Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Freddy from Cotillion - a different style of hero
we must have a thread for Dominic. i am already getting giddy thinking about him.
There was a big discussion about Dominic and Belmanoir from The Black Moth in the thread or folder called Pot Pourri very recently. A lot of people have a big problem with him because of his threats of bodily harm to Mary's person, including the threat of rape. I mentioned that these issues don't bother me in HR because my imagination is such that this stuff (threats of violence) are all in my head/imagination that I accept/tolerate in my world of fiction what I would find as unacceptable in RL. Several people did not care for badass bad boys like Dominic. Also, if you decide to read that discussion, we were referring to him as Vidal and not as Dominic.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "There was a big discussion about Dominic and Belmanoir from The Black Moth in the thread or folder called Pot Pourri very recently. A lot of people have a big problem with him because of his thre..."that is sad. i never though that much negative about him. with HR no one has to worry about such things. she could have made it into explicit sexual scene but she never did in any novel. so it is a bit far fetching to over think on bodily harm or rape.
besides this is the only group which is indifferent to bad boys while many harlequin forums are discussing erotic rakish stuff with passion.
May be I will start reading Harlequin HR? I love bad boys in HR. And you are right. Nothing would have come of these threats Dominic and Belmanoir made since these are GH novels.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "May be I will start reading Harlequin HR? I love bad boys in HR. And you are right. Nothing would have come of these threats Dominic and Belmanoir made since these are GH novels."that is what i really like about Heyer. her rakes are really redeemable and their private life is left to interpretation, good ones. we can think whatever we want depending upon our cultures. it is not shown to us.
harlequin is a big no no to me. i have read a couple and i am scarred for life with their description.
Ewww. I don't want this stuff to be too graphic. Thanks for the warning. I'd better stay away from Harlequin HR. The period detail probably is not good anyway.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Ewww. I don't want this stuff to be too graphic. Thanks for the warning. I'd better stay away from Harlequin HR. The period detail probably is not good anyway."but you have read gaelen fioley right. what is more nightmarish than that.
i checked out that Vidal thread. not many like him. i just don't feel like defending him either. somehow the guy i like ends up on everyone's hate list.this is completely opposite to my YA book discussions where everyone like bad boys with mounting vices.you can argue forever and still lose to their extremely asinine reasoning. it takes its toll on me.
I guess what is likeable in a bad boy with the YA crowd differs from what an older reader reader likes in a bad boy.It did not enter my thinking that there would be a problem with Vidal until long after I had read the book, loved it, loved Vidal, that I discovered by reading reviews on AMZN that he was a problem for some readers.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "I guess what is likeable in a bad boy with the YA crowd differs from what an older reader reader likes in a bad boy.It did not enter my thinking that there would be a problem with Vidal until lo..."
i fell in love with him instantly.there is something about this particularly endearing guy that i have seen in no other. or maybe Mr Darcy.......
Vidal is definitely a chip off of his father's block.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Vidal is definitely a chip off of his father's block."oooh i love Justin too. i loved Tracy so much that i wanted him to find love and he did in TOS. YAY
Well he was not a catch to Kitty any longer as he found out at the end of the book!
Veronica wrote: "Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Vidal is definitely a chip off of his father's block."oooh i love Justin too. i loved Tracy so much that i wanted him to find love and he did in TOS. YAY"
Same here Veronica! :D
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Well he was not a catch to Kitty any longer as he found out at the end of the book!"you mean jack right.
Veronica, Anne is now referencing Vidal's father in the book TOS or These old Shades. Avon/Justin is based on a character Named Tracy Belmanoir, Duke of Andover where he is the villain in the story and kidnaps the heroine and threatens to have his way with her whether she agrees to marry him or not. This book is GHs very first novel was called THe Black Moth. The TOS with the story of Vidal's parent was given this title because characters of TOS were "shades" of The Black Moth. There is a side by side comparison of the characters from both of these book in Wikipedia.
It's interesting that I find Avon to be Dead Sexy, while Vidal not so much. All a matter of taste ... but I think it's the sense of controlled power that turns me on.And like GH herself, I think Freddy is a poppet. :)
I forgot to add that If you have the wherewithal to read eBooks, TBM - The Black moth is out of copyright so it is available free to download all over the web in many different formats.
I think the difference between Avon and his son is that Avon does not take himself seriously-- he is alway delivering these quips. Vidal did not have the sense of humor that his father had-- at least I found Avon humorous in both books where he appears.
I think you're dead-on about that, Andrea! I also tend to like deadpan-snarker heroes, which certainly describes Avon (and not Vidal).
Deadpan describes him to a T.
I also forgot to mention that in the Pot Pourri thread both Anne and I in a discussion about Vidal and bad boys we both expressed that we liked the The Black Moth Villain, Tracy Belmanoir over the hero Jack Carstares.
That is very true about Avon vs. Vidal! Avon didnt take himself seriously, whereas Vidal did and he had such an awful temper! Avon and his dry sense of humour appealed to me more!
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Veronica, Anne is now referencing Vidal's father in the book TOS or These old Shades. Avon/Justin is based on a character Named Tracy Belmanoir, Duke of Andover where he is the villain in the story..."I think Veronica was refering to your comment about Jack in Cotillion... but im sorry if I was unclear.
Oh Dear! I had a senior moment! We were talking about Freddy's cousin Jack from Cotillion, weren't we.
