YA LGBT Books discussion
Book Related Banter
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Explicit content in YA books - how much is TMI?
I'm just outside Boston, and my nearest Barnes and Noble has a number of GLBT-themed books. I bought four for my daughter for Christmas, and when my mother-in-law went into the store and, on my suggestion, asked for GLBT-themed YA books, she came away with four others. I don't know about gay specifically (as opposed to lesbian, bisexual, etc.) but they seem to have quite a decent selection. Then again, this is Massachusetts...They're shelved amongst all the other YA fiction, so you have to know what you're looking for or ask specifically, but it's there.
Thanks for steering me in the right direction.
Randy wrote: "I would love to se the movies."Hi Randy, Great to see you here. Google 'Rainbow Boys movie' for info.
I like graphic. As long as it is well-written.
We had another long discussion of this in the thread Why the Young Adult genre rocks (and why it needs more sex!) I can't say we agreed completely, but good points were made.
How about coming at this from a different direction? I have written a story that I am considering putting out a promotional ebook (free). It is about a boy who has his first relationship with another boy while working at a summer camp for the disabled. The main character is 17 and his boyfriend is early college, both are staff at the camp and none of this happens around the kids. As far as explicitness (to be totally clear) there is a hand job, references to a blowjob and penetration (off scene). My dilemma is how do I bill the story? is it adult M/M romance? coming out? YA?
I worry (perhaps too much) that if I mark it as YA it will get flagged for being too explicit but if I label it adult it will miss a big chunk of it's possible audience (given the age of the characters.) I would be glad to share all or portions of the story if anyone is interested.
If the blowjob and penetration are off-screen, and the characters are in their late teens, I would say it would qualify as YA. Some current YA publishers (including Harmony Ink, the new YA imprint of Dreamspinner Press) consider YA to be mid to late teens, including early college age, with milder sexual content than adult.Really, though, there is YA with explicit sexual content, and some of it has been/is being published by the big-time publishers. What makes it YA is the *character's voice* (does your 17-year-old sound like a 17-year-old?) and whether the plot and themes are something a teen would be going through (coming of age, coming to terms with one's sexuality regardless of what it is, etc.) You say this is your character's first relationship, and it sounds like the sexual content is mild as far as what's actually on the page, so I would definitely bill it as YA, but also promote it to adult M/M readers (adults read YA too...)
I just re-read a YA novel from one of my publishers that contains an explicit description of a handjob and ejaculation. And as far back as the early 1980s when I *was* a young adult (well, early teens), there were books identified as "teenage reading" (YA wasn't really a term back then) that contained explicit penetrative sex. So I don't think you need to worry about getting thwapped for being too explicit given what you've described here. Some readers--or, more likely, some parents--might complain, but you can't make everyone happy...
Continuing my previous thought...I just finished first-round edits on my next YA release. It isn't a romance. But the main character Tobias, a 15-year-old boy, refers to "getting hard"; mentions "finishing first" when the guy he's crushing on "touched me everywhere and made me feel so, so good", etc.
There's also a rape scene, which takes place on the page but focuses on what Tobias is thinking and feeling rather than on what's being done to him. (I won't post it here; it may be triggering for some readers, as it was for this author, but if you're curious and I know who you are, I'll share via PM.) And it's still milder than some things I've read in other YA novels.
Rachel wrote: "How about coming at this from a different direction? I have written a story that I am considering putting out a promotional ebook (free). It is about a boy who has his first relationship with anoth..."A lot of YA these days does contain sex (including mainstream books by authors like Alex Sanchez, Chris Crutcher, Robin Reardon...), and the level of explicitness and whether the writing is intended to arouse are really the things that move it out of the YA arena.
Your book definitely sounds like YA to me.
Rachel wrote: "How about coming at this from a different direction? I have written a story that I am considering putting out a promotional ebook (free). It is about a boy who has his first relationship with anoth..."Well--as a non-author here--I would say that you are spot on for YA and to go for it!
Being in the throes of writing my first gay teen novel, the question of what is an acceptable level of explicitness is one I've been thinking about a lot. My own personal feeling is that it's more about the language that's used than the action itself. I think a sex scene can be pretty detailed, as long as the language the author uses isn't crude and that it's all about the emotion. In fact, in the case of a young person discovering their sexuality , this can be extremely powerful. That's the approach I'm erring towards at the moment anyway!
