SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
What Else Are You Reading?
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Anyone else NOT reading A Dance with Dragons yet?
message 201:
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Arun
(new)
Dec 21, 2011 02:21AM
I am just starting the series, with the game of thrones, completed 200 pages, mixed feelings.. lets see..
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mixed feelings?? mixed feelings!!! :O I would have said mixed feelings for a Feast for Crows. Now that was a tad too boring. But Game of Thrones...no way!
I read the first two books in the series and loved them. But then the wait between volumes became too much, and I was afraid of being Jordan-ized again (i.e. waiting 15+ years for a series to finish). So I haven't gone any farther.Of course, now that I've re-read all of the Wheel of Time this year and Memory of Light is finally coming out, maybe I'll break down and start over with Game of Thrones.
You were Jordan-ized the minute you paid money for one of his crappy books.
Stan wrote: "You were Jordan-ized the minute you paid money for one of his crappy books."Jordan has many obvious faults as a writer, but I certainly couldn't call him "crappy". How many authors could maintain or even grow an audience while waiting 20 years for a series to finish? I think there are many authors our there who could only wish to be so "crappy".
Good point Jim ^
Jim wrote: "Jordan has many obvious faults as a writer, but I certainly couldn't call him "crappy". How many authors could maintain or even grow an audience while waiting 20 years for a series to finish? I think there are many authors our there who could only wish to be so "crappy". There's a sucker born every minute.
It's hard for me to say who my favorite author is, but Jordan is at the bottom of the list. I only dislike Terry Goodkind more. I like Steven Erikson, Lev Grossman, George Martin, Glen Cook, Patrick Rothfuss, Gene Wolfe, Ursula Le Guin, Sherwood Smith, and Tolkien (of course).
Kat wrote: "Crappy is in the eye of the beholder, wouldn't you agree, Stan?Some things are just objectively bad. If you don't agree, I suppose you could always tug your braid in consternation.
;)
Kat, Have you ever seen that movie Neverending Story? Remember that scene in the bookshop where the little kid wants to read the mysterious book and tries to impress the old bookshop owner with all the books he's read? The owner responds by telling him that all those books the kid mentions are "safe."
Well, George Martin's books are not safe. Martin is good at making you care about his characters, even the supposed "bad guys," and then he lets very bad things happen to characters you care about. Central characters. Characters you love. Point of view characters. No one in Martin's world is safe. The first time I read A Game of Thrones, I threw the book across the room in horror about three quarters of the way through. I couldn't believe the choice the author had made. The book sat there for two weeks before I decided to trust Martin enough to finish the book. When I did pick it up again, a character that I liked and admired was dead. And not "I'm going to come back later as a wizard of a different color" dead. I knew for certain that I was no longer in Middle Earth. I haven't looked back since.
Steven Erikson is unsafe in the same way, only he's about 10 times better than Martin. I never distrust Erikson, and I always learn something from him. Whenever I put down one of his books, I look at the world in a different way.
As far as my opinion is concerned, of course I think my opinion is better than everyone else's! I'm here to convince you that you're all wrong, and I'm right. Is this your first time on the internet?
Sorry. I'm only kidding about that. I'm here to get another person in the world to hear my opinion, to maybe have someone see things through my eyes, to be known by someone outside my circle of friends and family, to debate anything and everything, to participate in the din of humanity. This is my barbaric yawp! Robert Jordan sucks!
As Whitman wrote:
"I CELEBRATE myself;
And what I assume you shall assume;
For every atom belonging to me, as good belongs to you.
[...]
You will hardly know who I am, or what I mean;
But I shall be good health to you nevertheless,
And filter and fibre your blood."
Stan,You've missed something very important. Some people want to read books that are "safe". Just because you don't doesn't make another person's choices less valid. Maybe their personal lives are in turmoil right now and they are reading to escape and for comfort.
To switch mediums for a second, I refuse to watch many movies that others love (mainly horror) because I will not sit through watching another person tortured or killed or raped for "fun". That doesn't make the movies I do watch have less merit.
