the implications, but she would have known men like that. And Freddy himself may not have understood the full implications of his general disinterest in women.
As for handsome Frenchman hugging him: if that's Kitty's cousin, when he was grateful to Freddy for arranging his elopement with Olivia, of course Freddy would be uncomfortable. These excitable foreigners and their effusive public displays! Not what an Englishman would do. And given all the circumstances I don't think it's a fair test of Freddy's sexuality. (By the by, I don't agree that the "definition of male homosexual" is "actively fancying a man" -- see what I said about the Kinsey scale in message 169.)
But anyway, we can all interpret characters and events as we want to; the text allows for it. I could entirely believe Freddy (remaining exactly in character as written by Heyer) falling in love with a man, in different version of the book.
If Heyer hadn't so carefully described Freddy as she did, or if he'd been like most if her heroes, we'd have been expecting him and Kitty to fall in love right from the beginning. As it is, it adds an element of surprise the first time we read the book.
Mod
Yes - can we doubt that Freddy would have been equally uncomfortable if Olivia had tried to hug him?!
But let's not forget that he's a fictional character, so speculation about whether he's 'really' gay in spite of any lack of intention on his author's part to make him so is a bit pointless.
Jenny wrote: But let's not forget that he's a fictional character, so speculation about whether he's 'really' gay in spite of any lack of intention on his author's part to make him so is a bit pointless. True. Did Georgette Heyer write Freddy to be gay? No, of course not. She wrote him to be the love interest of Kitty. It'd be a pretty sorry romance if the our heroine didn't end up with the gent because he wasn't interested in women.
Jenny wrote: "Hj wrote: "...As for handsome Frenchman hugging him: if that's Kitty's cousin, when he was grateful to Freddy for arranging his elopement with Olivia, of course Freddy would be uncomfortable. These..."What?!? A fictional character?!? The next thing you'll be trying to tell us is that Mr. Darcy is, too. And Robinson Crusoe! And Aslan! And...
So many fictional characters are more real to us than a lot of the real people we only know by reputation. The authors get us inside their heads, give us their backgrounds and ask only that we suspend disbelief for a while.
@JacquieWell said!
Mod
"
It always amuses me when one of GH's characters makes some remark on the lines of "I feel as if I have strayed between the covers of a novel from a circulating library!". They do it quite often, too!
Hj wrote: "Emily wrote: "But if he loves Kitty and we have no indication of him ever actively fancying a man (definition of male homosexual, right?) then where does the conclusion come from that he is at all ..."I think where we disagree is only in the claim that anything other than active sexual interest in one or the other gender (or both to varying degrees) is an indicator of sexuality. To me, Freddy has only ever shown sexual interest in Kitty, a woman, therefore he is straight (nothing Heyer wrote about him gives us any indication that he fancied men at all). And since it is only a part of our current understanding of gay culture that involves a flare for decoration or attention to clothes, and since it is not unusual for straight men to have an interest in such things, I don't feel like any of this makes Freddy any less straight. To that I should add what someone else had said - he was very young. Not interested in marriage yet, and not interested in going after light-skirts does not seem to me an indicator of actual lack of interest in women, it just shows that he was fastidious and particular.
My comment about the Frenchman's hug only refers back to my understanding of what gay and straight means. We never see him interested in a man (though of course even if he was gay he may not enjoy the touch of a random guy), but we do see him interested in a woman. Ergo - straight.
As to other men not minding him attending their wives - surely that only means that he is not the sort of man to go about seducing other men's wives. I assume you and everybody else knows straight men who can be trusted alone in a room with another man's wife? It only means he is not like Jack, who could not be trusted (see his attentions to Freddy's sister - something which Freddy very much disapproves of).
BUT, of course he is a fictional character, and, to my mind, a great one at that. And of course none of this matters much nor does it hinder enjoyment of the book :)
Emily, you make a good point about knowing men who can be trusted with other men's wives; most men I know can be, simply because they're decent guys, not deceitful or completely selfish. But I take exception to your fictional character disclaimer; Freddy is alive- alive, I tell you!