Jessica wrote: "Being in the throes of writing my first gay teen novel, the question of what is an acceptable level of explicitness is one I've been thinking about a lot. My own personal feeling is that it's more ..."I agree - the key to me is actually the focus; it has to be about the character's emotions; if it strays into erotic intent in the description than it's out of YA sphere. But some venues (like libraries or schools) may have some hot-button vocabulary too.
Kaje wrote: "Rachel wrote: "How about coming at this from a different direction? I have written a story that I am considering putting out a promotional ebook (free). It is about a boy who has his first relation..."This story's evolution says a lot about my personal evolution from gay man to trans woman. I was inspired by reading a website called "wilde Oates," which is gay men's erotica. I decided to write my own erotic tale. When I was done I re-read it and discovered that I had spent six pages exploring the boys relationship and two paragraphs on sex. It wasn't even graphic sex. 'sigh' So much for me writing erotica, but it might make a decent YA piece.
I am going to work on editing it a little more, creating a cover picture and then I will release it on Smashwords as a free ebook. I'll repost when it's up in case anyone's interested. Thanks for the input.
Rachel wrote: "Kaje wrote: "Rachel wrote: "How about coming at this from a different direction? I have written a story that I am considering putting out a promotional ebook (free). It is about a boy who has his f..."Funny how that happens. You start out writing what you think will be one thing, and it emerges onto the page as something entirely different. Look forward to reading it once it's released!
The thing about sex ed is that some children think it's really funny when the teachers mentions the process of how babies are made or they would giggle at certain words. Teachers should only teach sex ed if a) they can get the children to understand what sex is and how babies are made and b) if they feel comfortable explaining the process.
I personally do not see a problem with reading novels that have some sex scenes (sadly my parents think that will make me think I can have sex). But if the book is full of certain sexual interations in about every chapter then I wouldn't read it, but I have never read something explict and then went of to try with with a girl/boy.
Some childrens also might be searching the internet and might see the 'Over 18' warning but they would click it anyway. Depending on how sensible and smart the child is, they will probably not go off and do that.
I personally do not see a problem with reading novels that have some sex scenes (sadly my parents think that will make me think I can have sex). But if the book is full of certain sexual interations in about every chapter then I wouldn't read it, but I have never read something explict and then went of to try with with a girl/boy.
Some childrens also might be searching the internet and might see the 'Over 18' warning but they would click it anyway. Depending on how sensible and smart the child is, they will probably not go off and do that.
I think part of the issue is desensitizing - the idea that if younger teens are exposed to ongoing sexual content, they begin to think it is not just normal but expected. There is a fine line between saying "it's unrealistic to have a YA book that doesn't deal with sex" and saying "It's normal for teens to have sex." Sometimes it's hard to get that right. But our society doesn't help by sexualizing everything in sight. I think that a book that handles teen sex issues well is more help than detriment to teens who are working out how sex fits into their lives.
Kaje wrote: "I think part of the issue is desensitizing - the idea that if younger teens are exposed to ongoing sexual content, they begin to think it is not just normal but expected. There is a fine line betw..."At the same time, 16/17 year olds are having sex, so it's pointless to pretend they don't know what it's about. It goes back to what we were saying before about focusing on the emotion. If it's done as part of a loving relationship and in a sensitive and responsible way, that has to be a positive thing.
The rates of STI transmission in young gay men is proof that gay youth are having sex, and they are doing it without education and consideration. I think being overly conservative in what we 'allow' gay youth to read does them a disservice, and is more about our discomfort than theirs. Straight youth are given a million signals and examples of how to conduct themselves in relationships, both sexually and emotionally every day. gay youth have far fewer positive role models. I'd hazard a guess that for many, they have 3 examples to follow: the TV show, Modern family; Internet porn, and YA fiction. Doesn't that make it even MORE important that YA fiction for LGBTQ youth is honest and open?
I would agree with that - but specifically that YA fiction is where they should find, not so much the mechanics and the erotic content of sex, but the emotions, the context and the impact of sex in life and relationships. That's the stuff that should be honest and real. TV and porn are all surface (although the best TV can have some depth) but I believe (as someone who was saved by YA fiction as a teen) that written words can go soul-deep and help readers see the important things.