The only time I would agree that calling a writer "crappy" is valid objectively would be if the accuser could furnish objective data showing the person is a poor writer: rotten grammar, repetitive adjectives, giant plot holes, logical fallacies, obvious lack of research/knowledge of the subject/location, and inconsistencies in his/her own storyline. Stephanie Meyer is a crappy writer because she meets most of the criteria above. In my opinion Lee Child is also crappy because he made it very apparent he has no idea how the military or the police work and repeated an impossible urban legend as truth in one of his books.
Here is why Robert Jordan is crappy. Fourteen years ago or so, he suckered me into buying several books I could not afford at the time (because I was a broke college student) in which absolutely nothing happened. As far as I'm concerned, that's the worst sin of all. I mean, come on, I ate ramen noodles so I could afford his books, and nothing happened.
Yes, but it's also Jordan's. You see, the first few books were pretty engaging. So he had hooked me, and after those I kept buying the next book to see if something, anything, would happen. I gave up after I finished the 8th book.I can still taste those fracking ramen noodles.
;)
You wouldn't if it's all you ate for months on end.
I did, I was in college once too :PStill like them :)
Stan wrote: "Yes, but it's also Jordan's. You see, the first few books were pretty engaging. So he had hooked me, and after those I kept buying the next book to see if something, anything, would happen. I gav..."I think that's probably a pretty standard assessment of the series. You quit right around the low point. The last 2 he wrote before his death were actually picking up the pace quite a bit, and the last couple finished with Sanderson are (IMO) every bit as good as the first few books.
It makes me wonder what would have happened if he'd had a co-writer (or even a much more active editor?) during the middle part of the series. He clearly wrote himself into a corner that he had a very hard time getting out of.
I love the Wheel of Time books. Nice to come in here and learn that I've been an idiot all this time.
Yep, I loved them too. I never felt like the story wasn't advancing, but then I like books and worlds with lots of depth. The side stories and character development are just as important to me as the giant problem/storyline. It's also more realistic. In real life you can't just skip forward to the conclusion.Just think how short Buffy the Vampire Slayer could have been if we hadn't gotten caught up in all the silly side stuff like fear of bunnies, worlds without shrimp, and mustard stains.
Chris wrote: "I love the Wheel of Time books. Nice to come in here and learn that I've been an idiot all this time."Nobody's perfect.
:)
Dawn wrote: "I did, I was in college once too :P
Still like them :)"
You're just weird
Still like them :)"
You're just weird
Chris wrote: "I love the Wheel of Time books. Nice to come in here and learn that I've been an idiot all this time."You're welcome. Is this a full-service group or what?
I'm reading A Storm of Swords at the moment. So no, I'm not reading A Dance with Dragons yet! :)
I liked the series until the fourth book. So, I haven't even thought about getting DoD. Now, I just figure I'll wait for HBO to catch-up. :)
I almost not finished book 1 and probably I will not read any of the others, I find him a poor writer, the villains are so BAD that it feels like a child writing... just in one book the villains comit incest, rape, infanticide, kill a nice wolf, a father, their father and so on.... and the heroes are the paragons of goodness... The history are slow paced, boring, the intrigues banal. I'm very sad that it has become a "must read" book. At least JKR knows that she made bad literature and at least the universe she writes in was an interesting one... (ok it is more Gaiman's and T.H. Lawrence universe)
Dwarf wrote: "I almost not finished book 1 and probably I will not read any of the others, I find him a poor writer, the villains are so BAD that it feels like a child writing... just in one book the villains co..."If you think all the bad guys are wholly bad and all the good guys are wholly good, then you haven't read enough of the series yet.
You will say that Tirion Lanister isn't so bad?I don't read enough of the series cuz the writer make a poorly job. I know it's a great selling book, but it is a terrible literature. Simple chars, simple plot. It's just sad.