I think so, but to be honest I wasnt following that much because I javen'tread Cotillion yet. I just jumped in when the conversation turned to Avon and Vidal ;)
Oh. I feel better! That means I haven't started to loose my marbles yet!
I'm losing the thread...Bad pun, sorry, but I forget what was said in which thread on this group! Is there another anti-hero in Georgette Heyer's novels who is less likeable than Jack from Cotillion? I agree with those who have said that Vidal aka Dominic, and his father Avon in his various incarnations, both have redeeming features to their characters. if Jack wasn't handsome with laughing eyes I don't think he'd be in the race. He may have been carelessly kind to Kitty when he visited, but I think that was with an ulterior motive given that his later behaviour gives no hint of kindness.
Any other candidates? I don't mean the true villains who turn up in some books, just those who (like Jack) could have been the hero if they were just a bit nicer.
I think Jack is the only character that I've encountered that could have been a hero if he had been nicer. I've read all of the HR except for 4. I think GH wanted to surprise the reader by not making it obvious that Freddy was the hero.
I dont know, but I think Lord Lethbridge from The Convenient Marriage might have been a hero, since he reminded me strongly of Avon/Andover (from the Black Moth). He could have had a redemption story as well :)
By Jove, I think you are right on both points! Lethbridge had all of the qualities of a rakish hero, except he was not nicest. In The Convenient Marriage, I liked both Lethbridge and Lord Rule.
Same!! Rule was a lovely hero, but Lethbridge had potential! I had a feeling you would agree ;)
What about Stacy C. From Black Sheep? Aside from being an awful fortune hunter and trying to elope with 16/17 year old Fanny, he had excellent taste in clothes, very pretty manners and was good looking. I don't care for his girl's name though.
Oh I haven't read Black Sheep yet, but I ordered it yesterday! :)
Black Sheep is delightful. It's in my top 5. Please post frequent updates to let me know your impressions.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Black Sheep is delightful. It's in my top 5. Please post frequent updates to let me know your impressions."Yes please - but in the Black Sheep thread ;)
Ok I will ;) In the right thread lol :)
I have another character who could possibly be hero if he was nicer. Vincent Daracott, cousin of the hero of the Unkown Ajax. Vincent was mean to the hero because when his grandfather's eldest son died, leaving Vince's father the remaining son of Lord Daracott (he's hilarious!), Vince thought he would someday inherit. However, the hero, Hugo's existence was an obstruction.
Anyway, if Vincent were nicer he could be a hero. he is probably good looking and is a well-dressed fashionable young man of ton.
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "I have another character who could possibly be hero if he was nicer. Vincent Daracott, cousin of the hero of the Unkown Ajax. Vincent was mean to the hero because when his grandfather's eldest son ..."Oh yes - Vincent certainly has the makings of a hero in him, if he could get rid of his attitude!
Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "I have another character who could possibly be hero if he was nicer. Vincent Daracott, cousin of the hero of the Unkown Ajax. Vincent was mean to the hero because when his grandfather's eldest son ..."I have to admit that Vincent was in my mind when I asked the question about other anti-heros who could have made it if they were nicer. Vincent is spoilt in the way that Vidal is, although I think he's more unkind. Maybe if he hadn't felt hard done by, short of cash, for so long he'd have been nicer? I think Ajax might improve him!
I agree that Vincent is spoilt and that he is also mean to and jealous of his silly younger brother. Vince's brother was left "an independence" by one of their mother's relatives (her brother?) while he Vincent must rely on his mother for an allowance.
Vince is indeed more unkind than Vidal. In addition, I don't think that Vince is capable of the humility that Vidal has shown.
I did not like Vincent but loved Claude. Vincent was more uptight and hostile.
Claude was a better-natured dude than his brother to be sure, but his sartorial tastes were silly. However, that was also part of his charm! I also like it that his name was Claude. What a funny name!Vincent, was jealous of Claude's money first. then Vince was furious that Hugo was in the was in the way of his becoming Lord Daracott someday.
I can't find my copy of The Unknown Ajax! What in the world could I have done with it?!?
Karlyne wrote: "I can't find my copy of The Unknown Ajax! What in the world could I have done with it?!?"Did you put it with your books on the Trojan War??
Hahaha, Hj, that must be where it is!
I always thought that " Ajax" had something to do with The Trojan War and not bathroom cleaner, but I never looked into the connection. I think Ajax was a soldier?
From Googling: "Ajax is known for his size and strength, so much so that the tag line of a popular cleaning product was 'Ajax: Stronger than dirt.' There were actually two Greek heroes in the Trojan War named Ajax. ... Ajax the Greater was the son of the king of the island of Salamis (Telamon). ... Ajax the Greater was one of the suitors of Helen, for which reason he was obliged by the Oath of Tyndareus to join the Greek forces in the Trojan War. Ajax contributed 12 ships from Salamis to the Achaean war effort."And "The quotations and references to Ajax are all to the character in Shakespeare’s play Troilus & Cressida, which is based on the Trojan War."
Thanks for the info. If Ajax is known for size and strength, I guess comparing Hugo to him is because he too is a large military man.
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I don't think that Dominic thought that he could go on being a rake or behaving badly and expect to win Mary. In his own way he showed humility by admitting to his parents that she was "far above him." Jack showed no humility. I'll take my favorite rake Dominic's arrogance over Jack's any day.