Kaje wrote: "I would agree with that - but specifically that YA fiction is where they should find, not so much the mechanics and the erotic content of sex, but the emotions, the context and the impact of sex in..."Yep - I agree with that, but I'd also say that it seems that we split relationship stuff for youth into two seperate streams at the moment: physical sexuality is all in porn, and emotional connection in YA fiction. Divorcing one from the other like that is unhealthy at best. I like the idea that YA fiction can explore relationship stuff, including sexual behaviour. I always thought that 'forever' by Judy Bloom was a good example of straight YA fiction that did this, but I've struggled to find a gay YA book that explored the same territory.
Marc wrote: "I always thought that 'forever' by Judy Bloom was a good example of straight YA fiction that did this, but I've struggled to find a gay YA book that explored the same territory. ..."I think there are quite a few books now that put gay sex and relationships in a YA context, beginning with the Rainbow Boys trilogy, and including John Goode's Foster High books, Robin Reardon, and quite a few others.
yeah, you're right. I guess i was thinking of what I got up to when I was that age (if you're feeling charitable, you could have called me 'precocious'). Sometimes I just think we treat young adults as more 'young' and less 'adult' but I'm DEFINITELY not suggesting YA erotica!
Hey everyone, here is the story I was talking about.https://www.smashwords.com/books/view...
I would happy for feedback.
Also I am a little surprised that no one (myself included) has come at this from the legal angle yet. As I was getting ready to put this up on Smashwords as a free ebook it occurred to me that I should look at their terms of service and what they recommended for YA versus adult ratings. There TOS pretty much bans any sex acts involving characters under eighteen years of age. I can understand why, in terms of child porn and such. But it can be read rather broadly. I don't know if it is only 'explicit' sex, any actual sex scene or even sexual references. I decided to err on the side of caution and make both characters in college (and over 18). As an indie author just starting out I am scared to run afoul the TOS on one of the major outlets for my writing. Anyone else worry about that sort of thing.
Rachel wrote: "Hey everyone, here is the story I was talking about.https://www.smashwords.com/books/view...
I would happy for feedback.
Also I am a little surprised that no one (myself included) has come ..."
Isn't it interesting how the internet makes us all bow to US law? In most of the western world, 14-16 is the legal age of consent. I also note some recent YA fiction that is about younger teens - eg: the secret life of Billy Chase series by Comicality. this series includes sexual thoughts and actions from the 14YO protagonist. And it reads as being pretty true-to-life... at least as far as I remember.
It's not even US law. In my state, Iowa the age of consent is 16. But large websites set their policies based on the lowest common denominator. Sometimes they make their rules even stricter, just to me safe. I don't know how strictly the rules are enforced either. It depends so much on intent and how it's read. It also depends on the reader. For a well known author a little controversy might be a good thing. For someone starting out (like me) all it takes is one complaint to get your account suspended.
This is a link to a series of posts I have on my blog about Writing Sex and Violence in YA Works. Of import is that the age of consent (for sexual activity) and the age at which one can access explicit content are not the same. I discuss that here.http://ckennedyauthor.blogspot.com/20...
^^^ important info and interesting discussion ^^^
Kaje wrote: "^^^ important info and interesting discussion ^^^"Thanks, Kaje.
Good stuff. Teens need access to valid info, including in the fiction they read. Looking back to my own youth, better info would have allowed better, less fearful sexual choices. Every teen is on a different biological clock when it comes to choosing to be sexually active. That alone is a factoid many teens never understand and need to. It's both okay to be the kid who's sexually active first as well as the one who waits the longest in any group of teens.
Jay wrote: "Good stuff. Teens need access to valid info, including in the fiction they read. Looking back to my own youth, better info would have allowed better, less fearful sexual choices. Every teen is on a..."Thanks, and excellent points, Jay. Everyone is different -- even as adults.