Aside from Hodor, I wouldn't call the characters simple :P
Dwarf wrote: "Simple chars,simple plot."I think you may have read the wrong book.
Feel free to, Y'know, expand on that Chris.
Ala wrote: "Feel free to, Y'know, expand on that Chris."Naw, I think it sums it up. And I can tell when there's just bait for an argument that's pointless to have.
Dwarf wrote: "You will say that Tirion Lanister isn't so bad?I don't read enough of the series cuz the writer make a poorly job. I know it's a great selling book, but it is a terrible literature. Simple chars,..."
Suit yourself. However, I don't think anyone who writes "cuz the writer make a poorly job" has any business declaring what is and what is not terrible literature.
Sorry, but I'm not a native speaker of english. I will make a few mistakes like that and if you can help showing my mistakes I would apreciate.BTW I'm a dropout at the Letters bachelor, did almost all the course but had to quit (I was doing 2 bachelor degrees at the time, I've to dropout the Physics course 2) to work. So... I know a little of literature I can say a thing or 2 about the subject.
Stan wrote: "Suit yourself. However, I don't think anyone who writes "cuz the writer make a poorly job" has any business declaring what is and what is not terrible literature. "2 points to Stan. The characters are anything but simple. Maybe you missed some nuances of the writing since English isn't your first language?
/I hate the phrase "cuz". I'm not related to you. We're not bears playing banjos. I'd like to know what person added that abomination to the English language so I can beat them to death with a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary.
//Yes, I check my text messages for proper grammar.
Dwarf is entitled to his opinion. I was rather "meh" on the first book as well, but I gave Martin the benefit of the doubt and I think the second book is one of the best Fantasy novels I've ever read. (It's gotten pushed down the list a bit by The Warded Man.)Also, picking on someone's second language is poor form. I'll bet your Portuguese is a damn sight worse than Dwarf's English. Stick to ripping into idiot American kids who are too lazy to learn their own language, let alone a second one.
Trike wrote: "Dwarf is entitled to his opinion. I was rather "meh" on the first book as well, but I gave Martin the benefit of the doubt and I think the second book is one of the best Fantasy novels I've ever re..."If I had known Dwarf was a non-native English speaker, I wouldn't have said anything. With the use of "cuz," Dwarf seemed to be one of those idiot American kids you are talking about.
What Dwarf should realize is that the first Martin book is merely the exposition in a much larger, more complex plot structure. Dwarf doesn't realize yet that there is more to the characters than we see in the first book, and that many of them change significantly due to the events in the novels.
Neither the characters nor the plots are simplistic. Tyrion is not wholly bad. Jon Snow is not wholly good. Jaime is not wholly bad. Arya is not wholly good. Cersei is not totally bad. Danerys is not wholly good. Every character has his or her own complex motivations and system of morality that allows each character to justify his or her own actions.
Trike wrote: "Also, picking on someone's second language is poor form. I'll bet your Portuguese is a damn sight worse than Dwarf's English. Stick to ripping into idiot American kids who are too lazy to learn their own language, let alone a second one. "Who's picking on his second language? I'm the only one who posted after he told us that English was his second language, and I asked if maybe he missed the nuances. How is that picking on him?
Wasn't talking to you, Lara; it was aimed at Stan.One can tell when someone isn't a native English speaker from their sentence structure and word choice. Also, his bio says "Brazil."
Trike wrote: "Wasn't talking to you, Lara; it was aimed at Stan.One can tell when someone isn't a native English speaker from their sentence structure and word choice. Also, his bio says "Brazil.""
I apologize for not reading the bio before posting; however, I used to teach university composition courses before entering the publishing industry, and I can tell you that I have seen just about every sentence structure you can imagine written by native English speakers. There is one example that has stuck with me over the years. "The bathroom smelled not relevant to life." This was written by a Mississippi boy named Ralph (perhaps an appropriate name if you have ever watched The Simpsons).
I haven't gotten around to A Dance with Dragons yet. I loved the first three books, but was terribly annoyed with the fourth. At this point, I'm waiting until DwD comes out in paperback.