Mod
He is but bones in the Legerwood family vault ;-)
Jenny wrote: "Karlyne, I hate to tell you ... but if Freddy is not a fictional character, then he may have been alive 200 years ago, but he certainly isn't now!He is but bones in the Legerwood family vault ;-)"
Ok, since I'm not a fan of vampires, I'll agree with you. But, he's ever alive in my heart!
Freddy is immoral in the heart of this fan!
Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "Freddy is immoral in the heart of this fan!"Had to laugh at your typo, Andrea!! But I agree, while people are reading them and caring about them, characters in books live on as though they were immortal (I'm adding a t).
Hj thanks for adding that "T." Anyone as helpful to others without the "what is in it for me" motivation as Freddy is cannot be "immoral."
That was a great typo, Andrea- one of the best ever!
Lol! As long as we are agreed that Freddy loves Kitty and they will live happily ever after I am okay with any interpretation of his sexuality :D
Janhavi wrote: "Lol! As long as we are agreed that Freddy loves Kitty and they will live happily ever after I am okay with any interpretation of his sexuality :D"I think we're all agreed on that!
Those who love Freddy should readThe Mischief and the Mistletoe. The hero is nicknamed "Turnip" and is a delighful beta hero. The story is a fun romp along the lines of a Heyer novel with a mystery but not as well written.
Qnpoohbear wrote: "Those who love Freddy should readThe Mischief and the Mistletoe. The hero is nicknamed "Turnip" and is a delighful beta hero. The story is a fun romp along the lines of a Heyer novel..."I love these books by Lauren Willig. The first in the series is The Secret History of the Pink Carnation. She has a few beta heroes, but my favourite is Turnip! There's a delightful free short story featuring him Away in a Manger: A Very Turnip Wedding Night which should only be read after The Mischief of the Mistletoe.
HJ wrote: "I love these books by Lauren Willig. The first in the series is The Secret History of the Pink Carnation. She has a few beta heroes, but my favourite is Turnip! There's a delightful free short story featuring him Away in a Manger: A Very Turnip Wedding Night which should only be read after The Mischief of the Mistletoe."
Ooh thanks for the link to the short story. I love Turnip. I don't exactly want to marry him but he's so sweet and lovable. I haven't read any of the others but I really enjoyed Turnip and Arabella's zany Christmas adventure. It could have been better in the hands of Georgette Heyer but it was still fun.
HJ wrote: "Teresa wrote: "And I liked it that Hugh was both pleased and slightly jealous that it hadn't been him. (One can imagine years of Hugh grinding his teeth at Jack's attitude and antics, and restraini..."Hugh is a bit pompous but basically a decent character. He is kind and sensible with Dolph. I like the bit near the end where he won't let Dolph get into the cupboard "You must protect Miss Plimstock" he says.
Tishke wrote: "Freddy had me on his corner right from the start. His character is actually more complex than all the other male characters in the same book. I believe Freddy had high functioning autism, his above..."I don't think freddy is autistic. His social skills are perfect. He's clever in his own way, but I don't think his intelligence is of the kind usually exhibited by autistic people. He has a very highly developed understanding of proper behaviour, how society works etc. I don't think that's a usual autistic characteristic. He is a good dancer because dancing was an essential social skill, something he takes very seriously.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Mischief of the Mistletoe (other topics)The Secret History of the Pink Carnation (other topics)
Away in a Manger: A Very Turnip Wedding Night (other topics)
The Mischief of the Mistletoe (other topics)
The Grand Sophy (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Lauren Willig (other topics)Lois McMaster Bujold (other topics)
"Ajax, a commander in the Greek army, is the play's official meathead. Literally. Thersites calls him "beef witted" (2.1.12). ...
In other words, Ajax is ferocious on the battlefield, but he's also not very bright."
So Vincent quotes all the lines which play on this aspect, and on clumsiness. He's so taken up with his own cleverness that he makes the mistake of not seeing what Hugo is really like, and that he is not at all stupid.