This is a very interesting discussion. I want to add my viewpoint because it unique because I am aromantic and asexual. Despite not having an interest in sex I try to educate myself about everything.I love reading romance stories, especially lgbtia ones because I relate more to the characters. I am also sexual repulsed. occasionally I do not mind explicit stuff
While I feel that teens should be exposed to this when they are ready. Ignorance does not help anyone. I also believe that kids should be educated about all sexualities. So people like me who are asexual don't have to feel like they are broken for not having sexual feeling . I hate how society assumes everyone is straight and cisgendered. Kids should be free to experiment without judgment and find themselves. Also should not be pressured in to be sexually active or into dating until they are ready. I hate that not dating in high school is seen as unhealthy. While I like using a label to help me define myself they can be so constricting. I'm a firm believer that sexual education should be more inclusive to other sexualities.
I went on a rant and probably just reiterated what has already been said. I would love to hear others thoughts on this.
Thanks for the comments from your particular POV - as I'm sure you saw, it's one of those topics where we will probably never have a full consensus, but it's still interesting to discuss, as we make our own choices..
Kaje wrote: "I decided to pin this thread, because the issue of sex content in YA books comes up over and over - this thread, begun in 2011, is a long discussion which shows just how little consensus there is, ..."Good idea, Kaje.
I've written extensively on this subject.
http://ckennedyauthor.blogspot.com/20...
At the library in my hometown, we were allowed to visit the adult section of the library when we turned 13. That became my sex-ed:) Not to say I think YA fiction should be filled with sex for no reason - I don't. But if fiction can help satisfy natural curiosity in a positive way that seems preferable compared to graphic sexual images found on the 'net.
I definitely see your point, Michael and I do agree. I think the problem Begins when individuals differ on how much on the page sex is too much. Plus that age span from just 13-16 is so broad in their maturity and scope. But none of that should hinder finding ways to bring realistic portrayal of teen relationships to print. As we are here, we need to keep the dialogue going and continue to refine this genre.
Sammy Goode wrote: "I definitely see your point, Michael and I do agree. I think the problem Begins when individuals differ on how much on the page sex is too much. Plus that age span from just 13-16 is so broad in th..."I couldn't agree more.:)
Michael wrote: "At the library in my hometown, we were allowed to visit the adult section of the library when we turned 13. That became my sex-ed:) Not to say I think YA fiction should be filled with sex for no re..."It's interesting that when we have discussed this, the adult gay men in the group were the ones who pushed more for on-page sex in YA because they were the ones who felt unable to find anything other than silence or porn, to learn about gay sex as teens.
There are a lot of factors involved, book to book, publisher to publisher, and even legal jurisdiction to legal jurisdiction, on what is deemed okay for under-18s. But it is a sad indictment of sex ed in this country that fiction is still a more informative place for many teens than the health and sexuality classes they should be getting, and are not.
Oh Kaje, I could not agree more. As a nation we need A comprehensive overhaul of our sex ed program. Unfortunately, until legislators cease to use homosexuality as a reason to instill fear, we won't see that happen.
I see banning explicit sex from YA literature the same way I see schools banning the selling of junk food/soda—if they want it, they will just go elsewhere to get it. The site fanfiction.net is home to countless smut fics—stuff that's filthier than anything that Laurell K. Hamilton could ever dream up, and that website is just one of many.
I personally don't have a problem with it, if the author is weaving it into a fictional story in a way that fits in well with the rest of the story. I've seen some YA books that just throw in explicit sex scenes just to throw them in and stuff like that gets on my nerves because there's no development or realism in it, it's just porn. And if I wanted to watch two strangers have sex, I'd watch actual porn, not read YA.
Like I said though, that's just the kind of person I am. I'm a very open person especially when it comes to sex so stuff like that doesn't gross me out or weird me out; Mom and I even make jokes about it. Needless to say she's pretty happy I'm a lesbian though since that means no unexpected babies!
I wish more people could be as open as my family and I are about sex and stuff like that though...
Elizabeth♛ Everyone Else Has a Super Long Name With a Symbol So I Might as Well Do it Too♛ wrote: "I personally don't have a problem with it, if the author is weaving it into a fictional story in a way that fits in well with the rest of the story. I've seen some YA books that just throw in expli..."I do wish everyone would treat sex as another part of the human experience, not some big huge different thing that everyone prioritizes. I wish churches cared the same about your generosity as your sexual activity. I wish sex didn't come with a side order of ownership, and that open relationships and poly relationships and same sex and BDSM were widely acceptable as long as those in them were happy. I wish it was legal everywhere to sell sex between consenting adults who want to buy, and that the only sex crimes were force and exploitation.