P. wrote: "I haven't gotten around to A Dance with Dragons yet. I loved the first three books, but was terribly annoyed with the fourth. At this point, I'm waiting until DwD comes out in paperback."I had the same reaction to the fourth book. A Dance with Dragons is better than the fourth book, but not quite as good as the first three. Waiting until it comes out on paperback is probably a good use of your money.
I have no intention of reading it, ever. This is one fantasy series I am avoiding; everyone I know didn't like it, citing how dark and depressing it was. If I want to read about good people getting betrayed, raped and killed without any hope shining through, I'll just pick up the newspaper or watch CNN, thanks.Fantasy is about escaping the world we live in. If it's too realistic, I don't consider it fantasy anymore, just fiction.
for some reason or another, i don't find it all that depressing. it still feels escapist to me; i jump right into that world. and there's enough good being done that i personally don't get that CNN feeling. but i know what you mean. i guess for me at least, just the fact that it is in a fantasy world makes all the various horrific shenanigans a bit easier going down.Stan wrote: "Cersei is not totally bad..."
cuz, Cersei Lannister is totally bad. ALL BAD! BAD CERSEI! what a great villain, one of my all-time favorites.
i wonder if i will be alive when the next book comes out. sigh.
First of all THX Tricke for the understanding. Second: Lara I didn’t miss any nuances… I missed some in Shakespeare and Joyce, but to be fair, the Mr. Martin books are very simple written. And I do use “CUZ” because its faster to write, like I use “#” instead the word “number” when I’m talking about Physics, and when I’m talking with friends (that one day I suppose some of you will be) and in one informal forum it just seemed right, for this mistake I do apologize.
Tird: I really don’t wanted to do what I’m doing right now.
I my first post I made a few statements “I find him a poor writer, the villains are so BAD that it feels like a child writing”
When a child writes it’s very firsts works it usually the char construction are like the MR. Martin Books, there are the good people and the bad people… the good people are hard workers have a kind heart need to face choices that you put the interests of others in front of his… but to be a tragic hero it accepts that with a word of understanding for his beloved ones and one stoic face for his enemies.
The tragic fate that befall the good ones are excuses to make war or any other dubious act. But they soon realize they made poor decisions and try to compensate or expiate theirs mistakes.
The bad ones are just a caricature, they are all that is bad in the words of this persons, in the contemporaneous occidental word, Incest, to kill a husband ,to make infanticide, to cheat, to kill some one, to kill a father, to rule without think in his subjects, to hit his wife, to hit a child, to kill one defenseless animal, greed to power. And so on… (eugenics I’ve to admit was pretty new) ohh I almost forgot, to give your sister for money and just if you are A woman to have pleasure in giving pleasure to your partner (yep we ,the occidentals ,are misogynists) and to pursue someone’s religion, to destroy his temples and in the last and most important the evil away carry in himself the way of his destruction.
They made EVERY singe one of these in just one book. They are the stereotypes of evilness
But lets look closer (you will excuse me if I can’t remember all the names of the chars)
Let’s begin with the good ones.
The father: he is grave, sincere, stoic, thinks in his family, never wanted to rule, are a fearless warrior but just , and took one bastard in his house the he says it is his but I suppose in the run of the books you will find a most noble and surprising birth. Love his friend and king and gave his life for the king.
The wife:The perfect spouse, comprehensive, and submissive, rules his house and love his children, when looses her husband endure in name of the kids, but she is one strong woman too and with her old, strong, a bit funny and respectful sidekick she goes in the rescue of her puppies. When she see that one of her boys are becoming a man she accepts gravely and feels a little alone but endure because the other kids need her strong.
The oldest son:He knows of his duties as a future ruler, are a great warrior, loves his family, don’t want to rule but knows his subjects and their needs, love his bastard brother, are fearless, made decisions that are good for the people but not for himself (the marriage) (but I suppose in the near future his wife or will be amorous or the marriage will never happen for some “unforeseen” motif, probably the father of the bride will betray them). Just a little before or a little after he won the war something will happen that will change everything (probably the daughter of the old dragon king will arrive) the old enemies will get together to face a new common enemy they will not be friends…but will endure a new understanding of the other.
The second son: the tragic one, he is a boy full of life and joy them he sees something that he should not and people try to kill him, his injuries incapacitate him and FORTUNLY he forgets what he saw (I suppose that amnesia is a very new plot). Now he is a tragic hero haunted by the things he saw and don’t comprehend and by the incapacitating wound he have. But he endures, he knows his duties now he is the man of the castle. He have to be strong for his mother and brothers and for his little brother that don’t understand but he also have dreams to be a knight and cry for it… but we all know that handicaps have super powers so he can enter in his wolfs minds and have a connection with the arcane. So the probably will develops in a knight that rides his dire wolf in battle but also in a man who have a different understanding of the word and if Mr.Martin pushes to far he will have spell like abilities too.
The younger son:The poor little boy, he doesn’t know what are occurring in his vicinities only knows that he is alone. He is lost and in the next book momy will have a little hard time to regain his trust back. The wolf protects him and probably it will have a main role in the future.
The older daughter The simple minded and pretty virtue, she believes in fairy tales, in love at first sight she can’t live in this cruel world, all the bad things she done she only made with her pure heart and now she have to endure these hard times to expiate her sins. But her kindness may soften a heart of a brute (the hound).
The younger daughter:The strong minded one, she likes to run and play with swords, but swords are a mans tool and she disguises herself to be accepted and them she proves that she are so good like any other man and gain the respect of theirs pals, in that time someone discovers her true identity and they face one problem to admit that she is good but a new problem arises and they need her skills to be free/alive so she gives it freely because she have a good heart. Now they accept her. She also make friendship with the righteous heir without him knowing his very destiny (that way she can love him without regrets… and she can be a tragic lady when he knows his heritage) also this point for true love (her) against the fake dreams that her sister believes.
The bastard:The anti-hero, he dresses in black (the stupider color to dresses in snow when you are in a army). Have a white and grave complexion (he is a tragic hero remember), he endures all hardships of his life with resignation, it’s hard but he will not let go his principles. Taught by a hard strong man he becomes to learn and to love his friends in the army to understand them. He is a fast thinking and nice soldier with a wolf that matches his name and his shadowy spirit. He is loyal and will not change his duty when he knew the true truth about his heritage.
The king The beloved stupid, booze driven, fat and careless. He loves the pleasures of the flesh and are a nice and good man.
Now the bad ones.
The king killer Traitor, narcissist, assassin, infanticide, incestuous do I forgot something? He betrays the dragon king, them he plots with his sister to kill the new king and to cuckold him. And he goes to fight and loses.Then, he does what his woman tells him to do (in occidental view a trace of weakness).
The queen: Beautiful and end evil, , narcissist, assassin, infanticide, incestuous do I forgot something? she have two faces, one amorous and charming one the other a ruthless and fearsome one. She makes intrigues all the time and lie. But she true loves her brother and for him she are a fragile woman.
The king heir A stupid and coward and spoiled child, he have beat by a little girl, lied about, kill for pleasure, don’t fight his own battles, have pleasure in others pains, beat the little girl who loves him and only made bad choices since become king.
The younger brothers: I think I remember about them… but I can’t even remember if they exist.
Tirion lanister The deformed dwarf, see I can’t even start this one… it’s very hard to see what people thinks about genius and it hurts a lot. He is just one of the most utilized stereotypes ever made, the ugly genius, longing to be loved, to be just like any other but always distant, put aside for his own family that can’t understand nor love him. He like every one who is intelligent beyond his own good don’t have morals don’t have problems to do bad things and only do the right because he see that can have some profit in the future.