But we still have a very dysfunctional attitude toward sex in society -- including the huge issue of sex trafficking and criminalization of adult sexual conduct. And as long as that persists, we also have to deal in litereature with how sex is used in our society, how it is owned, and who it stigmatizes. And therefore we can't happily let our kids wander into it at large, without any kind of guidance or care, IMO.
The Book Crusader wrote: "I see banning explicit sex from YA literature the same way I see schools banning the selling of junk food/soda—if they want it, they will just go elsewhere to get it.
The site fanfiction.net is h..."
There's a difference between banning and supplying though. The sex stuff is out there, definitely, just as junk food is. And yet, it delivers a different message if we continue to present other more-young-person-appropriate alternatives, or take off all restraints and willingly hand out whatever sells best. There is still some idea that - whether in food or in reading - what we present specifically to teens should have some desire to be appropriate or good for them.
The end point of "they can always get it so why not supply it", is the drug dealer's rationale. I'm not implying that explicit/erotic sex in fiction should equate to hard drugs, at all, but I believe that we shouldn't give up making judgments about what information we provide to teens, and simply let the marketplace make that call. That's abrogating a responsibility.
I want schools to ban junk food, or at least not to sell it - to convey the message that this is not a good choice, even if it's widely available. And I want YA authors to make real choices about what level of erotic content is appropriate to put in a book about and marketed to teens. (But the question of where to draw that line is where we all make a personal call, with the laws on child porn also weighing in.)
I want schools to ban junk food, or at least not to sell it - to convey the message that this is not a good choice, even if it's widely available. There's two huge problems with that train of thought:
(1) Banning something almost always makes the thing more appealing, especially to teens. In Order of the Phoenix, nearly every student at Hogwarts wanted to read Harry's interview in the Quibbler after Umbridge banned the tabloid.
(2) Banning something is not conveying that it is a bad choice; it is simply saying: "I'm deciding for you that this is for your own good."
If you truly wanted to convey that something was a bad choice, you would give the person(s) involved all the factually correct information they needed to see for themselves that it was a bad choice. In this case: by showing them studies about all the health complications that come with diets high in sugar, sodium, and saturated fat.
The end point of "they can always get it so why not supply it", is the drug dealer's rationale.
Except that drugs are illegal for everyone, Doritos and Little Debbies aren't. The only thing you'd be guilty of was providing empty calories, and even then, you didn't force anyone to buy or consume the product, nor did you mislead them into thinking your product was harmless—nutrition facts are there for a reason.
There is still some idea that - whether in food or in reading - what we present specifically to teens should have some desire to be appropriate or good for them.
I don't, and never will, follow this line of thought. While I can appreciate a
story as much as the next person, I can still remember my teenage years and all the "appropriate" and "educational" crap that I had to read in school. So when I was off the clock, you can better believe that my books of choice looked more like this:
than this:
I can also guarantee I wouldn't love reading—and as a result, writing—if it wasn't for books about not-so-good people making not-so-good decisions. Teens like their escapism just as much as adults do.
And I want YA authors to make real choices about what level of erotic content is appropriate to put in a book about and marketed to teens.
There will never be one answer to that. For instance, in the book:
there are (view spoiler) while the book:
has (view spoiler)Both are YA adult, deal with mature themes, and (view spoiler) yet still (view spoiler).
if we continue to present other more-young-person-appropriate alternatives, or take off all restraints and willingly hand out whatever sells best.
It is a safe bet that there will continue to be authors who will choose to go the "squeaky clean path" and treat teenage hormones as non-existent and have their teenage characters never venture past first base, such as the characters in the book:
Perhaps they will do that because they believe that playing it safe will keep them off the banned/challenged lists; perhaps they will do it because they hope to win a Newbery Award (I'm looking at you, David Lubar); or perhaps they just prefer that way of writing.
I myself would never publish anything I wouldn't want to read myself, and I also believe in accurate portrayals of teenagers—and that includes portraying them with hormones...and acting on said hormones. That's just the way I am, and I wouldn't change my way of writing for a 6 figure publishing deal.
Taking your points about junk food and drugs though - you're saying that "forbidden" makes something appealing but somehow "illegal" is a totally different thing? really? Nope. It's a continuum - and yes, hard drugs are the true endpoint of "supply whatever they want most, because they can always get it anyway." There is no hard dividing line. Alcohol is illegal for teens - lots of parents do supply it, on the grounds that they can always get it anyway... some even supply marijuana. Cigarettes. We are always making those choices, across the "not good for them" spectrum, and I see nothing inappropriate of making them with regard to food (or non-escapist books) in schools, or erotic content in reading. There is a difference between banning and supplying something. What we supply directly to teens should not be something we deeply do not want to be the choice of the teens we are serving. That shows a lack of ethical consistency. The marketplace does not get to make all the rules, in any situation where ethical choices are involved. (And while I don't think sex is "bad" I do think that teens would be better off having less sex and later sex, as a rule, with more awareness of consequences, not encouraged to have more.)
The other issue is labeling - we specifically have the New Adult label to use for books that have older-teen characters in them and erotic levels of sex. I'm not arguing that those books should not exist, but that they should not be labeled as YA. Young Adult should, IMO, have some substantive difference in quality from NA, and to me that's allowing sex-as-plot, but not sex-as-arousal, or violence-as-titillation.
You can totally write a story with teens having sex, and not do it in a way that makes it erotic. And that does not, IMO, in any way take away from the reality of the story. The plot is one thing, the style and intent are another, and under the author's control. I'd like to think that most people writing for teens would choose to add to their awareness of sex as it plays a part in life and relationships, not deliberately fan the hormonal flames with erotic intent. This is the equivalent of providing nutrition information - we show how sex-as-plot affects the lives of characters, without being additional erotic advertizing for how good it feels (of which they are already plenty aware.)
And so I want YA authors to not include scenes intended to be arousing, whether that would increase their readership or not. And, going back to your issues with legality, selling erotic material to teens is in fact illegal, in many places. So it once again is a matter of that continuum, and making appropriate choices about where to stand along it.
The Book Crusader wrote: "I see banning explicit sex from YA literature the same way I see schools banning the selling of junk food/soda—if they want it, they will just go elsewhere to get it. "Agreed.
People usually call me an old soul. When I was younger, around the age of 10-13, I began searching for information online because I couldn’t find anything publicly to answer my questions. When I’m asked whether I believe in censorship on any material, regardless of how much explicit information it contains, I will always answer: it depends on the point of view of the person.
My point of view, for example, is that explicit content shouldn’t be censored rather it should be explained. This way you can control the viewpoint of the person your teaching and give them a more mature understanding that keeps them safe/vigilant.
By censoring certain information, people can be hurt by either ignorance or curiosity. Ignorance by the fact they didn’t know what they were doing was “wrong”, and curiosity in-that they went to a different source of information (I.E. online) and learned false content that made their decisions incorrect and immature.
That’s just my point of view anyway, there’s always going to be different methods of doing something.
I find this requirement of lack of explicit content confusing, because when I was a teenager, people were sexually active from their mid teens. People here are falling pregnant from the age of 12. Wouldn't it be better to have the content with information about contraception, sexually transmitted diseases etc? If a writer just doesn't want to write sex scenes, that's fine, but censoring oneself out of some weird notions about teenagers "should" be exposed to seems misguided.
There are Prude teenagers out there too. people who rely on YA authors to produce clean books. not everyone is comfortable with sex. Too much explicit scenes would be a turn off. Kissing is Okay. and just saying they had sex without getting to gory detail is fine. But describing the act itself is a big no. And how they felt for paragraphs is TMI. well for ppl who need more than fluff, they have New Adult books...
YA LGBT Books
Books mentioned in this topic
Every Time I Think of You (other topics)Message of Love (other topics)
Every Time I Think of You (other topics)
Amy & Roger's Epic Detour (other topics)
The Boy Who Lost His Face (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
David Lubar (other topics)Laurell K. Hamilton (other topics)
Josh Lanyon (other topics)
Jordan Castillo Price (other topics)
Robin Reardon (other topics)
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Love her too, and I don't think she would ever do explicit either. But I could see something just a little further, another step or two into the relationships. But you won't catch me complaining about anything she has written.
(And I had an imagination too - had a whole m/m sequel to Thief written in my head ;)