The writers and moviemakers never understand one true intelligent being and so they put theirs fears and lack of knowledge in these chars, they always are stereotypes, bad and sad jokes about real people that have to hide about the knowledge they have, about the opinions they have … and for those who are asking why my nick name is “dwarf” I’m 1.80m tall and athletic, I’m called dwarf because in D&D I liked Dwarfs best and loved the Dwarfs in Tolkien.
The son of the Dragon king: One stupid spoiled child, self righteous and coward.
The daughter of the dragon king One poor girl that has to become strong to live the adversities. She can’t remember the old times and only knows the histories of her mad brother that sold her for one huge but nice savage that she tame and learn to love and in that way she can taste a little of happiness but again tragic events occur and she sees that she will have to endure again for the good of her people now that needs her. She will be a fearsome opponent but a worth one, and them the Ice creatures will true invade and the winter will come and she will have to work together with the others.
The books have all the rest of stereotypes, the coward fat one who are good at books, the masters who gives his life for the last and different student, the rag that make his son sick because super-protection, the old boyfriend that never forgot, the eunuch fat plotter, the gentle stupid giant, the masculine woman that wins battles against mans. The unaware heir, the black sheep but loving uncle…. and so on.
Now the construction of the book, why I disliked it? See there is a receipt for making best sellers some people use that, you can see in Sidney Sheldon, Dan Brown and many others works. You start the book presenting your chars in the day to day lives they have, if possible face some minor event that will approximate the reader with the char, then one event will change their lives and lead for the first climax that if possible will occur in the middle of the book letting a cliffhanger for the next part, the book slows down you knows one or two mysteries let in the first part them another event occurs and they are lead to the main climax in the end of the book, if you need another book just put another cliffhanger if not you just end right there or if the author have a need for a nice and good end it have a closing part. If you can use a little of sex, intrigues and blood it will help also.
Now just to end this.
I hate to do these things, one ex-girlfriend of mine used to say that I spoil the things, and today I believe in it.
Today I will make a few of you dislike a little one thing you liked. And it hurts me. Almost no one will read till the end of the post and will think that I’m just a moron. Others will read till the end and you mark any of my numerous mistakes and will point them in a attempt to prove that if I’m mistaken in one point OBVIOUSLY I’m wrong about EVERYTHING. I don’t have all the truth probably in my forecasts of the next things that will happen in the next books if I’m 30% right I would be glad. But there are a few in the few that will read that will think about that in the future and dislike a bit the things they liked... and it grieves me.
There is a thing that is very important to discern, there are a difference in the things I like and the things that are good. I like HP but I KNOW it’s a bad literature, and I dislike the Picasso’s cubist faze but I know it’s good and important. To like something don’t means that something is good, for heavens sake I like “Irish street punk” and I know it’s barely music. Do you think that this chars are complex? Read Hamlet, and say to me, he is a fool, a genius or a mad man? Cap. Nemo was a villain or a hero? The protagonist of Hermans Hesse’s “glass bead game” why did he died? Broader your horizons mostly of you just have read american books
very interesting, Dwarf. because i love the series, i also love such extensive contemplation of its characters. i enjoyed it, even if i disagree with much of your perspective.i will say one thing though, regarding your viewpoint that the "villains" are stereotypically evil: it is important (for me at least) to point out that they are "villains", not only because of their behavior, but more importantly... because we are seeing them and their behaviors through the eyes of people who are very unsympathetic towards them. one of the really fascinating things for me is how Martin uses perspective throughout the series. eventually, we see some of the "villain's" perspective... and they are not so villainous, not so black & white. and so the heroes (with perhaps the exception of Jon Snow) are also in many ways portrayed as not so heroic. that is the main thing i enjoy about this series... its ambiguity, its greyness, its subversion of stereotype & trope (with the exception of Jon Snow of course).
one thing, besides the point: i notice that you are trying to BOLD some of your phrases. you should be using <> instead of [].
Just an fyi, bbcode doesn't work here. It's html or nothing, so replace the brackets [ ] with these < > and you'll be fine.
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